Pre-Retcon Beyonder vs Oblivion

Beyonder still stomps, this is way beyond a simple mismatch, it should be locked.

What in the world are you talking about?? Who/What even is Almighty and Existence?

Do you even know what you are talking about?? Or you are just throwing big words like Infinite Dimensional Multiversal powers. How about giving some evidence/scans to back you up instead of your own personal opinion and pure speculation?

Multiverses give birth to higher dimensional multiverses? An infinite dimensional non-dimension? Nothing you say makes any sense! And evidence? Why these particular choice of words?

And BTW do you know what a feat is...

Your entire post implies that you literally know nothing about Beyonder, Marvel and Oblivion. And almighty and existence? Those are not characters. You are literally misreading everything.

Why are you even on this thread? Go read respect threads about Marvel's Cosmology and Beyonder, much of what I said are so commonly known to Marvel familiars that It's ridiculous for me to stoop this low. I don't feel like writing a long long long ass essay that I've explained to others many times before.

Just Googling the word doesn't make you to understand a complex paradoxical concept like Omnipotence. I suggest you go do some research on the topic before you think you understand what it even means....

There is something called the Suspension of Disbelief. Any assertion we make about a fictional character, such as "Iron Man is a genius" will automatically be false since they don't even exist! It's like saying "My girlfriend likes apples." which is immediately false.

So when we say a character is Omnipotent, of course we don't mean that they really are! We mean that they are Omnipotent within the context of that "reality", if it is as described by the narrative. So if the story outright tells you "Person A is Omnipotent", who are you to defend that he isn't?

It's not about my knowledge of Beyonder. When you make a claim about something, the natural thing for people to do is to ask for substantiation. The burden of proof lies on you. I do not necessarily disagree with your stand, but your choice of words and claims are very questionable. It is as if you derive all your information from forums and wiki pages, without regard for the source material (which is what you should be using). I do not need an essay, I just need direct evidence.

Oh BTW i really don't know who/what do you refer to by "Almighty and Existence".

I agree with everything you said really. No one in fiction is this, that or that. No one is Omnipotent or even non-Omnipotent either. They don't exist.

In fact, your latter paragraph is literally what I'm alluding to. Omnipotent within the context of that reality it is, which means all possible powers that we humans can imagine, but fictional characters are not existing, they're just theories made of human ideas based on abstractions and false understandings of our reality.

So be it. But I'll only send you one at a time by progress, post by post, since this stuff is too much.

This is my basal reasoning as to why Marvel's Higher Levels of existence are much bigger than imagined. (Marvel's Multiverse is an Infintie Higher Spatial Dimensional Multiverse, stated many times in these links 7, 8, 9, 10 , 11 , 12)

According to this exchange between Thanos and TOAA, a single Thanos in a linear time space can create infinite unimaginable realities spawning from a divergent point of choosing whether or not to touch his nose or not. Implying, that this probably happens, timelines split into infinite timelines every constant. And this is just Earth 616 Thanos, creating infinite timelines by just movement alone, among the countless other Thanos's from other Multiverses?

What does that say about Marvel's Multiverses and Megaverses that are already known to be infinite dimensional? Does this not imply that a Universe splits into Multiverses and etc,? Then how big are the parent Multiverses then that were already infinite?

A single 4D space time continuum can split into infinite timelines. And those infinite timelines can split into infinite individual multiverses, then megaverses and so on and so forth.

In addition. Beyonder's Beyond Realm literally exists outside of Marvel's Multiverse that is Infinite Dimensional, and as we know from TOAA and Thanos, a single timeline (4D space time continuum) it can multiply into infinite realities alone with just the smallest of variables.

So Beyonder is an embodiment of the Beyond Realm, that sees Marvel's entire Multiverse that is infinite layered dimension, that spawns universes into multiverses in its lowest aspects alone, as being a droplet of water to an ocean in the eyes of Beyonder's Embodiment (In our Ocean, there are quintillion quadrillion droplets of water within our Ocean). Of which, Beyonder can easily just crush and destroy given his mass and Nigh Omnipotence relative to the Multiverse.

Beyonder's Beyond Realm has also been described as Infinite Dimensional and a Multiverse, but considering the nature of the Beyond Realm being white, it is safe to imply that Beyonder's dimensions are not the same as Marvel's Multiverse's dimensions, which is why I describe it as non-dimension because Beyonder's realm is difficult to fully explain given its self-contradicting nature, nonetheless.

Because Beyonder is described as being infinite dimensioned, but also beyond all time and space and all existence, which self-contradicts itself.

And if I seem like a douche, sorry for that, just in a bad mood.

I said that because of this:

Correct me if I missed something.

The Beyonders come out of nowhere and stomp them both

Pre-retcon Beyonder.

Beyonder stomps.

exactly my thoughts

however you forgot the never queen ,the beyonders , the first firmament and the ultimate ultimates

my list would be

1. TOAA

2. HOTU thanos

3. Pre-retcon beyonder

4. Pre-retcon molecule man

5. never queen

6. beyonders

7. living tribunal

8. IG

9. ultimate nullifier

10. the ultimate ultimates

11. first firmament

12. multi eternity/multi-infinity/abraxas

13. atleza/oblivion

14. infinities

15. multi-death

16. the makers

17. cosmic containment units

@juliusz2006: @saymon3000: He is not omnipotent

First firmament & LT should be above never queen imo

first firmament is slightly stronger than eternity

well logos which was pretty much LT had no claim over the never queen and even seemed to fear her her only weakness is her heart she is pretty much posibility itself

HOTU Thanos should never be in this list and PRB should be second to TOAA.

HOTU Thanos is just an Omnipotent proxy for TOAA, he literally should not count. Feat comparison wise, HOTU's biggest feat is absorbing all the abstracts such as LT, Eternity and Infinity with some difficulty or resistance while Beyonder should, by most sound deductions, should be able to blink fodderize them in a second given that Beyonder is hundreds of quintillions quadrillions (ocean to droplet ratio) times greater the combined power of all those infinitely chained multiplying multiversal infinities of power levels of all those Abstracts characters (including Oblivion, MM in the mix) and Beyonder himself is an Infinite Higher Spatial Void Dimensional Multiplying and Growing power at a ridiculous scale.

Why do I say growing power? The only logical way to be more powerful to destroy an Infinite Dimensional Multiverse that expands itself is to be also possessing of Infinite Hierarchical Power levels and Growing.

Not counting feats, the only area where HOTU Thanos gets an edge over Beyonder is that he is an Omnipotent Proxy and he CAN absorb Beyonder, but that's just TOAA's power doing it. That's literally no better than putting a Biblical Prophet in this list or putting Peter Parker here because he had the Beyonder's powers once.

Don't think anyone beats the Beyonder can beat anyone he chooses, even HOTU Thanos in my opinion

Supposedly, but consider this, P.R. Beyonder is likely FAR more powerful than the majority of people who criticize him moderately would believe (even post retcon) and P.R. Beyonder is still the second most powerful in Marvel to date in all iterations in composite. But Beyonder has weaknesses and flaws that must be addressed, such is that his warping powers are meta energy to vessel based that seem transferable, and he requires tangibility of transferring of his power to use it, and he can lose his power and needs to retrieve it to get it back which he always has trouble doing which makes Beyonder's powers vulnerable due to his powers being not so resilient when it comes to method of function. You will never see such difficulty with the likes of Featherine or Primal Monitor whose powers are not dependent on "energies" and their powers are just is and as is.

But to be fair these inconveniences only happened because he either depowered himself to a 3 dimensional vessel from an infinite beyonderversal void (which might make him vulnerable) and most of the time and when he loses his power, it was because he allowed it and he was still much more powerful than all of LT's court for some reason.

I typically discount what happened to Beyonder and Phoenix Force being an anti-Feat because much of what was happening in that panel was odd. It seems highly illogical that a being beyond the Marvel Multiverse would be overwhelmed by knowledge about a multiverse that is an infinitesimal to him, that is beneath LT who Beyonder was infinitely more powerful than, and seems to be a massive Outlier anti-Feat. Probably, Beyonder at that time was still imposing limits on himself so he can have more mortal experience (which is what Beyonder does, in fact, there was a scan somewhere that implies he retconned himself and purposefully changes his identity) these head-canonical theories of mine, but what happened there was highly illogical and demands explanation as it contradicts everything that Beyonder was supposed to be prior. We should also understand however, that the definition of a "Pre-Retcon" beyonder changes, sometimes it is restricted to Beyonder's Secret Wars I and II portrayal only.

Anyway, Beyonder would mostly suffer against similar level characters who have have more resilient, more reliable, more how do you say? mobile forms of power mechanics and efficient trigger function within their Omnipotent powers.

What other comes to mind that would stalemate/beat Beyonder are the likes of Primal Monitor, Great Evil Beast, etc. but those guys are just batshit crazy powerful, it's clear that you need ridiculous ridiculous characters to kill or rival something as ridiculous as Beyonder.

@sungsam: This Information is correct. I find it annoying Beyonder limits himself though I suppose Hed be bored if He didn't.

How is this thread still going?

Oblivion gets absolutely crushed. Not even somewhat close.

That's what a Bored, "In-Character" Beyonder does. He limits himself. Beyonder was written to be an Outer-Omni-Dimensional-Void-God who was beyond and transcended Marvel's Infintie-Powers/Omniverse/Multiverse and all its beings, but had the curiosity of a human child and as such, all these shortcomings occur to Beyonder.

A Bloodlusted PR Beyonder is something else.

Beyonder would not have limited himself in any way and just destroyed Molecule Man, Living Tribunal, Oblivion, Eternity, Infinity, fuck, everything in Marvel's Multiverse save for TOAA by logically just crushing everything that exists beneath his realm with his Outervoid Mass alone, and could arguably recreate every Marvel abstract them and destroy them again and again and again. Hell, Beyonder has the resources to create more powerful versions of every Marvel abstract that exists in theory to serve him and make them fight the Marvel Abstracts instead of direct confrontation.

Hell, Beyonder would have slapped the shit out of Oblivion for being too much of a fucking nihilistic edgelord.

A Bloodlusted Pre-Retcon Beyonder would have had no conversation shit, and just fucking raped Jean Summers on the spot, to bleeding multiversal death splat across the fucking multiverse while the X-Men watched and recorded the whole thing. Make a Marvel Issue look like a Hentai Doujin.

A Bloodlusted Pre-Retcon Beyonder would not have played with identity shit with Kubik and Shaper of Worlds, he would have wiped his ass with their corpses.

A Bloodlusted Pre-Retcon Beyonder in place of Post-Retcon Beyonder would snap that Brat Protege like a fucking twig and shown him what's what. And would have mutilated all of LT's faces for daring to try to exile him to the Beyond Realm and turn Scathan into a fucking Michael Bay Transformers scrapheap to the point that Scathan looks indistinguishable to a junkyard of scrap metal.

A Bloodlusted Pre-Retcon Beyonder would commit genocide on his own race, starting with the asses of the Ivory Kings. Or just become outright Alpha God of his entire race or become a Beyonder Hitler, killing any fodder tier Beyonder and keeping all the women of his kind to himself.

See? Beyonder is a character, he's not just a walking character designed to look powerful like Suggsverse, he has a curiosity. Had he been the other way, we'd all see him different. If he just had his way with everything, there would be no plot.

Marvel would change its name to just become "Beyonder Fucks Up Everything in Existence", kills your gods, steals yo girl and all that shit. Marvel was that close to making Beyonder the Tier 0 Omnipotent of Marvel, but they messed up a bit here and there, and outright retconned him, they don't even agree on how to retcon him even more so.

@sungsam: well, i didn't know that shakespear hangs out in comic vine!

Almost 99% of the mass of the human body is made up of six elements: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus. Only about 0.85% is composed of another five elements: potassium, sulfur, sodium, chlorine, and magnesium

In summary, for a typical human of 70 kg, there are almost 7*1027 atoms (that's a 7 followed by 27 zeros!) Another way of saying this is "approximately 7 octillion." Of this, almost 2/3 is hydrogen, 1/4 is oxygen, and about 1/10 is carbon. These three atoms add up to 99% of the total!

beyonder official weight is 108 KG so there is an increasement of a an almost 60%, which means we will multiply the given number by a factor of 6,

then it would mean 7 octillion x 6 would be 42 Octillion as atoms and then multiply that 42 octillion by 6 since almost all those atoms have 6 electrons par each this would mean 252 octillion electrons, since the beyoner stated it while being in the milky way we will then have to figure out the total enery level of our galaxy, since the level of energy to destroy the milky way is approximately 300 sexdecillion Joule or 7 sixtillion Megaton of TNT, the number of the galaxies in the observable universe is 2 trillion galaxies with some having less or more than the milky way, though for the sake of simplfying it, let's use milky way as an inbetween, this would mean the beyonder has more power/energy than 126 billion universe ''might be less'',

note: the calculations are a 1% off since i only concluded 99%

then compared to all of the universes that existed in marvel:

As far as I know, no one has ever sat down and counted all of the universes that exist in the Marvel (and associated) worlds. The reason is that new universe "numbers" are assigned for several different reasons, and they are not all on equal footing. The Marvel Wikia lists around 1500, including quite a few unofficial ones, but not including temporary universes (which never got a number), and that list is probably incomplete.

Secret Wars

Technically, as of right now, there are very few Marvel universes. The recently released Secret Wars(the 2015 one, not to be confused with the one from 1984) event has effectively erased all numbered comic-book universes from existence, leaving only Battleworld. Once that event series is over, in theory there will only be 1 comics universe.

Note that the cinematic universes are unaffected by Secret Wars, meaning in reality there will be about a dozen universes left, but the vast majority of them are defunct. (See below for what we mean by a "cinematic" universe.)

However, pre-Secret Wars, there were tons, getting assigned numbers for a couple of different reasons:

Mainstream Universes

First of all, there are the "main" universes. These are the ones that include the bulk of Marvel's storytelling, that include multiple characters from multiple titles crossing over into each other's storylines. Of these, there are three "main" ones:

• Earth-616 - The universe in which the vast majority of the Marvel comics stories take place. Typically, unless otherwise specified, any given Marvel comic book probably takes place in this universe.
• Earth-1610 - the so-called Ultimate comics universe. An alternate universe that is a "modern reimagining" of the Marvel stories. For the most part, any Marvel comic book who's title starts with the word "Ultimate" (e.g. Ultimate Spider-Man or Ultimate Fantastic Four) takes place here. Notable for being the source of most character and story ideas in the post-2000 Marvel movies.
• Earth-199999 - The Marvel Cinematic Universe. The universe where every movie produced by Marvel Studios/ABC/Disney takes place, starting with Iron Man through (as of today) Doctor Strange. It also includes all of the ABC and Netflix television shows based on Marvel characters.

Of particular interest here is that the next Spider-Man movie will not get a new universe number, because it will be part of Earth-199999.

Stand-Alone Cinematic Universes

Other than the films produced by Marvel/ABC/Disney, all of the other Marvel-based films exist in their own isolated universes. Typically, all of the films in a given series will exist in the same universe, but each "reboot" gets a new one. Typically, any video games, novelizations, or comic book adaptations based on a movie will also exist in the same universe.

The most notable recent ones are:

• Earth-10005 - The X-Men Cinematic Universe, the universe where all of Fox's X-Men films take place, including the spin-offs like Logan and Deadpool.
• Earth-96283 - The Spider-Man Cinematic Universe, where the three Spider-Man films starring Tobey McGuire take place.
• Earth-120703 - The Amazing Spider-Man Cinematic Universe, where the two Spider-Man films starring Andrew Garfield take place.

There is also a universe for the Blade movie trilogy, one for the two previous Fantastic Four movies, one for the Daredevil and Elektra movies, etc. There are also a number of older movies, television programs, and unreleased/unaired stuff, all of which get their own universe.

Typically, when a movie series ends its run and/or gets rebooted, its universe is basically put in a state of suspended animation. It still exists, and everyone in it is considered "still around" for continuity purposes, but no further material is ever set in that universe. It is "defunct".

One-Shots and Specials

Marvel frequently releases one-shot or special event comics, that each get their own universe. Statistically, this is probably where the largest number of numbered universes come from.

For example, there's an entire series of Marvel comics called What If?, which explore possible alternate histories like, "What if Spider-Man was a member of the Fantastic Five? (Earth-772), or "What if Daredevil worked for S.H.I.E.L.D.?" (Earth-8181).

Another big contributor in this vein are the Millennial Visions series, where each story is essentially its own universe, of which I think there's almost 100.

Alternate and Aborted Timelines

Sometimes, characters from Earth-616 (or some other universe) will travel back in time and change things, creating a different world history than the original. Other times, a character might travel forward in time and see a horrible future. In both cases, by the end of the story, the heroes have somehow found a way to save everyone, fix the past, and change the future.

Many of those alternative histories have their own universe numbers, especially if they span more than one issue of a series. For example, Earth-311 is an alternate timeline where Captain America (from a completely different Earth-460) was sent to Earth-616 in the year 1602 and changed history. Thus, Earth-311 split off from Earth-616 at that point.

Visited Alternate Universes

The last group of universes are those that are merely visited and/or mentioned by characters that appear in one of the other mainstream universes. Lots of characters in Marvel (people like Doctor Strange, and the cosmic-level characters) are capable of universe-hopping, and frequently you will see characters from one universe brought (willingly or otherwise) into Earth-616. Other times, characters from Earth-616 find themselves temporarily transported into alternative universes themselves.

then it would be around 200000+ universe, this means Beyonder is 126 Quintillion times more powerful than the whole omniverse of marvel.

Beyonder blinks

well he kind of is i still consider him a character he also destroyed the entire marvel omniverse whith ease in terms of him vs abstracts he was just toying whith them if he wanted he could have just erased them or changed them into ducks

however he was just a vessel of TOAA so there is the option of removing him from the list

and the VS battles wiki still debates on khorne from wh40k vs pre-retcon beyonder

i dont think he did

he said that he was weakend by erasing death and he needed help reversing that but then suddenly he recreated death whith ease

@thegreatlordd: the only sense i can make out of it is his mental weakness which he expose himself to in purpose, other than that, he has a shitloead more than enough to kill the concept of death billions of times over

note: it's a joke though beyonder killed death for a ahem hooker ahem, true story, since h was curious why life means so much for mortals and the hooker said because it's short and beyonder was like: fuck it, time for some BEYONDISM shit, then death was killed, also how does death itself die, tf

Oblivion couldn't even beat Infinity while he was trying his hardest. What makes anyone think he can even affect Beyonder?

@motifian: no idea, this thread is point-less, no feats, or statements to support this thread rather the opposite though i suppose they are doing it for the sake of doing it

@phantomshepherd: @motifian:

Can I just add that not only did Oblivion stalemate Infinity to a standstill.

But the entire fight between Infinity and Oblivion TOOK PLACE IN OBLIVION'S OWN REALM.

That's right, Infinity gave Oblivion a run for his money when the latter had home field advantage where Oblivion's Nigh Omnipotence at its most powerful and could not get rid of Infinity.

That's like if Lucifer Morningstar defeats PR Beyonder in the Beyond Realm or if Azazel defeated Morpheus/Dream of the Endless while they were in the Dreaming (Morpheus's realm where his Omnipotence is strongest). We know these two scenarios are most unlikely.

If what more if Oblivion fights Beyonder in the Beyond realm, then what?

@sungsam: beyonder is not pleased = oblivion becomes a cake. simple as that, if death is one shotted so will be the other concepts

@juliusz2006: all True, heck Seems to me Beyonder is The One above all himself as An Avatar trying not to be bored, least it's a good theroy

its possible

i also have a theory that TOAA created the beyonder to teach the marvel omniverse a lesson by putting them against a force they cant defeat

I thought PR Beyonder battles were against the rules?

I have a theory similar to Destiny man.

Beyonder was originally an Avatar manifestation of The One Above All representing the archetypal desire to experience, feel, understand and a manifestation of TOAA's humanity (Beyonder is very human like in curiosity and personality) and very likely an emotional impulsive aspect of TOAA who wished to observe his creations in a different aspect and perspective, but this slowly deviated Beyonder from being an Avatar of TOAA, into becoming a separate being with a different will completely, and became rogue due to his insatisfaction with Marvel's Omniverse, threatening his original self's creation due to being also a manifestation TOAA's disappointment.

As a result, not wishing for his Avatar to destroy and threaten the Omniverse further after the events of Secret Wars, TOAA cut Beyonder off from being an Avatar linked to his Omnipotent power, since TOAA is Beyonder's source of Omnipotent power as an Avatar until he rebelled and threatened Marvel's Omniverse which TOAA didn't like, resulting in Beyonder becoming so much weaker after Secret Wars and getting retconned and depowered due to his rebelliousness and literally cut off from his original self's Omnipotent power. Forcing Beyonder to identify as a Cosmic Cube, a Mutant or whatever for his own protection after he was retconned.

So yeah, my theory is that Beyonder was an Avatar of TOAA, but not anymore due to being a little too extreme threatening his own Creation and that is why he is so much weaker now.

yeah he was probably a type of experiment figure for TOAA

@juliusz2006: Very plausible Theroy. The recton being cut off makes sense

This thread is useless,and it must be locked, instantly! If it were Post Recton Beyonder, this might be fair.

Until then, Oblivion faces Oblivion.

@destinyman75: thanks

Beyonder is infinite dimensional

And Oblivion is beyond the concept of dimensions(he lies beyond the concept of existence while beyonder doesn't he exists and is infinite dimensional).

Oblivion wins

Lol, VSBattles Wiki arguments again?

Beyonder is 1A now and places Beyonder above Oblivion. Look it up. Lol!

What is up with this "infinite dimensional" BS theory, so sick of it. Beyonder literally blinks. Not even debatable.

Beyonder.

The beyonder was stated to be infinite dimensional but has left the marvel multiverse in a realm beyond dimensions entirely. Issue is Oblivion IS a realm beyond dimensions entirely as he embodies non-existence. Also the beyonder has had to use a good portion of his power to kill death but an infinitesimal version of Oblivion (chaos king) was equal to if not greater than eternity and not just an M-body of him.

Beyonder literally depowered himself from Infinite Dimensional to 3 Dimensional at the time. He did not use a good portion of his power to kill death, he gave Death HIS powers away and lost it and still got it back, and was still more powerful than all the other abstracts even though he was weakened. If he wanted Death killed easily, he could have one shotted everyone, but he didn't, merely because of PIS.

Beyonder was stated to be Infinite Dimensional, but his realm was also called a non physical place with no time and no space and no dimensions and the Marvel Multiverse's reality was called non existing imagination to him which means he transcended reality at a conceptual level as well. He's paradoxically both those things and neither, the BeyondRealm is a White Void of non corporeality that can also be dimensioned or not and both, it was never a Multiverse, but it doesn't matter because Beyonder has better feats than Oblivion even after Beyonder was retconned. Oblivion's best feats was stalemating Infinity and proving he was on the level of the 3 other abstracts.

Chaos King's powers were based off Pantheons and Gods, and nothing to do with Oblivion, even if he was just an aspect of Oblivion, so we cannot use CK as a measuring stick for Oblivion's power because CK was at base, sky father level IIRC.

Meanwhile, even Post Retcon Beyonder was a threat to all Multiverses and literally recreated the entire Marvel Creation in a billionth of a second with Peter Parker using his power.

@sungsam: how wouldn't Oblivion scale off ck if ck is just Oblivion? Also ck is stated by eternity to be his equal if not greater which is consistent since ck destroyed 98% of the marvel multiverse and eternity is the embodiment of the marvel multiverse.

CK is just an infinitesimal part of Oblivion, who stole power of Gods and Pantheons by slowly killing them all, you know, said Gods are part of Marvel's Creation/Multiverse which is part of Eternity's own being?

Chaos King's feat of destroying Marvel's Multiverse is his own feat, Oblivion has ZERO right to scale off a tiny part of himself that merely got the feats he got because of someone else's power. An impressive feat, but we can't use that to scale off Oblivion.

@sungsam: im not understanding your logic here

Don't blame you. Multiversal characters are difficult to understand for most but my position still stands...

Beyonder.