Raimi spider-man (novel version) vs Mcu Spider-Man

Haven't read the novels but if he's anything like the movie counterpart, he should win.

Never read Raimi Novel but if he scales to his movie self then he stomps.

@jurance: @xd_ist: he doesn’t,

But what makes y’all think the movie version stomps?

Noone's stomping anyone, it's a High diff fight either way.

It's not a stomp. Raimi did better against Goblin though. Aside from the first festival fight where he was getting used to his powers, he clowns him in the burning building. Goblin then conceded that he can't beat him in a fair fight.

@hoopla001 said:

Goblin when being punched by Tobey: STOP STOP STOP!!!

Goblin when being punched by Tom: LOL!!!

Stopping a bloodlusted Tom from killing the Goblin + actually hurt the Goblin when not bloodlusted.

@frozen: @warrior8411: Nah it's a stomp or at least a low-mid diff in Tobeys favor.

? Tobey might win but he's having a fairly hard time beating tom, It's not like the stat difference is Massive.

@xd_ist: @jurance: but he was just trying to catch tobey off guard, plus that’s bloodlusted tobey, and he unlike with Tom goblin was still conscious enough to try a trick. But with Tom he was so worn out he couldn’t even try anything, until he got like 30 seconds to recover

and it’s not like he wasn’t gasping in pain from Tom’s punches even during the apartment fight. He just started to enjoy the brutality.

Both hurt the goblin when not bloodlusted, goblin shrugged off wvey blow from a non bloodlusted tobey.

Plus Tom was injured with broken ribs and tired and limping when tobey stopped him.

He did do better against, since goblin admitted defeat against him in the burning building, wouldn’t be a stomp though. Especially with all Tom’s gear instead of just his regular web shooters.

Oh, no, I don't think it would be a stomp. Probably mid-high diff in Tobey's favor is what i'm trying to say.

@warrior8411: It's bigger then you think.

Goblin was literally laughing at those punches lol, he def no-sold them.

Tom needed the glider to kill Goblin, if you rewatch the final battle closely, you would realize that all those repeated punches from Tom could not even make Goblin bleed, not even a scratch on his face, Goblin got back up 43 seconds later and laughed it all off.

Goblin begged Tobey to stop during their final battle and he needed the glider to beat him, Goblin wasn't bleeding sure but that's because he had his armor on plus visibly, Tobey still did a lot more damage to Goblin.

@jurance: no he didn’t, he was completely bruise free all he had on him was dirt. Didn’t even break any armor pieces, he was just dirty

So tobey couldn’t make norman bleed either

He definitely didn’t no sell him, if he’s grunting in pain.

And screaming out in pain from punches straight to the armor during the final battleZ

Neither tobey or Tom was able to kill goblin by beating him to death.

He only begged to catch him off guard, he even played like he was still Norman. During the final no way home battle he was too tired to beg and just accepted his fate unable to get up.

But I don’t think we have to continue this discussion since the thread is about the Novel, which has different feats, and scaling

@hoopla001:

no he didn’t, he was completely bruise free all he had on him was dirt.

Well he did badly damage Goblins armor which should be more durable then his own body (Idk how Norman was able to destroy it in NWH).

He definitely didn’t no sell him, if he’s grunting in pain.

I don't recall him grunting in pain in the apartment scene, only the final battle. In the apartment scene we literally see Norman laugh off all his punches.

And screaming out in pain from punches straight to the armor during the final battleZ

I'm confused, when did Goblin "scream" out in pain from punches straight to his armor? Goblin never screamed out in pain.

Neither tobey or Tom was able to kill goblin by beating him to death.

Duh.

He only begged to catch him off guard, he even played like he was still Norman.

He begged to catch him off guard because Tobey was beating the shit out of him.

During the final no way home battle he was too tired to beg and just accepted his fate unable to get up.

So you admit he was too tired? In other words Tom was fighting an exhausted Goblin? Either ways Goblin got back up in 43 seconds and laughed off everything.

@jurance: certainly not as big as you think.

We're talking about the strength difference similar to the one between an 18 year old Average Male and 26 year Old average male.

26year old would win, But not in a stomp.

You realize what stomping means right?

I can stomp an ant, or any insect for that matter..

That's not the level of strength or any stat difference we're talking about.

---

Proving tobeys stronger won't just do it.. U gotta prove he's as several times faster, way more durable etc to make it a low diff win

@warrior8411:

We're talking about the strength difference similar to the one between an 18 year old Average Male and 26 year Old average male.

26year old would win, But not in a stomp.

Tbh i think the average 26 year old would win against the average 18 year old with low-mid diff. Basically better in every way. So not that much of a difference.

You realize what stomping means right?

Yea, no-low diffing your opponent.

I can stomp an ant, or any insect for that matter..

I don't mean that kind of stomping, i don't think the gap is that big.

That's not the level of strength or any stat difference we're talking about.

---

Proving tobeys stronger won't just do it.. U gotta prove he's as several times faster, way more durable etc to make it a low diff win

Already did, Goblin laughed off of Toms punches, he begged Tobey to stop even with armor.

Tom needed the glider to kill Goblin, meanwhile Goblin needed the glider to kill Tobey lol.

@jurance: “Well he did badly damage Goblins armor which should be more durable then his own body (Idk how Norman was able to destroy it in NWH).”

Nah the armor is as fine, that’s literally just dirt,

“I don't recall him grunting in pain in the apartment scene, only the final battle. In the apartment scene we literally see Norman laugh off all his punche“

When he punches norman in the face during the condo fight, you can hear norman grunt in pain. And then go ooof when Peter slams him through the floor. He doesn’t laugh because it doesn’t hurt, he laughs because he enjoys seeing peter like this. Same reason he taunts him after having to be saved by tobey

“I'm confused, when did Goblin "scream" out in pain from punches straight to his armor? Goblin never screamed out in pain.“ final battle, he goes agh! When peter punches him

“So you admit he was too tired? In other words Tom was fighting an exhausted Goblin? Either ways Goblin got back up in 43 seconds and laughed off everything.“

I’m sorry what was your point here? Tom’s the one who beat him down so much he was too tired to move. He didn’t fight an exhausted goblin, goblin fought an exhausted tom.

@hoopla001:

Nah the armor is as fine, that’s literally just dirt,

No, if you look closely, the armor is actually broken.

If you still can't find the damaged parts, then i'll get a SS later i can't atm.

When he punches norman in the face during the condo fight, you can hear norman grunt in pain. And then go ooof when Peter slams him through the floor. He doesn’t laugh because it doesn’t hurt, he laughs because he enjoys seeing peter like this. Same reason he taunts him after having to be saved by tobey.

So you say he only laughs when he feels pain yet still claims that he grunts in pain? Also a grunt is just a tiny noise, it can't always be because of pain lol. Ima have to rewatch that scene though, i can't rn cause i don't have my headphones.

final battle, he goes agh! When peter punches him

When? You said he screamed in pain i never heard him scream. He only said "agh" silently not loudly.

I’m sorry what was your point here? Tom’s the one who beat him down so much he was too tired to move. He didn’t fight an exhausted goblin, goblin fought an exhausted tom.

He was exhausted by being beat up? Well i guess we can say that but he wasn't that exhausted given he got back up in 43 seconds, i'm not sure if i ever took a beating like that (repeated punches to the face) i would be able to get back up in just 43 seconds lol. Plus Norman had no visible damage on his face, not even a scratch.

@jurance:

Didn’t say he only laughs when in pain, he laughs when he sees peters anger.

clearly you don’t think goblin was damaged by tobey either then.

Bro couldn’t even get up, I didn’t say he was knocked out, I said he was exhausted, when you rest you can get back up if you were previously exhaust plenty of people can stand after 40 seconds of rest even when they are bruised up. .

He clearly screamed out agh! When peter hits him in the ribs, it’s pretty loud too.

Him not havifn any viable damage to his face ie irrelevant, given he was struggling to stand, and couldn’t stand. He was clearly hurt and tobey did no visible damage either

Yeah, you can just screen shot it and highlight what you think is damage

@hoopla001:

Peter clowned Goblin in the burning building fight. Overpowers him and tools him:

Peter is able to block his strike and then knock over Goblin with his own. He is able to knock Goblin back. In fact, he's got the upper hand.

This causes Goblin to concede and say that Spider-Man is all but Invincible’ and that he needs to attack him mentally and ambush him to win, can’t win a fair fight.

Compare that to Holland's apartment fight.

Tobey is either equal or better than Peter in literally every way.

I’m backing a bloodlusted Tom in the fight of his life

@kataraaaa: Against just novel version? Or do you mean both novel and movie?

@jurance: I think I remember a doc ock novel for SM2 actually but I don’t remember any details/differences

I think Tom’s the best of the 3 Peter’s

@kataraaaa: Idk about novel but with movie feats and scaling Tobey would clap Tom.

Goblin when being punched by Tobey: STOP STOP STOP!!!

Goblin when being punched by Tom: LOL!!!

Idk how it's still debatable a year later, Tobey was clearly intended to be superior.

@jurance: Goblin definitely wasn’t going “LOL” in the final fight where Tom beat him to a pulp

@frozen: I literally already said he did better against goblin , but that was his first fight with him. And we all know how Tobeys first fight with him went, he got his punch easily caught and kicked across the street, got knocked off the gilder and only kinda won by messing with goblins glider. Then he got put to sleep in their second encounter.

And goblins statement is kinda ridiculous and over blown, considering he did beat him. And is of course able to hurt him. So if they continued instead of having peter run away, hed probably have a chance.

but we are talking about the novel version where different events happen and the nwh scaling doesn’t apply

Why? Bloodlusted Tobey did better than bloodlusted Tom. Tom had to actually try and out maneuver GG. He was also tagged. Tobey just straight up overpowered GG in pure strength and made him give up much more quickly

@kataraaaa said:

Yea he did, 43 seconds later Goblin got back up and laughed it all off, he wasn't even bleeding nor did he have a scratch on him.

@hoopla001:

Difference is that first film Peter is growing into his powers. When he first gets his powers, that wrestler guy is able to throw him around. The fact that festival Peter got stomped whereas burning building Peter more or less won should tell you how much he grows.

Goblin statement is simple. He is overpowered by Peter, albeit in a decent fight, then admits he can't beat him in a fair contest.

@frozen: Tom had broken ribs and had fought several other villains, and Tom didn’t have to outmaneuver him, he straight up beat him down. Tobey was getting his ass beaten by Goblin before he won as well.

@jurance: He was KO’d and getting pummeled. He got up after the infamous scene between Tobey and Tom and went back to being GG.

Tobey is specifically stated to have been injured and tired beforehand when GG is wailing on him. So he was not full capacity either. Bloodlusted Tom has to web GG up and dodge his hits, because he is tagged twice. Bloodlusted Tobey makes GG give up in 5 hits.

2:25

@frozen: I can buy that, but let’s not ignore the fact Tom was also significantly injured himself. Right before their fight he tanked the glider, a pumpkin bomb, and a rough fall.

Tom only got tagged twice by GG before he started his beatdown. I also don’t see inclusion of evasion and webbing as a limiter for Spider-Man of all characters. He still overpowered Norman and beat him down badly.

@kataraaaa:

Tom was injured. But the bloodlust should negate his injuries. We saw a bloodlusted injured Tom perform better than a fully rested Tom who the script notes as not holding back:

Tobey in a bloodlusted state makes GG give up in 5 hits:

Script indicates he is just returning to his base level prior to injury. "His strength returning":

GG has to plead for his life after 5 hits to save himself. Whereas against Tom he is taking punch after punch and is "eager for more":

@frozen: so hes clearly spent, having time to recover to fight again isn’t really a point against Tom. Tom beat him so bad he couldn’t fake asking for mercy and help, Tobey didnt beat on him enough to even keep him on the ground.

And he still wanted to continue fighting tobey too, he didn’t just surrender, that’s why he tried to kill him with the glider

And he Also wasn’t still growing into his powers, after the he puts gets his true costume he should be fully formed. The only time I remember him growing into his powers was when he was still learning to swing for real.

Also how can you take the script as a valid version of events if it’s different than what happened in the movies, he never breaks the pitch fork in the movies, never says please, never smashes it into Norman’s face

Never punches him through a wall

@frozen: Bloodlust doesn’t negate injuries, it can help you ignore them but if Tom took a good punch to the ribs it wouldn’t change the fact he has an injury there. The script argument is also implying bloodlusted injured Tom > bloodlusted fresh Tom, which makes little sense and would negate the “bloodlust overrode his injuries” argument. All it’d suggest is he adjusted his potency.

GG can be “eager” all he wants, he was knocked out cold and about to die and him being a psychopath who’s taking hits won’t change that. Tom was making him scream with his punches in the finale

Goblin is spent and losing. That's not in contention. Issue is Tom is having to do a lot more. Against Tobey, he gives up after 5 hits and begs for forgiveness. His plan is to surprise him with the glider from behind. Not continue a straight fist fight which he clearly can't win.

The fact that we see burning building Peter perform massively better than festival Peter, to the point where GG concedes he can't win, should be enough to show his powers were developing IMO.

Tobey is noted as injured too. Yet the script says "his strength returning" when MJ is threatened. Also I wouldn't say apartment Tom was bloodluste. He was frantic and not holding back but he wasn't bloodlusted to the extent where he would kill GG. This only happens after GG kills Aunt May. He then makes the decision that he will kill GG. So bloodlust > not holding back is not necessarily contradictory. And it reflects what happens on screen given that he is fully rested in the apartment and clearly wailing on GG yet does worse than the final fight Tom.

GG is being hurt by Tom but he doesn't concede to them as quickly as he does to Tobey, who he has no choice to give up against.

@frozen: “Goblin is spent and losing. That's not in contention. Issue is Tom is having to do a lot more. Against Tobey, he gives up after 5 hits and begs for forgiveness. His plan is to surprise him with the glider from behind. Not continue a straight fist fight which he clearly can't win.

The fact that we see burning building Peter perform massively better than festival Peter, to the point where GG concedes he can't win, should be enough to show his powers were developing IMO.“

He wasn’t gonna win against Tom either,

I’d also argue he just fought a more familiar opponent rather than actually getting stronger, goblin still had all the advantages he showed in the first fight, he can shrug off all of peters attacks. He just got more used to fighting him. Plus all his extra gadgets. Like sleeping gas, which he used to take peter out very easily.

Also, he didn’t give up considering he was still plotting to kill him. It didn’t take more effort for Tom to defeat norman. He was just going on her kill he down for awhile unable to even attempt to fake begging for mercy.

Also how can you take the script as a valid version of events if it’s different than what happened in the movies, he never breaks the pitch fork in the movies, never says please, never smashes it into Norman’s face, Never punches him through a wall. Those don’t seem like valid forms of evidence to me, since things clearly changed for the movie.

@frozen: He didn’t concede because Tom didn’t give him a moment go breathe in order to do that. He didn’t say a word during that beatdown, all we get is a bloodlusted Tom going all out in his assault.

I just don’t see how you can say one is superior to the other based on their performances against people they both ended up beating.

@kataraaaa said:

Goblin wasn't K.O'd bruh, he was just knocked down and got back up 43 seconds later.

Rewatch the scene, he had no scratch on his face, he was perfectly fine, sure he took some damage but not that much considering Tom couldn't make him bleed.

Tobey high-diff for now.

This will likely change in Spider-Man 4 tho.

@jurance: He was literally down and Tom was about to gut him to death. Not sure what your definition of KO means if that doesn’t qualify.

Him not bleeding is nice but not evidence against Tom beating him to a pulp.

@kataraaaa: Why are you even debating if you never watched the movie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6y0b_G5OZQ&t=257s

4:22

Hes literally not knocked out, completely conscious, it's all right there. Hes just tired asf to do anything.

Beating someone to a pulp means badly injuring them, Norman is clearly not injured at all, he doesn't even have any bruises or scratches on him.

@jurance: We literally see Tom throw an uppercut that makes his eyes roll back like the undertaker and drops him with absolutely no response. Then about 15 seconds later he’s on his knees looking at Tom like he’s seen a ghost. Either he blacked out or he was so badly beaten he couldn’t re-enter the fight. Same thing really and this is frankly a fact because Tom had enough time to set up a killing move.

If you can watch that fight and think he wasn’t injured… idk what to say

@kataraaaa: Goblin did not say anything for 43 seconds so idk what you mean by "no response", why would he be blacked out? Did we see him get knocked out? Nope, all we see is Goblin on his knees, if he was knocked out then they would show us, why just assume he was knocked out if it was never shown?

I said badly injured, Norman clearly wasn't badly injured in that fight unless you can show me a single drop of blood from him.

@jurance: By no response I mean no action taken lol, he didn't get up, he didn't even reach out to Peter, he didn't crawl or anything. There's no way to interpret that.

You don't need to be bleeding to be badly injured, people get KO'd in irl boxing all the time without getting bloodied.

Ironically I’ve told Kataara why this is a terrible metric to grade injuries as it leads to ridiculous conclusions like IW Iron Man has greater AP than CM/Thor/Worthy Steve due to bloodying Thanos.

Idk how you can judge the fight off of that as blood in PG-13 movies are very varied and inconsistent.

That being said,

OT: Tobey high-diff for now

They're both better than GG under bloodlust and beat him under similar circumstances (injured beforehand until rage boost negates it). But Tobey clearly had the superior showing IMO.