Psylocke vs 90's Jean Grey

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onsipin

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#1  Edited By onsipin

Psylocke from recent years, just before she got her original body back vs 90s Jean Grey (until operation zero tolerance)

Morals on but they are both giving it their all

round 1 - telekinesis

round 2 - telepathy

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onsipin

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geekryan

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Psylocke both rounds, unless I'm forgetting some seriously great feats from 90's Jean Grey.

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marvelfan1992

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Round 1: Not sure. 90s Jean has that high end feat with Binary, while Psylocke had that instance where her TK was supposedly > Rachel's. Barring these outliers, I'd say they're even. They both sturggled to stop a mini plane, Jean seems to be struggling a lot more but her plane is also bigger

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Round 2: Might lean towards Jean because she was able to resist Onslaught's mental probes

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del_torro

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I'd say that Psylocke wins in telepathy. Not sure about telekinesis because Jean at this point has shown great defenses (tanking Island busters, containing mountain busting energy, restraining class 100 beings), and has blasted someone over 300 miles away from one country to another.

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geekryan

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@marvelfan1992 said:

Round 1: Not sure. 90s Jean has that high end feat with Binary, while Psylocke had that instance where her TK was supposedly > Rachel's. Barring these outliers, I'd say they're even. They both sturggled to stop a mini plane, Jean seems to be struggling a lot more but her plane is also bigger

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Round 2: Might lean towards Jean because she was able to resist Onslaught's mental probes

A few things to note about Psylocke's feat:

  • She was seriously injured and close to unconsciousness/death and was using her TP to numb her pain receptors
  • She had just fought off dozens of creatures and a building-sized rock monster with the other X-Women
  • And she had been trapped underground with the others for several issues

Psylocke also did this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Lately, she has been pretty on par with current Jean Grey too:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

Many of the feats involved Jean & Psylocke working together, or Jean asking Psylocke for help, involving powerful psychics like Legion and Life Seed X-Man

Psylocke also has a massive advantage in psychic weapons, and a possible OHKO with her psychic knife.

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marvelfan1992

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@geekryan: Yeah she's definitely on an entirely different level than Jean when it comes to TK weapons, but I don't see how that would be of much use. I LOVE her TK constructs they're probably the most fun to see in combat, but IMO they're not that optimal vs enemies with regular durability. Blasting people with TK is much more effective than having to charge in and fight hand to hand. TK constructs are probably better off in fights vs durable people or machines etc where simply blasting them might not be as effective. Jean is not gonna let Betsy get close to her

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marvelfan1992

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#9  Edited By marvelfan1992

OP says before she gets her original body so her showings in Uncanny don't count. And while I believe her TP is at her best atm, or up there as one of her best eras in TP, I'm pretty certain she's not in current Jean's league telepathically. Although I really love that they have the 2 of them sharing feats and working together, I was so worried about Betsy getting sidelined as a psychic in a team with Jean, I'm glad the writers didn't do that.

For the plane thing, I'd forgotten the context but it evens out since the plane she stopped is kinda tiny compared to Jean.

I don't find the feat in XX-Men to be a good one, and was a low-end feat for her and Rachel. Rachel has kept Providence afloat before, stopping a plane, especially with Betsy there, should have been child's play for them. They barely did anything to the plane, it was Storm who ended up carrying it with her wind

edit: I don't really have any issues with people favoring Betsy in TK though, her showing in Astonishing #1 was really good

It's harder for me to gauge Betsy's TK though because she rarely has any TP battles aside from those on the Astral plane that involve her basically just stabbing with her psi-knife. Like I don't recall any feats of her blocking/resisting telepathy. Would you know if these exist? Would love to see

@geekryan said:

@marvelfan1992 said:

Round 1: Not sure. 90s Jean has that high end feat with Binary, while Psylocke had that instance where her TK was supposedly > Rachel's. Barring these outliers, I'd say they're even. They both sturggled to stop a mini plane, Jean seems to be struggling a lot more but her plane is also bigger

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Round 2: Might lean towards Jean because she was able to resist Onslaught's mental probes

A few things to note about Psylocke's feat:

  • She was seriously injured and close to unconsciousness/death and was using her TP to numb her pain receptors
  • She had just fought off dozens of creatures and a building-sized rock monster with the other X-Women
  • And she had been trapped underground with the others for several issues

Psylocke also did this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Lately, she has been pretty on par with current Jean Grey too:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

Many of the feats involved Jean & Psylocke working together, or Jean asking Psylocke for help, involving powerful psychics like Legion and Life Seed X-Man

Psylocke also has a massive advantage in psychic weapons, and a possible OHKO with her psychic knife.

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Koays

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#10 Koays  Online

@onsipin: Hmm..ok what's the cut off on 90s Jean?

Like is she getting Revolution Feats?

Shes likely getting beat in TP regardless.

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del_torro

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@koays: Operation Zero Tolerance for me. After that she stooped holding back her powers.

Her best to feats before that are one shotting 90s Psylocke, trapping gamemaster in her psychic contructs, kicking sinister out of her mind. Psylocke can easily take her down, I don't see 90s Jean being a problem for Betsy with telepathy.

90s Jean though, was where she had some of her best TK feats. The binary fight, flying fast in space to catch up with pieces of Avalon moving at reentry speed, holding together Avalon (a billion ton feat), restraining Really powerful people and containing cyclops blasts.

With Psylockes tendency to use weapons in close combat, I think Jean has the edge because she prefers long range

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#12 Koays  Online

@del_torro: Agree on the TK.

Jeans shield feats are a higher scale then Psylocke has damage out put.

Jean's also more likely to try Telepathy in an encounter then to slug it out with TK. Odds are she tries to defend against Psylocke they draw eachother and then Jean goes for a psychic attack without being really up to hanging with Psylockes more well rounded levels.

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greenroost

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jean grey

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geekryan

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I would CaV this if someone is interested, with me repping Psylocke of course

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deactivated-5ed8b26019d3f

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I’m going with Jean grey both rounds. They’re basically even in tk since they’re both using Jeans old tk, but Jeans the more skillful one. I still don’t consider Psylocke that skilled in tp so I’d go with Jean for round 2 too.

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geekryan

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Jeez people are really lowballing Psylocke...

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del_torro

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#17  Edited By del_torro

@geekryan: I think you should post some of her high level Telepathy feats. Most people vote based on popularity instead of feats.

90s Jeans high end telepathy feats are few, so I don't think it would be too hard to convince people that Psylocke can beat her.

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deactivated-5cc073360931e

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Psylocke wins just because she could hold her own against Mr.Sinister in a Psy battle (Even Mentally restraining him Temporarily)

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geekryan

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@del_torro: Great idea.

On two separate occasions, Rick Remender (writer for X-Men) has called Psylocke an "Omega-level telepath":

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Next up:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2) KOs Death Seed Archangel

3) Who claimed his mind was "well-guarded from telepathic intrusions"

4) AoA Jean Grey, with the Phoenix, lost to Archangel

With some context that I don't want to really get into, Psylocke has also beaten both Cassandra Nova and Shadow King.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2) Affects Juggernaut through his helmet with her TP (2nd scan says he was weakened, but still impressive)

3) Uses her TP on Gambit while stating that even Prof X has had trouble doing so

4) Blocks the TK of Marvel Girl, aka Jean Grey

KOs Sabretooth with her TP, who often has pretty strong telepathic resistances
KOs Sabretooth with her TP, who often has pretty strong telepathic resistances
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9

1) Alters Mystique's personality, which is impressive given her being unreadable by Xavier

2-4) Destroys the Astral Plane

5) Xavier tasks Psylocke to kill him if he gets out of control

6) Resists Shadow King

7-8) Knows things with TP before Rachel does

9) Rachel asks Psylocke to use her TP to figure out what happened

In Conclusion

  • I have more feats I can post, but this is just a basic idea.
  • I agree that Rachel is above Psylocke, but not by much.
  • Recently, the gap between Psylocke and Jean has gotten smaller.
  • But Psylocke is most definitely superior to 90's Jean Grey.

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deactivated-5ed8b26019d3f

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@geekryan: Maybe in power but definitely not in skill. Besides the altering mystiques personality, there’s really no indication that her skills much better than it was in the 90s.

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geekryan

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@elpendejo: Her skill has developed A LOT since the 90s...

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deactivated-5ed8b26019d3f

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@geekryan: From what you’ve shown, I just don’t see it

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geekryan

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@elpendejo: I was showing very general feats, not specific to skill. Psylocke can do what most other telepaths can, i.e invisiblity, illusions, affecting the senses, tracking, etc

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deactivated-5ed8b26019d3f

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@geekryan: Still would only call her intermediate

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geekryan

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@elpendejo: I disagree. She would still beat 90’s Jean

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deactivated-5ed8b26019d3f

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@geekryan: I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree

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geekryan

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deactivated-5ed8b26019d3f

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@geekryan: I would but I wouldn’t be able to make it interesting. Plus there’s more knowledgeable Jean fans that’d do better than me.

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Jean.

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marvelfan1992

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#30  Edited By marvelfan1992

@geekryan said:

@del_torro: Great idea.

On two separate occasions, Rick Remender (writer for X-Men) has called Psylocke an "Omega-level telepath":

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Next up:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2) KOs Death Seed Archangel

3) Who claimed his mind was "well-guarded from telepathic intrusions"

4) AoA Jean Grey, with the Phoenix, lost to Archangel

With some context that I don't want to really get into, Psylocke has also beaten both Cassandra Nova and Shadow King.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2) Affects Juggernaut through his helmet with her TP (2nd scan says he was weakened, but still impressive)

3) Uses her TP on Gambit while stating that even Prof X has had trouble doing so

4) Blocks the TK of Marvel Girl, aka Jean Grey

KOs Sabretooth with her TP, who often has pretty strong telepathic resistances
KOs Sabretooth with her TP, who often has pretty strong telepathic resistances
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9

1) Alters Mystique's personality, which is impressive given her being unreadable by Xavier

2-4) Destroys the Astral Plane

5) Xavier tasks Psylocke to kill him if he gets out of control

6) Resists Shadow King

7-8) Knows things with TP before Rachel does

9) Rachel asks Psylocke to use her TP to figure out what happened

In Conclusion

  • I have more feats I can post, but this is just a basic idea.
  • I agree that Rachel is above Psylocke, but not by much.
  • Recently, the gap between Psylocke and Jean has gotten smaller.
  • But Psylocke is most definitely superior to 90's Jean Grey.

I'm aware of all these feats but I did forget that she resisted Farouk in Astonishing. Thanks for posting that, now I'm inclined to give Betsy the TP win since she's shown the ability to resist high-tier telepathic assault.

Although I would like to point out a few things that I believe you are taking out of context and overestimating the feats

1. The phoenix decided to leave AoA Jean and move to Angel because he was more in line with what the Phoenix wanted. Angel did not BEAT AoA Jean Phoenix Jean in an actual fight. But Betsy KOing him is amazing regardless

2. Jean had no telepathy in Inferno so Betsy was basically TPing a Jean without telepathy

3. She destroyed the astral plane because Farouk had set up an entire network that was interconnected. She can't repeat that feat anytime. It's a chain reaction that caused the Astral Plane to be destroyed.

4. Betsy was literally powerless against Nova the entire arc. She simply got a sneak attack with her psi-knife which just bonded Nova to the body she was inhabiting.

So Betsy wins TP, Jean wins TK, but in a closer match so overall Betsy would be better.

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geekryan

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@marvelfan1992:

I'm aware of all these feats but I did forget that she resisted Farouk in Astonishing. Thanks for posting that, now I'm inclined to give Betsy the TP win since she's shown the ability to resist high-tier telepathic assault.

She did it more than once too during Astonishing.

1. The phoenix decided to leave AoA Jean and move to Angel because he was more in line with what the Phoenix wanted. Angel did not BEAT AoA Jean Phoenix Jean in an actual fight. But Betsy KOing him is amazing regardless

Yes, but her attack still had no effect on Archangel and then his attack was working on her until the Phoenix decided to leave Jean. It also makes this MORE impressive since the Phoenix thought Archangel was a stronger host of psionic power than Jean.

2. Jean had no telepathy in Inferno so Betsy was basically TPing a Jean without telepathy

True, but it still shows she can disable Jean's TK.

3. She destroyed the astral plane because Farouk had set up an entire network that was interconnected. She can't repeat that feat anytime. It's a chain reaction that caused the Astral Plane to be destroyed.

Also true, but I didn't see Jean being able to replicate something like this in the same context.

4. Betsy was literally powerless against Nova the entire arc. She simply got a sneak attack with her psi-knife which just bonded Nova to the body she was inhabiting.

Nonetheless, she still beat Nova with a combination of trickery and telepathy.

So Betsy wins TP, Jean wins TK, but in a closer match so overall Betsy would be better.

No one here really presented any feats to demonstrate Jean's TP or TK from the 90s. Which is unfortunate.

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marvelfan1992

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@marvelfan1992:

1. No it moved to Warren specifically because Jean was not using it's power the way it wanted to, while Warren did, "Death and Rebirth", not because it thought he had greater psionic power. It did not want to hurt Warren because it wanted to be with Warren.

2. While there was no resistance, it is indeed a good showing of skill that even so early on she can block/turn off powers

3. We don't know that, because there wasn't an opportunity, but I'm not gonna argue against it, because Betsy's Psi-blade is of a unique nature which could have allowed her to do that, while Jean does not utilize her TP the same way, so she indeed may not have been able to do the same. My point is just that it isn't a case of 'Psylocke is powerful enough to destroy the astral plane anytime anywhere' or something along that line, there was a very specific circumstance that allowed her to do this, via chain reaction.

4. Betsy didn't really "beat" her though. After she got knifed her, Nova got bound to the body but was unharmed. She just seemed to be distressed because she was now human. She then threatened Betsy by holding the body hostage as Betsy's last chance to get her original body, so betsy just walked up to her and stabbed her. Betsy didn't win in actual TP combat

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

5. Maybe @pyrofn or @koays can grace us with 90s Jean feats

I just wanna say, while I love her TK constructs and TP knife, I MISS HER TP BLASTS. I remember I was a kid when I first saw Betst TP blasting Creed on 2 occasions, and also Rogue. I remember she even took down a team of X-Men during their training session on Muir Island haha. I miss classic Betsy

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marvelfan1992

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Psylocke wins just because she could hold her own against Mr.Sinister in a Psy battle (Even Mentally restraining him Temporarily)

oohh lovely, where can I see this?

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#34 Koays  Online

@marvelfan1992: I'm still looking for a clarification from @onsipin on the range of time were giving Jean since it effects what were giving her for feats but...

Supporting a collapsing Avalon, lifting planes and building spires as well as shielding from Apocalypes, Storms full power attacks and Abomination. Plus restraining Juggs.....it puts her TK as consistently a tier over Psylocke. Though she lacks offensive tk.

Tp Psylocke scales higher then jean but Jean's got the feats to draw it out though.

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marvelfan1992

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@koays: Ah right. Although as torro said, Operation ZT seems like a good cut-off point

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cKarma

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Psy both rounds

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onsipin

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@onsipin: good call, that was the last I've she wore her 90s costume. She switched to the Phoenix costume after that.

Round 1: while I think 90s Jean was a skilled Telepath (getting past mental blocks onslaught kept in juggernauts mind, blocking out onslaught, getting through shields Madelyne kept in cables mind), I believe that Psylocke is stronger enough to beat her.

Psylocke has two advantages, she is an expert in astral combat over 90s Jean (Psylocke has two recent feats of doing well against Shadow king in astral combat. In one of these he was amped), so if she can't get past Jeans mental shields, she can still take her down in astral combat (even though onslaught couldn't get through Jeans mental shields, he still stored her on the astral plane).

Then we have Psylockes psi sword and psi knife. These two have a scrambling effects on psionic energy and tend to short circuit it,even if the other telepath is stronger than Betsy, it's basically her Trump card.

In a normal fight, Jeans tk shields could keep her from getting stabbed, but without it here, Psylocke turns this into close quarters combat and stabs Jean in the head for the win.

Round 2: Telekinesis only.

I'd have to back Jean up here. She's shown better raw power and better defense feats. Psylocke has a bad habit of not using her tk shields, but Jean can be accused of the same, and since PIS is oof, I'm assuming they will both have shields up.

I think Jean can withstand whatever Psylocke throws at her, and has shown blasts strong enough to send someone flying over 300 miles in seconds. I'm backing her up here.

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Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

@marvelfan1992: The order is 5,1,2,4,3 (He also comments on how strong of telepathy she is it you want the scans hit me up)

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@psy-scarlet: Oh right of course, now I remember. Thanks! Wow I haven't read Inferno in like a decade, I should really go over it again, one of my favorite arcs. Classic Betsy was a much more "standard" telepath back in the day, in the sense that she would actually utilize her telepathy to the fullest (telepathic blasts, telepathic illusions and tricks, blocking powers, this thing with Sinister etc) She really got downscaled as a telepath once she got her Asian body, restricted mostly to stabbing people with her psychic knife and communicating telepathically. The change was definitely great for her character, but terrible for her as a telepath lol

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deactivated-5ed8b26019d3f

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@del_torro: I keep on forgetting about the psi knife.

Ok for me, round tp-Psylocke

Round tk-Jean

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marvelfan1992

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@del_torro: I keep on forgetting about the psi knife.

Ok for me, round tp-Psylocke

Round tk-Jean

Can Betsy take Jean without psi-knifing her?

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LordOfAllHumans

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@marvelfan1992: When the Kwannon thing happened her powers were split and weakened. She didn't regain her full power until after Kwannon died, but still stuck to psi knifing because she had become an action junky. IIRC 90s Jean can make psi knives as well and is still more prone to using distance telepathic attacks.

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marvelfan1992

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@lordofallhumans: yes exactly even after she got the half of her power back from Kwannon she still was made to just use her psychic knife. like I said, it's good for the story and the charatcer, it makes her unique and interesting, but she was downplayed as a telepath.

Where did Jean use a psychic knife? And is it the same type/does it have the same effect as Betsy's?

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LordOfAllHumans

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@marvelfan1992: @elpendejo: I may just be remembering an astral sparring session where Jean created two swords to spar with Betsy.

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Stalemate both rounds.

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marvelfan1992

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@marvelfan1992: @elpendejo: I may just be remembering an astral sparring session where Jean created two swords to spar with Betsy.

ah then that's the Astral Plane sparring session indeed. Although I don't recall Betsy having short hair other than in this issue lol

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marvelfan1992

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bump

Betsy may win TK, or at least it would be really close

Keeping a space shuttle together for 30 mins during re-entry
Keeping a space shuttle together for 30 mins during re-entry
Lifting the rubble of a collapsed building off of her and her team.
Lifting the rubble of a collapsed building off of her and her team.
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Her shields are able to tank planetary wave of G-Force although she was knocked unconscious

Her shields are also apparently capable of tanking a blast form the likes of Merlyn and The Maker both Universal level.

Although the G-Force thing and the merlyn and The Maker feats have to be clarified by @psy-scarlet because I don't know the context of these

Thoughts? @koays@pyrofn@lordofallhumans@del_torro@elpendejo@geekryan

90's Jean feats that are comparable would probably be the Binary shielding feat, keeping the hunk of space station together during reentry during the fall of avalon, flying their ship to avalon for miles in space, holding together Avalon during Magneto's attack. Blocking The Strangers blast was not 90s Jean though

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