@meatpants
First of all, cool down. You'll notice I didn't tag you or address your post meaning I was addressing that to the CV community in general. Blowing your top to assert something is not a sign of an impressive debater or that you are winning, just the opposite. Believe me, I've been there.
I didn't get your tag notification. This happens a lot in CV
All these quotes say is that Kenobi grew to some degree after TPM, there is no indication or implication that he became more powerful than Qui-Gon. These quotes prove literally nothing that we didn't already know or can obviously infer. This is really grasping at straws from an objective viewpoint. Nobody is arguing that Kenobi didn't grow by AotC, which is pretty much all these quotes prove.
Indeed, but they also prove that he is better than Enraged TPM Kenobi and that is what I more wanted to assert.
IMO, enraged Kenobi being superior to Qui Gon is as clear cut as can be, but I'll humor your post.
If we want to be pedantic, he lasts an extra ten seconds. Not that impressive, especially since Jinn expended his reserve is a last ditch all-out attempt at killing Maul then and there, rather than stalling so that Kenobi could join him.
There is absolutely nothing proving Jinn voluntarily expended his reserve as a last ditch attempt to beat Maul. His increased performance can just as much be attributed to his increased energy from meditation than anything else. In fact, it is attributed to his increased reserve upon meditation.
On the other hand, you know that Kenobi was actively trying to kill Maul, not stall. So, if you can prove that Jinn voluntarily expended his reserve and fought with even greater intensity than he was fighting( you see, Maul became more surprised at Kenobi's aggressiveness not Qui Gon's in the story) you can nullify this point and move on your other arguments here. Else, this is basically a point in my favor here.
It absolutely is that impressive, when you consider most lightsaber duels get over in less than a minute. Stated in the Bane trilogy.
Talk about grasping at straws. Maul made that move because of the environment. He outsmarted Kenobi, just like he probably would have done in any other environment. Despite being surprised by having his saberstaff slashed in half, he quickly regains control of the fight; displaying exotic acrobatics, kicking Kenobi in the face and maneuvering Kenobi into a position where he was vulnerable to a Force push (just after Maul breaks the saberlock). The whole "oh, Kenobi would have lasted longer if the pit wasn't there" is definitely grasping at straws.
I am trying to give you credit here, but you are making this a bit difficult for me. You use the novel to hype Jinn up, but when it comes to Kenobi you suddenly switch to the movie? By the movie, Jinn did basically nothing other than lose to Maul. You don't see him in command of the fight, you don't see him hard pressing Maul, not to the same extent Kenobi did, that too for around 20 seconds in which he looked in control of the fight, and actually better than Maul, before Maul's lightsaber is slashed and he then counterattacks him.
In the novel, even when Obi Wan is beginning to get weak "late" into the fight, the battle is still described as being fought evenly.
Yeah he would have lasted longer lmfao.
It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.
Now sure, in the novel, enraged Kenobi is able to make Maul work desperately to keep him at bay, but never is Maul described as looking uncertain about the outcome of the fight. Star Wars Episode I Adventures tells us this:
Qui-Gon went after the Sith Lord with all he had - a fury of lightsaber slashes that sent the black-clad warrior reeling.
This corroborates with the novel, and we're told that the full time Jinn is on the offensive, Maul in unable to counterattack. In contrast, in the novels description of Kenobi and Maul fighting through service tunnels and the like, Kenobi loses his balance and slips on three separate occasions, and his tunic is slashed. Again though, this really doesn't corroborate with the movie, which is the highest form of canon. Additionally, in the Darth Maul Journal, Sidious seems to convey a much higher opinion of Jinn in comparison to Kenobi:
Qui-Gon Jinn took the lead. A powerful warrior, I suspect he surprised Maul with his stamina.
[...]
This was my victory as much as Lord Maul's, for it was thanks to my teaching, my training, that he was able to defeat the great Qui-Gon Jinn. The defeat of such an opponent should have cooled his mind, sharpened his focus.
-Star Wars Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
forcing him to unsuccessfully use telekinesis against him( out of character for Maul meaning he had to be really pressed), where he actually loosely stalemated Maul. - Um, how was the use of TK unsuccessful? He disarmed Kenobi and virtually won the actual contest of skill, a.k.a not a stalemate. And LOL at the idea that Maul was so hard pressed he was "forced" to resort to TK. Proof please? More like he just outwitted Kenobi.
Given AoTC Kenobi is more powerful than even enraged TPM Kenobi you can bet he is even more comparable to Maul. - Neither Jinn nor Kenobi are "comparable" to Maul. In fact, Gillard tells us specifically that only in Episode 3 (late Clone Wars) does Kenobi become an "8", i.e. a rough level of parity with Darth Maul. IIRC, Kenobi is said to be a 6 or 7 in TPM, and he's definitely a 7 in AotC, but the fact that he gets initially overwhelmed by the speed of a pre-prime Fisto makes it doubtful that AotC Kenobi could beat any of the B-team as we see them in RotS.
Maul briefly appears uncertain about his battle against Qui Gon. Maul is outright desperate when confronted with Kenobi, and there is a massive difference between the two lol. Making someone outright desperate is "far" more impressive than just inducing a sense of uncertainty in them.
Not at all. Maul began to become the aggressor to Qui Gon in the battle just as he became the aggressor to Obi Wan late into the battle
Then Darth Maul back-flipped across the melting pit, giving himself some space in which to recover, gaining just enough time to assume a new battle stance. Qui-Gon was on him in an instant, covering the distance separating them in a rush, hammering into the Sith Lord anew. But he was beginning to weary now from carrying the battle alone. His strokes were not so vigorous as before his face bathed with sweat and taut with fatigue.
Slowly, Darth Maul began to edge his way back into the fight, becoming the aggressor once more.
....
The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.
Credit: The Phantom Menace
Yeah, I am referring to the incident where they both use the force to throw objects at each other, a contest that both abandon and go back to pure dueling, so obviously Maul was unsuccessful in his attempts to use tk on Obi Wan other than at the end where he tk'ed Obi Wan when the latter became distracted.
And yeah, it absolutely is an indication that Obi Wan was pressing him more than Qui Gon. Maul hasn't used tk against Jinn in any of their duels, he hasn't used tk against Bondara or anyone. Furthermore, him using tk is an out of character move, something done only because Kenobi was pressing him harder than any of those guys something evident from the battle.
Outside sources also say that Obi Wan matched Maul blow for blow, that he was a formidable opponent for Maul, that Maul contended with equally formidable Jedi skills throughout, most noticeably in the exciting climax so outside sources are all objectively in favor of Kenobi here.
Meanwhile you have a quote that refers to an isolated instance in the fight, and Sidious's opinion, someone who wasn't even present in the fight? Like seriously? None of that counts as real evidence of any kind of comparison between Obi Wan and Qui Gon.
That and Sidious's opinion is based on hype. A celebrated Jedi Master has much more hype than an apprentice, no matter the skill level of the apprentice.
It's difficult to quantify and compare the both of them. Both engagements weren't neutral, unless you can somehow prove that Jinn's gave a considerably stronger edge?
That doesn't matter here bro. You are comparing an enraged Kenobi to Jinn, not a normal Kenobi and Obi Wan's edge is taken into account on this issue.
AoTC Kenobi>Enraged TPM Kenobi>Fresh Reserve Jinn>Normal duel Jinn
Get the point yet?
The thing is that this flows both ways, though. So your point basically becomes irrelevant.
Qui Gon can't anticipate AoTC Kenobi's style, but he can, so how that is irrelevant is a mystery to me. Likely you didn't understand the argument. AoTC Kenobi's style has changed, but Qui Gon's style is still the same so the natural advantage goes to Kenobi in the battle.
Jinn is regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order ever produced, he is confirmed in the RotS as having sparred with Dooku thousands of times. The same Dooku who is stated as being matched only by Yoda and Mace Windu in the order, and has quite a few quotes saying that he was one of the most sought after lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Temple. That sort of experience would give Jinn a considerable edge. On top of that, the Prima Guide for Jedi Power Battles states that Windu's lightsaber style is "slightly" deadlier than Qui-Gon's own. The Essential Guide to Characters states that Windu's style was perfectly balanced, and was developed by studying the lightsaber styles of countless Jedi lightsaber masters. I can acquire these quotes if you need them. We can even take the Prima Guide quote stating that Jinn is "the most skilled of the Jedi warriors" as an indication that Jinn's technical skill is among the best in the Order. Combine that with his thousands of sparring sessions with one of the most sought after instructors in the Jedi Order, his style being almost as deadly as Windu's Vaapad, and the fact that the TPM novel states that Jinn had an edge over Darth Maul in lightsaber experience and intuition in regards to lightsaber combat, and we have a clear cut advantage for Qui-Gon.
Like you said earlier
It's like me posting the dozen accolades Jinn has about being one of the best swordsmen in the Order, it doesn't really mean anything
But yeah, Obi Wan beat Plo Koon, who has been stated to be a challenge for any Jedi, so that alone is equal to any of the accolades you can dish out for Jinn. Mace's style is the most aggressive of all Jedi forms so naturally it is going to be deadlier than any other style.
I can dish out a truck load of accolades for Kenobi too. That doesn't mean much like you yourself stated here.
The rest is just repetitions of stuff I have countered earlier here.
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