Quick Debate Street R1: King Hellstorm vs Chimeroid (Voting Open)

@king_hellstorm:

• Captain Boomerang Jr
• Mirai Kuriyama

@chimeroid:

• Black Manta
• Demonslayer (Danila)

Rules

• Death or KO.
• No BFR.
• Random Encounter.
• In Character.
• Standard Gear.

Battlefield

Both teams start 20 feet apart from the middle.

@sirfizzwhizz: We PM you the posts at the same time, right?

No, just PM me whenever and when your opponent done the same, I will post them at the same time.

@sirfizzwhizz:

Pm sent.

@king_hellstorm:

Danila the Demonslayer

"None of you will leave this place alive"

Demonslayer is a grim avenger who exterminates demons with the power of magical tattoos made from the blood of Satan himself. He was a soldier whose outpost was raided by demons as it was inconspicuous enough not to be noticed by too many people. Every one of his friends died as well as his family. He fought the demons bravely, and for that, they chose to reward him by crippling him instead of killing him. Unfortunately for them, he was given the power to destroy them by a council of mages.

Physicals

Prior to being imbued with the power given to him by the tattoos, he was an ordinary man. Now, he is far more.

Strength

Danila's body is pretty much that of a peak human. However, it is not only his body we need to consider. His truly powerful strength feats come from his use of the tattoos which turn him into a 30-tonner.

Gallery

Needless to say, he does seem to be the strongest character in this battle by far. Easily capable of hurting either of your characters if he gets his hands on them.

Speed

While he is no speedster, he does have the speed feats to contend with other comic book peak humans. For instance, he can bullet time :

Which is something he can utilize if the fight gets to mellee range. For an example, he was able to evenly fight, and even outmatch a demon who blocked a dozen bullets with ease:

Gallery

Now, i know this is not really up to the level of Boomerang Jr. But he can keep up to a certain degree.

Durability

Another area in which Danila excels. Especially when it comes to blunt force trauma. Here, you can see him surviving a beatdown from Azazel, a fallen angel.

And, while this barrage of blows did hurt him quite a bit. In fact, he was down for the 10-count. He was just fine a single page later.

He was also capable of crushing a crystal dagger in his hand without getting hurt. And that dagger can pierce concrete.

Weaponry

Danila is not someone who packs a lot of gadgetry.However, he is usually armed to the teeth.

His most common opener weapons are his double guns. He carries a sawed-off shotgun in his coat. And a mini dragon gun that he can use to harm those who are protected from technological and magical weapons.

However, his most potent weapons are still his tattoos. He can use them to cover his arms in energy and create powerful claws for himself.

He can also use them as tendrils and attack with them in other manners.

Black Manta

"It's this simple, is it? I can just watch you die... and then I rest"

Unlike Danila, most people should know who Black Manta is by now, so i will skip the intro.

Physicals

Strength

A lot of people believe Manta is yet another peak human character. Well, outside of his suit, that may be the case. However, while he is in the suit, he definitely proved himself to be far above the definition of a peak human.

Easily catches a punch from Jackson Hyde Aqualad (he has super strength, and he has shattered boulders.with the same attack)

He even throws Aquaman with one arm.

Speed/Skill

While in the water he is incredibly fast, outside of it, he generally just displays the typical peak human speed.

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Now, i am not saying he beats Deathstroke. In fact, i am pretty sure he loses without the use of his optics. The first fight he did lose. But, after all, Deathstroke regularly beats those he shouldn't stand a chance against. It is his shtick. The point of this part here is to prove that, atl east in combat speed, he can match Deathstroke, meaning that he is at least a peak human.

Gallery

He has ways to beat speed though. For an example, he tagged the Flash with his optics. However, His speed should always be at Peak Human levels outside of water as his suit does not increase his speed, and he is just a peak human. And i do not claim him to be as fast as the Flash. However, he clearly can employ tactical thinking on the sufficient level to tag someone like Captain Boomerang Jr.

Durability

When it comes to durability Manta is a monster. His suit can take an incredible amount of punishment before breaking and it will keep him alive in the toughest of situations. Of course, the suit is bullet proof.

He constantly survives blows from high tiers. He did against Mazahs,

He even survived a huge explosion with only half a helmet on.

Weaponry

Initial Considerations

@chimeroid:

Mirai Kuriyama

Bio:

Blood Manipulation:

Her main power is the power to manipulate her own blood, she mainly uses this as swords and shields as if she uses too much blood she grows weaker and eventually can pass out.

Her standard sword is strong enough to crack a wall

And that was when she was trying to stab a hand sized Yomu (spirit monster) and not actually trying to stab the wall.

As for her shield, it is really tough, it can block an attack from a chainsaw spear

It even has good energy durability as it can tank mini explosions launched at it, those explosions are normally very powerful but the ones used against her were admittedly pretty small in comparison.

And as I said, she can manipulate her blood in other ways, such as create many spikes around her

Or attack many blobs of goo by extending her sword and creating many appendages.

But the most important aspect of her blood is the fact that it is cursed which makes it corrosive when sprayed. With a few drops she can chop down trees.

And when let loose can disperse things completely, like when she melted through a bunch of magical tentacle like things.

Oh yeah, she can also collect the blood she spilled so she can reuse it later.

Speed

I would show all her stats but she isn't really special when it comes to anything else. Not to say that she is weak however. But with that asides, here are some of her speed feats.

For starters she is a bullet timer. Also melts a powerful bullet (which is really how her shield works btw).

Her combat speed is also really impressive, as this GIF shows.

She is also really agile

Disclaimer: If you intend to research this character please keep in mind that the story where she comes from is a bit complicated as there are two versions of her and there events in the story where some of the characters' powers levels change (think Sozin's Comet). Just keep this in mind. Though I will try to be concise when explaining her feats so researching won't be necessary.

Captain Boomerang Jr

Bio:

Owen Mercer is a hero and sometimes villain who operates as the second Captain Boomerang. His mother is the Flash legacy speedsterMeloni Thawne and his father is the criminal Flashenemy Digger Harkness. This gives him limited super-speed in addition to his variety of high-tech boomerangs, allowing him to throw them faster. He has been a member of the Outsiders, the Rogues, the Secret Society of Super-Villains and the Suicide Squad. Owen Mercer was created by Brad Meltzer and Rags Morales, first appearing in Identity Crisis #3. (2004)

DC Wiki

Boomerangs

While he doesn't posses as many types as his father, Owen still has a few options to take down a foe.

For starters his standard boomerangs are sharp enough to split a wooden crate in half with ease.

But he also has powerful explosive Boomerangs.

And acid Boomerangs

Accuracy and Speed

First up speed, and yes, like Mirai it is his most outstanding physical attribute.

Here he dodges multiple shots from Deadshot

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And can throw his boomerangs at mach speed

He is also accurate enough to make a whole clip of bullets from Deashot all miss their mark , he does this with a paper clip.

Gallery

That is accuracy that even Bullseye is jealous of.

He can also ricochet shots like crazy.

Accuracy and speed like that is what allows him to do crazy feats like beat a clone of Jay Garrick.

VS Your Team

Tbh, I only know a bit about Manta and research on your other character held no results so I will focus on him for now.

So given that we presumably only have basic teamwork and know nothing of the other characters and have no prep, it is likely that our characters will 1v1 against each other. Based on that here are how my characters can beat yours.

Mirai VS. Black manta

This battle is pretty simple, all Mirai would have to do is jump 20 feet towards Manta with her shield up. Her vertical jumps are very impressive, she can jump a distance greater than 20 feet in a single leap,

And as I have shown her shields can deflect against energy attacks as well so even if Manta attacked her with his beams she would be fine. Once Mirai closes the distance she can spay his armor with his blood, then overwhelm him with her combat speed to slice his now exposed body up.

Captain Boomerang Jr VS. Black Manta

This battle is a bit more complex, but one that Owen can win. From these scans, it seems like Manta's body can be pierced by a bullet as it draws blood.

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From that I will argue that Owen will be able to overwhelm and slice Manta from the start like he did against Jay. And if Manta somehow manages a counter attack, Owen can easily go run around Manta in bursts. His running speed allowed him to escape the Rouges while carrying his father, it can certainly allow him to dance around Manta and cut him up.

That's all for now. It's a pretty small post since this was meant to be a quick debate and my characters don't have too many feats.

Bump for voters.

@king_hellstorm: @chimeroid:

Time to win this fight

Since this is a quick-type tourney i will open with continuing from your battle considerations and expand on that later. Guess you are about to see why you should not bring kids to a death match.

Mirai VS. Black manta

This battle is pretty simple, all Mirai would have to do is jump 20 feet towards Manta with her shield up. Her vertical jumps are very impressive, she can jump a distance greater than 20 feet in a single leap,

Well, i have to say that leaping in a straight line is a very suicidal way to approach someone with powerful ranged weapons. However, you stipulated she will use her shields to protect herself. Let's see how effective that might be. See this picture:

The small image the arrows are pointing to is the explosion that Mirai blocked in your scan. Safe to say, she dies based only on what you have shown in the opener. Of course, i figured you might have held back stronger scans.

So i did some research and it turns out she was able to protect herself from an explosion almost as big as this one.

With 3 Major issues. The first one being that those shields take a lot out of her. When she does something that big in scale she gets exhausted. For an example, HERE (from 2:29 to 3:03) her sword was tested against another weapon and when she was saved she was entirely unable to walk or even stand for a while. Or HERE from 3:53 and a couple of seconds after, she is barely walking after using her powers. If the first shot doesn't get her, the second one will. And lastly, but most importantly - Those are NOT automatic. She needs to activate them herself and i doubt she can do that while attempting to blitz. She could muster a small shield, but i doubt she could use a big one. And i want the voters to remember, she uses her own blood to fight and that has been shown to literally drain her.

One small Mirai counter :

For starters she is a bullet timer. Also melts a powerful bullet (which is really how her shield works btw).

Take a look at that gif again, she clearly moves well before the bullet is shot. So, there is even a chance for her to actually get shot by Danila from the side.

Captain Boomerang Jr VS. Black Manta

The Suit's Durability

This battle is a bit more complex, but one that Owen can win. From these scans, it seems like Manta's body can be pierced by a bullet as it draws blood.

The bullet did not go through the armor and i will prove it. The suit was completely undamaged. Manta did bleed however, blood was not going through where he was shot. He was shot in the chest, the plexus. And the "blood" was on his shoulder. Seems like the suit simply expelled it through the gills. And yeah, you can bleed from getting shot, even if the bullet doesn't go through kevlar.

This entire ordeal comes from Aquaman #9 and 10. Anyway. He was not even slowed down after taking that bullet. As you can see in the scan, he immediately ran after POW. And, while running, there is no wound. Hell, he was fighting Aquaman not a minute after getting shot. Look at the scan of the shooting, he was literally shot square in the chest and he shrugged it off like a paper cut.

In fact here is the scan of Manta's shoulder minutes after the shot happened.

Can you maybe see the injury here? Not even a scratch in the armor. And HERE - and HERE three more angles showing that there is no damage done to the armor.

From that I will argue that Owen will be able to overwhelm and slice Manta from the start like he did against Jay.

A couple of things i want to set straight. First of all, if Owen can overwhelm Jay Garrick (as you claim) he is WELL above this tournament's limits and thus, you should be disqualified. And he did no such a thing. He beat a clone with not a lot of feats apart for blitzing peak humans.

And secondly, it is not like both of my team members are just gonna stand there and take it. Also, let us not forget exactly how durable Manta's suit is. He was hit with enough power to dent the hull of a submarine he was even smashed right through a building. And he was fine. It even takes slashing damage easily. And, to make sure that i am covering the bases, here is the suit taking multiple rounds.

Can Manta Tag Owen

His running speed allowed him to escape the Rouges while carrying his father, it can certainly allow him to dance around Manta and cut him up.

The issue with this strategy is that Manta has a very tactical mind. A mind that allowed him to tag the Flash

He also used his tactical prowess to tag some with precog in a scan you already know.

And, even if Mercer is super fast, the tactical mind is a proven counter to his abilities. Let's just see what Deadshot did.

Two bullets Owen managed to aim dodge and he had him dead on sights. Not to mention that Black Manta can cover quite an area with his blasts. VERY similar to what Manta did to Kahina. So, i do believe Owen just might get killed in this fight.

What about the Demonslayer?

I understand finding info on obscure characters is not easy however, you can't just leave him unmentioned. You made it seem like you can entirely ignore him here. You should have at least mentioned the idea of Mirai cutting him with a sword. Anything for me to debate against. Without it, i will just stipulate how Demonslayer might fight your team. So, i can see two options for you here, either you throw more boomerangs, this time aiming for Danila too, or you try to cut him up with Mirai.

Danila vs Owen

Defense

The questions that the first option prompts are, can Danila dodge the boomerangs or block them at least? The answer? Yes to both.

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Offense

But, if he is squaring off against Owen, does he stand a chance to tag him either with his energy, or guns? Well, more than likely he can. There are 2 main options i want to point out.

The first is using the tactical thinking to outplay Owen much like Deadshot did. He did it against Inok in Demonslayer VS Friar 3

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And, when Inok was turned in to a demon Danila was capable of tagging him in this impressive feat.

The second option is using attacks that can cover wide enough of an area to make it hard for Owen to dodge them.

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Seems like Danila has all the tools needed to take out Junior as well as defend against him.

Danila vs Mirai

These are two characters with very similar power sets. She uses her blood, while he utilizes his tattoos. So, to be honest i see this as a fairly even fight. He too can create a sword. However, he usually prefers his claws to do the work. So, can he take her out? Quite possibly so. Hell, he might just straight up shoot her. And having to deal with Manta is going to leave her open to shots from the side.

I played along and went with counters for your 1v1 ideas. However, this is a team fight and there are simply more things that my team can do. Hell, Mirai can't even block a single attack from Manta without draining herself. A couple of follow up bullets and she is dead.

The Conclusions

So, How would this fight go?

Either way, this debate was an interesting experience and i am glad we did it. You are definitely an opponent worth of every bit of praise you get and i wish you all the best when the votes come around. (with exactly 0 t4v LOL)

@king_hellstorm: @chimeroid:

VS Your Team (Pt. 2)

Mirai vs. Danila

For this battle, I looks like it comes down to speed vs strength since Mirai's combat seems to be much more impressive while Danila has greater strength. However, I don't really see it that way. Because from what I see Danila's glowing arms and claws looks strikingly similar to the tendrils Mirai evaporated, and so with a few drops of blood his weapons would disappear.

Meanwhile, if he attempts to use his guns, she can simply block the shots with her sword or shield. She has blocked powerful magic bullets before.

So yeah, at a range Danila can't hurt her due to the shield and up close, his CQC weapons will dissolve. Meanwhile, all Mirai has to do is spray him with a few drops of blood and his body melts.

That will cripple if not kill him instantly, either way it would make it easy for Owen or Mirai to finish him off. Also notice the range in which Mirai lands the blood, I'd say that is a good 15-20 feet.

Captain Boomerang Jr VS. Danila

Basically, Owen slices him up. You have only shown blunt force durability and Danila is a sleeveless man in a hoodie. He gets cut up in the first 2 seconds, there is also no way Danila can dodge the attacks, Boomerang was able to tag the Flash with his boomerang.

Granted, the Flash was caught off guard, it is still highly impressive nevertheless. The Flash later even comments how the boomerangs were going "too fast".

Combined that with the accuracy I already told you about and the fact that Boomerang can throw many at the same time

And I'm not seeing how this doesn't happen to Danila right off the bat (remember that is a Jay Garrick clone, many times faster than both of your team members combined).

Also, that clone isn't featless btw. It was speedily wrecking a team until Owen owned it.

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Counters: Mirai vs. Black Manta

Now that I know what Manta can do, I will counter his gear and speed.

Gear:

Energized Blades- When activated his swords can go through Aquaman himself . At one point, he famously cut of Arthur's arm.

If Manta gets close enough to use this, he gets blood sprayed.

Optic Blast -Powerful enough to one-shot armored Atlanteans

Explosive harpoons - Quite powerful too

Energy attacks and especially explosives won't go through Mirai's shield. You see this attack

The one breaking that giant stone wall? Well, while that was happening, Mirai was being hit with those attacks as well, but she survived and came out unscathed.

Now, an argument can be mind about how your explosions are slightly bigger and more powerful. However, Mirai was able to tank a whole number of explosions without being harmed, so I doubt one of explosive harpoons will be able to take Mirai down..

Harpoons - Can go through Deathstrokes armor and Aquaman. Deathsroke was KOed by this.

Yes, well she dissolves it.

That was the same bullet that collapsed the ceiling from earlier.

The suit is electrified - And has enough charge to KO King Shark, and stun Mera

And again, the second you get close you get melted. Goodbye visor, good bye suit. There is also no way you will get closer than a sword's distance away. Also, once Mirai stabs you, she can kill you instantly by filling you with her blood.

Speed:

I just want to touch on speed because it seems like Mirai still outclasses you in combat speed, as I initially thought. Yes, I know DS can be a fast fighter, but nothing in these scans indicated that DS was going that fast

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An no one in the Suicide Squad has combat speed close to Mirai's, which is again, high level blur-low FTE speed.

He has ways to beat speed though. For an example, he tagged the Flash with his optics. However, His speed should always be at Peak Human levels outside of water as his suit does not increase his speed, and he is just a peak human. And i do not claim him to be as fast as the Flash. However, he clearly can employ tactical thinking on the sufficient level to tag someone like Captain Boomerang Jr.

It looked like Flash ran into his line of sight, not Manta outright tagging him. Also, if Manta did outright tag him, then since the suit does not increase his speed, then the feat should be considered PIS. Although it's not like the optics would hurt Mirai as I have shown.

Counters: Captain Boomerang Jr. vs. Black Manta

Similarly to Owen vs Danila, I think Owen can win as soon as he makes the draw. I already showed his incredible speed and accuracy, being able to tag Flash and all that, but now I will prove that he can slice Manta.

First of all...

Of course, the suit is bullet proof.

That isn't his suit being bullet proof if he bleeds.

Now Manta is fine, but that is mostly his pain tolerance in action, imagine if that bullet was as big as multiple boomerangs, because that is what he will need to tank.

Secondly, I want to focus on how sharp Owen's boomerangs are. Now I know I showed them slicing through wood, but that just won't cut it. I will show you it slicing through steel next, here Owen shows that he can cut through the barrel of a gun easily.

And again

He can even slice through Abra Kadabra's wand. Which is made out of future tech or something, it's resistant to heatvision.

Counter Conclusion

Unfortunately, i don't yet know what your team can do. I know Junior has super speedy bursts and that the girl makes swords out of her blood. For now, what i can say is that it seems that my team simply has to tag them once each. Mercer is fast, but Manta has fought faster. And Demonslayer is no slouch either.

And from what I can see, you guys won't survive an Owen blitz or blood spray either, so we only need to tag you once as well, the problem is, we are much quicker on the draw.

They both have the durability to make this fight last. And the longer it does, the better for us.

Nope, your durability is blunt force. Which doesn't matter in this fight.

Your little girl will bleed herself to weakness or just die from a well placed bullet/harpoon.

You aren't getting through her shields.

My Conclsuion

Your team's strengths are it's blunt force durability and it's physical strength. Unfortunately my team's strengths are speed and bypassing said blunt force durability (whether by using blood, acid or piercing). I think Owen can beat Danila is a few seconds once he draws, and that Mirai can beat Manta 1v1 but since Danila will go down quickly, it will be a 2v1.

@king_hellstorm: @chimeroid: Your battle is now over lol. Call in voters mates.

@sirfizzwhizz: @chimeroid: So.....no voters. How will this work?

Call in some peeps who may read this. highlight and tag those in this tourney too. Im sure people like @owie would read this lol. Tag some folk.

Are all your CaVs like this?

@thewatcherking: No, sometimes I get decimated in votes.

I will try to get to this tomorrow!

Hmmmm, well, this was in all honesty a weird battle. Nonetheless, I loved it, so let's get it going!

For starters, the weirdest part focused all on Captain Boomerang Jr. If I'm going to be honest, @king_hellstorm: debated Captain Boomerang to be well above the limits of this tournament. He showed feats of Captain Boomerang tagging not only the flash, but a clone of Jay Garrick. This was interesting, but in the end @chimeroid: was able to have (luckily) the perfect team to counter it, as Black Manta has also tagged Flash in a very similar off-guard sort of manner.

In the end, reading this, I am going to have to give my vote to chimeroid. I feel as though King_Hellstorm debated like a champ, but chimeroid had a team that felt specifically countered for Hellstorm's. Also, Mirai failed to impress me toooo much. She was tanking lesser explosions than Manta can throw with serious problems, she was never really even shown to be a bullet timer, more of an aim dodger, and she was viewed by me as inexperienced.

So in the end, while Captain Boomerang blew my socks off, I think Black Manta was debated excellently as a match for him, and I also feel as though Mirai was dissected quite nicely.

Great job as usual, gents. I expect nothing less from you too, keep up the good work.

@cdiddyman911: You know him tagging Flash and Jay was still using mach 1 boomerangs. Idk why Chime is saying it is above limits since Owen mentions it twice.

@king_hellstorm: Yeah I know, and I don't think that he is on that level. That's just how I felt you put his speed out, which is fine. But yeah, Flash has been tagged too many times by the likes of Deathstroke for me to take it as seriously as it should be. Still an awesome feat though.

@cdiddyman911: Well tbf, Flash was nerfed when Flash tagged him. People use the scan out of context.

Thanks for the vote btw.

@king_hellstorm: No problem. Also, I just gotta say, the fact that you debated with Captain damn Boomerang is awesome to me, lol.

@cdiddyman911: Thank you very much for the vote. I was trying real hard to push those points across

It is about the wording you have used. If you said "His boomerangs are fast enough to tag a clone of Jay Garrick" that would be ok. But saying "Owen can overwhelm Jay Garrick" sounds like it is over the limits. I predicted that was what you were going to use in your post and countered it preemptively.

Captain Boomerang Jr. :)

@chimeroid: Idk, the first one sounds like wanking their speed. The second one is what actually happened in the comic. But that's just my opinion.

@king_hellstorm: He overwhelmed a speedster. Sure, as i said in my post, and underlined, i believe he is in the tourney limit. However, if you word it as "He can overwhelm Jay Garrick" it sounds like too much. Jay is known for Nanosecond speeds. You could have stuck with he can tag Speedsters that are capable of stomping the Outsiders.

Also, in the first post, you said "he can overwhelm Jay". You forgot to say "clone" which is a really important distinction. If he can beat Jay Garrick his place is in the High tier tourney.

@chimeroid: I guess. But I'm pretty sure you can tell from his other feats that he isn't too high (since you said so in your post). And debating wordings is just semantics since the scan is the same.

Okay. Though he tagged the Flash, so he could probably do the same to the actual Jay.

@king_hellstorm: Oh, but you can't disregard the semantics. There is a reason phrasing and formatting are important parts of a debate. Both on the Vine and in real life.

@sirfizzwhizz Can we maybe tag the other participants of the tourney for votes?

@chimeroid: That's weird, where I came from semantics were looked down on (and by that I mean the debating site I came from).

@king_hellstorm: Interesting, i had Rethoric as a class in Law school and they always explain that how you say something is sometimes a lot more important than what is said.

@chimeroid: As a debater wording is important of course. But in DDO they say somthing like, if you debate semantics you are just dodging around the actual point or distracting from it.

@king_hellstorm: The thing is, you debate semantics when you disagree on the words that are used. SO, if you claim Owen can overwhelm Jay Garrick, that means you believe that Owen>Jay Garrick. But, we should avoid discussing this more, the debate is over. Time to let the voters decide. I believe you have given them food for thought in these posts.

@chimeroid: I see.

I’ll vote when I get home in like 9 hours

@revan-: You lie.

@thewatcherking: Interested in voting?

@owie: @revan-: Friendly reminder.

@king_hellstorm: Not really tbh, but I will if no one else votes by friday.

@thewatcherking: Wut?

@king_hellstorm: ?

@thewatcherking: I didn't say anything, lol.

I meant to tag @chimeroid

@thewatcherking: Lulz, thanks in advance.

I'll get to it tomorrow (hopefully)

@king_hellstorm: these look like my Owen Mercer scans???

@boschepg: Probably cause all scans look the same. I took them from readcomics and Reddit.

@chimeroid: @king_hellstorm: Ill read it tomorrow. Im tired now

cutting scans from Vine appearances take a lot of work,

@boschepg: Ok.

You mean cropping them? It's actually pretty easy you just have to use the snipper tool.

no - I mean going through all those issues and actually finding feats with all their appearances in context. I actually had a thread where I would get people character battle scans upon request.

@boschepg: Oh, yeah. It is easier if you use the DC wiki to check appearances then read them online.

you know Comicvine does the same thing, right? tho I know the wiki brings up big events in issues on their references. some stuff they miss though. my Wonder Man CaV feats did show up on the wiki