Rage Amped Luke (ROTJ) vs Office Palpatine (ROTS)

Fight takes place in Palpatine's office 30 feet apart Luke is dark side/rage amped like in ROTJ and stays in that mode the entire fight Sheev is in character same as when he was in the office duel. Cannon feats and scaling only for this fight.

Bump

I don't think Palps Lightning gets significantly more powerful from ROTS to ROTJ so I'd still say Palps wins that way eventually, if he just doesn't win in Lightsaber combat.

Bump.

There is nothing specific that says he does in canon, but logic would indicate it did. Palpatine had decades to hone his craft and fully research the dark side, something he did not have during the prequels. Stands to reason he did get stronger.

However, Canon Luke has some of the best force feats in canon, pre-ROTJ.

Would have to back Luke here personally.

What happens to Luke is detailed in the second clip of the OP.

Base Luke wins and Sidious is fractionally slower from Dark Side degradation

...Please tell me this is Canon, not Legends. If it's Legends, he gets annihilated.

Palpatine.

Canon really has Luke with 2 years of training above Anakin and Mace, yikes.

Sheev. Luke‘s strength could be a problem but Sidious has every other advantage

Even with the most absurd Vader scaling you can imagine, Luke gets utterly spanked.

OP says Cannon feats and scaling only for this fight.

Oh, thank God.

Luke still gets annihilated.

Disney Star Wars Canon:

Yoda trains, leads, and studies the way of the Jedi for 900 years.

Luke trains for 2 years.

Luke stomps Sidious who was even with Yoda in ROTS.

Meanwhile, people who possess the ability think and reason:

Sidious, who was even with Yoda, stomps Luke.

OT: Palpatine with ease. .

Luke should wreck

@lightordark: Fiction doesn't follow real world logic like that.

Luke as of ROTJ has trained 4 years not 2.

^ This.

Sidious killed 3 Grievous' level masters in seconds, he wins.

@crclopezos: What puts Saesee Tin and Agen Kolar at Grievous level?

Luke dies.

In legends Luke is stomped.

In canon they fucked up the scaling and made Luke somehow top tier with next to no experience lol. So as little sense as it makes, the guy that struggled with a Rancor and some pirates could beat ROTS Sidious.

So, I posted a salty (logical) response earlier, but now I will give it a fair look.

Even with current Disney scaling that (wants to) put Luke at Prime Vader level, he still loses this fight objectively for one major reason that may be controversial.

There is no hard evidence that proves Luke can block force lightning as of ROTJ. In fact, the novel states that he is unsuccessful blocking Sidious’s lightning with one saying he isn’t even aware of the ability.

The first scan my be legends, I’m not sure, but it actually is a better showing for Luke. The second scan is canon for sure.

Anyway, the point is Luke is unsuccessful blocking Sidious’s lightning. Now you may say that ROTJ Sidious‘s lightning is stronger than Sidious in ROTS.

This unfortunately is a flawed argument because we know that Sidious wasn’t holding back against Yoda in ROTS, and it is argued that he was holding back against Luke in ROTJ.

He states in ROTS, “Now you will experience the full power of the dark side.” Palpatine considered Yoda a legitimate threat, and didn’t hold back. He even tried to run away, Yoda disarmed him during their dual, and there is a lot of the fight that suggests Yoda was evenly matched or above Sidious.

Sidious didn’t consider Luke a threat in ROTJ. The evidence is overwhelming.

Now you may say that Luke has a saber in this fight, and he could block it with his saber. This is not a given since TCW proves that blocking lightning is a skill that must be learned, not just something you can do because you’re holding a lightsaber.

Savage doesn’t know how to block lightning, and he cannot block Dooku’s lightning with his saber in the second scene.

You cannot apply a skill to the great and powerful Luke Skywalker just because, and even if you take that route, consider the following.

Mace blocked Force lightning with his saber in ROTS, but not entirely. He was still hurt by it.

Mace’s saber wasn’t enough to completely block Sidious’s lightning, so even if Luke could block it, he is still going to get hurt by it, and the text says “badly.”

ROTS Vader couldn’t block the lightning entirely with his saber, and there is a comic scan to confirm it.

Luke may be a good dualist, but his one showing as of ROTJ against force lightning shows it’s too much for him. He doesn’t necessarily know how to block it with a saber, and even if he does, he can’t block it entirely. He isn’t good enough in sabers to kill Sidious quickly, so he eventually gets wounded enough by lightning to give Palpatine the upper hand.

Using Disney canon, Luke dies. Sidious wins.

My bad. Logic dictates that Sidious stomps, but I posted above why Sidious legitimately wins.

@lightordark:

Yoda trained for hundreds of years. That didn't stop Dooku, who has only trained a fraction of that time, from giving him a good fight.

Sidious who has trained for even less time, also matched him.

Dooku's experience didn't stop Anakin from overpowering him.

Qui Gon's greater experience over Maul didn't stop him from losing.

Experience is vastly overrated. Countless examples in SW of less experienced fighters beating more experienced.

Wrong.

You realize that Yoda struggled with pirates too in the latest Yoda issue? In fact, he was nearly killed by them. That's not looking good for Sidious if we are going to use low feats...

@frozen: I meant the post above my response to you. Sorry. I feel like I laid out a pretty good case.

I'll reply to that later, but I essentially disagree with all of it. Blocking ligtning with a saber isn't a special skill. And we have quotes confirming that Sidious feared ROTJ Luke.

Don’t tell Rex that.

You disagree with the canon text evidence I provided? Should be interesting.

I don't disagree with the text, but the way you've applied it and concessions you've come to. Namely that a toying ROTJ Sidious is ~ ROTS all out Sidious. There's nothing to suggest this, and the scaling suggests that ROTS is only but a fraction of ROTJ Sheev's power. If your argument was that ROTJ Luke couldn't deflect ROTJ Sheev's lightning, I'd actually be inclined to agree based on the Mace example. However ROTJ Sheev is far more powerful than ROTS, and thus his ligtning would be. If deflecting lightning is a skill that has to be learned, then this doesn't explain how Rey was able to do this. Considering there's nothing to suggest that her amp pertained to inheriting the skills of every jedi (only canon evidence is that she inherited their power). Or how AOTC Obi did this against Dooku, despite later TCW Obi struggling against Savage.

If AOTC Obi was hit by ROTS Sheev's lightning, he would struggle to block it with his saber far more than if he was hit by Dooku's. This is because power in the force determines the power of lightning. So scaling chain would be ROTJ Sheev >>>> ROTS Sheev >>>> ROTS Dooku. ROTJ Luke is far beyond ROTS Sheev in the force.

If we are also going down the training route, ROTJ Luke is already acknowledged as being a "master of the force":

Your Vader example is also faulty. Vader immediately after ROTS was weaker than before.

@frozen said:

@lightordark said:

@frozen said:

@lightordark said:

@frozen: I meant the post above my response to you. Sorry. I feel like I laid out a pretty good case.

but I essentially disagree with all of it.

You disagree with the canon text evidence I provided? Should be interesting.

I don't disagree with the text, but the way you've applied it and concessions you've come to. Namely that a toying ROTJ Sidious is ~ ROTS all out Sidious. There's nothing to suggest this, and the scaling suggests that ROTS is only but a fraction of ROTJ Sheev's power. If your argument was that ROTJ Luke couldn't deflect ROTJ Sheev's lightning, I'd actually be inclined to agree based on the Mace example. However ROTJ Sheev is far more powerful than ROTS, and thus his ligtning would be. If deflecting lightning is a skill that has to be learned, then this doesn't explain how Rey was able to do this. Considering there's nothing to suggest that her amp pertained to inheriting the skills of every jedi (only canon evidence is that she inherited their power). Or how AOTC Obi did this against Dooku, despite later TCW Obi struggling against Savage.

If AOTC Obi was hit by ROTS Sheev's lightning, he would struggle to block it with his saber far more than if he was hit by Dooku's. This is because power in the force determines the power of lightning. So scaling chain would be ROTJ Sheev >>>> ROTS Sheev >>>> ROTS Dooku. ROTJ Luke is far beyond ROTS Sheev in the force.

If we are also going down the training route, ROTJ Luke is already acknowledged as being a "master of the force":

Your Vader example is also faulty. Vader immediately after ROTS was weaker than before.

ROTS Sidious used such an incredible amount of force power against Mace that he visibly aged in front of Anakin.

Since you cannot quantify his lightnings power, I’d argue that the instance against Mace is his strongest display. Maybe is his way stronger in ROTJ, but he doesn’t exert nearly as much effort against Luke, and he doesn’t age.

Rey had the ancient Jedi texts at the end of TLJ. She could have learned the skill in those texts. I don’t think that is incredibly far-fetched.

Dooku wasn’t trying to overpower Kenobi, and he has an incredible lightning feat against Ventress, effectively one-shotting her.

And here we hit yet another conundrum in the scaling chain. Not only did Luke surpass everyone in the PT in less than five years of inconsistent training, he mastered the force and passed his teacher, Yoda, in his ROTS prime, which means he passed ROTS Sidious and Anakin.

I want to make sure everyone is good with this nonsense by stating it clearly.

“Scaling” dictates that ROTJ Luke is more powerful than everyone except ROTJ Sidious.

This is the most utterly ridiculous thought in SW lore, of course, but you’re doubling down on it hard.

@lightordark:

You keep bringing up the absurdity of Luke surpassing Yoda despite less training and yet you never have this same standard for other examples of less experience beating out more experienced. Since you didn't respond to my earlier examples, I'll post them again:

• Anakin went from massively sub Yoda (AOTC) to Yoda tier (ROTS). This isn't just the case in Disney canon, it's a position held by George Lucas and its firmly entrenched in legends too. Since you used a legends source earlier and keep appealing to GL, I figured you would take no issue with this
• Anakin also surpasses Dooku, despite having a fraction of his experience
• Anakin is on par with Sidious in ROTS, despite again, having a fraction of his experience. Stated both in Legends and canon
• Dooku gives Yoda a good fight in AOTC, despite having hundreds of years less experience
• Sidious reaches Yoda's level, despite again, having hundreds of years less experience
• Darth Maul defeats Qui Gon Jinn, despite being some 30 years his junior
• Rey becomes a peer of Kylo within a week

I can keep going. The fact is that you're acting as if Luke reaching such a level is absurd when we have countless examples of experience not meaning shit. Luke has considerable force potential, was taught by wiser versions of Obi and Yoda and wasn't held back the way Anakin was. Anakin in canon was actually held back, and Obi Wan confirms this in the From A Certain Point of View novel.

And where are you getting the idea that Dooku wasn't trying to hurt Obi? Complete head canon. He attacked him to down him, yet Obi easily blocked.

The reason he doesn't age in ROTJ is because he was using the dark side to conceal his appearance in ROTS. He no longer needs to do this in ROTJ.

@frozen: Disagree with Kylo and Rey. Even though they were evenly matched in strength, Kylo was a much better fighter, for example Kylo was fighting 3 guards at the same time, while Rey suffered from only one.

But I agree that Luke in just 1 year, went from being slightly stronger than the GI, to being at the level of the stronger Jedis.