Raiden (MGRR) VS Fulgrim (WH40K)

VS

Rules

Raiden (Metal Gear Rising Revengeance) VS Fulgrim (Warhammer 40k)

Full standard gear for both.

Raiden can have feats from other Metal Gear games etc, and Fulgrim from the novels etc.

Battle takes place on the planet Macragge, 50 meters away from each other.

Rounds

Round 1: MGRR Raiden vs Loyalist Fulgrim.

Round 2: MGRR Raiden vs Daemon Primarch Fulgrim.

R1 probably raiden, he's too physically superior for Fulgrim to handle, i think. I have only seen him breakdance with those huge Machines attached to him with wire but that alone displays his physical superiority compared to Fulgrims raw physicals thats described. Fulgrim might win by attrition, if lucky. I may overhype Raiden but i know little about him besides his cinematics in the latest games.

R2 Fulgrim

Edit i placed r2 above r1

R1 Raiden

R2 Raiden, unless you take Dp Fulgrims immortality into account.

Fulgrim both rounds

@mordhauextreme1 said:

callouts

R1: Fulgrim should win handily

R2: Fulgrim stomps

Raiden. Even Fulgrim not tanking a multi thousand tonner who moves hypersonic speeds while wielding a straight Power Weapon. Not happening.

Daemon Fulgrim should wreck.

@kaijuking:

By scaling, is Fulgrim the weakest primarch by far?

When Fulgrim clashes with Ferrus Manus it is described that the power released is equivalent to the destruction of mountains and enough to wipe out entire armies. Raiden can't get over something like that.
In both scenarios, Fulgrim annihilates with a single blow of his sword.

Yes, or maybe Alpharius/Omegon

Uh no. Fulgrim beat Manus ass twice.

@nicov:

When Fulgrim clashes with Ferrus Manus it is described that the power released is equivalent to the destruction of mountains and enough to wipe out entire armies. Raiden can't get over something like that.

Yeah, and yet Primarchs get pin down temporarily by thousand tons of rubble. Even Angron fails to beat to death Kharn who took his beatings and rage, the only son to survive Angron rage beatings. Even Fulgrim had issues beating a Avatar of Kaine, the jobber guys that Space Marines like Calgar beat.

Nice try with the metaphorical/hyperbole in novels though.

@kaijuking: it was a mountain that buried Angron and came out as if nothing. That reinforces what was said xd a primarch was crushed by a mountain and suffered no damage and came out from under it with pure brute force.

On the other hand, saying that each blow is equivalent to the force needed to go down mountains... is not a metaphor.

Edit:
There you go, what is in yellow is a metaphor. In red, the description of the "strength" (the power) liberated in the battle.

@kaijuking said:

Thing is Angron was on his heavily wounded when he was under all the rubble and that was his feat. Fulgrim doesn't necessary have to be as strong as Raiden to win, his reflexes, weaponry, etc is more than capable of killing Raiden. Considering Fulgrim has already killed Eldar Titans in 1 vs 1 combat and cutting them down like swiss cheese. It's not all that impossible for Fulgrim to beat raiden pre-daemon prince level

As for the meta/hyper, I dont think it is either. Problem with warhammer is consistency. Raiden is more consistent, so ill give him that. However again nothing stops Fulgrim from out dueling Raiden and cutting him once only for Raiden to have his soul sucked by the blade he wields

Kharn was pure luck as well, because we both know previous SM's that went in ahead of Kharn ended up dead and Angron already defeated Russ in single combat as well, that is more of a Kharn feat than anti feat for Angron

Chile aren't WH40K characters galaxy level FTL?

@kasya_carey: No, some are, but primarchs aren't. They are FTL overall, but their durability, strengths, and weaponry all vary

You reminded me of this matchup. Thanks. I remember that there it is said that the power released by Fulgrim transcends the realm of the five senses.

@nicov: Yeah and that feat I stated was Pre-Daemon Prince as well, so it counts for round 1.

@nicov:

You reminded me of this matchup. Thanks. I remember that there it is said that the power released by Fulgrim transcends the realm of the five senses.

That feat is meaningless. You cannot possibly calc it.... its not a calculable thing lmao da hell?!

@kaijuking:I could actually just take what other characters do when fighting and compare... But yes, that would be too long, complex (and unnecessary xd) for something that is also never entirely calculable.
What I can say anyway is that Raiden is incapable of doing something like that.

Raiden is barely Supersonic last time I checked right?

Depends. The rain scene in the one boss fight gets up to massive hypersonic speeds when calc.

other times we get super sonic and a statement of just super sonic though this could mean travel speed not combat but matches Grey Fox speed which sounds about right.

So high ends and low ends.

@kasya_carey said:

Raiden is hypersonic, but Fulgrim is faster as hes credited to being the fastest primarch there is from when I last read

This comes from his newer novel which IIRC is 2019 and he has some good speed feats like blowing through glass and moving so fast that he already landed and started moving by the time the sound wave came and hit his ear drums informing him he had again broken the glass.

Other Primarchs have some pretty quick movement speed and travel speeds as well, but again Fulgrim is credited with being the fastest at least in the stats department. He should be more than capable of keeping up with Raiden and out dueling him

@blaze-: personally, I think Fulgrim takes it mid diff, but overall inconsistency for Fulgrim does make it interesting.

Isn't fulgrim immortal or some shit? Anyways probably Raiden thanks to superior speed

Fulgrim is fast, but I don’t think his best speed feats are still anywhere close to Raiden’s. Ya, he caught a bullet, but Raiden can swing his sword like 10-20 times in the time span it took Fulgrim to catch a bullet.

I also don’t think his armor is durable enough to take attacks from Raiden. A sword, without any sort of statements of it being enhanced, was able to get through his armor, by a soldier not nearly as strong or fast as Raiden.

The one thing Fulgrim has, is his regeneration, but I think Raiden would have him hacked into so many pieces so fast that it wouldn’t matter.

I just think Raiden wins based on vastly better stats.

@tparks:

Fulgrim is fast, but I don’t think his best speed feats are still anywhere close to Raiden’s. Ya, he caught a bullet, but Raiden can swing his sword like 10-20 times in the time span it took Fulgrim to catch a bullet.

Bolters are hypersonic by nature, but thats not his most impressive feat, his feat was breaking glass and moving fast enough to where the speed of sound had to catch up to him

I also don’t think his armor is durable enough to take attacks from Raiden. A sword, without any sort of statements of it being enhanced, was able to get through his armor, by a soldier not nearly as strong or fast as Raiden.

Neither is tanking their own weaponry

The one thing Fulgrim has, is his regeneration, but I think Raiden would have him hacked into so many pieces so fast that it wouldn’t matter.

Fulgrim is arguably more skilled

I just think Raiden wins based on vastly better stats.

Raiden's only lead is strength and thats not too far off if that and ofc this is non daemon prince Fulgrim, Daemon Prince fulgrim is another beast but thats not whats being argued here

I've also posted Fulgrim is the fastest out of the primarchs meaning much like San, he sees lasers at a stand still ( this comes from the newer novel so 2019 or so )

@mordhauextreme1:

The glass feat isn’t really enough to say much. It’s kind of up in the air if that feat means anything besides he was moving fast. It didn’t say he was faster then sound, only that he was running before the sound of glass reached his ears, which could be interpreted as he was running before the glass ever touched the ground. That isn’t as good as him catching a bullet.

He’s also fought characters, who aren’t nearly as fast as Raiden, and they did fine against him.

Fulgrim might be more skilled, but skill won’t make up such a large speed gap, and Raiden’s much more unpredictable sword style. The guy switches the sword between each hand and foot, which is something Fulgrim would have never seen before. He would also never have fought against a sword that doesn’t even care about physics, and slices through things the size of small buildings, even though the sword is normal sized.

Raiden is like a 400 tonner. The gap in strength is gigantic

@seastone98 said:

Daemon Prince wise, yes, but standard primarch no. Daemon Prince has various powers to where Raiden's speed wouldn't matter. Primarch Fulgrim is still as fast if not faster than Raiden thanks to be stated to being the fastest primarch. San saw lasers at a stand still which said lasers are las guns which said las guns fire lasers at the speed of light

@mordhauextreme1: You’re using power scaling off of statements based on separate characters, and ignoring that Ferrus Manus was fast enough to fight evenly with him, and Ferrus Manus is like a hundred times slower then Raiden.

@tparks: I don't think it's bad ps because Arkio in the book of the Blood angels mentions that by holding Telestos' spear he could see the shots in slow motion and Arkio with the said spear is inferior to a primarch.
From then on its simply ps, based on the fact that Fulgrim is faster (faster than Arkio with the spear I mean).

@tparks:

The glass feat isn’t really enough to say much. It’s kind of up in the air if that feat means anything besides he was moving fast. It didn’t say he was faster then sound, only that he was running before the sound of glass reached his ears, which could be interpreted as he was running before the glass ever touched the ground. That isn’t as good as him catching a bullet.

This isn't reactionary speed feat this is more of travel speed. The glass falls all the same and its the sound barrier that is the impressive part not necessary breaking glass and moving so "fast" that all the sudden ure taking off before the glass hits the floor. That's something Raiden is more than capable of doing as hes already shown that

He’s also fought characters, who aren’t nearly as fast as Raiden, and they did fine against him.

Whom has he fought that did just fine? Because he fought his best friend twice and won twice ( Ferrus Manus ). Let's note Ferrus was capable of tanking blows that would crush a Titan and his armor was more than durable enough to tank Fulgrim's lesser weaponry which would of easily sliced him had he not been wearing armor

Raiden is like a 400 tonner. The gap in strength is gigantic

I wouldnt say gigantic, considering how strong Ferrus Manus is. However, a simple clash of their weaponry sparked this

However, like I said Raiden is prolly stronger though, but not by much

Fulgrim might be more skilled, but skill won’t make up such a large speed gap, and Raiden’s much more unpredictable sword style.

Speed is about equal, but Raiden being unpredictable is a good point

The guy switches the sword between each hand and foot, which is something Fulgrim would have never seen before.

I wouldn't say its something outside the norm for Fulgrim, but I will agree that it will catch Fulgrim off guard, and that Fulgrim would indeed be prolly amazed at how smooth Raiden does it because.... lets face it raiden is smooth asf when he does it

He would also never have fought against a sword that doesn’t even care about physics, and slices through things the size of small buildings, even though the sword is normal sized.

Slicing through buildings isnt something that is impressive for someone like Fulgrim, hell thats not even impressive for someone like Raiden tbh. However, his sword fighting style would prolly throw fulgrim off

@tparks said:

Ferrus's armor allowed him to tank way more hits from Fulgrim than Fulgrim actually not being able to kill Ferrus, however like I said this is newer novels which means newer feats are being displayed for us. For example the bullet catching feats, his newer novel nothing from his old.

@nicov: But you’re taking hyperbole and using it as a means to make these characters seem the speed of light. Using that type of language is used to describe the rush of battle, not the actual senses of a fight. It’s like a Zack Snyder movie using slow motion for dramatic effect.

Jim Raynor, who is just a normal human in StarCraft, has a part in a book where he stops and admires how pretty lasers are, before he moves out of the way of them. By your logic, Jim Raynor, who is just a guy, can see lasers suspended in air.

It’s just got good evidence. If he had feats and fights to back this up, then those statements could carry more weight, but he doesn’t. If he was that fast, he would have speed blitzed Ferrus Manus, but Ferrus Manus fought evenly with him.

@mordhauextreme1: I’ve read that novel. You’re using hyperbole in a literal manner.

Read my above reply for my thoughts on it. There needs to be actual feats to go along with a claim like this, but there isn’t. Not even close.

And Ferrus Manus should have taken like 100 hits and Fulgrim should have never been touched at all, if he is as fast as you’re claiming him to be. It just doesn’t add up. Fulgrim has speed feats, and they’re just not as fast as Raiden’s. You’re ignoring those, and instead using two statements from two separate authors, and that shouldn’t be you’re baseline to work up from.

@tparks: eeeeehhhh I'm not saying he´s faster than light or even that speed, what I am saying is that it has ps of Arkio watching in slow motion shots (from Bolters) I don't know what exactly that is equivalent to, but as far as I know, it doesn't go below 3 or 4 digits.
About the feats, precisely for that exist the concept of power scaling. To clarify that a character doesn't need to have a certain feat to know he can do it (because assuming the opposite would imply, for example in this case, assuming that a SpaceMarine is faster than a primarch, something that contradicts the entire canon established with words or actions in more than 50 years of franchise)

About the differences... well your answer draws on a lot of different series by different authors from different franchises and from different media xd but speaking more seriously, in Warhammer the canon is wide. I mean, Fulgrim's novel is just as canonical as the Blood Angels novel that I take the feat from. It doesn't matter who wrote it.

@nicov: It does matter who wrote it, because you’re twisting together two different ideas, from two different authors, that were never meant to be placed side by side to determine how fast a character is. There are actual speed feats that can be used instead, but those are being ignored. Regardless if it’s canon or not, which I never argued, it’s just very weak evidence, specially when there are actual speed feats from Fulgrim that can be used instead.

Also, it wasn’t bolted rounds he saw, but lasgun blasts, so you have to be claiming light speed if you want to use this as a legit feat.

Also, it’s just hyperbole anyways. Sanguinius was never FTL, and neither was Arkio when he got a portion of his power.

@tparks: Who is faster, a primarch or a random spacemarine?

I highly doubt MGS Raiden can beat any Primarch. I think even common Space Marines would be a problem for him.

@nicov: You’re question to try and win an argument through a trap, is meaningless, because you’re still referring to a hyperbole statement, from a moment where a blood angel got a portion of power from Sanguinius, and then a hyperbole statement is used by the author. Prove Fulgrim is fast by showing Fulgrim being fast.

@tparks:

Read my above reply for my thoughts on it. There needs to be actual feats to go along with a claim like this, but there isn’t. Not even close.

As I said scaling can be implied here as well, the newer novel you read? Because we both know SM's are more than capable of basically doing what Fulgrim has already done, and that's my point. A space marine with a fraction of a primach's power was capable of witnessing what happened that isn't hyperbole

And Ferrus Manus should have taken like 100 hits and Fulgrim should have never been touched at all, if he is as fast as you’re claiming him to be.

What feats suggest Ferrus is suddenly slow?

'Surrender to me.' The Gardinaal looked back, his dead face inscrutable. 'No.' Anger hissed through Ferrus' lips. It had been explained to him that men blinded by rage saw red. Ferrus Manus was not a man. And when he looked upon the Gardinaal, carrying his sovereign defiance all the way to the foot of his throne, he saw only silver. An argent flash spread through the haze as one of Strachaan's weapons systems discharged. It appeared to drag as Ferrus focused on it, crawling from the emitter cell in the Gardinaal's shoulder as if blunted by the primarch's gaze. Time slowed to a stop. Fury cooled, hardened, cladding Ferrus' heart and muscles in an aching chill. He saw the particle lash begin to accelerate. He threw out a hand and caught it. Incandescent sparks sprayed across the dais as the beam exploded in his grip. The liquid metal sizzled angrily, churning, diluting the reddened metal around his fist with fresh silver as the last sparks sputtered through his fingers. Amar, a primarch's reflexes from receiving a particle lash to the face, blinked in hollow-eyed surprise. 'Leave us,' Ferrus hissed, as Strachaan began deploying additional hidden weapons systems.

-Warhammer 40k: Ferrus Manus: Gorgon of Medusa

We don't know how much faster Fulgrim is. We don't even know necessary how wide the gap is before. Like I said new lore is being presented. The fastest primarch was credited to Konrad Curze, but with that new book out. This has changed, unless there's another book you read within 2019/2020 and on that states otherwise? Ferrus isn't obviously known for his excellent speed, but he wasn't exactly slow as the feat up above shows. That came from a newer level again and is after Fulgrim's own novel. New lore is being produced and the Primarchs are getting stronger generally speak ( Vulkan got stronk asf ). Ferrus also knew Fulgrim as well as they were extremely close friends. It could fall under a similar manner of Obi wan and Anakin. Anakin was thee superior fighter, but he was kinda handicap as well, even if he wasn't though Obi Wan could of held out for a bit cause he knew anakin quite well. We also know Durge within the series also stated Anakin was THEE fastest jedi he had ever fought. This would also include Obi wan since the two had fought before as well. I'm not claiming Ferrus and Fulgrim were obi wan and anakin close or such, but they were best friends and had fought at least once before as many of the primarchs have as well and I'm sure Ferrus was no idiot.

Bottom line is Ferrus has almost no speed feats, he has some strengths, but none to suggest he was suddenly super slow especially with the feat I posted up above. However, his only real speed feats are basically scaling off of Fulgrim

It just doesn’t add up. Fulgrim has speed feats, and they’re just not as fast as Raiden’s.

As I mentioned before movement speed hes obviously raiden's league. Reactionary speed, Raiden is quick, but from all the feats that Fulgrim has plus scaling, there's nothing to really suggest Raiden is indeed faster

You’re ignoring those, and instead using two statements from two separate authors, and that shouldn’t be you’re baseline to work up from.

There's more like him cutting a bullet in half and so on. My baseline didn't come from Fulgrim being based off of scaling right away. As I said Fulgrim lacks feats in general, so applying one book and not the other along with any real feats is going to have to be used here. In every series especially with SC ure going to have multiple authors put out multiple stuff, and vague characters like Fulgrim aren't going to have a ton of feats. The feats he does have suggest he's more than capable of reacting to Raiden.

Ill read above last ill respond to ur comment first

Jim Raynor, who is just a normal human in StarCraft, has a part in a book where he stops and admires how pretty lasers are, before he moves out of the way of them. By your logic, Jim Raynor, who is just a guy, can see lasers suspended in air.

I've read that as well, thing is unlike Jim. Said space marine was already amped via touching San's staff. Thats why its different. If Jim had touched lets say Kerrigan's cut off wing and suddenly was able to witness his rounds move in slow motion is he amped or not amped? Is he not or is he being affected by Kerrigan's wing?

I mean the quote makes it quite obvious what exactly happens, there's nothing hyperbole about it

The Spear of Telesto worked and Arkio felt as if he were merely a vessel for the weapon, like the igniter for an explosive power so far beyond him as to be unimaginable. And yet, every second the weapon sang in his grip, and the teardrop blade brought ruin to hundreds of Traitor Marines, he felt himself changing. Power the likes of which he had never dared imagine coursed through Arkio, and his mind struggled to grasp it. The closest thing he could approximate it with was his rebirth when he left the sarcophagus on Baal for the first time, but even that was a pale shadow compared to the majestic force running through him now. He was a hundred feet tall. He could see the passage of bolts and laser blasts as if they were suspended in the air. He was invincible. By the lords, he was godlike."

-Warhammer 40k: Deus Encarmine

However, lets break it down

• Feels as if the weapon is using him. We all know weapons don't use people, but this prolly means he felt like the power of San was running through him. However it is entirely possible POSSIBLE that this could of indeed happened in a similar manner. Reason being is for example in WHF Elector counts have their runefangs, runefangs basically allow Elector counts to hit above their pay grade, because it is channeling all the past elector counts/warriors who used it into said sword like some avatar state wombo jumbo stuff and basically instead of auto aims or aim bot for a gun, its basically the same, but for a sword, so which ever you wanna choose we can go from there
• Secondly, No space marine except for people like possibly Kharn, are ripping through hundreds of space marines effortlessly in a second, never in a million years unless said person is using warp powers. Which again suggests that he's not in control or that hes being amped as stated before
• Thirdly, power that hes never felt. Which means the weapon is flowing through him and granting him power

Now I'll stop for here for now, as the rest of the quote u already know. However, the point is. One feat is an outliner an the character was never amped nor changed. The other was changed and or amped. That's the difference and thats why it matters. Primarchs 99% of the time out do their own chapter of space marines, by a huge margin. We saw what San could do and we also know hes more than capable of moving at high speeds as well. However there are cases he shouldn't be getting tagged logically either.

Nevertheless there are also cases where Raiden shouldn't be getting tagged as well, and yet he does by people MUCH slower than lets say rockets, bullets, etc. As I mentioned though up above,

As for the meta/hyper, I dont think it is either. Problem with warhammer is consistency. Raiden is more consistent, so ill give him that. However again nothing stops Fulgrim from out dueling Raiden and cutting him once only for Raiden to have his soul sucked by the blade he wields

@tparks: It's a simple question. Who is faster, a primarch or a random space marine? There is no trap here, rather, if you answer what your arguments indicate, you should say that it is the space marine because for you the canon does not exist and everything is hyperbole.
On the other hand, if you know even 1% of warhammer you will know that absolutely every existing source of material indicates that a space marine does not have the slightest chance of surpassing a primarch in anything, (but to support that you need to use "material from many authors and from many sources") and that collapses the nonsense that it is not valid because another guy wrote it xd
What you call trick question is simply a logical derivation of what you yourself defend here.

@nicov: It’s a trick question, because you’re trying to make it seem like if I say a Primarch is faster, then your example would mean all Primarchs are faster then Arkio. Even though that statement was just hyperbole, and Arkio had a portion of power of a Primarch.

Also, you’re talk about sources of material makes it seem like you think Warhammer is an exception to other fictions that are written exactly like it, like DC and Marvel are. There are tons of inconsistencies between writers at Marvel and DC, and those inconsistencies matter there too. You don’t just ignore it, and go based on whatever you want to make look more powerful at the time. 40K’s writing isn’t that unique. The series is unique, since it encompasses so many different forms of media, but that doesn’t mean you just ignore common sense and logic when it comes to multiple authors that wrote separate lines of text from separate books, spaced 5 years apart, that were never meant to be placed side by side to make it seem like Fulgrim is faster then someone who can see lasers motionless. That’s such an odd way to find speed, when Fulgrim has his own speed feats that can be used. The problem there is, if you use Fulgrim’s speed feats, then you have to admit he’s not as fast as Raiden, because his speed feats aren’t nearly as fast you’re making Fulgrim out to be.

You’re also still basing all of this around a statement of hyperbole anyways.