Rebels ahsoka vs dooku (prime) canon (dueling only)

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Ieatnettles

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Who wins, what difficulty and why?

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Ieatnettles

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@cryolancer47 @pedrolopesmateus @wolfrazer @nassergrant19 @catman6@jedisympathiz3r @sunshinedobbs @supreme101 @ieatnettles @greysentinel365 @alextheboss @redsithdisciple @maulsmacker @frozen

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Greysentinel365

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Threads for this already exist @frozen

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/ahsoka-tv-series-vs-rots-count-dooku-2319195/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/ahsoka-tano-vs-count-dooku-2174328/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/ahsoka-tano-vs-count-dookudarth-tyranus-1779869/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/prime-ahsoka-ahsoka-d-vs-rots-dooku-2316344/

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frozen

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#4 frozen  Moderator

Ahsoka wins. She just scales higher and is clearly stronger. It’s taken a while for me to admit that though.

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Supreme101

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@frozen: semi held her own against Vader so it should have been obvious

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CatMan6

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@frozen said:

Ahsoka wins. She just scales higher and is clearly stronger. It’s taken a while for me to admit that though.

Is Maul>Dooku too now btw?

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frozen

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#7 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: semi held her own against Vader so it should have been obvious

Yeah.

@catman6 said:
@frozen said:

Ahsoka wins. She just scales higher and is clearly stronger. It’s taken a while for me to admit that though.

Is Maul>Dooku too now btw?

Rebels Maul? You can certainly argue it through raw scaling.

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gioppy37

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#8  Edited By gioppy37

Ahsoka high diffs imo

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Ruters

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@frozen said:

Ahsoka wins. She just scales higher and is clearly stronger. It’s taken a while for me to admit that though.

Really? I thought general consensus was that Ahsoka was sub-Dooku. What changed?

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#10 frozen  Moderator

@ruters said:

@frozen said:

Ahsoka wins. She just scales higher and is clearly stronger. It’s taken a while for me to admit that though.

Really? I thought general consensus was that Ahsoka was sub-Dooku. What changed?

I can only speak for myself here, but I just don’t see Dooku standing up to Vader in any capacity. Rebels Vader is so far above.

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dark_globe

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@frozen said:
@ruters said:

@frozen said:

Ahsoka wins. She just scales higher and is clearly stronger. It’s taken a while for me to admit that though.

Really? I thought general consensus was that Ahsoka was sub-Dooku. What changed?

I can only speak for myself here, but I just don’t see Dooku standing up to Vader in any capacity. Rebels Vader is so far above.

wasn´t it you who stated she was only "stalling" vader and not really "stand up to him" , when i argued
she as a mid tier character gave vader a pretty legit fight ?!
it seems you just have a hard time to admit OWK/rebels vader is nothing special ,
dooku can absolutely give him a hard fight
KFV destroys pre OT vader just like he did with dooku and so does sidious and yoda .

OP: dooku wins , ahsoka and maul are locked below him ,
heck they are even locked below IH kenobi let alone dooku .

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#12  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dark_globe:

it seems you just have a hard time to admit OWK/rebels vader is nothing special ,

OWK Vader beat Obi Wan, to the extent that Obi Wan needed an amp to win. KFV couldn’t beat Obi Wan.

There‘s minimal rustiness on Obi Wan’s part either, so that doesn’t work.

KFV destroys pre OT vader just like he did with dooku and so does sidious and yoda

KFV is stated to be sub OWK Vader and was matched by Kenobi. You can continue to repeat the “KFV stomps suit Vader“ shtick, but nobody is going to ever buy it. Your arguments are terrible and have repeatedly been debunked. Hence why they’re never taken seriously.

The Obi Wan blu ray also confirmed that ANH Obi Wan is > ROTS Obi Wan. So that’s another nail in the coffin for your PT wank.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ben-kenobi-confirmed-as-prime-obi-wan-steelbook-2340430/

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WarStars1977

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#13 WarStars1977  Online

Ahsoka was disarmed by the Magistrate in Mando. Dooku took on Ventress and two Dathomiran warriors while poisoned.

Is there any proof that Rebels Vader is a better duelist than Anakin?

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#14 frozen  Moderator
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MinhCake

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Dooku should take it after an excellent fight.

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KFVnegs

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Ahsoka takes comfortably, Dooku isn't lasting more than 10 seconds against Rebels Vader

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KFVnegs

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@frozen said:
@ruters said:

@frozen said:

Ahsoka wins. She just scales higher and is clearly stronger. It’s taken a while for me to admit that though.

Really? I thought general consensus was that Ahsoka was sub-Dooku. What changed?

I can only speak for myself here, but I just don’t see Dooku standing up to Vader in any capacity. Rebels Vader is so far above.

wasn´t it you who stated she was only "stalling" vader and not really "stand up to him" , when i argued

she as a mid tier character gave vader a pretty legit fight ?!

it seems you just have a hard time to admit OWK/rebels vader is nothing special ,

dooku can absolutely give him a hard fight

KFV destroys pre OT vader just like he did with dooku and so does sidious and yoda .

OP: dooku wins , ahsoka and maul are locked below him ,

heck they are even locked below IH kenobi let alone dooku .

OWK Vader is repeatedly stated above KFV and did far better against a version of Kenobi that is arguably stronger than MFK. Dooku got stomped by a version of Anakin inferior to KFV. Per the director OWK Vader is a far better combatant that Sidious and by extension Dooku. Ahsoka and Maul are anything but locked below Dooku

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Poedameronsbutt

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#19  Edited By Poedameronsbutt

Dooku Wins.

None of Ahsoka’s fights suggest she would win against the Master of Makashi. Hell, Her fight with Vader she Damn near died multiple times and only survived because She knew her Master’s Fighting techniques and his favoritism of the Djem so form + Ezra saved her. She was Far Quicker and more agile than Suited Vader who was fighting more like a machine than calculated attacks.

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The_Nitro

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Ahsoka wins if she really scales to Rebels Vader

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WarStars1977

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#21  Edited By WarStars1977  Online

Vader loses to Kirak- unknown timeline. Shortly after ROTS, let’s call it 20BBY. Young, getting used to his suit Vader. No big loss.

Vader beats Cere - 9BBY - she fights well, but Vader is ultimately too strong, though she almost kills him.

Vader loses to Obi Wan -9BBY- It’s relatively one sided with Obi Wan winning Obi Wan in sabers pretty much the entire time. He was weaker in Force before, but equal or stronger after the hole.

Vader beats Ahsoka -3BBY- She does well, but is relatively outmatched the entire time, though she does land a hit on him. This is really close to AHN, which is getting into prime Vader years. I’m not really sure what puts her on Vader’s level given this fight.

Vader beats Obi Wan - 0BBY - Old ass Obi wan is beaten in an embarrassingly terrible fight that poses a question of whether or not either were in (or close to) their prime.

Given the fights we have to work with, I don’t see anything that puts Ahsoka on Dooku’s level. Obi Wan and Dooku fought closely in sabers in ROTS. Anakin beat Dooku, and Obi Wan beat Anakin, but the context of those fights (the taunting by Dooku and Obi WAN’s familiarity with Anakin, and the “High Ground”), means that A holding their own against B means B is greater than C doesn’t work.

Kenobi didn’t posses a saber skill on Mustafar or in OWK that he didn’t have on the IH against Dooku. Him beating Vader in sabers is bad for Vader, not good for Obi Wan. Also, Rebels Ahsoka isn’t matching ROTS Anakin and Kenobi if you put her on Dooku’s place on the IH.

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#22  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@warstars1977:

Literally all of this has been debunked before… lol

Vader beats Cere - 9BBY - she fights well, but Vader is ultimately too strong, though she almost kills him.

Incorrect. Prior to the archives falling on him, Vader was force blasting her with casual gestures and smacking her around.

The devs re-affirm that he only gets serious after the archives: “and that’s when he gets serious”. Once they drop on him, he’s injured and performs worse

https://streamable.com/ahtue0

“It was a very clear decision from the start for him to only be using one hand with his lightsaber, where he’s kind of like, testing Cere out and he’s not sure and he’s not sure yet if he needs to take her seriously. And then you see after the archives come down on him, it’s two hands all the way after that. That’s when he gets serious”

Vader beats Obi Wan - 0BBY - Old ass Obi wan is beaten in an embarrassingly terrible fight that poses a question of whether or not either were in (or close to) their prime.

ANH Obi Wan in his prime. He scales above the post pit amped Kenobi and recent blu ray doubles down on ANH Ben being the prime iteration.

Given the fights we have to work with, I don’t see anything that puts Ahsoka on Dooku’s level. Obi Wan and Dooku fought closely in sabers in ROTS. Anakin beat Dooku, and Obi Wan beat Anakin, but the context of those fights (the taunting by Dooku and Obi WAN’s familiarity with Anakin, and the “High Ground”), means that A holding their own against B means B is greater than C doesn’t work.

Kenobi didn’t posses a saber skill on Mustafar or in OWK that he didn’t have on the IH against Dooku. Him beating Vader in sabers is bad for Vader, not good for Obi Wan.

Incorrect. Mustafar Obi Wan is above IH Obi Wan by a large margin, and matched with KFV. Mustafar Kenobi = Knightfall Vader, so Dooku is bound. It goes beyond stylistic matchup when Kenobi matches KFV in the force, in saberlocks and other physical struggles. Familiarity works both ways.

OWK Vader scales to or above KFV as a duelist. So he is locked above someone who is >> Dooku

Per Deborah Chow, he’s “in his prime” (up until that point in the timeline)

“It is essentially between these two huge iconic characters, that are in many ways equally matched and we have never kinda seen them in their prime meeting up like this”

There are more assertions of this:

Deborah wanted to have really visceral sense, when he’s walking down the street kind of killing people, she’s like “We’ve never really seen this side of Vader. He’s in his prime. He’s super angry, he’s just full of rage.”

Taking from my blog, Hayden equates Mustafar Vader and OWK Vader as being more or less the same here. He says “as it was explained to me” prior to saying Mustafar Vader > Jedi Anakin. And then goes on to equate MFV with OWK Vader, seemingly making no real distinction. In fact, he says that Vader is “more powerful now”:

Interviewer: How does a Jedi’s fighting style change when he goes to the dark side? Are the fighting styles different?

Hayden: Yeah I think they are a little different. As it was explained to me, when he goes to the dark side, his fighting skills go up a little bit. And he becomes a little bit more powerful. There was a decent amount of training on this one. And I got to work with the stunt team and learning some of the lightsaber fights and that’s always just a lot of fun. But yeah I mean yeah some good fights in this one

Interviewer: What was like the most surprising thing to find out about Darth Vader’s lightsaber style?

Hayden: Well um there is a lot that we already know about it and um we‘re certainly trying to keep things... relatively consistent, but this is Vader at a different point in his life and he’s... you know... more powerful now... more driven now and uhm and I think that comes through in his fighting style too. He’s very aggressive.

The pre pit duel is described as being a “continuation of” Mustafar, with the two in a “skill based stalemate”:

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Insider only serves to reinforce what Deb says:

Landing on the rocky surface of a barren moon, Obi-Wan is waiting for Vader when he arrives in his shuttle, and a bitter lightsaber duel begins. Their powers equally matched, each gains the upper hand until Vader leaves Obi-Wan for dead after burying him under tons of rock. Fighting not to be crushed, Kenobi focuses on Luke and Leia, and the memories give him the strength to escape and overpower Vader.

It is important to remind ourselves that Mustafar Kenobi is more skilled than Mustafar Vader, per many sources:

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Mustafar Anakin is more skilled than Sidious, as Sidious himself admits in the junior novel that MFV’s skills surpass any sith before him. Which includes Sidious himself

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The pre pit Kenobi in OWK is “back at his full powers again” and “in his prime” combatively. We know that Ewan has said he’s rusty and a bit older:

The actual fight itself was unbelievably well-designed and choreographed by [Jonathan Eusebio], our fight arranger. Beautifully, beautifully realized… So carefully thought about and he’d studied all the fights we’d done in the prequels and took Obi-Wan’s style into a place where… somebody who’s rustybut also older and just very well thought out. But it was hard."

But the rust is quantified as “not that much” per the choreographer, who attributes this as being what Deb told him.

“So I have the inbetween. So I can’t make them, um when we’re doing the stuff, and this is a credit to our director Deborah Chow too she’s very in tune with that stuff.

But um, y’know, I have to see how those guys fought in number 3 (Revenge of The Sith), because that’s like one of the most iconic fights ever in Star Wars right. Because you gotta see how they fight there because they won’t be that much different when you get to the inbetween (Obi Wan Kenobi series).

We see that when Vader starts the fight one handed, he’s able to briefly match a two handed Kenobi:

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"Vader sparks his own blade and attacks. The two of them fight in a clash of blue and red. Each skillfully parry erupts in a flurry of sparks. A view from overheard swirls around the heated combat. Obi Wan gymnastically tumbles away from his adversary and continues the battle from one knee. As their blades lock together he returns to his feet and tries to connect with a mighty lunge. The two of them briefly find themselves fighting back to back. Each spinning to try and gain the upper hand on the other."

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But Kenobi forces him to go on the defensive as Kenobi’s two handed grip > Vader’s one handed.

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By this point, Kenobi presses his offensive position. Many people say this is a bad look for Vader, but not really. Vader made the mistake of starting one handed, which cost him. Kenobi has strength close to KFV, and once he’s in the offensive, he presses it hard and doesn’t lose rhythm

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Even after Kenobi rams him back in saberlock, he has to out manaeuver Vader in the tight space by rolling around:

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We then see that Vader manages to get the offensive and presses it:

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Also recall that Deborah Chow implies they’ve been fighting for a very long time pre pit.

If left to their own devices, Chow thinks they can duel forever, much like Mustafar:

These two are pretty evenly matched. And throughout the fight it sort of ebbs and flows as to who has the upper hand. But you know, these are two guys who could just go on and fight to the death forever”

It’s essentially the ROTS duel again, but this time, “nobody can get the high ground”

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The actual on screen fight including off screen is 3 minutes, which is a long time. But with Deb’s implication and the quotes of it being a continuation of ROTS, it could be closer to the length of the ROTS fight. Which is closer to 8 minutes:

It’s worth noting that Mustafar Kenobi aka pre pit Obi Wan, is well beyond the likes of Dooku due to scaling with KFV. Read below:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/explaining-mustafar-obi-wan-disney-canon-2327677/

So Vader matching this Kenobi in duelling puts his force augmented stats much beyond the likes of ROTS Count Dooku

Kenobi then gets powered up, read here -

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/reconciling-and-explaining-the-post-pit-obi-wan-2325548/

While letting go Kenobi essentially mid diffs Vader, it’s not an easy mid diff. Vader can augment himself even further by tapping into rage briefly match this amped Kenobi in bladelock and even drive him back:

Case in point, Vader briefly matched him in saber-lock:

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After tanking the force push, then withstands the rock barrage and then drive Kenobi back by tapping into his reserves:

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Vader is able to briefly match him in blade-locks even after having his chest panel smashed:

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OWK Vader is simply way better than Jedi Anakin and even above KFV.

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WarStars1977

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#23  Edited By WarStars1977  Online

@frozen: I’m not really sure what to do with the wall of text and images you just sent me. Is this how Star Wars debates go?

You disagreed with my first point, but I’m not sure which point you disagreed with based on your response.

Did Cere not fight well? Was Vader not ultimately too strong? Did she not almost kill him?

Those are the three points I made in regards to the fight. Which part do you disagree with?

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Poedameronsbutt

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@warstars1977: The overwhelming amount of text and images that certain individuals reply with Blows me everytime. The point can always be summed up within far less lol. it’s just obnoxious.

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WarStars1977

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#25 WarStars1977  Online

@poedameronsbutt: Well, it was too much for me. The first point wasn’t even “debunked.”

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#26 frozen  Moderator

@warstars1977: The overwhelming amount of text and images that certain individuals reply with Blows me everytime. The point can always be summed up within far less lol. it’s just obnoxious.

I linked him a thread which directly addressed a lot of the points he then went on to make. That’s why I felt the need to post that.

@frozen: I’m not really sure what to do with the wall of text and images you just sent me. Is this how Star Wars debates go?

You disagreed with my first point, but I’m not sure which point you disagreed with based on your response.

Did Cere not fight well? Was Vader not ultimately too strong? Did she not almost kill him?

Those are the three points I made in regards to the fight. Which part do you disagree with?

You can read over my points I guess. Cere was losing badly to Vader prior to the archives. Per devs, Vader wasn’t going fully serious. Post archives he’s injured, hence the discrepancy in performance. So we have pre archives Vader slamming her and post doing a lot worse.

Besides I’m not sure why we are acting like the Cere fight means anything here? Dooku lost to Quinlan Vos. Vader was beating Cere until the archives fell.

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#27  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@poedameronsbutt: Well, it was too much for me. The first point wasn’t even “debunked.”

What part do you disagree with? I’ll break it down:

  • Prior to the archives falling on him, the devs regard Vader as “testing Cere” and not being serious. Yet he’s able to smack her around one handed and casually force blasts her with gestures
  • Once the archives fall on him, “that’s when he gets serious”. Meaning prior to that, he wasn’t serious
  • In the context of this injured Vader, she did well

Moreover, why is Cere relevant here? She has no link to Dooku. Cere becomes stronger leading into JS and has “let go of her fear”. This is akin to me saying Dooku isn’t an elite duelist because he lost to Quinlan Vos.

The difference here is that Vader was actually much above Cere. Whereas Dooku actually lost to Vos.

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Greysentinel365

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Dooku stomps.

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WarStars1977

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#29 WarStars1977  Online

@frozen said:
@warstars1977 said:

@poedameronsbutt: Well, it was too much for me. The first point wasn’t even “debunked.”

What part do you disagree with? I’ll break it down:

  • Prior to the archives falling on him, the devs regard Vader as “testing Cere” and not being serious. Yet he’s able to smack her around one handed and casually force blasts her with gestures
  • Once the archives fall on him, “that’s when he gets serious”. Meaning prior to that, he wasn’t serious
  • In the context of this injured Vader, she did well

Moreover, why is Cere relevant here? She has no link to Dooku. Cere becomes stronger leading into JS and has “let go of her fear”. This is akin to me saying Dooku isn’t an elite duelist because he lost to Quinlan Vos.

The difference here is that Vader was actually much above Cere. Whereas Dooku actually lost to Vos.

But what point are you disagreeing with? I said Vader was too powerful for Cere. She fought a good fight against a stronger opponent.

I listed Vader’s wins and losses. Given the fights, there is nothing that suggests that he is a better duelist than Anakin, especially since he lost to Kenobi in sabers this time where Anakin was pushing Obi Wan back The entire time.

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#30 frozen  Moderator

@warstars1977:

what point are you disagreeing with? I said Vader was too powerful for Cere. She fought a good fight against a stronger opponent.

He was injured by the archives. That’s why did well. Otherwise, a Vader who isn’t serious per devs was smacking her around.

I listed Vader’s wins and losses. Given the fights, there is nothing that suggests that he is a better duelist than Anakin,

No? I literally just gave you a very thorough and detailed analysis as to why he’s much better than Anakin. I cited sources too. Your response is to just ignore it because it’s too long?

The makers of Obi Wan series repeatedly say he’s in his prime and scales to/above Knightfall Vader. Therefore he is >> Jedi Anakin. “Jedi Anakin” barely has any hype in Disney. He isn’t Yoda tier.

especially since he lost to Kenobi in sabers this time where Anakin was pushing Obi Wan back The entire time.

No, he lost to an amped Obi Wan. Prior to that, he’s stated to be equally matched with Kenobi in sabers.

A New Hope Ben is also stated to be his prime iteration, and Vader was winning against him. A New Hope Obi Wan slaps Knightfall Vader.

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#31  Edited By WarStars1977  Online
@frozen said:

@warstars1977:

what point are you disagreeing with? I said Vader was too powerful for Cere. She fought a good fight against a stronger opponent.

He was injured by the archives. That’s why did well. Otherwise, a Vader who isn’t serious per devs was smacking her around.

No argument here still.

I listed Vader’s wins and losses. Given the fights, there is nothing that suggests that he is a better duelist than Anakin,

No? I literally just gave you a very thorough and detailed analysis as to why he’s much better than Anakin. I cited sources too. Your response is to just ignore it because it’s too long?

I mean…it was pretty long. Am I suppose to read and respond to every point?

The makers of Obi Wan series repeatedly say he’s in his prime and scales to/above Knightfall Vader. Therefore he is >> Jedi Anakin. “Jedi Anakin” barely has any hype in Disney. He isn’t Yoda tier.

It’s a great statement. How much weight is there for creator statements? Are they absolute? Obi Wan is sloppy at the beginning fight of Kenobi. He leans in too far, he isn’t balanced, and he looks nothing like his fight with Anakin in Revenge.

especially since he lost to Kenobi in sabers this time where Anakin was pushing Obi Wan back The entire time.

No, he lost to an amped Obi Wan. Prior to that, he’s stated to be equally matched with Kenobi in sabers.

How much weight do the statements have versus what’s on screen? Obi Wan is attacking, which is opposite of his mastered form, and opposite of what he did on Mustafar. So him pushing Vader back is significant. The guy hasn’t picked up a lightsaber in a decade, right?

A New Hope Ben is also stated to be his prime iteration, and Vader was winning against him. A New Hope Obi Wan slaps Knightfall Vader.

A New Hope Ben is prime in sabers? I could see him being prime in Force power, but sabers is saying a lot. He can barely move in his fight against Vader.

I guess my question is what’s more important: What the creators say or what they show?

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#32  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@warstars1977:

I mean…it was pretty long. Am I suppose to read and respond to every point?

You don’t have to respond to it all… but you’re saying stuff that I’ve thoroughly addressed. Such as Vader vs Jedi Anakin or Vader vs Obi Wan. You should read it because it goes over everything.

It’s a great statement. How much weight is there for creator statements? Are they absolute? Obi Wan is sloppy at the beginning fight of Kenobi. He leans in too far, he isn’t balanced, and he looks nothing like his fight with Anakin in Revenge

It is better to take creator statements over eyeballing choreograph and making our own assumptions. Creator statements affirm the truth of the matter. Obi Wan is back to full power at the start of the fight and has minimal amounts of rustiness. The choreography not being up to standard doesn’t mean he’s nowhere near as good as before. Choreography isn’t really an argument.

How much weight do the statements have versus what’s on screen?

Statements clarify the true intent. Opposed to fans making up what they think.

Obi Wan is attacking, which is opposite of his mastered form, and opposite of what he did on Mustafar.

Obi Wan choosing to fight offensively was very much intentional on his part. His mindset was completely different and he baited Vader by initially adopting the form III Soresu stance, but then shifting to form IV Ataru, which surprised him.

I recognise you don’t want me to spam you with an essay, so I suggest you read the blog I wrote which specifically addressed why Obi Wan fought differently.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/explaining-pre-pit-obi-wan-vs-vader-and-how-it-com-2332849/

So him pushing Vader back is significant.

Addressed on the link above.

The guy hasn’t picked up a lightsaber in a decade, right?

Again, he’s barely rusty. Repeatedly stated by choreographers and others.

A New Hope Ben is prime in sabers? I could see him being prime in Force power, but sabers is saying a lot.

He is stated better in the Obi Wan blu ray and scales above his amped self. He is prime in sabers AND force power. See below.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ben-kenobi-confirmed-as-prime-obi-wan-steelbook-2340430/

He can barely move in his fight against Vader.

Again, using old choreography isn’t a viable metric.

I guess my question is what’s more important: What the creators say or what they show

Creators clarifying the true intent will always be > subjective interpretations of choreography.

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dark_globe

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@warstars1977: The overwhelming amount of text and images that certain individuals reply with Blows me everytime. The point can always be summed up within far less lol. it’s just obnoxious.

@poedameronsbutt: Well, it was too much for me. The first point wasn’t even “debunked.”

it seems to me frozen is a type of guy who likes to listen to himself talk .
he takes various points from various creators
(many of which are not even that credible or feasible in the grand scheme of things
-some of those disney clowns ("creators") have no idea what they are even talking about
while trying to power scale some characters or they don´t really know how to answer a question from the interviewer
so they quickly come up with some bullshit answer on the spot just for the sake of saying something
and this guy follows it like their word is some ancient wisdom because "statements"
-sometimes their words contradict the choreography of their own shows which is hilarious
not to mention their own CEO pretty much destroyed SW)

he then puzzles those more or less credible pieces together in the way he deems fit or most plausible to him and
creates his own (subjective) point of view which he deems to be the new gospel of star-wars everybody should follow .
some of his views may shift over time depending on what new material or "statement"
he reads and how he interprets it at that time .

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@frozen said:

@dark_globe:

it seems you just have a hard time to admit OWK/rebels vader is nothing special ,

OWK Vader beat Obi Wan, to the extent that Obi Wan needed an amp to win. KFV couldn’t beat Obi Wan.

There‘s minimal rustiness on Obi Wan’s part either, so that doesn’t work.

KFV destroys pre OT vader just like he did with dooku and so does sidious and yoda

KFV is stated to be sub OWK Vader and was matched by Kenobi. You can continue to repeat the “KFV stomps suit Vader“ shtick, but nobody is going to ever buy it. Your arguments are terrible and have repeatedly been debunked. Hence why they’re never taken seriously.

The Obi Wan blu ray also confirmed that ANH Obi Wan is > ROTS Obi Wan. So that’s another nail in the coffin for your PT wank.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ben-kenobi-confirmed-as-prime-obi-wan-steelbook-2340430/

once again statements mean little for suit vader if he fails to live up to the hype in pretty much every single fight
he has been in since he was put into his suit .
(as was also already adrressed by others in this thread and by me on multiple other threads)
vader frequently gets into prolonged fights VS mid tier character - your defense is either he is not going all out or trying to upscale said characters (to titan or above levels) which is ridiculous .
once again if suit vader is >> titans he should be hand waving characters like ahsoka , cere , kirak , karbin ..etc

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Ahsoka wins if she really scales to Rebels Vader

scaling to rebels vader is nothing special to be honest .
if you take away overhyped meaningless statements pre ESB vader is dooku level .

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#36  Edited By Ieatnettles
@dark_globe said:
@frozen said:

@dark_globe:

it seems you just have a hard time to admit OWK/rebels vader is nothing special ,

OWK Vader beat Obi Wan, to the extent that Obi Wan needed an amp to win. KFV couldn’t beat Obi Wan.

There‘s minimal rustiness on Obi Wan’s part either, so that doesn’t work.

KFV destroys pre OT vader just like he did with dooku and so does sidious and yoda

KFV is stated to be sub OWK Vader and was matched by Kenobi. You can continue to repeat the “KFV stomps suit Vader“ shtick, but nobody is going to ever buy it. Your arguments are terrible and have repeatedly been debunked. Hence why they’re never taken seriously.

The Obi Wan blu ray also confirmed that ANH Obi Wan is > ROTS Obi Wan. So that’s another nail in the coffin for your PT wank.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ben-kenobi-confirmed-as-prime-obi-wan-steelbook-2340430/

once again statements mean little for suit vader if he fails to live up to the hype in pretty much every single fight

he has been in since he was put into his suit .

(as was also already adrressed by others in this thread and by me on multiple other threads)

vader frequently gets into prolonged fights VS mid tier character - your defense is either he is not going all out or trying to upscale said characters (to titan or above levels) which is ridiculous .

once again if suit vader is >> titans he should be hand waving characters like ahsoka , cere , kirak , karbin ..etc

This is my thread, but said "mid tier" characters scale up to Vaders level. They have nothing suggesting otherwise.

Ahsoka scales up, cere kind of scales up, kirak fought Vader one day after he got his suit lol, and Karbin was getting trashed until he cheap shotted him

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The_Nitro

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@dark_globe: Except the part that KS Vader already defeated Pre Pit Kenobi who is Relative to MFK Who would Slam Dooku

So no Ahsoka has solid Scaling

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WarStars1977

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#38 WarStars1977  Online

@frozen: So, I read much of your post, but one piece that fell apart was you recent statement above about choreography. They said they studied the choreography of past duels thoroughly, so Vader being pushed back by a “rusty” Kenobi is very telling about Vader’s dueling capabilities.

Kenobi isn’t “better than ever” at the beginning of the fight. He had to be at his best to contend with Anakin on Mustafar, and even then he was pushed back the entire time until he “got the high ground.”

The fact that he is pushing Vader back means that Vader isn’t as good as Anakin in Revenge, unless you’re saying a slightly rusty Kenobi is better than Revenge Kenobi.

Also, Chow saying, “we haven’t seen them both in their prime,” is horribly stupid and arrogant, given their fight in Revenge. Vader maybe is in his prime, but there is no way you can argue Kenobi is at the beginning of the fight. Perhaps she is talking about the end of the fight. That makes sense.

A. Kenobi fought for his life the entire time on Mustafar, essentially trying not to get his head cut off.

B. Vader is fighting for his life in Kenobi, essentially trying not to get his head cut off.

C. Kenobi was better in Revenge than he was in Kenobi. (At least this holds true for the first part of the fight.)

D. Vader cannot possibly be as good in Kenobi as he was in Revenge. Maybe stronger in the force, but not in sabers.

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@dark_globe: " Vader gets into prolonged fights with other "

No he doesn't , He stomped cere in like 2 second the first time In JFO And then stomped her in 4 seconds the second time + He stomped Cal as well

In Jedi Survivior He was bullying Cere around and is able to pull Cere towards her self like a magnet and cere is helpless to do any thing ( and that is a toying Vader who dose that )

Vader was stated to be just getting used to his suit and is not used to have the mechanical arms and legs so he is hindred + He was unarmed while Kirak had a lightsaber , You can't use that to downscale Vader.

Karbin was defeated easily and there was no contest + The scan that frozen sent proves it .

Upscales Ahsoka lol .

" etc " People usually say that when they run out of Examples.

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@warstars1977: Kenobi's is only a " bit-Rusty" .

I genuinely don't see your point ? Vader was clearly superior to him and he never got " Outskilled " He only got staggered by Kenobi's strong Strike that , It would count at Kenobi's Great physical strength not his skill.

MFK Had to be on his best to face Anakin but he wasn't Per many sources while MFV wasn't holding back he wasn't conflicted... he had no reason to Keep Obi Wan alive and yet he he didn't exactly have a advantage over Obi wan , Per many sources They were Equals lol so this isn't a good look for MFV Either .

The fact is that Vader was never getting pushed by Kenobi , he won fair and square and he even landed a fist on Obi wan , Unlike Obi wan who was unable to damage Vader . And even all of this doesn't matter Because Debora said that Pre Pit Kenobi and Vader are " Evenly Matched " .

A.Obi Wan wasn't exactly at his best on MF many sources back this up ,

B.Can you prove that ?

C.MFK Only holds a Slight skill advantage over Pre Pit Kenobi , Nothing more

D.debunked

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#41 WarStars1977  Online

@warstars1977: Kenobi's is only a " bit-Rusty" .

I genuinely don't see your point ? Vader was clearly superior to him and he never got " Outskilled "He only got staggered by Kenobi's strong Strike that , It would count at Kenobi's Great physical strength not his skill.

This is blatantly false. Obi Wan makes Vader miss multiple times in the first part of the fight.

Obi WAN’s strong strike occurs against a Vader who is holding his saber with both hands, and it is BEFORE the acknowledgment that his strength had returned. So regular old rusty Kenobi staggered Vader. This caps Vader at or below Revenge Anakin. I don’t remember Obi ever staggering Anakin on Mustafar.

MFK Had to be on his best to face Anakin but he wasn't Per many sources while MFV wasn't holding back he wasn't conflicted... he had no reason to Keep Obi Wan alive and yet he he didn't exactly have a advantage over Obi wan , Per many sources They were Equals lol so this isn't a good look for MFV Either .

Are there sources that say Obi Wan was conflicted On Mustafar? That would take Anakin down since he wasn’t able to beat a conflicted Obi Wan while he himself is unconflicted.

The fact is that Vader was never getting pushed by Kenobi , he won fair and square and he even landed a fist on Obi wan , Unlike Obi wan who was unable to damage Vader . And even all of this doesn't matter Because Debora said that Pre Pit Kenobi and Vader are " Evenly Matched " .

Isn’t this after Kenobi failed to crush Vader with the rock?

Deborah’s statement is fine, but that puts Kenobi Vader at Revenge Kenobi level, right? That’s who he is fighting.

A.Obi Wan wasn't exactly at his best on MF many sources back this up ,

Prove it.

B.Can you prove that ?

Kenobi pushing him back, staggering him, and Vader is fighting with both hands.

C.MFK Only holds a Slight skill advantage over Pre Pit Kenobi , Nothing more

Kenobi in Kenobi being rusty at all and pushing Vader back is a bad look for Vader since Anakin had no trouble with an in form Kenobi, no rusty Kenobi.

D.debunked

Not even close. Your arguments essentially make Vader worse. If Kenobi in Revenge is even an iota better or equal to Kenobi in Kenobi, then Vader cannot be better than Anakin.

Anakin controlled the fight in Revenge the entire time. Vader didn’t in Kenobi.

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KFVnegs

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@warstars1977:

This is blatantly false. Obi Wan makes Vader miss multiple times in the first part of the fight. Obi WAN’s strong strike occurs against a Vader who is holding his saber with both hands, and it is BEFORE the acknowledgment that his strength had returned. So regular old rusty Kenobi staggered Vader. This caps Vader at or below Revenge Anakin. I don’t remember Obi ever staggering Anakin on Mustafar.

Vader only missed strikes in a closed space where he can't perform as well as in an open field due to his suit making him less agile. Vader acknowledging Kenobi's strength is due to him being able to stagger him for a brief moment. However people already explained to you (and you keep ignoring them) that Kenobi switched forms mid fight which Vader didn't expect. After Vader overpowers him in the force clash, he immediately gets the upper hand and tags him with a punch while out strengthening him by holding his blade above his head. Kenobi (like you were told many times) is barely rusty and the rustiness is never stated to affect his performance. The director affirms Kenobi being in his prime overall in the beginning of the fight during multiple interviews. Their fight is stated to be a continuation of Mustafar without the high ground, there is unmatched intensity between them and they are equally matched in combat. So no this doesn't cap Vader below Anakin, he was only driven back in a closed space and due to the fact Kenobi switched to offense, he is well beyond Anakin in the force and can augment himself far higher and is equally matched in combat with a Kenobi who is basically on MFK's level, who in return has been stated numerous times more skilled than MFV.

Isn’t this after Kenobi failed to crush Vader with the rock?

No it's referring to the beginning of the fight.

Deborah’s statement is fine, but that puts Kenobi Vader at Revenge Kenobi level, right? That’s who he is fighting.

Vader in the first part of the fight is equally skilled and equally capable with a lightsaber as MFK, which is slightly above MFV. However, after Kenobi receives a massive amp to overpower him in the second round, Vader is at times able to match him in strength and even out strengthen him in blade locks even when damaged (as Frozen provided), meaning he can augment himself far further than what he showed pre pit. Not only is he slightly more skilled than Anakin, he is well beyond in the force and way better in overall combat.

Kenobi pushing him back, staggering him, and Vader is fighting with both hands.

Already addressed everything above.

Kenobi in Kenobi being rusty at all and pushing Vader back is a bad look for Vader since Anakin had no trouble with an in form Kenobi, no rusty Kenobi.

Kenobi pushed Vader back because of the form he used and the environment that surrounded them, in contrast to the Mustafar battle where Kenobi was purely on the defensive since the beginning and was able to match Anakin's strength multiple times. It's ignorant to keep referring to Kenobi as "rusty" when the choreographer said it's only a bit and it doesn't affect his performance. Any minimal skill gap is replaced by superior force augmentation anyway.

Not even close. Your arguments essentially make Vader worse. If Kenobi in Revenge is even an iota better or equal to Kenobi in Kenobi, then Vader cannot be better than Anakin.

He can though? I already explained why Kenobi in the KS is arguably better than on Mustafar given the descriptions provided by the director and IUs. I also explained why Vader being pushed back isn't a bad look for multiple reasons. Anakin wasn't "better" than MFK either seeing how they are constantly stated equally matched in all categories with some saying MFK is more skilled.

Anakin controlled the fight in Revenge the entire time. Vader didn’t in Kenobi.

Anakin only "controlled" the fight due to him being on the offensive. Let's not act like Kenobi didn't almost decapitate him at least twice and didn't perfectly counter all his strikes. And like said earlier, Vader also took complete control over the fight after the force clash and ended up burying Kenobi alive a few seconds after tagging him.

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Dooku should win comfortably

Briefly holding off a pre prime Vader (while being driven back) isn’t as good as Dooku holding off Yoda, or holding off Anakin and Kenobi at once, or stalemating Windu etc. He’s just a better duellist in my opinion.

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@macattack1: She survived against post Knight Fall Vader .... Something Dooku could never do

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@macattack1: She survived against post Knight Fall Vader .... Something Dooku could never do

You don't need to be as strong as vader to survive against him. Any character can survive against fall vader when plot demands.

Dooku wins

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#46  Edited By macattack1

@ancient_0f_days: I don’t see rebels Vader as being massively above KFV in terms of pure duelling. What Ahsoka did in delaying him for a bit is something I can see Dooku at least replicating, especially since Ahsoka is familiar with Anakin so likely did better than she ‘should’ have.

Add to that the fact that this is Ahsoka’s only good feat whereas Dooku has a plethora at least as good if not better and yeh, Dooku is better.

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#47  Edited By KFVnegs

Dooku should win comfortably

Briefly holding off a pre prime Vader (while being driven back) isn’t as good as Dooku holding off Yoda, or holding off Anakin and Kenobi at once, or stalemating Windu etc. He’s just a better duellist in my opinion.

Do you realise how large the gap between AOTC Yoda or the IH duo and Rebels Vader is? Vader is vastly superior to DS Anakin who beat Dooku in seconds. Ahsoka being able to hold him off even for a bit is far better than what Dooku achieved vs Anakin

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@the_nitro said:

@warstars1977: Kenobi's is only a " bit-Rusty" .

I genuinely don't see your point ? Vader was clearly superior to him and he never got " Outskilled "He only got staggered by Kenobi's strong Strike that , It would count at Kenobi's Great physical strength not his skill.

This is blatantly false. Obi Wan makes Vader miss multiple times in the first part of the fight.

Obi WAN’s strong strike occurs against a Vader who is holding his saber with both hands, and it is BEFORE the acknowledgment that his strength had returned. So regular old rusty Kenobi staggered Vader. This caps Vader at or below Revenge Anakin. I don’t remember Obi ever staggering Anakin on Mustafar.

MFK Had to be on his best to face Anakin but he wasn't Per many sources while MFV wasn't holding back he wasn't conflicted... he had no reason to Keep Obi Wan alive and yet he he didn't exactly have a advantage over Obi wan , Per many sources They were Equals lol so this isn't a good look for MFV Either .

Are there sources that say Obi Wan was conflicted On Mustafar? That would take Anakin down since he wasn’t able to beat a conflicted Obi Wan while he himself is unconflicted.

The fact is that Vader was never getting pushed by Kenobi , he won fair and square and he even landed a fist on Obi wan , Unlike Obi wan who was unable to damage Vader . And even all of this doesn't matter Because Debora said that Pre Pit Kenobi and Vader are " Evenly Matched " .

Isn’t this after Kenobi failed to crush Vader with the rock?

Deborah’s statement is fine, but that puts Kenobi Vader at Revenge Kenobi level, right? That’s who he is fighting.

A.Obi Wan wasn't exactly at his best on MF many sources back this up ,

Prove it.

B.Can you prove that ?

Kenobi pushing him back, staggering him, and Vader is fighting with both hands.

C.MFK Only holds a Slight skill advantage over Pre Pit Kenobi , Nothing more

Kenobi in Kenobi being rusty at all and pushing Vader back is a bad look for Vader since Anakin had no trouble with an in form Kenobi, no rusty Kenobi.

D.debunked

Not even close. Your arguments essentially make Vader worse. If Kenobi in Revenge is even an iota better or equal to Kenobi in Kenobi, then Vader cannot be better than Anakin.

Anakin controlled the fight in Revenge the entire time. Vader didn’t in Kenobi.

" This is blatantly false. Obi Wan makes Vader miss multiple times in the first part of the fight. "

Address those times Please.

"Obi WAN’s strong strike occurs against a Vader who is holding his saber with both hands, and it is BEFORE the acknowledgment that his strength had returned. "

I don't see how Vader acknowledgment on Kenobi's power effects anything and also Strength here refers to overall Combative ability.

" So regular old rusty Kenobi staggered Vader. "

Being old has nothing to do with Combative ability, Yoda was old and yet he was one of the most powerful jedi of his generation, same goes for dooku

ROTJ Palpatine is also old and yet he would fingerlick PT. Obi Wan was only a bit rusty and so His rust is minimal, meaning it's not a huge gap at ALL .

" i don’t remember Obi ever staggering Anakin on Mustafar."

Then I suggest you re-watch the fight : https://youtu.be/S3OtoO5zjjU?si=llQ0wTFHbGCZa9G4 , Obi wan staggers anakin at 2:20 so hard that Anakin is helpless on the table and obi wan goes for the strike.

Sure there are :

No Caption Provided

ROTS junior novelization.

But you know what ? I'm going to ignore this scan just to help your argument .

" Isn't this after kenobi failed to crush Vader with a rock ?"

How would that be relevant?

"Deborah’s statement is fine, but that puts Kenobi Vader at Revenge Kenobi level, right? That’s who he is fighting."

Not Really , MFK Tried to Force Push MFV And then they were matched and then they were blasted away , so it's safe to say that MFK = MFV In Force Power

Pre Pit kenobi also tried to Crush Vader with the rock but Vader easily Pushed away the rock and proved his superiority in force power against Pre Pit kenobi

And btw Pre Pit Kenobi = MFK In force power

So we Can make a this scaling chain for force power : KS Vader > Pre Pit Kenobi = MFK = MFV . As for Dueling and skill I must inform you that They were Evenly Matched per Debora and other statements. And MFK Is more skilled than MFV anyways so Pre Pit Kenobi is might as well be = MFV Considering the fact that MFK is stated to be more skilled than MFV And Pre Pit kenobi is only a bit rusty

A. ALREADY Sent the Scan . But as i have told you , I will ignore it to help your argument

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

B. Using two hand doesn't mean anything, Vader used both of his hand during his fight with Cere in Jedi: Survivior and yet we know that he wasnt serious about the fight , Vader staggered Kenobi as well so .... . And no Kenobi didn't push him back and Vader didn't push Kenobi back either . Neither side could get the "high ground " as Deborah says so Kenobi and Vader are equally matched and none can get an advantage over the other , the scans that I just sent above proves this . And one of them states that Kenobi and Vader's strikes are all getting evaded or parried by Eachother .

C. Kenobi is a " Bit-Rusty" and that much . And no Kenobi didnt control the fight the scans I just sent + Debora's own word proves that they are equally matched

Vader In OBW Series is Equally matched with pre Pit Kenobi skill wise

Vader is also superior to Pre Pit kenobi in terms of force power , pre Pit is equal to MFK force power wise who is equal to MFV In a force clash and I have already explained why . KS Vader > Pre Pit kenobi = MFK = MFV Force power

In terms of skill, many scans proves that Kenobi is more skilled than MFV

So MFK > MFV In terms of skill ... and Pre Pit Kenobi is only a bit Rusty and yet he was matched By KS Vader . In the end we would have

MFK=> Pre Pit kenobi = KS Vader = MFV . So in the end KS Vader is equal with MFV And is superior to him in force .

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#49  Edited By ah_I_am_Zeta

@the_nitro: To add to your collection, Insider and Deborah Chow also stated pre pit Kenobi and Vader evenly matched.

”Landing on the rocky surface of a barren moon, Obi-Wan is waiting for Vader when he arrives in his shuttle, and a bitter lightsaber duel begins. Their powers equally matched, (...) ” - Star Wars insider.

These two for me, were very evenly matched and I don’t think there is anyone else that would have a chance with either of them. So this is like watching two titans finally going at it” (talking about pre pit) - Kenobi Show blu-ray.

Kenobi is at his full powers as well, as reaffirmed in the blu-ray documentary :

“But when we first started shooting them, you know, that fight, It was so satisfying to see Obi-wan stepping up again, and you know, having sort of regained his power. (...)" - Deborah Chow [Then Chow explains how they gradually brought him back from his guilt and initially blocked spirituality, etc]

Here's the full scan : Watch unnamed | Streamable.

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