Nightwing. Ravager might be physically enhanced, but not to the level of her father. In turn, she may not physically outclass Nightwing, but only be physically enhanced past that of a normal woman of her size, height, and weight. I say this because genetically, men are physically stronger, faster, and more durable than woman are. So, the peak of human potential between both men and women are drastically different. If both are physically enhanced in the same manner, the woman is still weaker. Perfect example, Captain America and Black Widow. Captain America is physically enhanced past that of the peak human potential. Black Widow's physical enhancements have her past that of a woman's peak, but nowhere close to Captain America (I think she maxes out at 500 lbs. of lifting strength). Ravager's strength, however, is undefined. But, I'm pretty sure she's stronger than that of a normal man that does little to moderate exercise.
In Nightwing's case, he's supposed to be peak-human (meaning that he's trained a lot) for his size, height and weight, not to mention that I've seen more feats of strength from him than from Ravager (although there isn't much). Being able to topple Blockbuster with physical blows and defeat KGBeast (who's as strong as ten men) speaks volumes. He's not as strong as Batman, but close (and I think Batman is stronger than Ravager, despite her enhancements). Based on this, I don't think Ravager's physical enhancements would matter. Plus, he's damn good fighter (a master of six fighting styles, and/or including Aikido, Judo, and some Capoeira), appears to be more agile than Ravager, and is more experienced. I'd give her the benefit of a doubt due to her precognition, but it doesn't seem to be automatic. On top of that, I think it can be tricked, and with his unbreakable polymer Escrima sticks (they ricochet just like Daredevil's billy clubs), he could find ways around it.
From what I remember, it took specialized equipment, circumstances and a lot of timing and luck for Dick to take down Blockbuster, and even then Dick was scared as hell doing it. He's always seemed like a character who was keenly aware of his purely human physical limits, which is why he uses his exceptional agility and acrobatics to take on physically superior opponents. I don't know if that will work on Ravager, who's an incredible athlete in her own right and enhanced to boot. This will come down to skill and experience, which fighter can use their knowledge of the other to create opportunities. That's a game I can see Dick winning if Ravager is as unstable as I remember her being. Dick excels at manipulating mentally unfocussed opponents. Dealing with a mostly insane rogues gallery for your entire life will do that.
@Static Shock: She wins because the only area in which Nightwing has an advantage is acrobatics and I wouldnt say its a huge one at that. He may have defeated more impressive opponents as far as weight/strength are concerned but some of that (if not all) can be attributed to his status within the DCU. Popular characters defeat characters they shouldn't all the time. Also, and I may be wrong, the only people to have tricked Rose's precog are her father who has a natural advantage in that regard, and that Clock dude who could see the future. I dont believe its something that any skilled fighter can or has done.
From what I remember, it took specialized equipment, circumstances and a lot of timing and luck for Dick to take down Blockbuster.
I was referring to their first encounter, when Nightwing strikes him three times (with the third knocking him on his face). He didn't exactly win that one, but I was just attributing Nightwing's ability to knock him down. It was a spur of the moment thing. No prep involved, but I can agree on the timing (since Dick said that they were fighting in a relatively small space).
@Gambler said:
@Static Shock: She wins because the only area in which Nightwing has an advantage is acrobatics and I wouldnt say its a huge one at that. He may have defeated more impressive opponents as far as weight/strength are concerned but some of that (if not all) can be attributed to his status within the DCU. Popular characters defeat characters they shouldn't all the time. Also, and I may be wrong, the only people to have tricked Rose's precog are her father who has a natural advantage in that regard, and that Clock dude who could see the future. I dont believe its something that any skilled fighter can or has done.
What advantages does she have over Nightwing? What acrobatic feats put her close to him? As for his status in the DCU dictating his wins against people he shouldn't have defeated, who are you referring to? Given that Blockbuster has superhuman strength and durability, I'm pretty sure that it's at a low-level (I don't think he can lift any greater than ten tons, and he's not bulletproof, either). I could be wrong, though. He's just a brute, but with above-average intellect, IIRC.
As far as tricking her precog, from what I've seen, it's like Spider-Sense, but the only difference that she sees what will happen before it actually happens. At the same time, it appears as if she can only see one event at a time before it happens. Even then, it doesn't appear to be 100% (Static was was able to tag her off-panel with Taser Punches in spite of her precog, even though she was able to dodge his lightning bolts). Although we haven't seen it tricked by anyone but Deathstroke, I think Nightwing can manage if he knew how it worked.
What advantages does she have over Nightwing? What acrobatic feats put her close to him? As for his status in the DCU dictating his wins against people he shouldn't have defeated, who are you referring to? Given that Blockbuster has superhuman strength and durability, I'm pretty sure that it's at a low-level (I don't think he can lift any greater than ten tons, and he's not bulletproof, either). I could be wrong, though. He's just a brute, but with above-average intellect, IIRC. As far as tricking her precog, from what I've seen, it's like Spider-Sense, but the only difference that she sees what will happen before it actually happens. At the same time, it appears as if she can only see one event at a time before it happens. Even then, it doesn't appear to be 100% (Static was was able to tag her off-panel with Taser Punches in spite of her precog, even though she was able to dodge his lightning bolts). Although we haven't seen it tricked by anyone but Deathstroke, I think Nightwing can manage if he knew how it worked.
Speed, Strength, and Reflexes (given by her precog) and possibly even hand to hand skills. I was referring to his fights against Stroke and a couple against Cass. I doubt she has any acrobatic feats that place her "close" to him. But she doesnt need to have. When I say his advantage wouldn't be a huge one in that area I'm referring to situations in which acrobatics is paramount. Like saying jumping across rooftops. Dick may perform a double flip with a corkscrew flip to get across but Ravager's athletic enough to flip across and somersault upon landing. Her precog doesnt prevent her from getting tagged but at the same time thats not the same as tricking it.
One hand behind her back
I dont see any reason why Nightwing would be able to "trick" her precog. Its been compared to Cass's ability more then anything else and Dick couldn't trick hers. He couldnt even tag her (except in Outsiders and the Titans East vs West issue when he cape slammed her while she was going after Stroke and fresh off the serum)
Speed, Strength, and Reflexes (given by her precog) and possibly even hand to hand skills. I was referring to his fights against Stroke and a couple against Cass. I doubt she has any acrobatic feats that place her "close" to him. But she doesnt need to have. When I say his advantage wouldn't be a huge one in that area I'm referring to situations in which acrobatics is paramount. Like saying jumping across rooftops. Dick may perform a double flip with a corkscrew flip to get across but Ravager's athletic enough to flip across and somersault upon landing. Her precog doesnt prevent her from getting tagged but at the same time thats not the same as tricking it.
She might be faster (but by how much?), but I don't see a strength advantage, nor have I seen any strength feats from her to quantify her strength. His fights with Deathstroke are questionable (even though Deathstroke has given Nightwing more issues than vice versa). Cassandra Cain is different matter. In one fight, she dances around him. In another, they are striking each other, blow for blow. Other characters who don't read moves are able to do the same. Even Mr. Fun is able to tag her sometimes, and he's not as popular as a lot of the characters she fights. I'm beginning to think her ability to read moves isn't fool-proof, either.
When I said that she gets tagged in spite of her precog, I said that to support the fact that it doesn't always help her, not that it can be tricked. As far as hand-to-hand skills, that's kinda hard for me to swallow. The only person I recall her fighting evenly was Cassandra Cain, but Nightwing was able to fight her, too.
@Gambler said:
I dont see any reason why Nightwing would be able to "trick" her precog.
I was thinking more along the lines of using his sticks to do so, ricocheting them at angles in order to set her up to get tagged, since she can only foresee one attack at a time before it happens. It also appears as if she can only foresee an attack from an attacker if she's looking in the direction of where the attack is coming from (based on your scan).
@Gambler said:
Its been compared to Cass's ability more then anything else and Dick couldn't trick hers.
Considering the fact that he was able to fight her in Outsiders, he didn't need to trick hers.
Maybe I should have combined reflexes and speed as I am not referring to like say running. But because of her precog her combat speed is elevated to an extent in which she's easily able to contend with other characters with notable combat speed (like Cass and Stroke). And with more consistency then Nightwing. In Terror Titans Rose was mediating and shortly after getting up Copperhead tried to attack her from behind. With her back turned she reacted instantly, kicking him across the room. The dialog is what is most important as she says something to the effect of, "Sneak up on me? Oh Please." Indicating that because of her precog sneaking up on her was laughable. Or that could be the way I interpreted it.
@Static Shock said:
but I don't see a strength advantage, nor have I seen any strength feats from her to quantify her strength.
You're right, I havent seen any strength feats to support this. I only assume because she has taken the same serum as Stroke that all her major attributes have been elevated beyond peak human in the same manner. Speculation on my part.
@Static Shock said:
Cassandra Cain is different matter. In one fight, she dances around him. In another, they are striking each other, blow for blow.
Thats why I usually go with the numbers and other showings. Out of all the fights/confrontations Cass dancing around him without getting touched outnumber the once Outsider issue in which he was actually landing shots. But that is also the same title (possibly even same writer) that had Green Arrow doing more then holding his own against her so take from that what you will.
@Static Shock said:
Other characters who don't read moves are able to do the same. Even Mr. Fun is able to tag her sometimes, and he's not as popular as a lot of the characters she fights. I'm beginning to think her ability to read moves isn't fool-proof, either.
Other characters are able to what? Tag Cass? Of course, her ability has never been 100% you cant hit her. Mr. Fun? I'm unfamiliar with this fight. Issue number? I'm also not arguing that Nightwing wont be able to hit Ravager. What I'm saying is not only does her Precog give her an advantage in avoiding "some if not the majority" of his offensive maneuvers, but she'll also be able to see (in certain instances) where he'll land or move next, which would help close that Acrobatic advantage gap. A triple cartwheel backflip isnt much good if your opponent knows ahead of time where and when you're gonna land.
@Static Shock said:
When I said that she gets tagged in spite of her precog, I said that to support the fact that it doesn't always help her, not that it can be tricked. As far as hand-to-hand skills, that's kinda hard for me to swallow. The only person I recall her fighting evenly was Cassandra Cain, but Nightwing was able to fight her, too.
Nightwing was able to fight Cass but not to the extent Rose has. Twice now she's been in control of her fights against Cass only to lose or have the fight broken up by outside circumstances. Nightwing was holding his own, Rose was actually winning. Not only that but in Teen Titans Blackest Night she fights Stroke to the point of submission. Granted he wasnt interested in fighting her so thats a slanted example. However he was trying to fight back and failing. They may be close or even in skill, it seems though that at least visually Ravager uses more stylistic looking offensive techniques.
@Static Shock said:
I was thinking more along the lines of using his sticks to do so, ricocheting them at angles in order to set her up to get tagged, since she can only foresee one attack at a time before it happens. It also appears as if she can only foresee an attack from an attacker if she's looking in the direction of where the attack is coming from (based on your scan).
Oh I think she has quite a few examples showcasing her foreseeing multiple attacks (have to check). You may be right about her looking at the direction of the attack, but even so, using your ricochet attack its not like she'd only she him throw the sticks and then the precog is over. It follows the attack/event through to its conclusion. So in her vision she'd have seen his intention to bounce his attack of nearby objects and dodge accordingly. There's also the point I made earlier about her dodging Copperhead without facing him or even knowing he was there so its entirely possible that she doesn't need to be facing, or even have knowledge of the person's arrival in order for her precog to work.
Deathstroke explains her ability as follows
Seems to confirm your point. But even so, Cass, Shiva, etc body reading are predicated upon the same principle so regardless of whether or not she has to initially see her opponent to read em, that doesnt mean that an attack that originated in front of her and ends behind her is invisible to her ability.
@Static Shock said:
Considering the fact that he was able to fight her in Outsiders, he didn't need to trick hers.
Which is a contradiction to their previous, and later, encounters. I wouldnt hang my hat on an isolated incident.
Which made little sense to me, because I seem to remember her seeing the future in ways not explained by this...
I agree. I believe the first time her precog manifested itself she saw Stroke's entire future, or a substantial portion of it and he was nowhere around for her to look at or read. She just saw it.
Maybe I should have combined reflexes and speed as I am not referring to like say running. But because of her precog her combat speed is elevated to an extent in which she's easily able to contend with other characters with notable combat speed (like Cass and Stroke). And with more consistency then Nightwing. In Terror Titans Rose was mediating and shortly after getting up Copperhead tried to attack her from behind. With her back turned she reacted instantly, kicking him across the room. The dialog is what is most important as she says something to the effect of, "Sneak up on me? Oh Please." Indicating that because of her precog sneaking up on her was laughable. Or that could be the way I interpreted it.
I didn't think it was running, but mainly just combat speed, in general. I wouldn't say that her precog elevates her combat speed, per se, but that her precog just makes it easier for her to contend with other characters with notable combat speed (since her ability to predict their moves offsets the opponent's combat speed). Has Ravager ever beaten Deathstroke before, though? I think that it would be much different without it. Maybe that instance does imply that her precog works, even with her back turned. Or, maybe there something else that explains that. Her senses are enhanced, so there's also the possibility that she heard Copperhead's approach or maybe she noticed his scent in the room, rather than foreseeing his presence, if we're going by Deathstroke's analysis of how her precog works. I'm leaning toward the latter. I think that it would only be her precog if stated on panel, or if it shows Rose having a vision of the attack before it happens.
@Gambler
said:
Thats why I usually go with the numbers and other showings. Out of all the fights/confrontations Cass dancing around him without getting touched outnumber the once Outsider issue in which he was actually landing shots. But that is also the same title (possibly even same writer) that had Green Arrow doing more then holding his own against her so take from that what you will.
Which Green Arrow? Ollie or Conner? I thought the one fight where she danced around him was the only other fight. The one on the giant penny.
@Gambler
said:
Other characters are able to what? Tag Cass? Of course, her ability has never been 100% you cant hit her. Mr. Fun? I'm unfamiliar with this fight. Issue number? I'm also not arguing that Nightwing wont be able to hit Ravager. What I'm saying is not only does her Precog give her an advantage in avoiding "some if not the majority" of his offensive maneuvers, but she'll also be able to see (in certain instances) where he'll land or move next, which would help close that Acrobatic advantage gap. A triple cartwheel backflip isnt much good if your opponent knows ahead of time where and when you're gonna land.
I don't know what book it's in. I've only seen the scan. TheGentlemanRogue/Castleking posted it around here somewhere. Mr. Fun was giving both Nightwing and Batgirl issues by himself. I... can't argue with the rest.
@Gambler said:
Nightwing was able to fight Cass but not to the extent Rose has. Twice now she's been in control of her fights against Cass only to lose or have the fight broken up by outside circumstances. Nightwing was holding his own, Rose was actually winning. Not only that but in Teen Titans Blackest Night she fights Stroke to the point of submission. Granted he wasnt interested in fighting her so thats a slanted example. However he was trying to fight back and failing. They may be close or even in skill, it seems though that at least visually Ravager uses more stylistic looking offensive techniques.
The fight between Nightwing and Cass was interrupted by Alfred, although he was able to hold his own. If Ravager loses one fight to Batgirl, and the other is interrupted, I don't see how this makes Ravager look better. I won't hinge on Nightwing's ability to fight Deathstroke on certain occasions (other than the fact that he was able to fight Slade while he was depowered, the same Slade that defeated Batman twice in the same book). I applaud the way Ravager fights, but Nightwing's looks 'flashier.'
Gallery
Gallery
I have more examples, but I still have a lot more to read.
@Gambler said:
Oh I think she has quite a few examples showcasing her foreseeing multiple attacks (have to check). You may be right about her looking at the direction of the attack, but even so, using your ricochet attack its not like she'd only she him throw the sticks and then the precog is over. It follows the attack/event through to its conclusion. So in her vision she'd have seen his intention to bounce his attack of nearby objects and dodge accordingly. There's also the point I made earlier about her dodging Copperhead without facing him or even knowing he was there so its entirely possible that she doesn't need to be facing, or even have knowledge of the person's arrival in order for her precog to work.
Well, that's just it. She could very likely see the sticks coming at her even if they are coming from behind. But, that would be the set up, and in turn, Nightwing could attack her another way. I think this would work since she can only foresee one attack at a time before it takes place. It's kinda like how Daredevil was able to trick Spider-Man's Spider-Sense when he was covered in the symbiote. He used his billy club in the same manner I'm arguing for Nightwing to alert the Spider-Sense to his billy club ricocheting off of a tree. While doing so, Spider-Man wasn't paying attention to Daredevil, only the billy club in order to dodge that. But, it was set up, allowing Daredevil to capitalize on it and land shots on him. Captain America did the same thing with his shield, also. I'm basically saying that if he can use his sticks to his advantage and make her rabbit or dodge them, it would be easier for him to take advantage of her. Her ability to fight the rest of the Terror Titans is impressive, but a lot of street levelers do that without precog. The fight between Dick and Rose would be more clear cut if there were more details to go off of.
@Gambler said:
Which is a contradiction to their previous, and later, encounters. I wouldnt hang my hat on an isolated incident.
Hmmm? There was another fight after the one they had in Outsiders?
I agree. I believe the first time her precog manifested itself she saw Stroke's entire future, or a substantial portion of it and he was nowhere around for her to look at or read. She just saw it.
I think it was just a plot device, if anything. Her precog was mainly used for nothing but foreseeing attacks soon after that on a consistent basis.
@vuviper said:
Haha. I think most would say you're better. Good Luck against Gambler though.
I think you're better as far as street levelers go. You do better against Gambler than I do.
@Skaddix said:
I think static stunned her first so she could not move.
I agree. I believe the first time her precog manifested itself she saw Stroke's entire future, or a substantial portion of it and he was nowhere around for her to look at or read. She just saw it.
I think it was just a plot device, if anything. Her precog was mainly used for nothing but foreseeing attacks soon after that on a consistent basis.
@vuviper said:
Haha. I think most would say you're better. Good Luck against Gambler though.
I think you're better as far as street levelers go. You do better against Gambler than I do.
But what about the whole series about her taking epinephrine or adrenaline or something similar inorder to see glimpses of the future (That happened right? I'm up pretty late, and it's been a while since I've read anything with Ravager anyway)
But what about the whole series about her taking epinephrine or adrenaline or something similar inorder to see glimpses of the future (That happened right? I'm up pretty late, and it's been a while since I've read anything with Ravager anyway)
You mean the second feature she had in Teen Titans? Never read that one. I do know that Clock King gave her an inhaler that allowed her to trigger her precog at will in Terror Titans.
The fight between Nightwing and Cass was interrupted by Alfred, although he was able to hold his own. If Ravager loses one fight to Batgirl, and the other is interrupted, I don't see how this makes Ravager look better. I won't hinge on Nightwing's ability to fight Deathstroke on certain occasions (other than the fact that he was able to fight Slade while he was depowered, the same Slade that defeated Batman twice in the same book). I applaud the way Ravager fights, but Nightwing's looks 'flashier.'
To clarify on something, Stroke wasn't depowered back then (Dick actually comments that Deathstroke "is a metahuman" in that issue). It was the same Deathstroke that beat Batman twice, as you said (in fact, both issues were written by the same writer, Chuck Dixon), so I'm not sure what to make of that. Particularly given that when an enraged Nightwing faced Batman, the result was rather laughable on his part.
As for the first Blockbuster scan, Dick actually lost that fight. I know that's not the point you were trying to make, just saying that being more flashy doesn't necessarily provide better results.
Nice Cheshire vs NW scans, though. I hadn't seen those.
Oh I think she has quite a few examples showcasing her foreseeing multiple attacks (have to check). You may be right about her looking at the direction of the attack, but even so, using your ricochet attack its not like she'd only she him throw the sticks and then the precog is over. It follows the attack/event through to its conclusion. So in her vision she'd have seen his intention to bounce his attack of nearby objects and dodge accordingly. There's also the point I made earlier about her dodging Copperhead without facing him or even knowing he was there so its entirely possible that she doesn't need to be facing, or even have knowledge of the person's arrival in order for her precog to work.
No, her precog worked when she wasn't looking at Dreadbolt from behind in the scan you posted. And could've sworn that it was in that same issue, but I remember somewhere she was head locked from behind and her precog allowed her to get out of it.
I didn't think it was running, but mainly just combat speed, in general. I wouldn't say that her precog elevates her combat speed, per se, but that her precog just makes it easier for her to contend with other characters with notable combat speed (since her ability to predict their moves offsets the opponent's combat speed). Has Ravager ever beaten Deathstroke before, though? I think that it would be much different without it. Maybe that instance does imply that her precog works, even with her back turned. Or, maybe there something else that explains that. Her senses are enhanced, so there's also the possibility that she heard Copperhead's approach or maybe she noticed his scent in the room, rather than foreseeing his presence, if we're going by Deathstroke's analysis of how her precog works. I'm leaning toward the latter. I think that it would only be her precog if stated on panel, or if it shows Rose having a vision of the attack before it happens.
According to Stroke when he gave her the same serum that he was injected with her abilities would be elevated to his leve (including speed and strength). And isnt off-setting your opponents combat speed through advanced instincts (in this case precog) the same as if it actually elevated her speed? The terminology and actual application is somewhat moot considering the end result of either definition is Ravager's ability to react, defend, and attack, characters with authenticated meta-human/bullet timing combat speed. She defeated Stroke in Teen Titans Blackest Night. Its also possible that you're correct about her having heard or possibly smelling Copperhead before hand, but its not the only example of her precog warning her of an attack from behind and as you commented, it actually states its her precog on panel. I'd also say that depending on the context of the actual comic, her precog doesn't need to be explained or shown every fight. Most often abilities like that are established early on in an issue and then simply implied throughout. Cass' body reading isnt shown or explained every fight, we just follow the context of the issue(s). Once an ability like that is defined its unnecessary to continually define it. I guess at some point its up to the reader whether or not an ability is on-display without actually being mentioned. Thats why the Terror Titan issues were so exceptional well done. They went the extra mile to visual display Rose's abilities in a manner that was easy to follow. There's also something I've been curious about regarding her inhalers. At the end of her Second Feature mini's in Teen Titans we see her apparently use up all her inhalers at once. Does this mean then that she's no longer in need of using them steadily?
Here's her most impressive fight against Slade to date:
@Static Shock said:
Which Green Arrow? Ollie or Conner? I thought the one fight where she danced around him was the only other fight. The one on the giant penny.
Ollie. And no actual fights, more like exchanges( Physical and Verbal exchanges that depict Cass in a manor that contradicts the Outsider fight) in regards to Nightwing. In Cass' original series during the Bruce Wayne Fugitive arc Nightwing and Cass are reenacting the murder and Dick comments about how he doesnt have to hold back during the reenactment cause he knows he cant hit her anyway.
@Static Shock said:
I don't know what book it's in. I've only seen the scan. TheGentlemanRogue/Castleking posted it around here somewhere. Mr. Fun was giving both Nightwing and Batgirl issues by himself. I... can't argue with the rest.
I found it (Batman Family #7) Mr. Fun's origin and abilities are basically nonexistent. But from his showings he's a highly skilled assassin who actually killed Nightwing (stopped his heart with an Assassin Pressure point) and although he does manage to block a strike from Cass and trip her, she actually puts him down until he uses the unconscious Nightwing's wrist weapon thingy against her. He continues on to his target, Cass pulls herself up from the roof ledge and saves Dick's life. He had already incapacitated Dick so it wasn't as if he fought em both simultaneously. The above scan is a brief (and only on panel telling of Mr. Fun's origin that I could find). The scans below are the fight in question:
@Static Shock said:
The fight between Nightwing and Cass was interrupted by Alfred, although he was able to hold his own. If Ravager loses one fight to Batgirl, and the other is interrupted, I don't see how this makes Ravager look better. I won't hinge on Nightwing's ability to fight Deathstroke on certain occasions (other than the fact that he was able to fight Slade while he was depowered, the same Slade that defeated Batman twice in the same book). I applaud the way Ravager fights, but Nightwing's looks 'flashier.'
Yes the fight was interrupted but who do you think that favored? Cass or Nightwing? Based on their previous encounters and feats had Alfred not shown up Cass would have defeated Dick. Unless you're of the opinion that Nightwing can beat Cassandra Cain, in which case thats an entirely new debate. Ravager's fights against Cass look better cause she did more then hold her own, she was controlling the fights. Winning them up until outside circumstances reversed her momentum. Cass' dialog during their first fight (when Rose was at her most inexperienced) heaps nothing but praise upon her comparing the way she moves to Stroke. How her body sings like Slade's just not as loud and not as many voices that she cant read her. And even though she can read her she is hardly able to lay a hand on her. I think Nightwing's acrobatics look flashier, but Rose's strikes, holds, and attacks not only look flashier, but look like they're executed with more precision. I'd say out of the series of scans you posted only the second row was equal to the single image I had previously posted where Rose is using the backside of her knee to lock up her opponent MMA style.
@Static Shock said:
Well, that's just it. She could very likely see the sticks coming at her even if they are coming from behind. But, that would be the set up, and in turn, Nightwing could attack her another way. I think this would work since she can only foresee one attack at a time before it takes place. It's kinda like how Daredevil was able to trick Spider-Man's Spider-Sense when he was covered in the symbiote. He used his billy club in the same manner I'm arguing for Nightwing to alert the Spider-Sense to his billy club ricocheting off of a tree. While doing so, Spider-Man wasn't paying attention to Daredevil, only the billy club in order to dodge that. But, it was set up, allowing Daredevil to capitalize on it and land shots on him. Captain America did the same thing with his shield, also. I'm basically saying that if he can use his sticks to his advantage and make her rabbit or dodge them, it would be easier for him to take advantage of her. Her ability to fight the rest of the Terror Titans is impressive, but a lot of street levelers do that without precog. The fight between Dick and Rose would be more clear cut if there were more details to go off of.
You're right, he could. And her precog could just as reasonably see all of that before it ever happened. I'm also not sure why you believe she can only see "one" attack at a time? She doesnt just see attacks. She can, and has, seen glimpses of the future. The length can vary, and there in lies the opportunity for Nightwing to circumvent it. But to say she can only see one attack at a time is a false statement. There's a level of educated speculation here on my part, but we've never seen any indication that if attacked by two separate people, or one person executing a multi layered attack, that Ravager could only see one of them through her precog. If her precog is going she'll see everything within her immediate future regardless of who many things are happening. Rose's precog isnt the same as Spider-Sense, its not just an alarm signaling an attack, like I briefly mentioned before its actual glimpses of the future. Its not just the ability to see attacks, but beyond that she can see a whole series of events. I'd also argue that DD'ss combat intellgence and knowledge of Spiderman give him an advantage in that situation that Nightwing would not have. Yes he knows Ravager but nowhere near as well as DD knows Spiderman. Further more, Dick's fought a couple body readers before and never "tricked" their ability in the manner you're describing. In fact no one Ravager's faced has. Stroke himself states that she cant see his future cause he has complete control over every molecule. In that fight he doesn't trick her precog he simply able to render it a non factor. What I mean by that is, its not like she saw him through her precog performing a certain attack only to be tricked as he performs one she didnt see. Also, her precog isnt the only thing she has going for her. In fact I'd say its an advantage, but not essential for victory. She's far more ruthless then Nightwing as well as more durable. She can take an impressive amount of damage and keep coming. Her healing factor isnt Wolverine level but it is there and it would come in handy in a battle where her opponents hand to hand skill is on the same level as hers. She could conceivably take two to three hits while only delivering one or two herself and still inflect as much, if not more, damage then she's receiving.
@Static Shock said:
Hmmm? There was another fight after the one they had in Outsiders?
No thats my bad. I forgot the order of events and that the Penny fight happened before the Outsiders issue.
No, her precog worked when she wasn't looking at Dreadbolt from behind in the scan you posted. And could've sworn that it was in that same issue, but I remember somewhere she was head locked from behind and her precog allowed her to get out of it.
Thats what I was thinking. And I think I know the example you're thinking of cause at first I was gonna use it, but I actually believe the attack comes from the front and not her back (the headlock example I mean)
To clarify on something, Stroke wasn't depowered back then (Dick actually comments that Deathstroke "is a metahuman" in that issue). It was the same Deathstroke that beat Batman twice, as you said (in fact, both issues were written by the same writer, Chuck Dixon), so I'm not sure what to make of that. Particularly given that when an enraged Nightwing faced Batman, the result was rather laughable on his part.
As for the first Blockbuster scan, Dick actually lost that fight. I know that's not the point you were trying to make, just saying that being more flashy doesn't necessarily provide better results.
Nice Cheshire vs NW scans, though. I hadn't seen those.
Tim also said that Deathstroke was a possible metahuman in that book with Batman. What's up with that, though? It's as if saying that is irrelevant or Dixon had nothing better to put on paper. But, it's strange how Nightwing is able to fight Deathstroke sometimes (including his most recent fight with him in Titans, not counting the upcoming Titans vs. JLA if it hasn't come out yet), but other times, he can't . I don't want to chalk it up to inconsistency (since different fights between the same characters can always have different outcomes), but it's as if I don't have a choice. As for when Nightwing fought Batman, what happened there? I don't think I've seen that.
I had to put out the fight with Cheshire. I'm tracking down everything Nightwing. Almost every appearance.
According to Stroke when he gave her the same serum that he was injected with her abilities would be elevated to his leve (including speed and strength). And isnt off-setting your opponents combat speed through advanced instincts (in this case precog) the same as if it actually elevated her speed? The terminology and actual application is somewhat moot considering the end result of either definition is Ravager's ability to react, defend, and attack, characters with authenticated meta-human/bullet timing combat speed. She defeated Stroke in Teen Titans Blackest Night. Its also possible that you're correct about her having heard or possibly smelling Copperhead before hand, but its not the only example of her precog warning her of an attack from behind and as you commented, it actually states its her precog on panel. I'd also say that depending on the context of the actual comic, her precog doesn't need to be explained or shown every fight. Most often abilities like that are established early on in an issue and then simply implied throughout. Cass' body reading isnt shown or explained every fight, we just follow the context of the issue(s). Once an ability like that is defined its unnecessary to continually define it. I guess at some point its up to the reader whether or not an ability is on-display without actually being mentioned. Thats why the Terror Titan issues were so exceptional well done. They went the extra mile to visual display Rose's abilities in a manner that was easy to follow. There's also something I've been curious about regarding her inhalers. At the end of her Second Feature mini's in Teen Titans we see her apparently use up all her inhalers at once. Does this mean then that she's no longer in need of using them steadily?
Did Deathstroke really say all of what's in bold, or is that what the reader assumes? I don't think I've seen that anywhere. But, if Slade really said all of that, then the fight is a deal-breaker for me.
I don't think it's same as elevating her speed, at all. I mean, Mister X, although he's been able to read people like Wolverine, isn't actually as fast as Wolverine. It's just that his mind-reading makes Wolverine's speed insignificant. But, it is moot. At the beginning, when you said that Rose commented on how Copperhead sneaking up on her, you didn't say that her precog was stated at first, but that it was implied by what she said ("sneak up on me? oh please"), which doesn't imply much. But, I see what you're saying.
As for her Second Feature, I never read it. But, if she hasn't been using them recently..... *shrugs.* Her fight against Deathstroke in Blackest Night is impressive, but if her physical abilities are really at his level, it's more believable than Nightwing being able to fight him.
@Gambler said:
Ollie. And no actual fights, more like exchanges( Physical and Verbal exchanges that depict Cass in a manor that contradicts the Outsider fight) in regards to Nightwing. In Cass' original series during the Bruce Wayne Fugitive arc Nightwing and Cass are reenacting the murder and Dick comments about how he doesnt have to hold back during the reenactment cause he knows he cant hit her anyway.
Ollie..... >_<
Conner would have made more sense. I don't know what to say about the reenactment, however. That was on the penny, right? I don't know. Maybe Nightwing was underestimating himself there. That and the fight in Outsiders are the only two showings I know of. Are there more?
@Gambler said:
I found it (Batman Family #7) Mr. Fun's origin and abilities are basically nonexistent. But from his showings he's a highly skilled assassin who actually killed Nightwing (stopped his heart with an Assassin Pressure point) and although he does manage to block a strike from Cass and trip her, she actually puts him down until he uses the unconscious Nightwing's wrist weapon thingy against her. He continues on to his target, Cass pulls herself up from the roof ledge and saves Dick's life. He had already incapacitated Dick so it wasn't as if he fought em both simultaneously.
Yeah, that's it. I get the feeling that Dick would have actually put up a fight if Mr. Fun had not come out of nowhere. He was still dazed from that golfclub strike from behind (Dick saw multiple Mr. Funs in one panel). But, yeah. Mr. Fun is just one of few people that could tag her and don't have her move-reading abilities.
Yes the fight was interrupted but who do you think that favored? Cass or Nightwing? Based on their previous encounters and feats had Alfred not shown up Cass would have defeated Dick. Unless you're of the opinion that Nightwing can beat Cassandra Cain, in which case thats an entirely new debate. Ravager's fights against Cass look better cause she did more then hold her own, she was controlling the fights. Winning them up until outside circumstances reversed her momentum. Cass' dialog during their first fight (when Rose was at her most inexperienced) heaps nothing but praise upon her comparing the way she moves to Stroke. How her body sings like Slade's just not as loud and not as many voices that she cant read her. And even though she can read her she is hardly able to lay a hand on her. I think Nightwing's acrobatics look flashier, but Rose's strikes, holds, and attacks not only look flashier, but look like they're executed with more precision. I'd say out of the series of scans you posted only the second row was equal to the single image I had previously posted where Rose is using the backside of her knee to lock up her opponent MMA style.
It's hard to tell. Neither one of them looked like they were winning; it seemed even until Alfred came out of nowhere. But, since you put it that way, based on feats and stuff, she probably would have won. I have more scans, but I would have to sift through hundreds of comics. So, whenever I find more to post, I'll let you know.
You're right, he could. And her precog could just as reasonably see all of that before it ever happened. I'm also not sure why you believe she can only see "one" attack at a time? She doesnt just see attacks. She can, and has, seen glimpses of the future. The length can vary, and there in lies the opportunity for Nightwing to circumvent it. But to say she can only see one attack at a time is a false statement. There's a level of educated speculation here on my part, but we've never seen any indication that if attacked by two separate people, or one person executing a multi layered attack, that Ravager could only see one of them through her precog. If her precog is going she'll see everything within her immediate future regardless of who many things are happening. Rose's precog isnt the same as Spider-Sense, its not just an alarm signaling an attack, like I briefly mentioned before its actual glimpses of the future. Its not just the ability to see attacks, but beyond that she can see a whole series of events. I'd also argue that DD'ss combat intellgence and knowledge of Spiderman give him an advantage in that situation that Nightwing would not have. Yes he knows Ravager but nowhere near as well as DD knows Spiderman. Further more, Dick's fought a couple body readers before and never "tricked" their ability in the manner you're describing. In fact no one Ravager's faced has. Stroke himself states that she cant see his future cause he has complete control over every molecule. In that fight he doesn't trick her precog he simply able to render it a non factor. What I mean by that is, its not like she saw him through her precog performing a certain attack only to be tricked as he performs one she didnt see. Also, her precog isnt the only thing she has going for her. In fact I'd say its an advantage, but not essential for victory. She's far more ruthless then Nightwing as well as more durable. She can take an impressive amount of damage and keep coming. Her healing factor isnt Wolverine level but it is there and it would come in handy in a battle where her opponents hand to hand skill is on the same level as hers. She could conceivably take two to three hits while only delivering one or two herself and still inflect as much, if not more, damage then she's receiving.
The only reason why I think this is because of how it's shown. In the scan of her fighting Bolt, she sees one attack in one panel, but then she dodges said attack in the other. In the next panel, she sees only one attack again, and then dodges said attack when it happens. It's the same again in the next two panels. You see, it's not like she's foreseeing a string of different attacks at once (like Midnighter does). She's only seeing one attack at a time before it actually happens. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's just like What If Spider Man's heightened and more advanced Spider-Sense, where he just knows things (it was full blown precog, where he actually saw the events before they happened). Even then, with that heightened Spider-Sense, he could only see one event before it happened, after the other. As far as seeing glimpses of the future or a string of events at once, wasn't that only a one time thing? Consistently, it's only been used as it's shown in the scan you posted. Her precog may not be the same as Spider-Sense, but it's only different in a sense that she actually sees the events while Spidey doesn't. Either way, they are both 'sixth' senses, and they are both activated in the event that a stimulus will take place afterward.
The only body reader that remember Dick fighting was Lady Shiva, which was during Knight's End, IIRC. Around that time, she wasn't even written to read moves in battle until her appearances in Batgirl. So, basically, there was nothing to 'trick' there. Deathstroke didn't 'trick' her because he didn't need to, based on what he said. Again, this is only considering that Nightwing knew about her precog and how it works. I just wanted to argue for a 'what if' situation, since the OP sucks with details. Durability is arguable. Nightwing, himself, for a human, has taken a lot of damage and kept fighting, too. This isn't to say that Nightwing would outlast her, however.
To clarify on something, Stroke wasn't depowered back then (Dick actually comments that Deathstroke "is a metahuman" in that issue). It was the same Deathstroke that beat Batman twice, as you said (in fact, both issues were written by the same writer, Chuck Dixon), so I'm not sure what to make of that. Particularly given that when an enraged Nightwing faced Batman, the result was rather laughable on his part.
As for the first Blockbuster scan, Dick actually lost that fight. I know that's not the point you were trying to make, just saying that being more flashy doesn't necessarily provide better results.
Nice Cheshire vs NW scans, though. I hadn't seen those.
Tim also said that Deathstroke was a possible metahuman in that book with Batman. What's up with that, though? It's as if saying that is irrelevant or Dixon had nothing better to put on paper. But, it's strange how Nightwing is able to fight Deathstroke sometimes (including his most recent fight with him in Titans, not counting the upcoming Titans vs. JLA if it hasn't come out yet), but other times, he can't . I don't want to chalk it up to inconsistency (since different fights between the same characters can always have different outcomes), but it's as if I don't have a choice. As for when Nightwing fought Batman, what happened there? I don't think I've seen that. I had to put out the fight with Cheshire. I'm tracking down everything Nightwing. Almost every appearance.
Not saying it's irrelevant, at all, just pointing out that Stroke got depowered earlier in his career, not at the time he was wearing the blue suit. It's a take it as you will kind of thing, seeing that Deathstroke can't feasibly beat Batman twice (with ease, in fact), then have issues with Nightwing. Dixon seemed anxious to give Nightwing props against a big opponent is my guess. You'll find one more fight where Dick does well against Stroke (the choreography of that fight being nearly identical to the first Cassie Cain vs Slade fight), during Nightwing: Renegade, written by Devin Grayson. That's the same writer that penned the issue where Stroke beats Nightwing three times, so it's also confusing. Dick later fought Stroke outside his own book and was taken down with a kick to the back of the head before the Titans came to the rescue, then Deathstroke was doing extremely well in a team that included Nightwing and 4-5 other Titans, during Titans East (I believe you've seen scans of that). I'm not saying we should discredit any examples from their overall history, but outside from Nightwing's book (and occasionally, even there), Deathstroke rarely has issues with him (three fights out of an overall 12-13; I've lost count). As for their recent stalemate in Titans, and the JLA vs Titans, the issue played out already, but they didn't fight. Deathstroke fought Ray Palmer and Supergirl, while Dick engaged Arsenal (and the fight ended with both landing an equal amount of hits, IIRC). So, the same writer that wrote the Deathstroke vs Graysonbat fight, now had him draw Arsenal.
Now, I definitely agree that fights don't have to go one way all the time. Street level characters are not unlike athletes - it's not always certain that they'll operate at the best of their ability at any given time.
Nightwing vs Batman happened in Batman # 600. Nightwing was infuriated and was trying to stop Batman, Batman barely had any interest in fighting him. The fight mostly comprised of Nightwing trying to hit Batman and him evading every shot, refusing to even acknowledge him. When he did, he landed 2 hits that floored Nightwing, but Bruce had no intention of really continuing. He lured Dick into the portion of the cave where his old Robin costume was kept, and orchestrated his movements on the fly, so that when Dick would try to punch him, he'd break through the glass where the suit was kept. Nightwing was broken down upon seeing the costume, and Batman left.
Did Deathstroke really say all of what's in bold, or is that what the reader assumes? I don't think I've seen that anywhere. But, if Slade really said all of that, then the fight is a deal-breaker for me.
Not only did Stroke say it, in a separate issue Starfire stated it as well.
@Static Shock said:
I don't think it's same as elevating her speed, at all. I mean, Mister X, although he's been able to read people like Wolverine, isn't actually as fast as Wolverine. It's just that his mind-reading makes Wolverine's speed insignificant. But, it is moot. At the beginning, when you said that Rose commented on how Copperhead sneaking up on her, you didn't say that her precog was stated at first, but that it was implied by what she said ("sneak up on me? oh please"), which doesn't imply much. But, I see what you're saying.
When I say its the same what I mean is the end result. Again, if her ability allows her to contend with characters who have faster speed then whether or not her own speed is techincally elevated is a moot point as the end result is the same (their speed advantage being negated). I guess for me it implies the use of her precog because for years those are the type of indicators used in displaying her preog so writers didnt have to continual over explain her using it single instance.
@Static Shock said:
Ollie..... >_<
Conner would have made more sense. I don't know what to say about the reenactment, however. That was on the penny, right? I don't know. Maybe Nightwing was underestimating himself there. That and the fight in Outsiders are the only two showings I know of. Are there more?
Agreed, which is why so many fans easily dismiss her fight with Nightwing in the same series. The reenactment happens in Cass' original series during the Bruce Wayne Fugitive arc. Its a separate (and earlier) instances then the one on the penny. There's his remarks in Fugitive, there's another single issue in which she kicks him through a wall after he had broken Babs' heart, there's the Giant Penny, and Outsider fight. There's also the Titans East vs West showing in which he one shots her.
@Static Shock said:
It's hard to tell. Neither one of them looked like they were winning; it seemed even until Alfred came out of nowhere. But, since you put it that way, based on feats and stuff, she probably would have won. I have more scans, but I would have to sift through hundreds of comics. So, whenever I find more to post, I'll let you know.
Yeah thats probably a matter of perspective and who the reader likes more, which would make sense in a somewhat neutral issue. But its not secret that I lean towards Cass in terms of my fandom, but I honestly believe looking at the scans that it appears to be going her way by the time Alfred shows up. The first couple panels are them trading shot for shot until Cain is accredited back to back panels in her favor, even asking Nightwing if he's had a enough. He says not even close but she's got him against the wall with one hand around his neck and the other holding his hair (which makes no sense at all but thats a separate matter). It looks to me like she was just starting to turn the fight in her favor when Alfred arrives.
@Static Shock said:
The only reason why I think this is because of how it's shown. In the scan of her fighting Bolt, she sees one attack in one panel, but then she dodges said attack in the other. In the next panel, she sees only one attack again, and then dodges said attack when it happens. It's the same again in the next two panels. You see, it's not like she's foreseeing a string of different attacks at once (like Midnighter does). She's only seeing one attack at a time before it actually happens. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's just like What If Spider Man's heightened and more advanced Spider-Sense, where he just knows things (it was full blown precog, where he actually saw the events before they happened). Even then, with that heightened Spider-Sense, he could only see one event before it happened, after the other.
Thats how it was shown by one particular artist/writer/run. Up until the Terror Titans issues her precog had never been illustrated in that manner before. Dont get me I like it, but it doesnt wash away the years of previously established examples. Here's one from Teen Titans v.3 #9 "I can see your everymove" she says. Not "I can only see oneof your moves at a time" Its also absent the visual aid seen in the Terror Titans issues and her fight against Bolt. The manner in which the artist chooses to illustrate Rose's precog doesn't mean she only see's one event at a time. Because her precog comes and goes its entirely possible for her to have seen an entire series of events, or attacks, in one fight while turning around and only seeing attacks one at a time in another. I think I may have mentioned before that the length of her precog varies, as does whether or not it happens at all. Not sure if it matters or not but its worth mentioning. In these later issues in which we get the black visual panel of her precog, she not only see's the attack, but she sees the attack landing and adjust accordingly. If you look at the Bolt fight every single panel in which she's seen his move is a move that lands. So her vision goes beyond the intial stages of the attack. It actually sees all the way through to its conclusion. Which is sorta what started this point in the first place correct? The idea of Nightwing throwing his sticks and ricocheting them off something to hit her? But like I just pointed out her precog not only sees what the attack is, it sees how it ends. Meaning she'd see the entire path of the sticks and the end result.
@Static Shock said:
As far as seeing glimpses of the future or a string of events at once, wasn't that only a one time thing? Consistently, it's only been used as it's shown in the scan you posted. Her precog may not be the same as Spider-Sense, but it's only different in a sense that she actually sees the events while Spidey doesn't. Either way, they are both 'sixth' senses, and they are both activated in the event that a stimulus will take place afterward.The only body reader that remember Dick fighting was Lady Shiva, which was during Knight's End, IIRC. Around that time, she wasn't even written to read moves in battle until her appearances in Batgirl. So, basically, there was nothing to 'trick' there. Deathstroke didn't 'trick' her because he didn't need to, based on what he said. Again, this is only considering that Nightwing knew about her precog and how it works. I just wanted to argue for a 'what if' situation, since the OP sucks with details. Durability is arguable. Nightwing, himself, for a human, has taken a lot of damage and kept fighting, too. This isn't to say that Nightwing would outlast her, however.
I believe its happened at least twice that I know of. Once when her powers were original introduced (she actual went Astral projection in that one) and another while talking to the Clock King. Also tricking Spider Sense is easier simply because tricking Spiderman himself is easier. Without his powers Spiderman is a limited hand to hand fighter and never been known as combat tactician. Which is why more experienced fighters like Cap and DD are sometimes able to circumvent his ability. That wouldnt be the case here. Rose is just as tactically savvy as Dick. I also think though that maybe to much focus has been dedicated to her precog and what it can or cant do. She's faced tougher opponents then Nightwing without the aid of any precog before. Her fights against Stroke and Cass come to mind. She also fought and tricked Clock King's precog so even lets say for the sake of argument Nightwing neutralizes her precog she's still just as dangerous and within her element. Nightwing can take alot of damage but Rose has a healing factor. Not sure who has the more impressive durability feats. I'd have to look. I know she's survived and kept fighting after being in explosions and stabbed. Most likely Nightwing has as well.
(any parts that I skipped over were the ones where it seemed we agreed)
Not for me. LOL. I did it with Captain Atom. Black Panther, too. :)
I did it with Connor Hawke and with Tim Drake. I started Tim before Connor and I'm still not finished lol. For me characters that have a lot of appearances are hard.
Did Deathstroke really say all of what's in bold, or is that what the reader assumes? I don't think I've seen that anywhere. But, if Slade really said all of that, then the fight is a deal-breaker for me.
Not only did Stroke say it, in a separate issue Starfire stated it as well.
All right. You win. LOL.
@Ghost_Knight said:
Nightwing wins.
He's more skilled, much more experienced, better weaponry, and has more impressive feats.
Gallery
Hmmmm. Doesn't look like an all-out fight... Plus, I not have reason to believe that Ravager has gotten better since that showing. After all, she nearly defeated her father in Blackest Night. Something Nightwing couldn't do legitimately.
@Static Shock: Always enjoy debating with certain users on here. And to be fair, I think we can all agree that despite dialog to the contrary, we've never seen Ravager really display the same level of strength feats as her father. But the scans look nice anyway lol
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