Punisher/Lady Shiva vs Red Hood/Elektra

• 616 Marvel
• Pre/New 52 DC
• Standard Mindset
• Teamwork
• Incapacitation, K.O. or Death to win

R1 H2H only

R2 Punisher and Red Hood get a .45 pistol with two magazines and a combat knife, Lady Shiva and Elektra get 2 Sai

Start at the opposite end of the hall

Punisher/Shiva

Looking at the way Frank's being written recently, he probably could solo.

@king-ragnar: What feats specifically?

Probably Team 2.

Shiva is better than anyone here, but Frank's repeatedly proven he's no match for these guys, not even Red Hood. Elektra has outright blitzed him before.

Taking on Luke Cage, Hawkeye, Iron Fist and Winter Soldier all together. For further elaboration :

Gallery

It's hilarious given that any of them would beat him with ease in any other scenario.

Frank blitzed Bucky tho

Lol looks like Marvel has their own Tom King

Good fight.

Team 1 in round 1, with Lady Shiva being the MVP. Team 2 in round 2. I just think Elektra with her Sais is going to be too much, and Frank/Jason are relatively evenly matched.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

King has worked for Marvel. He had Vision solo the Avengers.

Nice.

Aaron laid out the blueprint for this mess. A lot of the Marvel writing has been fishy lately. Next we will see Thor being penetrated by Punisher's bullets

Elektra has already beaten Frank

Jason has already breath Shiva

Funny enough that Vision solo'd the Avengers in one of the cartoons

What have I just seen? How is Frank doing Danny like that?

OT: I guess current Punisher solos lmao

@jay_z94: welcome to the land of marvel inconsistency ;)

@supermanthor: Tell me about it lol

To make Frank look good, writers are notorious for making him look better than super-powered people, even if those characters would realistically beat him.

@jay_z94: your comment reminds me about a guy

He dress up like a bat lol

@supermanthor: Haha yup

I think that’s what people here are referring to with the Tom King comments as well, as he wrote Batman

Ignoring that ridiculous outlier of Frank taking on Luke Cage, Hawkeye, Iron Fist and Winter Soldier all together...

Team 2 wins both rounds.

R1 isn't close as Frank is a massive weak link.

R2 is a bit closer since Frank gets a gun but Elektra's signature weapons are sais, whereas Lady Shiva has little to no feats with sais. If they have their standard armour, then Red Hood could tank some bullets whereas Frank could not.

@jay_z94: indeed

Aside from Danny's performance, I don't see what's so outlierish for Frank in that showing. Everything else is in that sequence of events was pretty plausible for him.

@juiceboks: He tanked an electrical arrow from Clint that could put down an elephant lol

I'm still laughing IRL becaue of those scans.

@jay_z94: Well he also walked home with six bullets in his chest or escaped by swimming through ice cold water with multiple stab wounds in the gut, could draw faster than Deadpool whilst injured (and also had sex with a broken ribcage), so it isn't that farfetched that he is that tough

Damn, did Punisher have some sort of upgrade in those scans or he just randomly acquire the reflexes to dodge WS and Iron Fist?

@rac95: They are plausible though as humans have performed similar feats in desperate times due to pain tolerance and toughness.

But pain tolerance is not the same as outright durability, it was specifically stated that the arrow would put down an elephant.

@king-ragnar: source?

@jay_z94: Considering Frank's pain tolerance, that wouldn't be the craziest thing he's powered through.

@juiceboks: Pain tolerance =/= Durability.

@jay_z94: Pain tolerance and willpower can most certainly translate to durability in fiction. Characters like Frank have accomplished superhuman feats just off of sheer willpower alone. That was the whole reason for him tanking several electrical attacks and torture from Electro back in Edmonson's run a couple years back. There's also an argument to be made that his suit is insulated against energy attacks. This has been stated before, and even in the issue in question he was tanking multiple energy attacks from a guy wielding Mandarin's rings.

It might be a high end feat but it's not inconsistent.

@juiceboks: Again, humans have taken electricity in both real life and comics. It’s not about the electricity itself, it’s the fact that it was specifically stated that the attack would have put down an elephant. In my opinion, the whole fight scene is bordering on outlier territory for Frank.

So Frank tanked something that an elephant wouldn't have been able to..in other words a superhuman showing due to willpower (and arguably an insulated suit) but not necessarily better than what he's displayed in the past.

As for the rest of the scene, nothing else was too out of the norm for him. Even Danny's performance isn't that bad when you consider a few issues earlier in that same run Danny beat him handily in a 1v1 h2h encounter. It's not like Frank actually came close to beating them.

Callouts

Nothing in those scans is implausible if you just... read what's happening. They are trying to take him down non-lethally and via a combination of cheapshotting, using the other team against each other, the environment and sheer pain tolerance he gave them some trouble. It's pretty hard to subdue one person if you are not trying to kill them and you have 3 other people liable to get in your way, especially when the person you want to subdue is a dirty fighter who is tough as hell.

Team 1 due to Shiva, who can beat anyone here. Frank would likely lose to who ever he faces, but his durability should allow him to hang around while Shiva does the heavy lifting.

I feel like I could make a reasonable argument for Elektra beating Shiva. I still have never really gotten a great handle on Shiva's feats, I feel like it's more about rep than feats with her. But I could be 100% wrong on that. Also my general less-deep immersion in DC makes it hard for me to know how to scale things like her fight against Jason. But even if my general sense is correct, I don't think it would come out more than 5.5/10 at best for Elektra, so in this scenario it's not a big deal-breaker one way or another.

Frank vs Jason, I feel like Jason would win based on what I know of his H2H results, and his overall experience fighting Batman. While Frank's abilities in H2H are, in my estimation, in what I think of as the Moon Knight/Black Widow/Punisher tier, with Punisher defining the lower limit of that tier, and even that mostly due to his durability.

So overall I'd give the Elektra/Red Hood team a slight advantage.

@anthp2000: lol i love tom kings batman he is like the animated version thrown into the comics and batman already has a history of feats like this its just now there is consistency to it

oh and as for this fight it comes down to shiva and elektra and thiat could go either way.

Tom King's Batman has more low-end feats than he does high end. There is no consistency.

Team 1 wins.

Shiva is the best overall. I think her and Frank edge it.