Qui-Gon Jinn vs Taron Malicos

Qui-Gon Jinn

vs

Taron Malicos

Who wins? One of the greatest Jedi of the Order and first to face a Sith Lord after a thousand years or an Order 66 Jedi survivor who fell to the darkside?

probably qui-gon, he did really well against Darth maul all things considered (maul is way above tarons paygrade) and was really good with the force. Hes just above taron in most catagories

@co-boss: In all fairness, Maul nearly killed Qui-Gon in a minute on Tatooine despite being injured from a previous fight and only using one blade from his saberstaff. Malicos overpowered Cal Kestis and Nightsister Merrin individually, and gave them collectively a good fight before losing. Both of those characters have very impressive feats. I can't say entirely how long Malicos would last against TPM Maul, though.

@formally_darth: oh yeah this would be closeish fight but I just think Qui gon has the advantage. Probably 7/10 qui gon

Everyone talked about here would lose to Darth maul

@co-boss: True that.

Qui-Gon but it's hard to know by how much since video game mechanics and feats, especially in Fallen Order, don't always make good sense.

Qui-Gon was a match for Maul, a Sith Lord personally trained by Darth Sidious. Malicos on a major DS nexus was comparable to an out-of-practice Initiate whose connection to the Force was in recovery. Maul one-shots.

@lord_tenebrous: Qui-Gon wasn't a match for Maul. An injured Maul nearly killed Qui-Gon in a minute while using only one blade. By the end of their fight on Tatooine, Qui-Gon was sweating bullets and gasping for breath, collapsed on the floor with his energy spent. Maul remained unaffected. Even with the aid of Obi-Wan, they were not a match for Maul. As addressed in my other thread, Dathomir is not a DS Nexus.

Qui-Gon wins. Cal was matching Taron in saber combat and was only at a disadvantage when it came to the force. Qui-Gon is a better duelist than Cal and better with the force.

👆

Jinn giving Maul a decent fight impress me more then Malicos dominating Cal. Jinn wins

@formally_darth:

"Qui-Gon wasn't a match for Maul. An injured Maul nearly killed Qui-Gon in a minute while using only one blade."

Maul's leg injury was an almost imperceptible disadvantage:   

"It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best." 

-- Star Wars Episode I Journal: Darth Maul 

In fact, Maul used his anger at being wounded to become rage-amped:

"This realization sends more rage pumping into my body. I am angry at myself, but I use the anger to fuel the dark side."

-- Star Wars Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

"Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense. He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side, and directed his rage at the Jedi." 

-- The Wrath of Darth Maul  

And, what evidence is there to suggest that Maul is more skilled with his saberstaff than with one saber?  

Qui-Gon held out against an amped Maul on Tatooine for 34 seconds, demonstrating that they're comparable. And looking at the script, it's pretty clear that Lucas wanted it to be a good fight: 

"ANAKIN picks himself up. The two galactic warriors, Sith and Jedi, are bashing each other with incredible blows. They move in a continual cloud of dust, smashing everything around them. This is a fierce fight. ANAKIN gets up, bewildered by the confrontation... QUI-GON struggles to fend off the relentless onslaught as ANAKIN races to the ship... QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL continue their sword battle. Leaping over one another in an incredible display of acrobatics, the two warriors hear the ship fly over them a few feet of the ground." 

-- The Phantom Menace: Official Script 

In fact, Qui-Gon leaps to the ramp so quickly, Maul didn't even know it happened: 

"QUI-GON almost disappears for a moment. Before DARTH MAUL knows what's happening, QUI-GON is on the spacecraft's ramp." 

-- The Phantom Menace: Official Script 

Furthermore, Lucas originally intended that during the scene on Naboo wherein all three ccombatants are trapped in energy fields, Maul was supposed to be tending to his wounds: 

"The JEDI must wait until the next pulse to advance down the corridor. OBI-WAN is impatient and paces, waiting for the wall of rays to open. QUI-GON sits and meditates. The SITH LORD tries to patch up his wounds." 

-- The Phantom Menace: Official Script 

Confirming that Lucas intended Maul and Qui-Gon to be close enough that the latter could wound him numerous times. While Maul being wounded was obviously revised, there's no evidence in the movie to suggest that the intent was revised.    

In the movie, Qui-Gon even succeeded in landing a hit during their 1v1, and when Qui-Gon recieved a meditation amp, he was able to temporarily hold the edge over Maul who had a massive form advantage until exhaustion wore him down. And to top it off, they were on a DS nexus:

"Approaching, he rested his bony hands on Sidious' shoulders. 'On my first visit to your homeworld I recognized it as a nexus in the Force. And I remember thinking how appropriate it was that the dark side should be hiding on such a beautiful planet.' He paused, straightened..." 

-- Darth Plagueis  

Moreover, Darth Plagueis, who had met Qui-Gon as a Knight and had seen Maul fight, feared that the latter had been killed by Qui-Gon in their encounter on Tatooine:

"Events were converging rapidly. Unexpected obstacles notwithstanding, Maul's tracking skills had led him to the missing Queen. But he had failed in his mission. Despite a brief confrontation with Qui-Gon Jinn, the Jedi Master and his party had managed a second successful escape. The Zabrak hadn't been killed, as Plagueis had initially feared, but his crimson blade had identified him as a Sith, and now the Jedi, Amidala, and her retinue of guards and handmaidens were inbound to Coruscant in the Queen's reflective starship."

-- Darth Plagueis 

It's pretty clear that Qui-Gon and Maul are quite close to each other as fighters. 

"By the end of their fight on Tatooine, Qui-Gon was sweating bullets and gasping for breath, Maul remained unaffected."

That's stamina. Sidious tired himself out against Maul and Savage, doesn't even mean they were giving him any difficulty. 

"Even with the aid of Obi-Wan, they were not a match for Maul."  

This is true, but that just makes Obi-Wan vastly less skilled than Qui-Gon and Maul at that point.

"As addressed in my other thread, Dathomir is not a DS Nexus." 

Since you used Maul's injury which is legends, I'm assuming that we're doing both canon and legends here. Yes, Dathomir is very much a DS nexus: 

"The Nightsisters' rule was but a memory, but Dathomir remained steeped in dark-side powers." 

-- StarWars.com: History Gallery

"The planet had a strong connection to the Force... This presence was tapped into by Allya, a rogue Jedi who had been expelled by the Order and exiled to Dathomir." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched  

"This planet resonates with the dark side of the Force."

-- Empire at War: Forces of Corruption 

"DATHOMIR: Shadowy Force-sensitive world of the Nightsisters."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched 

Qui-Gon is nearly equal to Maul, who was trained for over 20 years by Darth Sidious. Malicos was losing to an out-of-practice early Padawan whose connection to the Force was still damaged and on a DS nexus. Qui-Gon stomps.

What feats does Jinn have in the movies? Maul didn't really rely on the force much he mainly just used it to boost his acrobatic. in the movie since we are using the movie it seems We see Maul use the force when he used it to grab a droids body part to push the controls button on the elevator.

Then we see him use it to force push Obi-wan who wasn't even knight level yet off to make it a one on one against Jinn. Malicos was indeed knight level before order 66 then went rogue and uses the dark side while Obi-wan who beat Maul wasn't he became a knight when he defeated Maul.

I am going to say Malicos.

Disney Qui-Gon with mid difficulty at most. Legends Qui-Gon blitzes.

@mygod000:

What feats does Jinn have in the movies? Maul didn't really rely on the force much he mainly just used it to boost his acrobatic. in the movie since we are using the movie it seems

It doesn't say movie only and Qui-gon gave Maul a good fight and was the first jedi to discover immortality, so I would say he should be pretty powerful in the force. At least strong enough not to get ragdolled.

Then we see him use it to force push Obi-wan who wasn't even knight level yet off to make it a one on one against Jinn.

He used force push on Obi-wan to knock him into the pit. You are thinking of when he kicked him.

Malicos was indeed knight level before order 66 then went rogue and uses the dark side while Obi-wan who beat Maul wasn't he became a knight when he defeated Maul.

We have no idea how good Malicos was before order 66, and rank doesn't dictate power. Obi-wan was supposedly 25 in ep 1, which is already older than ROTS Anakin, and Qui-gon even said he didn't have anything left to learn from him.

I am going to say Malicos.

By visuals maybe, but by canon power scaling, no.

@alextheboss: Age is also not relevant when determining who wins either. Feats and accolades are what matters, not age or rank.

@shroudofsorrow:

Age is also not relevant when determining who wins either.

I know, but people tend to look down on ep 1 Obi-wan due to him being a padawan, when in reality he is a fully mature adult, unlike some other padawans like 19 year old Anakin or teenage Ahsoka. Also I could argue age is a little relevant, as a man in his twenties is obviousness superior to a baby, however someone like Savage Opress was able to beat jedi masters, so age is arguably more relavent than rank. Another example is anakin at the end of ep 1 is a padawan, and was also a padawan in ep 2, but is leagues more powerful, and the reason is age.

Feats and accolades are what matters, not age or rank.

Of course, but Kenobi has the accolades of Qui-gon's praise, and the feat of putting up a fight against Maul.

Qui-Gon stomps this loser who lost to a padawan level opponent.

@godgate: Malicos would have won if the nightsister didn't interfere. Malicos was a jedi master, and he has probably gotten stronger since then. Unfortunately for him, Qui-gon was one of the best jedi masters in the entire order. During ep 1, he was probably the third strongest. 4th if we count Dooku.

@alextheboss: Malicos was stomped by a padawan in sabers though lmao.

Qui-Gon contending with Maul briefly is honestly better than contending with Cal and Merrin.

Qui-Gon takes a solid majority

@godgate: He was never stomped in anything.

@alextheboss: Really? Then why is Cal capable of beating him without taking damage once? Lol and don't tell me it was just a really good player since the game acknowledges power levels as they made it impossible to beat Vader in a fight.

@godgate: I can't believe you just used someone not taking damage in a video game as an argument for why he got stomped.

@alextheboss: I mostly agree. Obviously a 20 year old is superior to an infant as a rule, but conversely, Anakin beat Dooku, as an example where age doesn't matter. I could give countless other examples, including non-SW ones, but I think you and I actually agree with this principle overall. Age usually doesn't matter. As to the TPM Obi-Wan example, I agree with you there as well that TPM Obi-Wan is good. But again, that is based on his actual feats and accolades, not his age (which I regard as irrelevant one way or the other).

@shroudofsorrow:

I mostly agree. Obviously a 20 year old is superior to an infant as a rule, but conversely, Anakin beat Dooku, as an example where age doesn't matter.

Anakin and Dooku were both adults so the same logic doesn't really apply. And Dooku was an old man, so if anything his age would hinder him. My point was calling episode 1 Kenobi just padawan level is a disservice, considering he is an adult man who has already taken on a sith lord.

I could give countless other examples, including non-SW ones, but I think you and I actually agree with this principle overall.

Yeah, it seems that way.

Age usually doesn't matter.

Once we are talking about two adults, I agree. But most padawans, if not all padawans we know of, are teenagers, which is why I brought up Obi-wans age in regard to be a padawan.

As to the TPM Obi-Wan example, I agree with you there as well that TPM Obi-Wan is good. But again, that is based on his actual feats and accolades, not his age (which I regard as irrelevant one way or the other).

I agree, and I actually think the younger Anakin as a padawan in ep 2 was actually superior to him, but Anakin is a special case. Both ep1 Kenobi, and ep2 Anakin, are well beyond regular padawan level and are already a match for some masters.

Both age and rank are extremely relevant, that's just logic. Someone who has been honing their power and skill for decades is going to be far better than someone with but a few years.

OT: Qui-Gon casually stomps. Malicos might have been a Knight, but he's clearly fodder like the Inquisitors. While Qui-Gon could compete with Darth Maul, Malicos was losing to Cal Kestis of all people, who is as close to fodder as you can get. Excluding younglings. He was a beginning Padawan when his training ended, and his master was a Zett Jukasa-tier fighter. Then he underwent a power loss, making him weaker than his child version, and didn't use his lightsaber for half a decade. By the time he fights Malicos, he's considerably out of practice, and still weaker in the Force than his child version. To top it off, Malicos was amped by both the dark side nexus and the Nightsister nexus on Dathomir. Embarrassing.

@alextheboss: Dooku's age doesn't actually hinder him:

(Credit to @shootingnova for sources and information)

Dooku has inhuman strength:

The count twisted the arm with which Vos still clutched his humming lightsaber, squeezing down with inhuman strength on the webbing between thumb and forefinger.

Source: Dark Disciple

The Count's physically fitter than most humans half his age (ie. very early 40's):

Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force-unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago-he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold.

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Tyranus enjoys paranormal strength and speed which he claims to be something beyond the Jedi (which strongly implies that he's actually stronger now, as an elderly Sith Lord, than he was a Jedi in his younger years):

The Sith saw no need to take on only young disciples, though they often did. Sometimes the training went smoother with disciples who had lived long enough to grow disillusioned or angry or vengeful. The Jedi, by contrast, were shackled by compassion. Their penchant for showing mercy, for granting forgiveness, for heeding the dictates of conscience, prevented them from giving themselves over to the dark side. From becoming as a force of nature itself, paranormally strong and quick, capable of conjuring Sith lightning, of exteriorizing rage, all without the need for the magic hand passes the Jedi were so fond of employing.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

No it isn't, and no they aren't.

• Batman has beaten Ra’s al Ghul (someone who’s several hundred years old)
• Cassandra Cain has beaten her mother Lady Shiva
• Zuko beat Zhao twice
• Daredevil and Spider-Man have both beaten Kingpin and Punisher on different occasions, with the latter also beating Wolverine at one point despite Logan’s being over a hundred years old at least (even older according to some other writers).
• Palpatine beat Yoda (who’s about 10 times his age)
• Exar Kun killed Odan-Urr (another long-lived Jedi)
• Leia beat Beldorian
• Luke beat his father in Return of the Jedi (who was NOT holding back any more than Luke was in the same duel)
• Anakin beat Dooku and Cin Drallig
• Darth Vader killed the Dark Woman
• The Hero of Tython beat the several-millennia old Sith Emperor
• Jango Fett beat Montross (an older Mandalorian who had been active and a grown soldier when Jango was still just a kid!)
• Antonio Banderas Zorro beat his mentor (who also trained him)
• Extremis Iron Man pounded the stuffing out of the older and more "experienced" Captain America
• Daredevil beat Black Widow (easily at that). Bullseye and Lady Bullseye have beaten her also, and none of them are from WWII originally as she is.
• MCU Spider-Man beat MCU Winter Soldier and Falcon, both of whom are older and more experienced than him. While I'm at it, 616 Spider-Man beating 616 Vulture.

And, then there's instances where younger characters have engaged older ones on roughly equal footing, such as Finesse Vs. Taskmaster, Cassandra Cain Vs. Shiva, Silver Sable Vs. Black Widow, Punisher Vs. Black Widow, Spider-Man Vs. Captain America (while the former was holding back no less), and so on. So no, someone who has "been at it" for a long time is not always better then a younger person at all, much less far better. And before you try to counter with examples of older characters beating younger ones, obviously it is not the case that the youngest always beat the oldest, but that is the essence of my point; age doesn't matter. Feats and accolades do.

As for rank, I can just as easily dismiss that one with the following notion: if rank really is important, then "logically" General Veers can beat Ahsoka or AotC Anakin. After all, Jedi Padawans are commanders, so a general would outrank them. But that doesn't mean Veers would beat any Jedi Padawan. Similarly, do you think that a modern day four-star general (many of whom are old men), would beat any 20-something soldier in a fight? Of course not. Rank and age are not relevant. Feats and accolades are what matters.

@shroudofsorrow:

"No it isn't,"

Yes, it is. 

"and no they aren't." 

Yes, they are. To contend otherwise is beyond ludicrous.

"Batman has beaten Ra’s al Ghul (someone who’s several hundred years old)" 

Fiction, PIS, maybe he peaked, atrophied, stagnated, who knows.

"Cassandra Cain has beaten her mother Lady Shiva"

No clue about those people, but, exception to the rule.

"Zuko beat Zhao twice" 

No clue who these people are, really don't care.

"Daredevil and Spider-Man have both beaten Kingpin and Punisher on different occasions, with the latter also beating Wolverine at one point despite Logan’s being over a hundred years old at least (even older according to some other writers)." 

Different fighters, different styles, different focus.

"Palpatine beat Yoda (who’s about 10 times his age)" 

Fan fiction, Yoda disarmed him in combat, ragdolled him in the Force, and overpowered his lightning.

"Exar Kun killed Odan-Urr (another long-lived Jedi)" 

Kun was ragdolled in the Force. Odan then tried to sever his connection to the Force -- which is another matter altogether -- failed, was to weak afterwards, then Kun killed him.

"Leia beat Beldorian" 

Literally a barely Force sensitive slug versus a prodigy Jedi. Watermelons to peas. I don't think you read what I said, and if you did, you did not understand it.

"Luke beat his father in Return of the Jedi (who was NOT holding back any more than Luke was in the same duel)" 

Different background, saber combat was not as expounded upon. 

"Anakin beat Dooku" 

Not a legitimate win, before that he was being trounced despite having Obi-Wan for backup.

"and Cin Drallig" 

No evidence of this. The novel account contradicts the movie, so it's unusable. As per the Visual Guide, Vader only killed Drallig with the aid of hundreds of clones.

"Darth Vader killed the Dark Woman" 

Not through pure combat.

"The Hero of Tython beat the several-millennia old Sith Emperor" 

Good for him.

"Jango Fett beat Montross (an older Mandalorian who had been active and a grown soldier when Jango was still just a kid!)" 

Ambiguous fight, weaponry is another matter.

"Antonio Banderas Zorro beat his mentor (who also trained him)" 

No clue, don't care.

"Extremis Iron Man pounded the stuffing out of the older and more 'experienced' Captain America"

Different context, different fighters.

"Daredevil beat Black Widow (easily at that). Bullseye and Lady Bullseye have beaten her also, and none of them are from WWII originally as she is."

Good for them. Exceptions to the rule.

"MCU Spider-Man beat MCU Winter Soldier and Falcon, both of whom are older and more experienced than him."

Different context, different fighters. 

"While I'm at it, 616 Spider-Man beating 616 Vulture." 

Different context, different fighters. 

"And, then there's instances where younger characters have engaged older ones on roughly equal footing, such as Finesse Vs. Taskmaster, Cassandra Cain Vs. Shiva, Silver Sable Vs. Black Widow, Punisher Vs. Black Widow, Spider-Man Vs. Captain America (while the former was holding back no less), and so on. So no, someone who has "been at it" for a long time is not always better then a younger person at all, much less far better."

Bla bla bla. Ignoring the fact that most of your examples were completely irrelevent -- comparing with people with powers or advantages to others, or circumstantial fights -- ultimately, you could list a hundred examples and I could still dismiss them as exceptions to the rule. 

Force users train in the same combat arts, and have the same powers, more or less. The same source of power too.

There's a reason the phrase "practice makes perfect" exists. There's a reason why private security firms only hire people with extensive experience in relevant fields like law enforcement or the military. There's a reason why musicians devote decades to their chosen instruments. For any particular skill, you need to train in order to grow. The longer you train, the better you are. 

Some people receive better training. Have certain inherent advantages. Or are just far more talented. Other people stagnate, or even atrophy, for any number of reasons. But as a general rule, people with more training, who have honed their skills longer, will be better than those who have not practiced as long. And when you're comparing years to decades, the gap will be immense. That's just plain old common sense, and you're never going to get around that. 

"As for rank, I can just as easily dismiss that one with the following notion: if rank really is important, then 'logically' General Veers can beat Ahsoka or AotC Anakin. After all, Jedi Padawans are commanders, so a general would outrank them. But that doesn't mean Veers would beat any Jedi Padawan. Similarly, do you think that a modern day four-star general (many of whom are old men), would beat any 20-something soldier in a fight? Of course not. Rank and age are not relevant. Feats and accolades are what matters." 

C'mon. Really? Well duh, how high you rank as a military authority has no bearing on your actual combative ability. That's not why you get the rank, or what you do in that position. Or how you get the rank, typically. Nor is it expected. It's of no more relevance to what I said than being a chef. 

A more appropriate example of rank in this context would be a black belt versus a white belt in your generic martial art.  

Ranks of the kind being referenced, represent a higher level of mastery and knowledge. The Grand Inquisitor outranks the other Inquisitors. Vader outranks him. If Vader was weaker than them he would be lower in rank. 

Jedi Padawans have are better than Jedi Initiates. Jedi Knights are better than Padawans. Masters are better than Knights, and then there are a number of positions in between. Council members are better than Masters, though they are not given their rank for such a reason -- it just goes hand-in-hand with it, as a general rule.

There can’t be ten exceptions to the rule. It isn’t a “rule” at that point and you’d have to be extremely ignorant and stubborn to keep claiming anything that disagrees with your own opinion an “exception”.

I guess that means every Jedi Master and Council member is superior to Prime Anakin.

Imagine refusing to acknowledge literal logic because there are outliers. Sorry kids, that's not how the world works.

People who have trained longer than others, people who have spent longer amounts of time honing their skills, will generally be better than those who haven't been in it as long. This applies to almost any field, anywhere, be it music, martial arts, cooking, or being a friggin Wal-Mart employee for Pete's sake.

There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of fighters, so as I said, you could cite hundreds of examples and I could still dismiss them as exceptions to the rule.

What you're doing is as dishonest and objectively absurd as saying feats always mean absolutely nothing because people have defeated others with superior feats.

Really, I shouldn't have to explain something as basic as this but here I am.

@devoidruby:

No, because Anakin was on the Council, and he is far, far more talented than anyone else which means he grows at a much faster rate with much less training. As I said, it's a general rule. There are always outlying exceptions.

@lord_tenebrous: So in other words, there’s a rule until there are numerous exceptions to that rule, and Cal isn’t an exception to that rule because ?

@devoidruby:

It's a general rule. As in, it applies in general. There are always exceptions for any number of reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that the rule typically applies. If you jump off a cliff, you will die. If you are shot in the head, you will die. If you contract the measles, you'll be fine. People have survived all those things, and died from the measles. They were exceptions.

Cal is not an exception because it is literally impossible for him to be one. If he was a late-stage Padawan like TPM Kenobi, yeah maybe it would be possible if he was really, really talented. But he's not. He basically just graduated from youngling to Padawan, and his master was a Zett Jukasa tier fighter so his quality of training would be sub par as well. Then his training abruptly ended, and he only got worse from there. Cal is basically a youngling, except with physical and mental maturity.

You can be the most talented person ever but you need training to realize that potential. Cal simply hasn't had the time to do it, he is incapable of being an exception.

Plus, it would be consistent anyhow, because the people Cal struggles with -- Inquisitors -- have a consistent record of being considerably sub par.

Qui-Gon wins 7/10, Malicos is not to be underestimated but Jinn should still be a small step above him. Force wise Malicos murks Jinn though.

Qui-Gon