Protege vs Lucifer morning star

Lucifer

@taylan93: This is one fight protege can't win. Protege needs to see powers to copy it, and Lucifers base speed is simply too fast. Also, Lucifers main powers are reality manipulation and Lightbringer flames, and if he used the fire first and protege copies it, he would immediately realize what protege can do, then warp him out of existence, or destroy his consiousness or soul, or just take away all his will.

Lucifer . Its been stated in wiki that only presence have the power to kill him .

Protege wins.

Lol, fanboy bias.

If Protege can copy Lucifer's powers, then Protege. If not, then Lucifer.

Protege wins.

Protege = Yaşam Mahkemesi, Eternity, Beyonder, Hawkgod güçler.

Protege wins.

Lucifer

Protege wins.

Lucifer is slightly below LT, so protege should win here.

Protege managed to mimic the Living Tribunal’s power. Protege exceeded LT in power.

Living Tribunal even with the help of Hawkgod (Multiverse Level), Post-Retcon Beyonder (Multiverse Level) and Multi-Eternity(Multiverse Level) could not beat the Protege.

Protege copies his powers and stomp him

Lucy takes it quite easily.

Highballed Outerversal/Hyperversal/Multiversal Interpreted tier Lucifer (+half of Omnipotent backing from Presence) definitely stomps Protege. If the fight was bloodlusted, Lucifer could will/change/warp Protege into non-existence instantly, like he did with the Silk Man instantly. And it appears that Protege takes time to copy powers as I hear.

But Lowballed Universe Interpreted tier Lucifer, where Presence is also lowballed by using that Samurai Jack avatar desecrating user's opinion, will not take the win at all and stands no chance.

It really mostly depends on how you rank Lucifer at this point. And how much wank and lowballing suits your stomach.

Protege doesn't copy the entire power at first glance,

the reason he copied LT's full power I later understood,

is because he copied the LT's judgmental proceeders, 

thus copying the LT's status which translates to power:

Which is why after these proceedings he had transformed into the LT

Having said this, Lucifer my catch onto Proteges ability to only copy if demonstrated .

This scan ambiguously implies that DC's Hell is a Multiverse. I'm not sure if this "Hell" is the same as Lucifer's hell however, you know, before his wings were cut off by Dream. Just pondering for thought.

JLA issue 35

@gamorasbigdaddy: Wrong if Protege copies a power it gets twice as strong for him. So if protege copis lucifers powers, then protege would be twive as strong as lucifer. He even did this with the living tribunal and the beyonder, nearly becoming omnipotent. So Protege would probably winn.

Lucifer. Doubt Protege could copy powers of Lucifer.

@soratoumiga: Well, he copied the powers of the Living Tribunal. Lucifer's not much of a step up from that, if it's a step up at all.

@breakofdawn: Yeah, I know, but Lucifer doesn't use brute force, like Living Tribunal does. He's more of a mind manipulator, he can talk Protege into commiting suicide or something like that, especially when Protege is actually just a mentally unstable child.

Good point. I really like your posts. You think logically.

@raimundopedrosa: Thanks.

No, Lucifer wins for the reasons as stated. His nigh-omniscience wins. Plus, if he's bloodlusted, then he'll do things that he never would, like lying and stuff.

No problem, dud(ette).

Are you the same soratoumiga from Superhero Database?

Lucifer via speed-blitz before Protege can copy his powers.

@raimundopedrosa:

Are you the same soratoumiga from Superhero Database?

Yeah, I have an account there, too.

Lucy

@soratoumiga: So you're backing Lucifer for this fight, right?

@raimundopedrosa: Yeah.

luci

Quoted for Truth. I mean, the mythos changed in cosmology since that was Perpetua now who shaped it all. But, Lucifers powers remain the same in my opinion for the most part so long as he isn't fighting a Monitor.

Lucifer demolishes him.

Lucifer easily he destroyed the mansions of silence with his presence which contained countless failed creations and universes which in those contained countless failed universes and creations and so on and so forth just to give an idea

Lucifer

She shaped the current known DC multiverse but Lucifer and Michael are still considered the original harbingers of DC creation. Even in Lucifer's current series under the Vertigo DC print, he is still considered second to only the presence and his role in creation hasn't changed. And that series is canon to mainstream DC and the same events are referenced.

Lucifer wins Protege is not even omniscient i bet Lucy be able to trick protege to giving up his power

@rijehu: I agree. But, to clarify:

Perpetua is the Source though. In this scan, she is talking about Earth and the Heroes on it, and the Judges of the Source are going to judge her negatively (those judges are Nil monitors), she needs to prevent that. She is the Source. The Cosmology just adds another teir on top. These Monitors made other Multiverses. They go on to discuss in Dark Knight Metal that Dream of the Endless and the other Endless have no dominion at all in the Dark Multiverse because it is beyond the creation of the standard DC Creation we are all familiar with and that only Monitors can go there. The powers that be in Heaven in the positive standard Multiverse where the heroes were from have no power to stop Mandrakk there in the Dark Multiverse because it isn't their Creation.

The newest Justice League series shows that Perpetua made all the Multiverses as a base and that Godlings like the Presence sprouted into them in unknown manners and made characters like Michael and Lucifer to spread life to it.

Here, Mr. Mxyzptlk insists that only four beings exist that are powerful enough to get to the 6th dimension and work there. It is a place beyond anything Impossibility and Imagination. Now, it is just a title, it isn't a 6-D Dimension accordingly to physics. All forms of Mxyzptlk are exactly the same throughout all DC media. There are just one of him. He fought the Spectre, he knows about the Angels and Heaven. Here, he states clearly he knows of only four beings that have the power to do something. Angels aren't on the list.

@michaeljulius:

Interesting....Nice analysis!!

Lucifer

Just remember the monitors only work for Morrisons work gaimans contradicts all of Morrisons plus more seem to support gaimans also Morrisons gods get beat by heralds and can't do galaxy level attacks or survive them while gaimans go far beyond that. Like I've said before its all dependent on which you prefere. You can claim perpetua as the source which funny enough was just an aspect of the presence but the monitors hold nothing an no value in gaimans. Work that is clearly evident the best you could do is agrue her to be near the morningstar but even then it just falls sort

So who do you back?

@raimundopedrosa: me personally I gotta back gaiman, manly cause I first introduced to his characters starting with dream then lucifer and so on an so forth plus to me his work seemed really to flow nicely together and i can't condone people putting the monitors to where theyre supposed to be. I mean really getting killed by lanterns these are your gods of your verse not some punching bag for the lower class, also overmoniter isn't omnipotent vertigos presence is. Also you putting these guys so far above there creation yet one can't even produce a galaxy level attack and another can't survive that. Biggest problem is they really just seem to be knockoffs I dont think vertigo was ever going to be full intergrated with the main dc titles so I think Morrison decided to create loosely based on characters. I don't know thats just me. So who you backing can back the monitors if you want choosing either isn't really wrong

@raimundopedrosa: also another problem with what Morrison is doing is people on these threads are trying to scale half of dcs lower tiered characters to be massively above multiversal

Good points. To be fair, though, Overmonitor is still insanely powerful. If it's not outright omnipotent, then it's sure as hell damn close to it. And by that, I mean closer than Preretcon Beyonder. Granted that Preretcon Beyonder is insanely powerful and almost just as good as omnipotent without actually being omnipotent, but Overmonitor is just a blink away from omnipotence. What discredits Preretcon Beyonder from being outright omnipotent (like say The One Above All, Elaine Belloc, and The Presence for example) is the fact that:

1. Preretcon Beyonder lost a great amount of power after killing and reviving Death across the multiverse. Power that he couldn't restore. The One Above All, The Presence, Elaine, and even Overmonitor (though not outright omnipotent) could easily kill and revive Death across the multiverse without even 1% lack of power.

2. Preretcon Beyonder's lack of omniscience. He couldn't know certain information that Rachel Summers as Phoenix knew... omnipotent beings can by definition be omniscient and omnipresent without anyone's help. In fact, in the close-to-omniscience category, Preretcon Beyonder slugs well behind even Lucifer, let alone the likes of Overmonitor. In fact, even Rachel Summers as Phoenix is closer to omniscience than he is. Not saying that Rachel (or even Jean as White Phoenix of the Crown for that matter) could beat Preretcon Beyonder - far from it - just that he's not omniscient as omnipotent being would be.

So, I agree with much of what you said, but just wanted to say that Overmonitor is pretty damn close to omnipotence, much more so than Preretcon Beyonder and Molecule Man and Fulcrum. But just not 100%.

@raimundopedrosa: oh totality agree overmoniter is a beasty regardless and I'd have him win against Lucy any day I think overall I agree with 100% of what you said me calling him on it omnipotent wasnt to discredit him. It was to give just another reason why I like gaiman a bit more

Vertigo being absorbed into the DC Mythos works just fine and nothing gets changed. Perpetua didn't create these characters or their cosmology, The Presence still did. None of the Monitors made The Presence, it seems that Godlings just sprout into being inside of these places that are made by Monitors.

The Presence, as we all know, understands that. Vertigo writers were messing with Morrison ideas a very long time ago.

When Twitter followers asked the author what he meant, he referenced this comic string and this event.

Scan 1

2

3

4

This is, in a literal sense, the identical idea that Morrison presented in his cosmology that is now the current standard that everyone since has been abiding by. So, the Morrison cosmology wasn't even his own, it came from Vertigo. All Morrison did was detail the ideas presented already.

That was confirmed by a writer to be from peoples beliefs had nothing to do with the monitors also it was said the void and the presence are probably the same age

I know there is a scan floating somewhere on it

An actually dream confirms this I know a few said that dream created the presence from a certain scan but its later shown in lucifer 2016 that there are dreams or belief replicas in the dreaming so if you believed the devil was evil with horns an whatnot in the dreaming there is a lucifer that will look like that