Presence/other supposed "omnipotents" vs The Monitors ( THE final debate )

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Alright , today let's end this debate once and for all. I think I know what Michael Julius wants to convey and why does he say the Monitors > Presence , so I will explain that in this post now.

Basically , his viewpoint his :

The entire DC comics was created by the writer. And for creating the DC comics , he used a tool for creating concepts and the DC comics called the "Overvoid". Overvoid is a tool used by authors to create fiction. The authors draw fiction on the Overvoid . The author is the creator who creates the DCU / DC comics on the Overvoid , and it is made on the Overvoid against it's will , or rather , it did not notice that something was being drawn on it. Here :

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That spider like thing what you see is the DCU / DC comics. That , is what the writer drew on the comic page. That spider like thing is what is called "fiction". The Overvoid is basically the white pages and the space of the comic which can be regarded as God there , since it is the base for creation. It can be regarded as "their" world. And the writer intruded there , and drew the DCU on the Overvoid. That spider/clock like thing , consists of infinite multiverses :

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Now. , the Presence , Lucifer , Michael , Spectre , etc. whoever else you name were created by the writer on the Overvoid. Even the Monitor and the Anti Monitor which the Overvoid mentions were drawn by the writer on the Overvoid to create the DCU. But , the "Dax Novu" which is mentioned was not created by the author , it was created by the Overvoid to find solution to "the flaw" which is DCU , since the Overvoid was shocked after noticing the DCU drawn on it , which is basically text and fiction to it since it was drawn by the author.

Now , since Presence and the other beings were created by the author , they're also basically text in their world , which is the Overvoid. Whereas Dax Novu was created by the Overvoid , and was called a "nil" monitor , was not created by the author and hence will realise that Presence and the DCU drawn by the author is basically fiction. Dax Novu can be said as the original inhabitant of their world , whereas he can notice that the "flaw" drawn on the Overvoid is basically a story , which is also mentioned in the first scan. It is mentioned that a "story" was drawn over the Overvoid and Dax Novu was sent to investigate it , meaning Dax Novu was never part of the story to begin with and was never created by the writer. The writer can create new things on the Overvoid , but he cannot control what has NOT been created by him and what ALREADY exists in the void. Hence , if he wants , he can Retcon the Presence , but not Dax Novu , because he did not create him and holds no right over him. The author can be said as an intruder to their world playing his game and then Dax Novu is sent to investigate what game is being played by a trespasser. The writer cannot play with Dax Novu since he wasn't drawn by him on the void , he can be said as an original resident of the void. And any "fiction" cannot harm an original resident. They can only be harmed by original residents themselves. Hence the Overvoid created TR.

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And similarly , after Dax Novu plan backfired , the Overvoid only created Thought Robot to battle him. Only the consciousness of Superman was transmitted into TR , but he's isn't Superman in any way nor was he created by the author , he was created by the Overvoid. Hence , he's the same as Dax Novu , an original resident of the void who was not created by an external source like author and isn't mere text and pictures. He cannot be harmed by lowly text and pictures. The clock like thing you see ? That's the DCU. He entered that lowly realm to battle Mandrakk. He even says that he's inside a someone else's story :

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That means the DCU is nothing but a non existent fiction to both TR and Dax Novu/Mandrakk. And Mandrakk can only be harmed by an original resident of the void i.e TR. The DCU doesn't belong in the void , it was drawn by the author. That means TR is above the entire DCU as well as all the infinite multiverses that compose the DCU. Whereas Presence is only the god of the infinite multiverses of DCU. Presence is the supreme god of DCU , but in the end he isn't an original resident, and was created by the author only and can be controlled or retconned by the author.

And as for the void being an aspect of the Presence , I am not quite educated to comment about that since I haven't read Vertigo , but according to Michael Julius , that void is again an aspect of the DCU , i.e. an aspect of the spider like thing/ the clock like thing which you see.

I just explained his viewpoint here , I hope this is what he meant. I am tagging everyone. If you've objections , then feel free to comment.

Let the debate begin !!

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DetectiveSomerset__

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Both solos marvel anyways

Don’t bring up toaa he’s Fodder/not omnipotent.

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EineFaust

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#4  Edited By EineFaust

You can have any interpretation as you want to because Composite DC cosmology(officially confirmed) holds every interpretation about DC.

So, Both interpretation can be true.

For me, Please don't forget that it is Grant morrison who began composite DC cosmology.

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Mandrakk doesn't consume fiction. He consumes Bleed. If he goes to Marvel, he can't consume it. His wife basically says that he was powered by the Monitors story and they have found a bigger story in Superman. In the Unexpected he was defeated when his physiology was changed into no longer being able to feed on the Bleed. Also, Only the Monitor brothers have a higher form. They existed above the multiverse in Perpetua's dimension. The other Monitors are nlt the same. When thought robot was built it was before the monitors were created and the multiverse still existed. In your own scan it says that TR was built to protect the Overvoid against the multiverse. I have said this against before but you haven't touched upon it. We see in the page after that scan that TR existed before the monitors as the monitors themselves don't know about its history. Don't bring up scans about which yoi ignore either the context or just ignore blatant statements.

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MichaelJulius

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#6  Edited By MichaelJulius
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@johnsmjs36:

The multiverse is basically a story which was written by the author on the Overvoid forcefully. And we can see that in the above scan that TR is existing outside of the DCU. And the fact that you yourself admitted that he was created by the Overvoid and not drawn by the author. So my point stands that he views everything as fiction. As for the Mandrakk consuming narratives , I guess MichaelJulius already gave you the link.

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MichaelJulius

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@einefaust: @mountacnologia:

Correct. Monitors gave Red Racer his own comic book and other DC properties.

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Nil Monitors can hop into Fictions, literally. Here is Nix Uotan, sitting in Earth 33, the real world version in comic lore of Earth here as we know it. Sitting on his bed reading a comic, who then suddenly dives directly into DC Comics and becomes Nix Uotan, the hero Superjudge of DC Comics, and he toted the other fiction with him. Nil Monitors > Everyone, it is just that simple. This isnt even interpretation, this is just copy and pasting the scans from The Multiversity where this happened.

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BeyondST1001

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Any omnipotent blinks

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EineFaust

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@beyondst1001:

Do you understand that Endless are not omnipotent?

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If the Omnipotent character cannot consume its literal fiction and become the pages it is printed on, then it automatically loses.

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zgtfreak

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#13  Edited By zgtfreak

...

Beyonder solos.

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Jokes aside... the one who is actually omnipotent wins.

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Eigo-Kaiki

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Each one of us solos with just a finger

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of course if the Presence is really a omnipotent being, then he wins.

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ShadowRazer24

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thing solos

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Well ... Nobody brought up a logical counter argument for my statements that Nil Monitors > Presence. Shall I take it that you guys concede that Nil Monitors > Presence ?

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etriel

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#17  Edited By etriel

@einefaust said:

You can have any interpretation as you want to because Composite DC cosmology(officially confirmed) holds every interpretation about DC.

So, Both interpretation can be true.

For me, Please don't forget that it is Grant morrison who began composite DC cosmology.

?

a good bulk of composite-DC's strength comes from the vertigo tiering off of M. carey's "the unwritten". which allowed DC to surpass Umineko.

all morrison did was promote to unify the works that wasnt his doing and wasnt his imagination at all. he did great, but he is the glue and thats what he is.

composite-DC is a teamwork. and no one single writer of DC could have pulled it off alone. it is why DC has the most diverse meta-powerset systems out all other fictions.

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johnsmjs36

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@mountacnologia: I have not seen anything to suggest Nil Monitors> Presence

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@johnsmjs36 said:

@mountacnologia: I have not seen anything to suggest Nil Monitors> Presence

I did , the entire post is about nil Monitors viewing DCU as fiction and the entire DCU being text and ink to them. What else do you want ? Also the fact that the void which was supposed to be an aspect of Presence is not the Overvoid but the space between his creations in Vertigo which still falls inside the multiverse. So there's nothing suggesting Overvoid is an aspect of Presence. So Presence is completely fiction and text to the nil Monitors and he cannot harm them , who aren't just ink drawn by the author. So unless you prove otherwise , Nil Monitors > Presence. So much proof is provided.

You can also check Julius' link https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/final-crisis-explained-2045835/

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etriel

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#20  Edited By etriel

@mountacnologia: Nil monitors are copyrighted, fictional characters of DC and you are saying they view all of DC as fiction when they are seen in copyrighted books that earn DC money? they are part of DC. their character designs were made by people, hired artists who are paid money by DC's budget to design characters for DC.

the comic book page of DC is not some "MONITOR MIND INTELLIGENCE" they are literal dead pieces of trees. probably harvested by 3rd world workers who are paid slave wages or some sh*t. or some DC comics factory in china.

they do not view DC as fiction.

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KevinFeige

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Presence > Everyone else no matter what

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MichaelJulius

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#22  Edited By MichaelJulius

@johnsmjs36 Yes, you have. You simply don't want to accept it. A Monitor pulls a Jason Statham and swan dives directly into DC Comics. These scans are in linear order: Uotan on his bed in the real world analogue that represents our world here, he hears Ultra talking to him, he literally dives into DC Comics and totes Ultra with him. Seriously. This debate is 100% over. I don't know why this thread isn't closed when it blatantly shows that Monitors regard Vertigo and DC as a literal fictive world they can exit and enter.

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Presence > Everyone else no matter what

Except Mandrakk and TR, now that the entire thing has been debunked and nobody has any counters against the proof I provided except for saying "Presence is greater than them no matter what , no you are wrong" , when they have no scans to back up their statements. If you want your statement to be true , then provide scans backing it up , just like me. Without proof , your statements mean nothing , I have got proof , you guys have not.

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@etriel said:

@mountacnologia: Nil monitors are copyrighted, fictional characters of DC and you are saying they view all of DC as fiction when they are seen in copyrighted books that earn DC money? they are part of DC. their character designs were made by people, hired artists who are paid money by DC's budget to design characters for DC.

the comic book page of DC is not some "MONITOR MIND INTELLIGENCE" they are literal dead pieces of trees. probably harvested by 3rd world workers who are paid slave wages or some sh*t. or some DC comics factory in china.

they do not view DC as fiction.

It's literally mentioned in the scans I posted that TR went purposely inside the fiction. It's mentioned how the Overvoid realised someone ( author ) had drawn the DCU on the Overvoid , it's mentioned how it created Dax Novu to investigate the flaw i.e. DCU , it's mentioned how Dax Novu entered the DCU , I.e. story , it is mentioned how the greed of consuming fictions corrupted the mind of Dax Novu , it's mentioned how TR is inside a self assembling hyper story , it is shown on screen how TR is outside the orrey of worlds i.e. the DCU where no DC character is capable of travelling to , and Julius' scans and posts again further prove that they see everything as fiction , and yet you don't want to accept it because you don't like it. You've got no proof to back up your statements .

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baph

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#25  Edited By baph

@majinblackheart:

This is not really a battle.

And the OP is using omnipotent characters.

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zgtfreak

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@etriel: the comic book page of DC is not some "MONITOR MIND INTELLIGENCE" they are literal dead pieces of trees.

This. ^ LOL

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etriel

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#27  Edited By etriel

@mountacnologia said:

It's literally mentioned in the scans I posted that TR went purposely inside the fiction.

there is no concrete historical record of a "superman wearing blue tights and fighting with supapowaz sh*t to save the day" before the 20th century.

thought robot superman is an illustrated idea written by grant morrison who was born january 1960. grant morrison belongs to a species of biological organisms known as homo sapiens. that evolved from a process of abiogenesis from primordial soup millions of years ago through a chain of species to species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

illustrated upon, using dead pieces of trees with some modern electronic means of printing ink on illustrated said paper.

there is no "superman" living or breating on this planet ever.

It's mentioned how the Overvoid realised someone ( author ) had drawn the DCU on the Overvoid ,

i am literally holding my own copy of the unexpected and dark knights metal. i am trying to talk to the dead piece of tree and it is not self aware.

pieces of dead trees are deceased and have no means of containing some internal system to support the software functions (or of like) for a self-concious being.

in fact. even when it was alive. dead trees are not self-concious. nor aware or have "feelings" to some ink printed on them.

it's mentioned how it created Dax Novu to investigate the flaw i.e. DCU , it's mentioned how Dax Novu entered the DCU ,

dax novu only started appearing in DC comics under morrison's cosmology. before morrison was born, no human on earth even thought of a "vampire dax novu".

dax novu is named after some mythological god from some dead people from some ancient times.

these are all facts.

You've got no proof to back up your statements .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Morrison

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etriel

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#28  Edited By etriel

@mountacnologia:

ORIGIN OF DC COMICS

Origins[edit]

Entrepreneur Major Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson founded National Allied Publications in autumn 1934.[1][10][11] The company debuted with the tabloid-sized New Fun: The Big Comic Magazine #1 with a cover date of February 1935.[12][13] The company's second title, New Comics #1 (Dec. 1935), appeared in a size close to what would become comic books' standard during the period fans and historians call the Golden Age of Comic Books, with slightly larger dimensions than today's.[14]That title evolved into Adventure Comics, which continued through issue #503 in 1983, becoming one of the longest-running comic-book series. In 2009 DC revived Adventure Comics with its original numbering.[15] In 1935, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, the future creators of Superman, created Doctor Occult, who is the earliest DC Comics character to still be in theDC Universe.

Wheeler-Nicholson's third and final title, Detective Comics, advertised with a cover illustration dated December 1936, eventually premiered three months late with a March 1937 cover date. The themed anthology series would become a sensation with the introduction of Batman in issue #27 (May 1939). By then, however, Wheeler-Nicholson had gone. In 1937, in debt to printing-plant owner and magazine distributor Harry Donenfeld—who also published pulp magazines and operated as a principal in the magazine distributorship Independent News—Wheeler-Nicholson had to take Donenfeld on as a partner in order to publish Detective Comics #1. Detective Comics, Inc. was formed, with Wheeler-Nicholson and Jack S. Liebowitz, Donenfeld's accountant, listed as owners. Major Wheeler-Nicholson remained for a year, but cash-flow problems continued, and he was forced out. Shortly afterwards, Detective Comics, Inc. purchased the remains of National Allied, also known as Nicholson Publishing, at a bankruptcy auction.[16]

Detective Comics, Inc. soon launched a fourth title, Action Comics, the premiere of which introduced Superman. Action Comics #1 (June 1938), the first comic book to feature the new character archetype—soon known as "superheroes"—proved a sales hit. The company quickly introduced such other popular characters as the Sandman and Batman.

On February 22, 2010, a copy of Action Comics #1 (June 1938) sold at an auction from an anonymous seller to an anonymous buyer for $1 million, besting the $317,000 record for a comic book set by a different copy, in lesser condition, the previous year.[17]

---------------

see? there is no mention of a monitor mind the overvoid. or dax novu or whatever. it is an artificial, hyperbolic creation of grant morrison that you people took way too literally.

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etriel

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@mountacnologia: this is something that i got from you:

if grant morrison says something, it is fact. and grant morrison doesnt need to prove it.

how does that work? when einstein had proposed his theories, they needed to be proven. just some "statement" is not enough. nor printing pieces of paper saying "i am right" is evidence.

morrison needs evidence to prove that cosmic armor superman existed before our universe. he is neither a physicist nor a scientist nor any basis of machinery to confirm the existence of "META BEINGS" otherwise.

by this logic, every religion that existed is true because "AUTHOR STATEMENT".

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MichaelJulius

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Things got super weird just now in this thread. Time to tap out.

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@etriel:

Bruh how do you interpret what I say the wrong way. Obviously CAS doesn't exist in our world , and the notion of it is ridiculous. Did you even read my post. Or may be you know , but are purposely trying to twist my words so they appear ridiculous.

The Overvoid can be said as another world , if you want to interpret it that way. It is the blank canvas , the blank canvas of the comic book , the pages. It is a TOOL used by the author to write comics. When the author wrote tue DCU , it automatically got printed on the Overvoid's body. The DCU was forcibly drawn by the author on Overvoid's body. The entire DCU fiction is nothing than a small "flaw" or "dirt" on the Overvoid's body. Mandrakk was created by the Overvoid to check this flaw. This is THEIR world. Not ours. When I say Mandrakk is above fiction , you realise how small this "fiction" is to the Overvoid ? This small :

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That spider like thing you see , that's DCU. THAT'S fiction. THAT'S the orrey of multiverses the author drew on the Overvoid. Overvoid noticed it , and then created Mandrakk to investigate what that was. The other monitors like Perpetua , Monitor , etc. were NOT created by the Overvoid , they were drawn by the author. Whatever is drawn by the author , he possesses complete contol over that. He can play around with the DCU since it is his creation , it is fiction and basically text. But he CANNOT play around with something that is not text , i.e. Mandrakk. That guy was created by the Overvoid to check what the flaw was. He can be called as something beyond text , but in THEIR world , if you want to call it that way. The author cannot mess with something he did not create and is not mere text. He is in the comic book , but he's not simple text who can be erased. He entered the "story" to check what it was. From their perspective , it's a story. That does not mean in ANY way they exist in our world.

There's no mention of Overvoid in DC comics because it exists outside of that. The entire DC comics is nothing but fiction to it. Imaginary text. That's it. It is not a part of DC. You can say it is a container for entirety of fiction. Obviously there will be no mention of it since it is nowhere in the DC hierarchy. That's like saying real world author doesn't have any reference in the DC comics. Overvoid is not just limited to DC.

I have a suspicion you already knew because I had explained everything in my post properly , but never mind.

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Presence swipes his hand an the monitors cess to annoy him

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etriel

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#34  Edited By etriel

@mountacnologia: you are citing cartoon drawings drawn within the last 2 decades. i am citing real life wikias verified by actual birth records of grant morrison, and the actual historical records of real life intellectual copyrighted companies during the first early half of the 21st century.

and scientific papers on the sight of pieces of paper. which make no scientific claim of intelligence supported by the dead chromosomes of biodegradable objects.

by the way. paper is biodegredable.

you are the one citing sources but who uses cartoon drawings to prove something exists? by that logic. if i a draw a unicorn or pony, its real because i say it is?

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etriel

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@etriel:

Duh .. See I explained the cosmology to you , now it's up to you whether you take it or not. I even told you there's no damn bullshit relation between CAS and our world , but if ya not wanna take it , fine. You are again and again taking my point as CAS belongs in real world , when I am not a moron to say something like that. He exists in the void , in which DCU is a small germ , and hence he is "above DCU". I am not falling for your bait , I have explained my point , provide valid proof that Presence is above them.

But yeah , forgot to mention one thing. Thanks for making me laugh , that one was good. Lol.

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Soratoumiga

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KevinFeige

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Lmaoooooooooo

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Transcendlimitless

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etriel

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#42  Edited By etriel

@mountacnologia said:

@etriel:

Duh .. See I explained the cosmology to you , now it's up to you whether you take it or not.

it is not my concern if you think you can decide, who is the one who has to take it or not.

i am not the one arguing that biodegradable, machine capitalistically processed pieces of plant biology that you bought with biodegradable paper currency backed by the US federal reserve is somehow alive, self-concious and is intelligent because some bald, indo-european humanoid specimen born somewhere in scotland said so.

you. you are the one.

i am merely citing facts of reality of what pieces of biodegradable paper are.

in fact. biodegradable paper with ink on them is just that. human mind PROJECTS are onto physical objects processed by your brain's imagination. because you command what you perceive is a "form" that describes a concept in your mind, into a picture.

but that picture is really?

your brain "interprets" these forms as containing "something" when it is really just ink splattered onto machine processed paper powered by electricity which is then ultimately powered by dead dinosaour bones millions of years ago.

you know. like how sometimes you see an anthropomorphic object sometimes in the trees or in the clouds because your brain creates the illusion of a connectory image.

plato knew this., and human perception of reality often does not conform. look how scientists recategorized the species of bananas that exist.

ink is also chemically produced substances traded by biological pieces of paper or electric credit backed by gold material. it has been used on clothes, not just paper.

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