Qui-Gon during The Phantom Menace, Jango during Attack of The Clones. Neutral ground. Legends versions.
All-Out fight.
Who wins and why?
Qui-Gon Jinn vs Jango Fett
@citgo said:
@breakofdawn: was he rly pressing him tho?
No, he wasn't.
You have to be either the Emperor, Yoda or Dooku to press someone like Mace.
@lord_tenebrous said:
@citgo said:
@breakofdawn: was he rly pressing him tho?
No, he wasn't.
You have to be either the Emperor, Yoda or Dooku to press someone like Mace.
This is legit what I was thinking about when asking that rhetorical question... tho ion know what has more authority; the novel or that Q&A+AOTC movie?
Yeah people bring up the novel, but I'm not seeing how Jango was pressuring him when he literally beheads him not a moment later. He was keeping Jango on the defensive, meaning the BH wasn't really getting anywhere and the minute Mace closed in, he was done.
The novel explicitly states that Mace struggled to deflect some of the shots, even describing his defence as "desperately" turning the bolts aside at times:
The man was good, Mace had to admit. Very good, and more than once the Jedi had to parry desperately to turn a bolt aside. He kept up his offensive flurry, though, keeping Jango on the defensive with sudden stabs and slashing cuts.
People like to bring up the fact that Jango is some Jedi tier, but...he's not. There are outliers for feats for characters and Jango is no exception to this. The majority of his appearances, he's fighting more on his level IE: Blaster wielders, beasts, other Mandalorians.
He's only truly fought against two Jedi without any circumstances, those being that 1 Jedi in Open Seasons and Komari Vosa. Even then those are suspect, because with the Jedi, both had been through a long battle, so the Jedi more than likely isn't even fighting at his full strength
You can make the exact same case for Jango. The difference is that Jango doesn't have the Force and can't refresh himself like a Jedi or Sith can. No reason the Jedi wasn't at full strength, given this. He also took down 3 in CQC during the actual battle:
and Vosa...well we have no actual details of how that battle actually played out within the lore, all we have is the gameplay fight and we know how gameplay can differ vastly from lore....
Gameplay isn't to be taken seriously when it's clearly exaggerated, such as Galen casually crushing AT-STs. Jango's fight with Komari in the cutscene where he drove her back despite having been tortured is not:
People will bring up his fight against Obi-Wan, ignoring the circumstances and that Jango in reality didn't do so well.
In what way did he not do that well? Besides the fact that Kenobi's form is geared towards blaster deflection, Jango reacts to his mid-air kick, and knocks him down:
Obi-Wan then kicks him twice (the first knocking him down, and the second sending him stumbling back). He then tries to hit Jango, who blocks his hits then sends him flying with a headbutt:
Note that it then appears to be Obi-Wan who breaks off the H2H fight and goes for his weapon, not Jango:
The novel only corroborates this:
So Jango went toe to toe with an experienced Jedi Master - who's arguably better than Jinn, given that comparisons have been made between TPM Kenobi and Jinn and this is 10 years later - landed two hits to Obi-Wan's two/three (hard to make out if he landed a third), with one of his hits sending Obi-Wan flying backwards and seeking his weapon.
People will bring up him kill Coleman Trebor, when if taking into account Legends, his death makes ZERO sense, even just by the movie it makes ZERO sense.
Why? Jango's accuracy and skill has given Obi-Wan and Mace Windu, both among the most skilled Jedi of their period at this point, trouble. Why does him killing Coleman Trebor, who was more of a diplomat than a warrior, not make sense?
Jango has a track record of holding the advantage over three Jedi in CQC and then stomping another after a long battle, holding his own against Obi-Wan, and testing Mace's defences, with Mace himself commenting that Jango was exceptionally dangerous and could give him in less than a second if given the chance:
"Jango Fett bristles with weapons. An instinctive killer: the deadliest man in the galaxy. Jango can kill me in less than a second. I know it. Even if I had never seen Kenobi's report from Kamino, I can feel the violence Jango radiates: in the Force, a pulsar of death."
Obi Wan fight the headbutt was the best Jango got, other times Obi was quick to respond whenever Jango tried something. Yeah Jango can give a struggle to someone I’m not arguing that. The missile too was the best, later on he admitted to Boba that he ran out of options. So Obi-Wan wasn’t going for the kill, aiming to capture, Jango had no such handicaps so was clearly giving his all where Obi-Wan couldn’t.
Not killing isn't a handicap for Jedi. It's what they're trained to do and specialise at. The two were trading blows back and forth during the H2H exchange, with Obi-wan even commenting that he was impressed.
Yeah his one single fight in OP is the only one without circumstances, so it would be an outlier to his other feats.
I'm confused as to how the Mace fight contradicts anything I've said when at least two other sources - the script and the novel - confirm that Mace was pushed by Jango's skill. Even the extended scene has Jango competing for a few seconds before being overwhelmed, even blocking two of his hits:
No, Jango is not ~ Mace: not even close. He is, however, capable of pressing him in combat.
Also, you've yet to address the fight with the Jedi on Galidraan, where he takes down 4 simultaneously in CQC:
then stomps a fourth Jedi in seconds:
Gallery
Vosa was laughing and backflipping away indicationing she wasn’t even taking it seriously so I don’t see how that’s great for Jango.
She wanted them dead and/or enslaved. Her laughing when she's not only evil but also batshit crazy isn't a case for her not taking it seriously. Maul laughed when he was fighting Kenobi; does that mean he wasn't taking Kenobi seriously despite stating a few seconds later that Kenobi "will not stand in [his] way this time"?
She was forced to retreat, otherwise if she didn't consider them a threat she would have pressed her obvious advantage and neutralised the threat they posed.
Trebor being more a diplomat doesn’t mean he isn’t a warrior and given he his a master of Form 3 his death doesn’t add up. Jango can be accurate all he wants, but his shots aren’t magic when they leave the blaster he has no control and a Force User should be able to react.
So what you're saying is that a non Force user with a blaster can't beat a Jedi? Because there are numerous examples to the contrary, from the Grand Champion and HK-47 to Boba Fett and Clones. Jango is exceptionally skilled, trained as a warrior from birth, and knows how to take on Jedi (his kind's mortal enemies). Trebor has little to his name besides his form and being on the Council, which can be attributed to his characteristics due to his accolade above. I fail to see what doesn't make sense.
And also, the Jedi were certainly not warriors, per even Lucas:
A lot of people say, “What good is a lightsaber against a tank?” The Jedi weren’t meant to fight wars. That’s the big issue in the prequels. They got drafted into service, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted.
Trebor losing to a battle-hardened Mando who has repeatedly fought Jedi and won or at the very least survived when Trebor himself is more of a diplomat than a fighter makes total sense. Funnily enough, his form of choice is noted to be his downfall, since Soresu prevented him from launching an effective counter-attack and therefore leaving him helpless as Jango just spammed him with shots:
I’m not addressing the 4 Jango killed because that was with circumstances IE: A chaotic battle going on.
That's not an excuse. Not even remotely. The four he faced were completely focused on him and were fighting only him in those scans.
Or could be that Vosa was toying with them considering she was crazy and wanted to have fun with them. So she let them go, she’s crazy after all.
Which is false. She then lured him into an enclosed arena and lost in single combat. Tyranus confirms this:
"I'm impressed. No ordinary man can defeat one trained in the Jedi arts, especially one trained by me."
Yeah a guy using just a blaster shouldn’t be able to kill a Jedi.
Jedi are not gods. They're religious monks with lightsabers and space magic. They're hard to kill with a blaster, but they're not invincible. Even the likes of Vader have at times struggled with blaster wielding opponents, and Mace has as well.
HK even says this and we honestly don’t have feats of him killing any Jedi as far as I’m aware.
He's confirmed to have killed numerous Jedi.
The Clones has circumstances aiding them.
I'm talking about situations like this:
Gallery
As droids could not be sensed through the Force due to their inorganic nature, and could have their physical attributes extraordinarily augmented, they could be extremely effective Jedi hunters.
Boba Fett hasn’t killed any that we know except off screen apparently so we don’t know the situation or circumstances there was. We know he’s fought yeah, but that’s it.
Why does it matter what the circumstances were? We know he's beaten Jedi before. Different tiers of Jedi require different levels of ability to defeat. For example, Obi-Wan required multiple pieces of equipment, whereas Trebor (who's far less skilled) couldn't fend off a blaster.
Also come on you’re seriously saying Form 3 a defense form which Trebor has mastered is his downfall? Even worse it’s showing his death by blaster fire which Form 3 is great at. Whoever wrote that is mistaken.
I'm not saying it. Star Wars is saying it. And are you seriously trying to claim that Lucas, the guy who co-created the forms and the entire franchise, is mistaken? Form III, much like the Jedi, is not invulnerable. Stop using prodigies like Obi-Wan as a basis. Trebor was outdone and died to Jango because Jango, who Mace credited as the deadliest man in the galaxy and who could kill him (the second strongest Jedi in the Order and one of the strongest of all time) in less than a second if given the chance, is simply that good.
But maybe we should just agree to disagree on this as I don’t think we’re going to change each other’s minds on this. I can agree that Jango can put pressure on Jedi, but this wouldn’t really be anything unique to him. But I’m not about to put him as a great Jedi killer either when there’s either circumstances as to why, there isn’t enough evidence or it just doesn’t logically make sense if taking into account everything with the verse.
He's killed three Jedi in CQC simultaneously, stomped another, killed a very powerful Dark Jedi in Komari Vosa (who competed with a Maul one year pre-TPM and was personally trained by Dooku) - was pressed Mace Windu with some of his shots, and killed a Council member in Coleman Trebor. That's on top of being stated to be > infamous Jedi killers like Aurra Sing, who contended with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time.
Even taking into account the Jedi that Jango has killed aren’t going to be anywhere near Jinn. So he’s still going to win.
They don't need to be. He's shown adequate enough skill and ability against Jedi above Qui-Gon's level like AOTC Obi-Wan and AOTC Mace to suggest that he can challenge him in blasters and H2H alone. Throw in his jetpack, missiles, knives, poison darts and so on, plus Qui-Gon's limited stamina and defences (by virtue of his Ataru form), and all it takes is a single shot to gain the advantage against Jinn.
@breakofdawn said:
I'm not saying it. Star Wars is saying it. And are you seriously trying to claim that Lucas, the guy who co-created the forms and the entire franchise, is mistaken? Form III, much like the Jedi, is not invulnerable. Stop using prodigies like Obi-Wan as a basis. Trebor was outdone and died to Jango because Jango, who Mace credited as the deadliest man in the galaxy and who could kill him (the second strongest Jedi in the Order and one of the strongest of all time) in less than a second if given the chance, is simply that good.
Are you implying that Lucas is a flawless writer who has never presided over a poorly created scene? He literally had Sidious slaughter three Masters who were right next to Mace to demonstrate that only Mace -- who was just portrayed as utterly helpless -- can compete with Sidious, in addition to Yoda.
Whether or not Jango is deadly overall is irrelevent to the issue of Trebor, because Jango didn't do anything that requires skill. He sat there, pointed his pistol at Trebor and fired four times at his body. There is no difference between him or some random droid or pirate at that point. He did not shoot in brilliant patterns, he just held his arm out and pulled the trigger.
You say that Jedi aren't gods, but they aren't retards either. Coleman clearly thought himself capable of taking the likes of Dooku.
There's being mistaken, or overconfident, and then there's sheer insanity.
Now, Coleman's death can owe to any one of three explanations.
- Coleman can't handle a single shooter
- Jango is simply that good
- Coleman was caught off-guard
To the first -- up until this point, Coleman survived the arena full of Geonosian warriors -- wielding sonic blasters that are harder for Jedi to defend against -- and all manner of battle droids, not to mention Jedi deflecting blaster bolts everywhere. And again, he thought himself capable of taking Dooku. It is extremely, extremely, extremely unlikely that Coleman somehow managed to bumble through the arena without ever coming up against even a single enemy without having another Jedi for backup. Especially considering the fact that in the film, Coleman is portrayed as a very prominent Jedi -- a Master and member of the High Council.
To the second -- what do we know of Jango besides this scene? He couldn't take a holding back Obi-Wan with two blasters, and Mace fodderized him.
What do we know of Coleman besides this scene? He is a Jedi Master, a member of the High Council, and believed his own skills sufficient to face off against Dooku. This is in addition to the fact that Jango didn't do anything that would have involved drawing on his skills aside from elementary precision. It is extremely, extremely unlikely that Jango is "simply that good" to the point where he can just gun down Coleman within seconds, using a single pistol and 4 shots.
To the third -- this fits perfectly. We have seen other prominent Jedi Masters and members of the High Council fall quickly when taken off-guard(Ki-Adi Mundi), despite young Padawans being able to handle fire from groups of shooters(Zett Jukasa).
And, Lucas had zero hand in the creation of the forms as we know them, not even Gillard did. Those were entirely an EU creation, the product of secondary writers being fascinated by a concept and running away with it. Don't know where you're getting that from.
Obi-Wan fights aggressively for the majority of his film fights. He is only ever voluntarily defensive against Anakin in ROTS, where the choreogapher wrote Obi-Wan as simply trying to absorb Anakin's assault until he calmed down, because he didn't want to hurt his opponent. Neither Mace, nor Grievous, nor Maul are chaotic fighters in the film. The only EU styles that resemble the style of their movie posterboys would be Dooku and Yoda. Anakin is too ambiguous, Qui-Gon is similar to Obi-Wan.
Log in to comment