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#1 Edited by Sungsam (1830 posts) - - Show Bio

Presence (Composite DC/Vertigo) vs Gan (The Dark Tower)

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Two Gods. Inspired by the Judeo-Christian God, and rule over large Multiverses go face to face.

RULES

  • Composite positive feats and statements for Presence in all his appearances.

  • Assume all Hype and statements and feats for Gan.

  • Exceptions of no Omnipotent Wanking for either and no Jobbing. And no Meta wank for Gan. Just like in my Living Tribunal vs Gan thread.

  • Scale to Cosmology.

  • Location: Neutral Multiverse.

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#2 Edited by Sungsam (1830 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Juliusz2006 (483 posts) - - Show Bio

damn

imo neither of them are omnipotent

however i ll give it to the presence since from gan s description he is more like the Beyonder or LT

give it to the presence

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#4 Posted by etriel (177 posts) - - Show Bio

a composite presence is literally omnipotent as jmd thinks presence is omnipotent and he would totally win. by all logical reasoning @sungsam your thread should be locked. thought you already knew that. you were even the longest proponent of jmd's brand of the presence. lol

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#5 Posted by Sungsam (1830 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel said:

a composite presence is literally omnipotent as jmd thinks presence is omnipotent and he would totally win. by all logical reasoning @sungsam your thread should be locked. thought you already knew that. you were even the longest proponent of jmd's brand of the presence. lol

The statements of the Presence from Matteis are literally author statements unpublished by DC that never appear in comics. As you know, assume feats and hype within the confines of Presence's appearances and off statements don't count as appearances now do they?

And since you didn't read, I stipulated the exception of Omnipotent wanking.

damn

imo neither of them are omnipotent

however i ll give it to the presence since from gan s description he is more like the Beyonder or LT

give it to the presence

Hey Jul! How's VSBattles going on?

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#6 Posted by Revold (525 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel said:

a composite presence is literally omnipotent as jmd thinks presence is omnipotent and he would totally win. by all logical reasoning @sungsam your thread should be locked. thought you already knew that. you were even the longest proponent of jmd's brand of the presence. lol

Author statements are BS 90% of the time tho. There's no such thing as composite Presence since there is only one, unless you are saying there are multiple which implies that he is bounded to some reality??

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#7 Posted by etriel (177 posts) - - Show Bio

@revold said:
@etriel said:

a composite presence is literally omnipotent as jmd thinks presence is omnipotent and he would totally win. by all logical reasoning @sungsam your thread should be locked. thought you already knew that. you were even the longest proponent of jmd's brand of the presence. lol

Author statements are BS 90% of the time tho. There's no such thing as composite Presence since there is only one, unless you are saying there are multiple which implies that he is bounded to some reality??

multiple versions theory of the presence and the dc cosmology is an idea that @sungsam came up with several months ago. not me. im using his criteria only for this thread. hes the one who said 'composite presence'.

presence is not omnipotent but sung/rothschild did say to assume all hype as part of his allowed conditions for the fight. i just forgot to read that he excluded omnipotence wank. my bad.

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#8 Posted by Supermanthor (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

Presence

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#9 Edited by Sungsam (1830 posts) - - Show Bio
@revold said:
@etriel said:

a composite presence is literally omnipotent as jmd thinks presence is omnipotent and he would totally win. by all logical reasoning @sungsam your thread should be locked. thought you already knew that. you were even the longest proponent of jmd's brand of the presence. lol

Author statements are BS 90% of the time tho. There's no such thing as composite Presence since there is only one, unless you are saying there are multiple which implies that he is bounded to some reality??

You can have multiple versions of yourself that are not necessarily bounded to some reality. There are characters for example in Dies Irae where you have Timeless, Spaceless, Non-Physical Transcending Hadou God characters summoning many versions of themselves. There is no rule in fiction that implies that there can only be one of you, if you transcend reality. In fact, this is a rule that VSBattles made up then sometimes makes many exceptions for it which is why I don't take them too seriously.

We don't know if there is only one Presence or not. We know that even Lucifer who transcends Time, Space and Infinity in fact appeared with probably infinite other versions of himself outside of Creation/Multiverse and in the Infinite Timeless Spaceless Void.

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All these other versions of himself are called 'conjugations' if you look it up, it which means 'variation'. meaning they are variations of Lucifer. My theory is that there are different Lucifers who went through roughly the same kind of story, only slightly different events, but these different causalities of Lucifer and ended up converging into one singularity point pf exostence and merged into ONE Lucifer which explains why the other Lucifers disappeared in the next panel.

Now, what do I mean when I say there are different Presence? It's not that I think that there are different VERSIONS of Presence for every infinite endless Lucifer. But the Presence has appeared under both DC and Vertigo, and written by different writers, who portray the God differently. What I'm saying is that THE PRESENCE has been retconned or writers poorly collude to one another.

For example, Presence is famously stated to be created or shaped by the Dream's of humanity.

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But in Spectre, Hal Jordan literally states that it is the other way around. That the Universe/All of Existence/Creation is rather a Dream of the Presence. Or part of the Presence or the minds and thoughts.

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Sandman Writers typically view Sandman as a separate continuity, even M. Carey differentiated Sandman if you do a quick look up on his tweets yourself.

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See that? He says "In Sandman Continuity" meaning in his view, he probably is differentiating Mainstream DC continuity for Sandman because he doesn't view them as strictly the same or something.

Although Scott and Grant Morrison attempted to retcon them and incorporate them for some reason.

The Presence has different feats and aspects and portrayals by different writers that literally contradict one another. And they don't even agree on what is canon and what is not. This is why I say COMPOSITE PRESENCE, not that there are different Presence running around, but the character has many outliers contradicting other outliers to the point it's better to argue for or against Presence if you composite him by the ideas of all writers of DC.

That is all.

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#10 Edited by katrurius17 (1126 posts) - - Show Bio

Presence i guess.

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#11 Posted by ArthurCurry89 (1244 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought they are the same guy

Online
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#12 Posted by Mister_Surreal (4478 posts) - - Show Bio

Presnce should with purely because of better on panel feats.

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#13 Posted by Revold (525 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

You can have multiple versions of yourself that are not necessarily bounded to some reality. There are characters for example in Dies Irae where you have Timeless, Spaceless, Non-Physical Transcending Hadou God characters summoning many versions of themselves. There is no rule in fiction that implies that there can only be one of you, if you transcend reality. In fact, this is a rule that VSBattles made up then sometimes makes many exceptions for it which is why I don't take them too seriously.

Yes I know what you mean. Of course Omnipotents can have as many versions as they want. But as readers who knows the lore of comics a character who has multiple versions/retconned etc. are more likely to be not omnipotent than another character who don't. I'm not saying it's impossible, but unless there are evidence suggesting otherwise, this is nonetheless a factor that we as readers look out for in determining whether or not one is Omnipotent.

We don't know if there is only one Presence or not. We know that even Lucifer who transcends Time, Space and Infinity in fact appeared with probably infinite other versions of himself outside of Creation/Multiverse and in the Infinite Timeless Spaceless Void.

No Caption Provided

All these other versions of himself are called 'conjugations' if you look it up, it which means 'variation'. meaning they are variations of Lucifer. My theory is that there are different Lucifers who went through roughly the same kind of story, only slightly different events, but these different causalities of Lucifer and ended up converging into one singularity point pf exostence and merged into ONE Lucifer which explains why the other Lucifers disappeared in the next panel.

Yes, because there is only a single Lucifer in every Creation, just like there is only one Heaven and Hell in every Creation, and one Michael, Gabriel etc. These are also Multiversal singularities (only one in every multiverse). It is known that there are infinite multiverse in just New 52. IIRC it is also known that the Presence knowingly created more than one multiverse (may or may not be all). So here we go, One Presence, Many Lucifers.

Now, what do I mean when I say there are different Presence? It's not that I think that there are different VERSIONS of Presence for every infinite endless Lucifer. But the Presence has appeared under both DC and Vertigo, and written by different writers, who portray the God differently. What I'm saying is that THE PRESENCE has been retconned or writers poorly collude to one another.

Well DC is known for bringingack retconned stuff as an alternate version. Like how Golden Age was retconned, or Pre-52 etc.

For example, Presence is famously stated to be created or shaped by the Dream's of humanity.

No Caption Provided

But in Spectre, Hal Jordan literally states that it is the other way around. That the Universe/All of Existence/Creation is rather a Dream of the Presence. Or part of the Presence or the minds and thoughts.

No Caption Provided

It's my first time seeing this so I don't know the context of this scan, but I don't think we should jump into conclusion and say that he refers to the Presence. God can mean a lot of things, maybe the writers, or the Source etc. I know it's a Spectre comic but again idk the context. And also how does Hal Jordan of all people knows how the Universe work? Not to mention this may not contradict Carey's point. Creation may be The Presence's imagination, but we know for a fact that Creation (and the Presence himself) is also the writers' imagination? I won't be too quick to say that there's any retcon just from this questionable panel.

Sandman Writers typically view Sandman as a separate continuity, even M. Carey differentiated Sandman if you do a quick look up on his tweets yourself.
No Caption Provided

See that? He says "In Sandman Continuity" meaning in his view, he probably is differentiating Mainstream DC continuity for Sandman because he doesn't view them as strictly the same or something.

Although Scott and Grant Morrison attempted to retcon them and incorporate them for some reason.

The Presence has different feats and aspects and portrayals by different writers that literally contradict one another. And they don't even agree on what is canon and what is not. This is why I say COMPOSITE PRESENCE, not that there are different Presence running around, but the character has many outliers contradicting other outliers to the point it's better to argue for or against Presence if you composite him by the ideas of all writers of DC.

Sandman is in fact a separate continuity. What exactly is a continuity is a difficult topic but just like Carey said we're getting tangled up in the semantics, so let's just say this: Sandman and everything Vertigo basically didn't exist to the main DC people and vice versa, except the Presence, which IIRC the only character that appeared on both sides. What is stopping you from saying that the Presence in Vertigo is the same one as the DC one? Because they were written by different writers? That's not a valid reason because in comics, even the same run can be written by different people. And then when you look at Rebirth, Vertigo characters could just crossover to DC like nothing. So now are they the same Continuity? What is Canon? I can't get into the nitty gritty stuff here. Fans have been debating for years but still unable to produce a coherent answer.

Bottom line is that until I see evidence, I would say there is only one Presence. Even with different versions of himself showing up in different places, as long as they all have the same knowledge, wouldn't that make him the same? The Presence can make a smaller version of himself without the full knowledge he has, but that wouldn't really be the "the Presence" we are talking about here right?

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#14 Posted by Juliusz2006 (483 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@etriel said:

a composite presence is literally omnipotent as jmd thinks presence is omnipotent and he would totally win. by all logical reasoning @sungsam your thread should be locked. thought you already knew that. you were even the longest proponent of jmd's brand of the presence. lol

The statements of the Presence from Matteis are literally author statements unpublished by DC that never appear in comics. As you know, assume feats and hype within the confines of Presence's appearances and off statements don't count as appearances now do they?

And since you didn't read, I stipulated the exception of Omnipotent wanking.

@juliusz2006 said:

damn

imo neither of them are omnipotent

however i ll give it to the presence since from gan s description he is more like the Beyonder or LT

give it to the presence

Hey Jul! How's VSBattles going on?

havent been there for decades lol i did a little break from comic vine and all the other forums i ll check i out