Rage amp ROTJ Luke vs ROTJ Sidious (sabers)

  • 68 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#1 frozen  Moderator

ROTJ Luke (rage)

No Caption Provided

ROTJ Sidious

No Caption Provided

Rules

  • Sabers only
  • Luke is rage amped
  • Start 10 feet apart
  • Disney canon
Avatar image for calclord
calclord

1360

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen: Luke has better stats. Where would you place him as a duelist?

Avatar image for greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

12832

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Sheev should be fine leveraging his vastly better power against Luke inferior skills to simply outstat him

Avatar image for mr-yes
mr-yes

5024

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Sheev probably murders.

Avatar image for maulsmacker
MaulSmacker

7867

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Luke is stronger in raw power, if you think otherwise then you're just coping.

Sidious is the more skilled duelist but Skill doesn't amount to much as shown over and over and over again throughout the last 45 years of SW, Overall Luke wins, it's pretty clear cut now.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#6 frozen  Moderator

@maulsmacker:

Do you think Vader scaling near to Sidious means Rage Luke >> Sidious?

Avatar image for maulsmacker
MaulSmacker

7867

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@frozen:

More or less, Rage! Luke > Sidious >~ Vader ~ Base Luke is the current scale.

Avatar image for nassergrant19
nassergrant19

30478

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

Luke is stronger in raw power, if you think otherwise then you're just coping.

Sidious is the more skilled duelist but Skill doesn't amount to much as shown over and over and over again throughout the last 45 years of SW, Overall Luke wins, it's pretty clear cut now.

Avatar image for dippy
Dippy

68

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Palpatine easily.

Avatar image for darthadi
DarthAdi

2368

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#10  Edited By DarthAdi

Sidious, more power and probably at least similar skill.

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

The only way Luke wins is if you’re willing to accept that Palps has declined, and I don't think anyone is willing to admit that.

You can’t get ROTJ Luke to Prime Sidious level (even in sabers) without a hefty amount of delusion. There is a direct quote locking Luke below Kenobi and Yoda.

Avatar image for catman6
CatMan6

819

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

not sure. I'll have to think this one through

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#13  Edited By frozen  Moderator
@lightordark said:

The only way Luke wins is if you’re willing to accept that Palps has declined, and I don't think anyone is willing to admit that.

You can’t get ROTJ Luke to Prime Sidious level (even in sabers) without a hefty amount of delusion. There is a direct quote locking Luke below Kenobi and Yoda.

You are confusing skill with augmentation. Luke with the Rage amp beat a far stronger Vader than the one Obi fought in a fraction of the time Obi did. Therefore the quote is referring to skill, not augmentation.

In fact, Luke basically loses a lot of skill with his rage amp, yet beats Vader far more quickly than he did with his baseline power.

Similarly, Vader’s physical strength is far above the likes of Mace Windu.

Avatar image for masterbuster666
MasterBuster666

7358

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Papa Sheev ftw!

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#15 frozen  Moderator

@frozen:

More or less, Rage! Luke > Sidious >~ Vader ~ Base Luke is the current scale.

Papa Sheev ftw!

I sense some disagreement. More in depth Reasoning?

Avatar image for dark_globe
dark_globe

1307

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By dark_globe

RoTJ luke/RoTJ vader wank is getting out of hand .

i will use your own logic against you :

if you want to play the "augmentation" card - luke doesn´t have better augmentation than MFV
(because it is simply impossible since nobody has more potential and stronger force connection and raw power
than rage amped/dark side fueled anakin has) .

furthermore if you say MFV have lost to MFK not because MFV was nerfed
but rather because obi-wan got vastly more powerful after "letting go"
than RoTJ luke is forever locked below MFK in sabers
(since MFK was able to deal with MFVs force augmentation and rage just fine
(luke doesn´t have better physical stats/augmentation than MFV and he is certainly not a better duelist either)
and sidious is much more powerful than kenobi
so there is no reason to believe palps would have any problem with lukes "augmentation" (raw power) in a duel ,

so now we get to the logical conclusion :
RoTJ sidious curbs MFK (as i hope we can all agree he would)
and thus in extention he also stomps RoTJ luke and RoTJ vader in all out and wins handily in sabers .
(the fact unexperienced luke matched vader in sabers
also forever locks suit vader below MFK and MFV as a duelist) .

the only fighters that stand any sort of chance against 100% serious sidious in sabers
are yoda , windu and KFV and maybe BoBF luke .
while RoTJ sidious dominates all of them with the force
(he would not even bother to go for sabers anymore realistically) .
and even in sabers alone i don´t see RoTJ luke lasting for long against sheev .

Avatar image for therevaniter
TheRevaniter

262

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I don’t see why Luke doesn’t get curbstomped here

Avatar image for maulsmacker
MaulSmacker

7867

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@dark_globe: I see you're still parading the dishonest nonsense I whipped you for, don't worry, should be easy to dismantle.

RoTJ luke/RoTJ vader wank is getting out of hand .

Nah, it's just so finished for prequel characters, people are just recongnizing it.

i will use your own logic against you :

Here we go with you making dishonest assertions just to pass them off ss "LoGiC" which are only logical in your head, nowhere else.

if you want to play the "augmentation" card - luke doesn´t have better augmentation than MFV

more or less, Luke slaps MFV's saber out of his hand, the gap there is tremendous, KFV is better but KFV gets beaten too because of just how much more powerful Luke is.

(because it is simply impossible since nobody has more potential and stronger force connection and raw power

fanfiction tier.

Luke doesn't have Jedi Restraints, Luke doesn't have a decade of emotional frustrations, Luke had better teachers, Luke faced the force wave and circumstance made Luke Grow faster than Anakin, That's why a 23 year old Luke was stronger than Anakin ever was.

than rage amped/dark side fueled anakin has) .

Man, you just say shit about star wars without actually knowing anything and somehow trying passing off your yapping as logical

furthermore if you say MFV have lost to MFK not because MFV was nerfed

MFV is still way stronger than Kenobi, Kenobi just giving space allowed him to stand upto MFV until he could get a kill hit.

but rather because obi-wan got vastly more powerful after "letting go"

MFK's powers were equivalent to pre hole Kenobi who got force abused and beaten casually by OWK Vader, Luke would handwave MFK in power.

than RoTJ luke is forever locked below MFK in sabers

ROTJ Luke stomps MFK, far too strong, MFV was easily superior to MFK physically

(since MFK was able to deal with MFVs force augmentation and rage just fine

MFK<=MFV<<ROTS Sidious<<ROTJ Luke=<ROTJ Sidious

(luke doesn´t have better physical stats/augmentation than MFV)

Luke is faster, stronger, more durable and stronger in the force and a more level headed fighter than KFV is, let alone MFV

and sidious is much more powerful than kenobi

ROTJ Sidious isn't much more powerful than ROTJ Luke, infact he is barely even stronger, while Kenobi won't be able to face ROTS sidious, just shows how much better Luke is.

so there is no reason to believe he would have any problem with lukes "augmentation" (raw power) in a duel ,

the thing is if KFV is a 5-6 in power then MFV is a 4, MFK is a 3, Luke is a 10, so he is way more powerful, Skill stops working when you're facing someone so much stronger, and Luke won't make mistakes like Anakin did.

MFV is also more skilled duelist in comparison to RoTJ luke)

MFV is just more skilled, even then ROTJ Vader is confirmed to be a better duelist than KFV and MFV, RoTJ luke is too strong for KFV to beat.

so now we get to the logical conclusion :

*The Illiterate conclusion

RoTJ sidious curbs MFK (as i hope we can all agree he would)

ROTJ Sidious low diffs everyone in Prequels, so ROTJ Vader and Luke, who scale near ROTJ sidious, would mid diff everyone in prequels

and thus in extention he also stomps RoTJ luke and RoTJ vader in all out and wins handily in sabers .

No, because as shown he can't stomp Vader in anything, all power of Palpatine was straight up blocked by Vader with one hand after vader more or less no sold ROTJ Sidious's strongest move, Luke scales

(the fact unexperienced luke matched vader in sabers

Anakin got clapped by Dooku victim and someone grevious can preassure, nice ignoring context no? Luke has zero anti feats, Luke is just better than you want him to be.

also forever locks suit vader below MFK and MFV as a duelist) .

in an illiterate's head with no critical thinking, maybe, nobody logical would hold that stance, though

the only fighters that stand any sort of chance against 100% serious sidious in sabers

are yoda , windu and KFV and maybe BoBF luke .

LMFAO

Yoda, Windu and KFV are too weak to stand upto ROTJ Sidious, Luke is too strong for the titans, just let it go, ROTJ Titans >>> ROTS Titans

while RoTJ sidious dominates all of them with the force

Yea easily.

(he would not even bother to go for sabers anymore realistically) .

that he won't, but considering Luke can probably straight up block Palpatine's 100% lightning with a saber, he would be forced to duel Luke if he wanna win

and even in sabers alone i don´t see RoTJ luke lasting for long against sheev

He would be a even split with Sidious in sabers as of ROTJ, would probably straight up win the duel with rage amp.

Avatar image for maulsmacker
MaulSmacker

7867

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@frozen said:
@maulsmacker said:

@frozen:

More or less, Rage! Luke > Sidious >~ Vader ~ Base Luke is the current scale.

@masterbuster666 said:

Papa Sheev ftw!

I sense some disagreement. More in depth Reasoning?

Easy to address.

Rage! ROTJ Luke beat ROTJ Vader and overpowered him pretty decisively, that's a better feat than anything ROTJ Sidious did duelling wise.

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

RoTJ luke/RoTJ vader wank is getting out of hand

This is true 100%.

@frozen said:
@lightordark said:

The only way Luke wins is if you’re willing to accept that Palps has declined, and I don't think anyone is willing to admit that.

You can’t get ROTJ Luke to Prime Sidious level (even in sabers) without a hefty amount of delusion. There is a direct quote locking Luke below Kenobi and Yoda.

You are confusing skill with augmentation. Luke with the Rage amp beat a far stronger Vader than the one Obi fought in a fraction of the time Obi did. Therefore the quote is referring to skill, not augmentation.

In fact, Luke basically loses a lot of skill with his rage amp, yet beats Vader far more quickly than he did with his baseline power.

Similarly, Vader’s physical strength is far above the likes of Mace Windu.

I don’t think I am confusing skill and augmentation. Zonakin/Dooku was the absolute best example of augmentation vs skill. Anakin’s strikes (while he was still Jedi Anakin) were aging Dooku decades. Blocking one took more effort than him throwing Kenobi across the room and pushing the balcony on him.

That isn’t canon anymore. Zonakin isn’t canon anymore. Anakin no longer no-diffs Dooku in canon. Dark side Anakin merely beats him. Here is the explanation:

No Caption Provided

Focused rage allowed him to move faster and faster until he cut off Dooku’s hands.

Without the explanation in the Stover novel, there isn’t as strong of evidence that augmentation is going to overcome skill. If you have an example as good as the now legends novel, then I am willing to look at it.

We have a statement from a very new canonical source that Luke is not as skillful as Obi Wan or Yoda In sabers. Vader was conflicted in ROTJ, so Luke doesn’t scale to him implicitly.

Vader is canonical surprised by Luke’s final attack in ROTJ.

No Caption Provided

The text states that “one of Luke’s blows landed on Vader’s wrist,” which doesn’t promote the idea of skill for Luke. It makes it sound like he was just thrashing, which you’ve suggested, too, by saying Luke isn’t as skillful when raged.

So, I stick to my previous statement. The only way Luke beats Sidious is if you're willing to say Sidious has declined.

Luke doesn’t scale to ROTJ Vader because of Vader’s conflict. Luke is canonically less than Obi Wan and Yoda in sabers, and we have lost a key passage about augmentation of sabers now that the Stover novel is legends.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#21 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Yeah, all of that is wrong. We have canon novels which talk about how the dark side improves augmentation (DD explicitly says it) + many sources saying Anakin used the dark side to destroy Dooku in 12 seconds (12 seconds is an outright stomp, no way around that).

Gonna reply to all this in 10 mins.

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Yeah, all of that is wrong. We have canon novels which talk about how the dark side improves augmentation (DD explicitly says it) + many sources saying Anakin used the dark side to destroy Dooku in 12 seconds (12 seconds is an outright stomp, no way around that).

Gonna reply to all this in 10 mins.

I didn’t expect you to agree.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#23 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Well it’s not about agreeing, it’s about what the evidence says. I will drop my post soon all with sources.

Avatar image for normanale835
normanale835

466

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Sidious wins.

The darkside is stronger

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Well it’s not about agreeing, it’s about what the evidence says. I will drop my post soon all with sources.

I definitely posted evidence, too. Also, just so we get this on the table, all that dark side augmentation is fine, but it didn’t make a difference in the Palpatine/Yoda fight or the OWK Vader/Kenobi fight, or the ROTS Mustafar fight. The Jedi were having no trouble keeping up with Darkside augmentation, and I think you believe Palpatine was stronger than Yoda in ROTS, Vader was stronger than Kenobi in OWK, and Anakin was stronger than Kenobi in ROTS.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#26 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

I will explain soon why rage! Luke is much better than Obi Wan.

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

I will explain soon why rage! Luke is much better than Obi Wan.

Well, I look forward to it. If Raged Anakin couldn’t break Kenobi‘s saber defense, then I have no idea how you’re going to explain that Luke could.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#28 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark: Going to drop the post soon, but the Vader in ROTJ is multiple gaps above the one in OWK. Confirmed in canon.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#29  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

don’t think I am confusing skill and augmentation. Zonakin/Dooku was the absolute best example of augmentation vs skill.

There’s a difference between pure skill and augmentation. Cin Drailing is stated to be the best swordsman of the order, yet he was curbstomped by Knightfall Anakin. Does this mean that Cin Drailing is Yoda tier in duelling because he’s stated to be unparalleled? The answer is no, because force augmented stats make a big difference in overall duelling prowess.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Whether by his own abilities or thanks to his teacher, Drallig ended up becoming the best swordsman in the entire Order. After attaining the rank of Jedi Master, he led the guard at the Coruscant Jedi Temple, training new generations of Jedi in lightsaber combat. His character and teaching method earned him the unloving nickname of "the trolls."`

|| Encyclopedia de Agostini: Ahsoka Tano

Anakin’s strikes (while he was still Jedi Anakin) were aging Dooku decades. Blocking one took more effort than him throwing Kenobi across the room and pushing the balcony on him.

The issue is you’re under the assumption that Dooku is more skilled than Anakin. I would like to see why you think this to be the case. Anakin is very much > Dooku in skill and augmentation.

That isn’t canon anymore. Zonakin isn’t canon anymore. Anakin no longer no-diffs Dooku in canon. Dark side Anakin merely beats him. Here is the explanation:

Nah, Zonakin near stomped Dooku. We don’t need Stover’s novel for this. Once he embraces the dark side, the fight is over in 12 seconds. This is the definition of a near stomp. The canon sources also all state that Anakin was much more powerful than Dooku. All of this is consistent. We know he used the dark side:

No Caption Provided

And we know other canon sources affirm that he was simply far more powerful than Dooku with the dark side:

Focused rage allowed him to move faster and faster until he cut off Dooku’s hands.

Without the explanation in the Stover novel, there isn’t as strong of evidence that augmentation is going to overcome skill. If you have an example as good as the now legends novel, then I am willing to look at it.

It’s the dark side which improves force augmentation. Outright stated in Dark Disciple that he is moving faster than she had ever seen him move. And that his blows were augmented to the extent that they seemed “effortless”. Recall that Ventress had way better feats, scaling and hype than Vos before DD. He is literally just a random Jedi master who quickly surpassed someone who had spent years fighting Obi Wan and Anakin (Dooku says he is better than her later on). All that training, skill etc she had only for Vos to be described as “effortless”.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

We have a statement from a very new canonical source that Luke is not as skillful as Obi Wan or Yoda In sabers. Vader was conflicted in ROTJ, so Luke doesn’t scale to him implicitly. Vader is canonical surprised by Luke’s final attack in ROTJ.

Yeah, you actually just proved my point to be honest. You’re saying he loses skill due to the rage amp, yet in spite of that skill loss, beats Vader far more quickly than he did when he was calm and more skill full. Therefore, being less skilled than Obi Wan is irrelevant. Why does it even matter? Rage Luke isn’t even characterised as skillfull. He’s outright stated as swinging like a mad man:

No Caption Provided

But he can get away with this because he’s just so overwhelmingly powerful. He is more powerful and effective than his calm Jedi self.

Vader being surprised probably gives him a bit more time, at least.

The Vader that Luke beat multiple gaps above the one Obi Wan beat

You would have to prove that Vader‘s conflict made him drop multiple tiers. Because force wave Vader is >>>>> OWK Vader. We can quantify this through the fact that he’s far above Exogol Vader.

In Darth Vader #11, Palpatine and Vader have a battle over the summa verminoth. Regardless of whether or not it was TP or TK, the fact remains that Sidious won and was clearly superior. In the following issue, the crawl states that Sidious showed Vader a “mere glimpse” of his power when doing this. This “mere glimpse” is enough to make Vader kneel.

No Caption Provided

Sheev’s immense superiority is only re-affirmed in how he casually tanks and aborbs the kyber explosion that is making Vader scream in agony:

The following issue re-affirms that Vader is beginning to comprehend the extent of the emperor’s vast power. He only saw a glimpse of his power. And now knows he is capable of much more than that.

No Caption Provided

This glimpse was enough to be > Exogol Vader. So the current scale is Full power Exogol Sheev >>>>>> Exogol Sheev using a fraction of his power >> Exogol Vader.

Quantifying that growrh

Flash forward to Darth Vader #40 and we see that Vader is close to Sheev at his best, refer to thread below:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/palpatine-and-darth-vader-are-relative-darth-vader-2323807/

Vader has grown stronger due to the force wave and his hatred/focus, as noted by Sidious. Given that Vader is not that far off Sidious, it means that he must be far above the toying Sidious that used a fraction of his power to beat Vader on Exogol. Which means that current Vader is a stomp gap or two above Exogol Vader, who was no match for a Sidious using a fraction of his power.

Current Sidous > Current Vader >>>>>> Exogol Sidious using fraction of his power >> Exogol Vader

You would have to prove that Vader was mega conflicted during this moment he defended from Luke’s attack. The canon junior novel for ROTJ states that Vader is “always” driven by hate, making a parallel between Vader’s usual state and the state he’s in during this moment when Luke attacks. But it then goes further, because it says he is actively amplifying himself by drawing on more anger and hate. Yet falls anyway.

No Caption Provided

Notice how it saysalways fuelled by hatred, he now gathers additional strength from fear”. The state that Vader is “always” in is not enough to defend from this version of Luke. The conflict argument doesn’t apply to this specific moment, because Vader is emphasised as being better than usual in this moment due to amping himself.

Obi Wan fights a much weaker Vader and takes about twice as long if not more to beat him. A Vader that Sidious considers to be reckless:

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for ieatnettles
Ieatnettles

4819

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#30  Edited By Ieatnettles

Luke, stated as such and destroyed Vader

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

don’t think I am confusing skill and augmentation. Zonakin/Dooku was the absolute best example of augmentation vs skill.

No Caption Provided

This quote doesn’t say he was the finest swordsman of the order. It says that he was “the Temple’s finest swordsman at the time of Darth Vader’s raid on the Temple.

All it is saying is he the best one there during the raid. The Temple’s finest, not the Order’s finest.


Whether by his own abilities or thanks to his teacher, Drallig ended up becoming the best swordsman in the entire Order. After attaining the rank of Jedi Master, he led the guard at the Coruscant Jedi Temple, training new generations of Jedi in lightsaber combat. His character and teaching method earned him the unloving nickname of "the trolls."`

|| Encyclopedia de Agostini: Ahsoka Tano

This is completely contradicted by Kenobi beating the same Anakin.

Anakin’s strikes (while he was still Jedi Anakin) were aging Dooku decades. Blocking one took more effort than him throwing Kenobi across the room and pushing the balcony on him.

The issue is you’re under the assumption that Dooku is more skilled than Anakin. I would like to see why you think this to be the case. Anakin is very much > Dooku in skill and augmentation.

No, I’m not under that impression. Dooku’s skill and augmentation was enough to fight Anakin and Obi Wan.

That isn’t canon anymore. Zonakin isn’t canon anymore. Anakin no longer no-diffs Dooku in canon. Dark side Anakin merely beats him. Here is the explanation:

Nah, Zonakin near stomped Dooku. We don’t need Stover’s novel for this. Once he embraces the dark side, the fight is over in 12 seconds. This is the definition of a near stomp. The canon sources also all state that Anakin was much more powerful than Dooku.

I am not arguing that Anakin wasn’t stronger than Dooku. Zonakin is legends now. The canon novel equates them until Anakin goes dark.

Focused rage allowed him to move faster and faster until he cut off Dooku’s hands.

Without the explanation in the Stover novel, there isn’t as strong of evidence that augmentation is going to overcome skill. If you have an example as good as the now legends novel, then I am willing to look at it.

It’s the dark side which improves force augmentation. Outright stated in Dark Disciple that he is moving faster than she had ever seen him move. And that his blows were augmented to the extent that they seemed “effortless”. Recall that Ventress had way better feats, scaling and hype than Vos before DD. He is literally just a random Jedi master who quickly surpassed someone who had spent years fighting Obi Wan and Anakin (Dooku says he is better than her later on). All that training, skill etc she had only for Vos to be described as “effortless”.

Again, not my point. I’m not arguing against augmentation. I’m saying Yoda, Kenobi, and Kenobi again weren’t affected by a dark side augmentation from FUs that were easiky superior to Vos.

We have a statement from a very new canonical source that Luke is not as skillful as Obi Wan or Yoda In sabers. Vader was conflicted in ROTJ, so Luke doesn’t scale to him implicitly. Vader is canonical surprised by Luke’s final attack in ROTJ.

Yeah, you actually just proved my point to be honest. You’re saying he loses skill due to the rage amp, yet in spite of that skill loss, beats Vader far more quickly than he did when he was calm and more skill full. Therefore, being less skilled than Obi Wan is irrelevant. Why does it even matter? Rage Luke isn’t even characterised as skillfull. He’s outright stated as swinging like a mad man:

He caught a conflicted Vader by surprise.

But he can get away with this because he’s just so overwhelmingly powerful. He is more powerful and effective than his calm Jedi self.

He got away with it because he caught a conflicted Vader by surprise.

Vader being surprised probably gives him a bit more time, at least.

In Darth Vader #11, Palpatine and Vader have a battle over the summa verminoth. Regardless of whether or not it was TP or TK, the fact remains that Sidious won and was clearly superior. In the following issue, the crawl states that Sidious showed Vader a “mere glimpse” of his power when doing this. This “mere glimpse” is enough to make Vader kneel.

I don’t really care about the scaling of one statement from a comic book, which is why I avoided this thread.

Avatar image for death4bunnies
death4bunnies

23741

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#32 death4bunnies  Moderator  Online

Lmao

Avatar image for death4bunnies
death4bunnies

23741

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33 death4bunnies  Moderator  Online

Reading through this thread, it’s more clear than ever.. Luke solos.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#34 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

This quote doesn’t say he was the finest swordsman of the order. It says that he was “the Temple’s finest swordsman at the time of Darth Vader’s raid on the Temple.

All it is saying is he the best one there during the raid. The Temple’s finest, not the Order’s finest.

You completely ignored the first quote which said that Cin Drailing’s skill is unparalleled. The fact is that this is a valid accolade along with the best swordsman. It simply means his skill is elite, doesn’t account for force augmentation.

I am not arguing that Anakin wasn’t stronger than Dooku. Zonakin is legends now. The canon novel equates them until Anakin goes dark.

Then I’m not sure what your point even is. Anakin goes dark side and near stomps Dooku, due to superior augmentation.

Again, not my point. I’m not arguing against augmentation. I’m saying Yoda, Kenobi, and Kenobi again weren’t affected by a dark side augmentation from FUs that were easiky superior to Vos.

Again, I have no idea what this means or why it’s relevant to Sidious. Many quotes say that Kenobi was stunned by Anakin’s fury and struggled against it. Not sure why Kenobi having more skill than Luke is relevant for Sidious, or why it means Kenobi > rage! Luke when the latter is far more powerful.

He caught a conflicted Vader by surprise.

Nothing to suggest he’s conflicted in this very moment, or that this Vader is sub OWK Vader. I could easily argue that OWK Vader fought recklessly or was conflicted due to his feelings for Obi Wan.

Even if you think he’s conflicted or whatever, it is stated in Fanhome Darth Vader that Luke with the dark side displayed abilities that Sidious considers > Vader:

No Caption Provided

The emperor was delighted by Luke’s abilities, seeing that he would make a much more effective apprentice than Vader had”

The emperor sees Luke dominate Vader with the dark side, and this display of power is enough for him to think that he would be a “much more effective apprentice than Vader had”. Emphasis on “had”, meaning every prior version of Vader. The power that Luke displayed with the dark side > any previous Vader, per Sidious.

don’t really care about the scaling of one statement from a comic book, which is why I avoided this thread.

So you don’t care for canon evidence?

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#35  Edited By frozen  Moderator
@therevaniter said:

I don’t see why Luke doesn’t get curbstomped here

Because Vader currently scales close to Sidious in the latest Vader issue, and they’re not THAT far off ROTJ. So either ROTJ Luke doesn’t scale to Vader or he does and by extension is in Sheev realm.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#36 frozen  Moderator

Reading through this thread, it’s more clear than ever.. Luke solos.

Hmm.

@frozen said:
@maulsmacker said:

@frozen:

More or less, Rage! Luke > Sidious >~ Vader ~ Base Luke is the current scale.

@masterbuster666 said:

Papa Sheev ftw!

I sense some disagreement. More in depth Reasoning?

Easy to address.

Rage! ROTJ Luke beat ROTJ Vader and overpowered him pretty decisively, that's a better feat than anything ROTJ Sidious did duelling wise.

Interesting.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40824

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Going with Luke

Avatar image for supreme101
Supreme101

8834

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

Luke

Avatar image for redsithdisciple
RedSithDisciple

2027

Forum Posts

456

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30415

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Palpatine wins unless he regressed. Luke only beat Vader due to 1. Vader being conflicted and 2. Luke's speed was too much for Vader. It won't be too much for Palpatine, and Palpatine will outskill him.

Avatar image for ieatnettles
Ieatnettles

4819

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I can't believe I'm one of the ones saying this but some people are lowballing Luke and Vader way way too much. They'd beat any prequel character maximum mid diff.

Avatar image for ieatnettles
Ieatnettles

4819

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

This quote doesn’t say he was the finest swordsman of the order. It says that he was “the Temple’s finest swordsman at the time of Darth Vader’s raid on the Temple.

All it is saying is he the best one there during the raid. The Temple’s finest, not the Order’s finest.

You completely ignored the first quote which said that Cin Drailing’s skill is unparalleled. The fact is that this is a valid accolade along with the best swordsman. It simply means his skill is elite, doesn’t account for force augmentation.

I am not arguing that Anakin wasn’t stronger than Dooku. Zonakin is legends now. The canon novel equates them until Anakin goes dark.

Then I’m not sure what your point even is. Anakin goes dark side and near stomps Dooku, due to superior augmentation.

Again, not my point. I’m not arguing against augmentation. I’m saying Yoda, Kenobi, and Kenobi again weren’t affected by a dark side augmentation from FUs that were easiky superior to Vos.

Again, I have no idea what this means or why it’s relevant to Sidious. Many quotes say that Kenobi was stunned by Anakin’s fury and struggled against it. Not sure why Kenobi having more skill than Luke is relevant for Sidious, or why it means Kenobi > rage! Luke when the latter is far more powerful.

He caught a conflicted Vader by surprise.

Nothing to suggest he’s conflicted in this very moment, or that this Vader is sub OWK Vader. I could easily argue that OWK Vader fought recklessly or was conflicted due to his feelings for Obi Wan.

Even if you think he’s conflicted or whatever, it is stated in Fanhome Darth Vader that Luke with the dark side displayed abilities that Sidious considers > Vader:

No Caption Provided

The emperor was delighted by Luke’s abilities, seeing that he would make a much more effective apprentice than Vader had”

The emperor sees Luke dominate Vader with the dark side, and this display of power is enough for him to think that he would be a “much more effective apprentice than Vader had”. Emphasis on “had”, meaning every prior version of Vader. The power that Luke displayed with the dark side > any previous Vader, per Sidious.

don’t really care about the scaling of one statement from a comic book, which is why I avoided this thread.

So you don’t care for canon evidence?

Skill doesn't mean much in this fight. Another example of someone being equally skilled but far beneath is tpm maul and sod maul. They are stated = in skill but due there is another statement saying tcw s4 resurrection maul is = tpm maul overall, and tcw s4 maul is equal to tcw s4 savage, who in s5 whej both of the brothers grew, maul curbstomped. And sod maul is >chicken legs maul.

Avatar image for xd_ist
XD_ist

1823

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#43 XD_ist  Online

Luke kills him as he would have done if not for Vader.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30415

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@ieatnettles: Luke does not mid diff ROTS Yoda or Sidious. He doesn’t beat them at all, and that isn’t lowballing. The writers would never say Luke beats them at that time either.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30415

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@xd_ist: lol what? George Lucas himself confirmed Palpatine would have just casually stopped Luke with the force. Palpatine never left his life up to Vader.

Avatar image for ieatnettles
Ieatnettles

4819

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#46  Edited By Ieatnettles
@alextheboss said:

@ieatnettles: Luke does not mid diff ROTS Yoda or Sidious. He doesn’t beat them at all, and that isn’t lowballing. The writers would never say Luke beats them at that time either.

Frozen could address this much better than me, as he was the one that convinced me of this opinion

@Frozen

Avatar image for catman6
CatMan6

819

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I can't believe I'm one of the ones saying this but some people are lowballing Luke and Vader way way too much. They'd beat any prequel character maximum mid diff.

Idk about the mid diff part

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#48 frozen  Moderator

@xd_ist: lol what? George Lucas himself confirmed Palpatine would have just casually stopped Luke with the force. Palpatine never left his life up to Vader.

Lucas statements aren’t really valid, especially if they contradict the direction Disney are going in. Anyway interesting results here, 9 people said Sidious and 9 said Luke.

Avatar image for ieatnettles
Ieatnettles

4819

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@catman6 said:
@ieatnettles said:

I can't believe I'm one of the ones saying this but some people are lowballing Luke and Vader way way too much. They'd beat any prequel character maximum mid diff.

Idk about the mid diff part

They scale far above

Avatar image for tagsorwhatever
tagsorwhatever

796

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@xd_ist: lol what? George Lucas himself confirmed Palpatine would have just casually stopped Luke with the force. Palpatine never left his life up to Vader.

Not necessarily what was said, it was said he would raise his hand, but that could just be him using force lightning.