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#1 Edited by Anjales_II (1026 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher (no Franken Castle) is equipped with his Shield, 2 hand guns 5 clips carbonadium bullets, knife, 1 machine gun 100 normal bullets, 5 frag grenades, 3 flash bangs, muramasa blade. 
Daken with muramasa claws and pheromones. 
On a rainy rooftop..to the death. Both are at their peak they start 5 feets in front of each other. 
They both know each other very well. 
who wins? how and why? explain

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#2 Posted by Mr.Hulk_Smashin'! (2663 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken wins, because of pheremones.

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#3 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken even without the pheromones. 

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#4 Posted by Dr Doomsday (205 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken all the way

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#5 Posted by k4tzm4n (41737 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
"Daken even without the pheromones.  "

I'm not so sure about that, based on the environment.  There's no cover and they have a clear view of each other.  To make matters worse, the OP gave Frank some massive equipment.   
 
Based on the OP, if Daken goes right for the kill, he can win.  If he takes his time, I think a heavily injured Frank would win via the M-Blade.
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#6 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
Frank undoubtedly has the equipment required to take Daken down, but it all comes down to Daken's demeanor. If he fights casually, it's possible that he'll lose due to a carbonadium bullet (even though we just saw him dodge a bullet point blank), and a few slashes from the muramasa blade that will negate his healing factor and will give Frank the opportunity to finish him off. If he's serious, he is much faster (faster than the superhuman eye can see), and suffiently skilled to dance around Frank and kill him before he gets the opportunity to do anything, and that's not even me taking the pheromones into account, to affect his emotions and perceptions. The muramasa claws are of no importance, as Frank has no enhanced healing factor.
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#7 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @erik said:
"Daken even without the pheromones.  "
I'm not so sure about that, based on the environment.  There's no cover and they have a clear view of each other.  To make matters worse, the OP gave Frank some massive equipment.    Based on the OP, if Daken goes right for the kill, he can win.  If he takes his time, I think a heavily injured Frank would win via the M-Blade. "
I disagree based heavily on the last time they fought on a rainy rooftop. 
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#8 Posted by whacknasty (5864 posts) - - Show Bio

I never saw the entire fight on the rooftop (except the last few gory scenes)....but how is the topic set up differently? Seems like Frank gets slaughtered all over again... : (

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#9 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@whacknasty:  

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#10 Posted by Anjales_II (1026 posts) - - Show Bio
@whacknasty:
Well Frank's equipment is more Daken prepared, and Frank was surprised by Daken' attack during the initial encounter. Also, Frank did have the upperhand at the beginnig of the fight even when he had a broken leg and was stabbed by Daken in the shoulder. Additonally, Frank did stab Daken in the kneck with a knife and was about to tear his head off until Daken slashed him in the eye then slit his thoat then cut himto pieces.
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#11 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
I changed my mind. Punisher wins via his anti-Daken PIS aura.
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#12 Edited by OldIdiotAccount (4910 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken.

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#13 Posted by whacknasty (5864 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik: @Anjales: Thanks guys.  Frank did pretty good for himself...I dare say better than Deadpool in the scans I saw with him and Daken... 
 
Maybe Frank could squeeze a win or two out...
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#14 Posted by k4tzm4n (41737 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @erik said:
"Daken even without the pheromones.  "
I'm not so sure about that, based on the environment.  There's no cover and they have a clear view of each other.  To make matters worse, the OP gave Frank some massive equipment.    Based on the OP, if Daken goes right for the kill, he can win.  If he takes his time, I think a heavily injured Frank would win via the M-Blade. "
I disagree based heavily on the last time they fought on a rainy rooftop.  "

If anything, that example hurts your opinion here.  Frank landed plenty of attacks, and here, he's equipped with far more than a combat knife.  (M-Blade = house of pain) 
 
It looks like Morph and I are in agreement.  Huzzahs are in order.  
 
.... 

Anyone?
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#15 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n:I thought it'd be nice to agree in a Daken thread for a change.
 
But I still said this

 
@Morpheus_ said:
" I changed my mind. Punisher wins via his anti-Daken PIS aura. "
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#16 Posted by angryvigilante (1866 posts) - - Show Bio

When Frank returns Daken better always be looking over his shoulder

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#17 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said: 
If anything, that example hurts your opinion here.  Frank landed plenty of attacks, and here, he's equipped with far more than a combat knife.  (M-Blade = house of pain)  It looks like Morph and I are in agreement.  Huzzahs are in order.   .... Anyone? "
I do not see how it hurts my argument here at all. Landing some attacks with familiar weapons is hardly what can be said about a fight with a weapon he has never shown to be skilled in (to my knowledge). You simply cannot handle a knife the same way you do a sword. If anything, I think the sword would hinder his chances. 
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#18 Posted by k4tzm4n (41737 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @k4tzm4n said: 
If anything, that example hurts your opinion here.  Frank landed plenty of attacks, and here, he's equipped with far more than a combat knife.  (M-Blade = house of pain)  It looks like Morph and I are in agreement.  Huzzahs are in order.   .... Anyone? "
I do not see how it hurts my argument here at all. Landing some attacks with familiar weapons is hardly what can be said about a fight with a weapon he has never shown to be skilled in (to my knowledge). You simply cannot handle a knife the same way you do a sword. If anything, I think the sword would hinder his chances.  "

I'm not at home, so I can't check through my older stuff to see if I can confirm him ever using a blade with skill.  However, I do recall Frank using a large blade in Suicide Kings (a machette or sword) to chop off Wade's arms.   TBH, I think it's fair to assume Frank has basic knowledge with a sword due to his extensive training and being a "weapons expert". 
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#19 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said: 
I'm not at home, so I can't check through my older stuff to see if I can confirm him ever using a blade with skill.  However, I do recall Frank using a large blade in Suicide Kings (a machette or sword) to chop off Wade's arms.   TBH, I think it's fair to assume Frank has basic knowledge with a sword due to his extensive training and being a "weapons expert".  "
Oh I have no doubt he has at least a rudimentary knowledge of any conventional weapon. But having basic knowledge on a weapon and how to use it will be worthless against one who is an expert in the use of such weaponry. It is very likely that Daken will just end up taking away the sword and using it himself.  
 
Furthermore, the carbonadium bullets will only be effective if placed in an instant death area such as in the head or base of the spine (which only will serve any purpose if it successfully severs the spinal cord).  
 
Daken has the ability to be where his opponents are not looking so I imagine that the gun will be largely useless until Daken is already on top of Punisher just like in the scans above. Punisher is also unaware of this ability so his advantage of reach with the sword is gone as well. Punisher will fire a gun at Daken, who will for all intents and purposes port behind Punisher and cut off the hand holding the sword (which is easily recognizable) and continue to mortally would Frank in a series of butchering blow after blow until Frank is all done. 
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#20 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik:Daken has taken a carbonadium bullet to the head before (Winter Soldier snipped him). According to Logan, it was the only spot they were sure his healing factor would not immediately kick in again.
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#21 Posted by JEdThing (173 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher wins. five mags worth of carbonadium bullets is a lot of pain.

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#22 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @erik:Daken has taken a carbonadium bullet to the head before (Winter Soldier snipped him). According to Logan, it was the only spot they were sure his healing factor would not immediately kick in again. "
I am almost positive I covered that much in my post. Were you just trying to reinforce my point? 
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#23 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@JEdThing said:
" Punisher wins. five mags worth of carbonadium bullets is a lot of pain. "
Castle will not even make it through one mag. 
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#24 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @erik:Daken has taken a carbonadium bullet to the head before (Winter Soldier snipped him). According to Logan, it was the only spot they were sure his healing factor would not immediately kick in again. "
I am almost positive I covered that much in my post. Were you just trying to reinforce my point?  "
Indeed.
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#25 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @erik said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @erik:Daken has taken a carbonadium bullet to the head before (Winter Soldier snipped him). According to Logan, it was the only spot they were sure his healing factor would not immediately kick in again. "
I am almost positive I covered that much in my post. Were you just trying to reinforce my point?  "
Indeed. "
Ah. Well thank you then for providing an in-issue reference. 
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#26 Posted by k4tzm4n (41737 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh I have no doubt he has at least a rudimentary knowledge of any conventional weapon. 

Good. *puts away gun* 
 
 

But having basic knowledge on a weapon and how to use it will be worthless against one who is an expert in the use of such weaponry. It is very likely that Daken will just end up taking away the sword and using it himself.   

Unlikely, especially since he: 
A) Doesn't require it. 
B) Has 6 bladed weapons of his own. Seven, if you want to get technical.  (I think Morph would agree Daken would much rather use his seventh sword in this match) 

 

Furthermore, the carbonadium bullets will only be effective if placed in an instant death area such as in the head or base of the spine (which only will serve any purpose if it successfully severs the spinal cord).   

Him tagging Daken is merely up for speculation.  Punisher easily has the accuracy to do so.  The question relies on how Daken will act in combat.  If he doesn't hold back, there's no doubt he could end this match in mere seconds.  If he acts in character, his arrogance as he toys with Frank could be his demise.
 
 

Daken has the ability to be where his opponents are not looking so I imagine that the gun will be largely useless until Daken is already on top of Punisher just like in the scans above.  

He didn't use that ability VS Frank. 
 
 

Punisher is also unaware of this ability so his advantage of reach with the sword is gone as well.  
 

Because he didn't use it, LOL.
 
 

Punisher will fire a gun at Daken, who will for all intents and purposes port behind Punisher  

Again, this depends on how he'll act.  He's just as likely to dodge as he rushes.
 
 

and cut off the hand holding the sword (which is easily recognizable)  

He's shooting AND holding a sword? Nonsense!  He'd likely have to equip the sword as he's getting his ass handed to him.  
 

and continue to mortally would Frank in a series of butchering blow after blow until Frank is all done.   
 

Again, depends on how he's fighting.  If he unleashes, he wins in a flawless victory.  If he's a cocky SOB, he dishes out a lot of damage, but Frank could take advantage of this.  Frank, however, would likely die of bloodloss shortly after in such a scenario, lol.
 
   
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#27 Posted by Decoy Elite (30159 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken wins as long as he doesn't fight like an idiot.

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#28 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik:You're welcome. I still need to find the exact issue, though.
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#29 Posted by Anjales_II (1026 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik:
I know this is just a cover but he seems to be wielding it confidently so i guess he's no amateur
I know this is just a cover but he seems to be wielding it confidently so i guess he's no amateur

Just like k4tzm4n said, since Frank's a weapon expert he must have had at least some trainnig with swords, sure not samurai level but still vey good. In Suicide kings he did chop off DP's arm and during the Franken Castle stories he is seen chopping down those anti-monster japanese samurai dudes easily with a sword. 
He just ripped a samurai with a sword in two
He just ripped a samurai with a sword in two
  
 
 
Ultimate Comics Avengers 2 #1 If he can do that with a gun just imagin what he can do with a sword
Ultimate Comics Avengers 2 #1 If he can do that with a gun just imagin what he can do with a sword
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#30 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Anjales:Thank you for providing references, but Ultimate Comics Avengers is non canon for the version of Frank used here.
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#31 Posted by Anjales_II (1026 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_: you're welcome :P
yeah i know its non canon but its such a cool pic and ultimate punisher is almost identical to 616 punisher, and i'm sure 616 punisher has done that
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#32 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said: 

Good. *puts away gun*   

Lol. 
 

Unlikely, especially since he:

A) Doesn't require it. 
B) Has 6 bladed weapons of his own. Seven, if you want to get technical.  (I think Morph would agree Daken would much rather use his seventh sword in this match)   " 

He does not need the sword but that does not mean he wants Frank to have it.

Him tagging Daken is merely up for speculation.  Punisher easily has the accuracy to do so.  The question relies on how Daken will act in combat.  If he doesn't hold back, there's no doubt he could end this match in mere seconds.  If he acts in character, his arrogance as he toys with Frank could be his demise. 

   
He seemed to handle Frank just fine while acting in character already. 

He didn't use that ability VS Frank. 

 
 Because he didn't use it, LOL.   
Because he did not need to. 

He's shooting AND holding a sword? Nonsense!  He'd likely have to equip the sword as he's getting his ass handed to him.   

Again, depends on how he's fighting.  If he unleashes, he wins in a flawless victory.  If he's a cocky SOB, he dishes out a lot of damage, but Frank could take advantage of this.  Frank, however, would likely die of bloodloss shortly after in such a scenario, lol.     "    
Lol.
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#33 Posted by k4tzm4n (41737 posts) - - Show Bio
@Anjales:
Ah, I forgot about him rocking a sword as Frankencastle, thanks!  And yeah, Morph is correctamundo.  We really shouldn't use Ultimate examples....Unless you want to make Ult Frank VS Daken ;)
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#34 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Anjales:  
The Frankencastle scans only show that he knows how to chop a man in half that is not even facing him.
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#35 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @Anjales: Ah, I forgot about him rocking a sword as Frankencastle, thanks!  And yeah, Morph is correctamundo.  We really shouldn't use Ultimate examples....Unless you want to make Ult Frank VS Daken ;) "
That would be an interesting possibility when, and if, we get to learn more about Ultimate Frank's suit.
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#36 Posted by k4tzm4n (41737 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik:
I'm too lazy to keep quoting.  So, numbers comin' at ya! 
 
1) Of course. If given the chance, I see no reason why Daken wouldn't disarm the weaponry from him.  We're in agreement there.  I just don't see Daken ever needing the sword or wanting to take it unless he REALLY wanted to humiliate him, lol.

2) I think Morpheus_ would agree that his display against Castle wasn't exactly in character and disregarded many of his abilities / attributes. 

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#37 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Frank wins here.

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#38 Posted by k4tzm4n (41737 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Anjales: Ah, I forgot about him rocking a sword as Frankencastle, thanks!  And yeah, Morph is correctamundo.  We really shouldn't use Ultimate examples....Unless you want to make Ult Frank VS Daken ;) "
That would be an interesting possibility when, and if, we get to learn more about Ultimate Frank's suit. "

Perhaps Ultimate Ronin would make for an interesting match.
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#39 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Anjales: Ah, I forgot about him rocking a sword as Frankencastle, thanks!  And yeah, Morph is correctamundo.  We really shouldn't use Ultimate examples....Unless you want to make Ult Frank VS Daken ;) "
That would be an interesting possibility when, and if, we get to learn more about Ultimate Frank's suit. "
Perhaps Ultimate Ronin would make for an interesting match. "
He could be a very good match if only he had more showings. It's a shame.
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#40 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n:  
  1. Well I imagine Daken is a little upset that daddy took away his muramasa toys so I think he would be happy to take this new one away from Frank. 
  2. I think that his abilities were disregarded because he did not need them to win. I have not seen him pour tricks out of his bag needlessly yet so to me, it still seems in character. But Morpheus does know the character more than I. 
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#41 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
A slight disadvantage is that Daken now has only 4 claws. He can fight perfectly well without the ones he lost, but it will take some time to get used to it.
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#42 Posted by k4tzm4n (41737 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik: 
1)  LOL. 
2) Morpheus_ knows the character more than Way, the man who created Daken. 
 
 
@Morpheus_
said:

He could be a very good match if only he had more showings. It's a shame. "


Exactly how I feel about Cardiac & Ord. 
 
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#43 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" A slight disadvantage is that Daken now has only 4 claws. He can fight perfectly well without the ones he lost, but it will take some time to get used to it. "
His claws do not grow back after being removed like Wolverine's? 
 
@k4tzm4n said:
" @erik: 
1)  LOL. 
2) Morpheus_ knows the character more than Way, the man who created Daken. "
I actually believe you are right about that lol.
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#44 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

" 2) Morpheus_ knows the character more than Way, the man who created Daken. 
    "


No Caption Provided
 

 Exactly how I feel about Cardiac & Ord. 


 
Indeed. But at least Cardiac has had more issues to illustrate his abilities. Ronin only had one fight (I view his pre-augmentation fights as Moon Knight separately).
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#45 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" A slight disadvantage is that Daken now has only 4 claws. He can fight perfectly well without the ones he lost, but it will take some time to get used to it. "
His claws do not grow back after being removed like Wolverine's? "
They should, but it is apparent that it is not what the writer desires.
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#46 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said: 
They should, but it is apparent that it is not what the writer desires. "
Really? That is bizarre. How many issues have gone by without the missing claws?
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#47 Posted by Morpheus_ (34334 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @Morpheus_ said: 
They should, but it is apparent that it is not what the writer desires. "
Really? That is bizarre. How many issues have gone by without the missing claws? "
Since Wolverine Origins # 48. He has appeared in two issues in his own series afterwards, without showing he can still use them.
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#48 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_:  
Wow. 
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#49 Posted by k4tzm4n (41737 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @k4tzm4n said:

" 2) Morpheus_ knows the character more than Way, the man who created Daken. 
    "


 
 
 

 Exactly how I feel about Cardiac & Ord. 


 
Indeed. But at least Cardiac has had more issues to illustrate his abilities. Ronin only had one fight (I view his pre-augmentation fights as Moon Knight separately). "

Why is that? He was the exact same individual, just with inferior physical stats and a different weapon set.  I'd say Ultimate MK had an impressive showing against Spider-Man and Frank.  I agree, though.  He really does need more before giving an accurate opinion.  Same with Ultimate Deadpool. 
 
 
@erik:
  
Enough to show Way has no real understanding of the character yet? 
 
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#50 Posted by deactivated-5c6600594117e (22316 posts) - - Show Bio

Dark Wolverine 88 just came out yesterday...what a timely thread.