Pre Retcon Beyonder + Pre Retcon Molecule man vs Living tribunal vs thought Robot + World Forger

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LoomingShadows

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Post your answer like:

1.

2:

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LoomingShadows

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bump

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Yasindermann

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Thought Robot stomps.

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MichaelJulius

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#4  Edited By MichaelJulius

James Tynnion confirming that the new JLA Canon/Synder Cosmology is another Hypertime Lane that is an offset of Morrison Cosmology. This means Nil Monitors contain canon of DC and Vertigo, all of them.

Particle Physics Manipulation cannot harm those who override fictional canon.

Loading Video...

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LoomingShadows

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@yasindermann: did you even read the op.

James Tynnion confirming that the new JLA Canon/Synder Cosmology is another Hypertime Lane that is an offset of Morrison Cosmology. This means Nil Monitors contain canon of DC and Vertigo, all of them.

This is not debatable anymore. We have author confirmation now. What the hell is a reality warper going to do against someone who literally overrides fictional canons?

Loading Video...

Author confirmation is not every thing. Stan Lee once said Galactus was the most powerful marvel character. and Deadpool overrides fictional canons. And he is outmatched by half of the MU. Also you do know that all this infinitely dimensional, one with the omniverse, impossible for life forms to comprehend, overrides fictional cannons. it is all just hype writers use to show how powerful there new character is.

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Yasindermann

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#6  Edited By Yasindermann

@loomingshadows: Whataboutism. You try to debunk one's statement validity with other statements, which makes you argument null and void, since they do not reffer to the same thing.

Where does infinite dimensions in fiction override other fictional cannons? You are literally making that up.

Literally everything we see in multiversal fiction is impossible for us to comprohend (They only exist in concept), but it is still independent of the notion of surperior feats, etc. Some multiversal characters are bound by certain physical systems, and some exist beyond physics, etc. Some are infinite-dimensional, some exist beyond infinite dimensions. Do you understand it now? Even on such a scale where we cannot comprohend such characters (We can comprohend them as concepts though), we can still measure them by feats and surperiority. That what you're doing is a rat tactic of ''LOL! EVERY MULTIVERSAL CHARACTER ARE SAEM!'' All multiversal cosmology's exist in concept, therefore it's valid. You cannot draw an infinite on a piece of paper. This counts for marvel, dc, etc. Everything. But they exist in concept and the context behind ''Infinite dimensions'' and ''infinite power'' blah blah blah is easy to understand and enough context to quantify as a feat.

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Soratoumiga

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#7  Edited By Soratoumiga

Beyonder and Molecule Man >>>>>> Thought Robot and World Forger >> Living Tribunal

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TheAnimal666

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Beyonder and Molecule Man >>>>>> Thought Robot and World Forger >> Living Tribunal

This. Beyonder or Molecule Man can solostomp.

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MatvelBo77

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Toss up

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fyron

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#10  Edited By fyron

Depends which version of Thought Robot are we using. Are we using the official Grant Morrison's Thought Robot ? Then Thought Robot stomps no diff. Are we using the biased version of Comicvine where things about him are made up and official facts are not accepted ? Difficult to say, may be he can't even beat normal Superman in that version.

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fyron

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This. Beyonder or Molecule Man can solostomp.

I don't really think the guy's statements , who first asked for proof about TR lolstomping , and then literally ignoring the link posted and saying that "someone concedes" (lol) , hold any credible value here. If you really serious , I dare you to make a debunk thread about this thread right now :

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/final-crisis-explained-2045835/

^^ This is the same thread which you ignored in the last post. I can even post screenshots of that. Till you say anything about this , your statements are of no value.

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etriel

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#12  Edited By etriel

I like how the Monitor Wankers have to come up with "Morrison Thought Robot" to narrowly avoid calling it, the Pre-Retcon Thought Robot. Just as there is a Pre-Retcon Mandrakk. As it should be.

No meta-narrative being should be bound by the concept of art style change, and not be aware of it, get retconned by his own writers the moment Morrison's cosmology was stolen from him.

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fyron

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#13  Edited By fyron

@etriel:

If you're referring to me , then actually I didn't mean that. I meant the version which certain CV users tend to make up , the version in which he gets hurt by the heat of "tem billion suns" and "killed by GL corps". That was the biased version.

That being said , I haven't read Synder's Unexpected story in which he supposedly makes an entrance and is weak ( which is what I've heard from other users , not sure ) , but I don't really know if he's retconned or not. And obviously they can be retconned , it's just that the authors decided to put them on a setting where they seem unretconnable w.r.t. story. If they want to retcon Mandrakk , they would have to retcon the Monitor Mind itself , the top dog of DC. Hence they're "unretconnable". Because it would turn the entire setting topsy turvy. Which would again not make any sense because they had established the Monitor Mind to be the sentinent comic book page , so all that would just lose it's meaning the the entire lore of Final Crisis will be meaningless. They had established Mandrakk to be meta , so again it wouldn't make sense. They would've to make COIE , Vertigo and Final Crisis non canon for their Retcon to make sense. But if some psycho author decides to make Final Crisis as well COIE and everything in Vertigo non canon , then sure , anything can happen.

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etriel

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#14  Edited By etriel

The World Forger is a Multiversal being, but one who appears to be constrained by corporeality. All his/its attacks are all movement and energy based, rather than true conceptual metaphorical power. We still have no idea how powerful Perpetua and her sons are during the time in the Void. their reality warping diversity appears constrained and their hax is based around Void manipulation only and nothing else so far.

Their best feat is creating Matter, Anti-Matter and Dark Matter in High-Hyperversal degrees. That can then form a hierarchy of Stories, but the latter is merely a side-effect of the nature of DC's cosmology rather than it being a feat for the Brothers Three and this is a feat that can be attributed to more conceptual beings of stories like the Monitors, Dream or etc.

The degrees of Time and Change they transcend is unknown, but they should transcend the First Level of Time, but not necessarily the levels of time that can retcon a total linear eternity of a regular Timeline.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The Living Tribunal is a hard entity to gauge because it hardly has any feats but bullnonsense scaling that literally goes against every time it has been killed. It has been shown to exist inside Space-Time, functions in it, and exists in all Space-Time's functions as the Conceptual Embodiment of Multiversal Law.

The Living Tribunal's power is Law Manipulation, but the Living Tribunal's hax can only function against other organs of Space-Time based Multiverses. It has no function against beings like the Endless, who although do partially embody physics, can in fact function completely independent of it and can even lose time.

It MIGHT work against the Forger, but DC has no embodiment of Law and Law in DC is self-reforming rather than actively enforced by some self-aware cosmic entity. The closest entity in DC to embodying the Concept of Law is the Council that controls the Endless, but they are mostly off-screen and have not done anything.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The Beyonder and Molecule Man are odd fellows because their feats and statements are all over the place.

The Beyonder was ALMOST killed by a Universe level attack. Was mind-haxxed/poisoned by Multiversal knowledge, despite being more than thousands of degrees more powerful than such things.

The Beyonder claimed and fancied itself to be a Hierarchaly entity, but had no hierarchy shown in the Beyond Realm. He claimed he didn't know what time was, but still described himself as an entity of measurement and such things require Time.

His best feat was Haxxing Death outside of Infinity Multiversal existence, but this took most of his power unusable and rended. I believe Beyonder erasing that is a far better feat than his feat of shaking a Multiverse.

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Yasindermann

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#15  Edited By Yasindermann

@etriel: Why do you use VS battle wiki terms? Seriously, you should stop doing that, because of the reasons ZGT already mentioned. There are some other interpretations of ''hyperversal'', but the definition of VS battle wiki is the most popular here.

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etriel

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#16  Edited By etriel
@fyron said:

@etriel:

That being said , I haven't read Synder's Unexpected story in which he supposedly makes an entrance and is weak ( which is what I've heard from other users , not sure ) , but I don't really know if he's retconned or not.

Mandrakk in Unexpected was already weakened, his essence was almost damaged from taking the fall into the Void. Hence, any weakness he had there, is not a sign of a retcon, it is a series of events that lead to an aftermath of a causation from his sustained injuries in his fight against another entity who had the same hax as he did.

LMFAO, In fact Mandrakk is proven to be not aware that he is drawn in a different art style from Final Crisis. This proves that Monitors are weak to animation manipulation and anyone can deny a narrative, like an animator/artist saying STFU to a script writer and adding in drawing and animation errors as he likes.

And obviously they can be retconned , it's just that the authors decided to put them on a setting where they seem unretconnable w.r.t. story. If they want to retcon Mandrakk , they would have to retcon the Monitor Mind itself , the top dog of DC. Hence they're "unretconnable".

There is no such thing as a Top Dog of DC. You need to get most writers to actually give a damn about that answer, and say yes. We might have hints and analysis, but nobody has a true honest answer.

Just a week ago, the Oversphere Entities were implied to be beyond the Overvoid. (I'll get the scan) but you get the point.

Because it would turn the entire setting topsy turvy. Which would again not make any sense because they had established the Monitor Mind to be the sentinent comic book page ,

The Monitor Mind Overvoid is a sentient comic book page, but how much knowledge it wields is unknown. It is clearly inferior to the True Writer of DC that Grant Morrison established. Considering it does not even know how the DC Multiverse formed inside of itself.

It cannot be top-dog if it is not omniscient.

so all that would just lose it's meaning the the entire lore of Final Crisis will be meaningless. They had established Mandrakk to be meta , so again it wouldn't make sense.

The problem with DC is that it is meta one day, then not meta the other.

It is an outlier cosmology issue and inconsistency issue with DC being a multi-authorial work of different writers.

They would've to make COIE , Vertigo and Final Crisis non canon for their Retcon to make sense. But if some psycho author decides to make Final Crisis as well COIE and everything in Vertigo non canon , then sure , anything can happen.

Vertigo is nebulously stretchy to itself because its Cosmology bounces back to DC and then leaves, then bounces back to DC, and then leaves. You have to be careful when analyzing DC because even the writers are not aware of what is going on with the work.

COIE is written during a time when DC's cosmology was more primitive.

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cosmic_reign

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Team 1

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Yasindermann

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#19  Edited By Yasindermann
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TheAnimal666

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@fyron said:
@theanimal666 said:

This. Beyonder or Molecule Man can solostomp.

I don't really think the guy's statements , who first asked for proof about TR lolstomping , and then literally ignoring the link posted and saying that "someone concedes" (lol) , hold any credible value here. If you really serious , I dare you to make a debunk thread about this thread right now :

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/final-crisis-explained-2045835/

^^ This is the same thread which you ignored in the last post. I can even post screenshots of that. Till you say anything about this , your statements are of no value.

you're*

Ok.
0 feats of TR or Mandrakk resisting reality warping
I keep the same answer

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etriel

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#21  Edited By etriel
@theanimal666 said:
@fyron said:

I don't really think the guy's statements , who first asked for proof about TR lolstomping , and then literally ignoring the link posted and saying that "someone concedes" (lol) , hold any credible value here. If you really serious , I dare you to make a debunk thread about this thread right now :

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/final-crisis-explained-2045835/

^^ This is the same thread which you ignored in the last post. I can even post screenshots of that. Till you say anything about this , your statements are of no value.

you're*

Ok.

0 feats of TR or Mandrakk resisting reality warping

I keep the same answer

TR and Mandrakk have no space and have no time. That is already a feat/proof that they are not affected by reality warping.

You cannot reality warp something, that has no reality to warp.

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cosmic_reign

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TheAnimal666

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@etriel said:
@theanimal666 said:
@fyron said:

I don't really think the guy's statements , who first asked for proof about TR lolstomping , and then literally ignoring the link posted and saying that "someone concedes" (lol) , hold any credible value here. If you really serious , I dare you to make a debunk thread about this thread right now :

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/final-crisis-explained-2045835/

^^ This is the same thread which you ignored in the last post. I can even post screenshots of that. Till you say anything about this , your statements are of no value.

you're*

Ok.

0 feats of TR or Mandrakk resisting reality warping

I keep the same answer

TR and Mandrakk have no space and have no time. That is already a feat/proof that they are not affected by reality warping.

You cannot reality warp something, that has no reality to warp.


Prove it.
Post them shrugging off reality warping.

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etriel

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#24  Edited By etriel

@theanimal666 said:

Prove it.

Post them shrugging off reality warping.

Monitors have resisted reality many times.

1. Able to move in a place where Infinitely Growing Reality does not exist. Meaning they surpass Reality and can go to places where reality is not a thing.

2. Resisting the powers of Reality Warpers when they were depowered (The Unexpected). Mandrakk's fight against Creation/Destruction powers of Universes.

3. The 52 Universes of DC warp infinite new realities instantly and infinitely, and yet they cannot reach the Monitors in size. So they have resisted the power of reality's size.

4. Limbo contains things that were erased/reality-warped, and the Monitors can control it.

5. Mandrakk was idea-erased by the Overvoid, but returned in the Dark Multiverse.

They have shrugged reality warping many times, and are more powerful than reality's warping VIA scaling.

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CJg4z

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Beyonder solos

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fyron

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@etriel said:
@theanimal666 said:
@fyron said:

I don't really think the guy's statements , who first asked for proof about TR lolstomping , and then literally ignoring the link posted and saying that "someone concedes" (lol) , hold any credible value here. If you really serious , I dare you to make a debunk thread about this thread right now :

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/final-crisis-explained-2045835/

^^ This is the same thread which you ignored in the last post. I can even post screenshots of that. Till you say anything about this , your statements are of no value.

you're*

Ok.

0 feats of TR or Mandrakk resisting reality warping

I keep the same answer

TR and Mandrakk have no space and have no time. That is already a feat/proof that they are not affected by reality warping.

You cannot reality warp something, that has no reality to warp.

Prove it.

Post them shrugging off reality warping.

So lame. If reality itself does not exist beyond limbo , what is there to "shrug off" ?

No Caption Provided

Mxy stating he can't access the sixth dimension/Monitor Sphere :

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

^^ Description of limbo.

No Caption Provided

^^ Mandrakk holding bleedspace which contains all the narratives of DC , including all of existence.

No Caption Provided

^^ Being confirmed that Nil Monitors operate on a narrative scale.

All this was mentioned in the thread linked , but since you're repeatedly ignoring that , I'm forced to post these here. Everyone reading this , notice how he ignored the thread I linked.

There's no reality existing beyond Limbo for them to shrug off in the first place. This is taken from official sources like the scans. And still , like a lame argument that you're making , you want them to somehow come down to the level of the fiction and see them resisting reality. Why though ? Why , when they're a lot above such a concept ?

I might as well make the claim TOAA can't shrug off an attack from Spiderman , since he doesn't have feats of resisiting Spider-Man's attack. This is the kind of ridiulous argument you're making.

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TheAnimal666

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@fyron: @etriel:

I"m asking for evidence.
Scans of Mandrakk / TR shrugging off reality warping or it didn't happen.
Your opinions and personal interpretations are meaningless to me.

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LoomingShadows

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#28  Edited By LoomingShadows

@yasindermann: so these infinite dimension or borders or whatever all exist within a piece of paper? No. Basically your argument was “I USED INTIMIDATING BIG BOY WORDS SO I MAKE MORE SENSE THAN HIM!” Let me try to make more sense of my initial post. Overriding fictional boundaries, or breaking the fourth wall or even the concept of omniverses can not exist within a piece of paper. The paper is motionless, you can on do anything unless your artist makes you. breaking the fourth wall or overriding fictional boundaries is impossible because there are no fictional boundaries. In fact, dimensional power scaling does not exist either. One drawing can not be more powerful that another. So how are you going to go about trying to make me look stupid this time?

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fyron

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@fyron: @etriel:

I"m asking for evidence.

Scans of Mandrakk / TR shrugging off reality warping or it didn't happen.

Your opinions and personal interpretations are meaningless to me.

Show us the scans of TOAA resisting reality warping. I mean , the actual scans of him shrugging of reality warping.

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Yasindermann

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#30  Edited By Yasindermann

@loomingshadows: I am gonna make you look stupid by saying that omniverses, multiverses, megaverses (Whatever you call it) cannot be written on a piece of paper, but still be quantified as a concept in several fictional verses and therefore, still can be quantified as a feat, since they are easy to understand as such. I already explained this to you. Even if you cannot write it on a piece of paper, it's still a valid concept and therefore, quantifiable if a fictional verse uses it. So shut up already. There are several illogical things in fiction, because it's fiction, where logic does not exist. Everything that exists within fiction are all just illogical things that only exist as concepts. So ''logic'' like you argue now doesn't hold volume here.

''One drawing cannot be stronger than another'' Drawings are not the point of VS battles. The use of concepts of infinity, finity, etc. are what decides the winner. Since concepts like infinity, finity, etc. are the things where we measure the power sets of a character. This is the point of VS battles. Measure the power sets of the character. This ain't a drawing contest. You don't even understand how VS battles work.

Author authority doesn't matter in a vs battle. We measure by what the character did in the comic, a.k.a feats. Authors have no control over an VS battle.

The use of concepts is the thing that matters here. Not drawings.

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etriel

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#31  Edited By etriel

@fyron said:
@theanimal666 said:

@fyron: @etriel:

I"m asking for evidence.

Scans of Mandrakk / TR shrugging off reality warping or it didn't happen.

Your opinions and personal interpretations are meaningless to me.

Show us the scans of TOAA resisting reality warping. I mean , the actual scans of him shrugging of reality warping.

These Marvel debaters have been saying that TOAA is Omnipotent for years, even though he is featless.

But if I say that TR Superman is beyond physics and space, time, he needs feats?

What load of double standard, absurd nonsense is that?

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LoomingShadows

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@yasindermann: Lost your cool I see. That’s nice. I’m going to make this as simple as possible ok? Imagine I got out my pencil and drew a smiley face. Then I drew a little speech bubble that said “the real world exists”. Does that mean, that my smiley face, can override fictional boundaries and is more powerful than all the other smiley faces? The answer is yes, it could be, IN FICTION, but in reality it’s just a drawing. Just like Thought Robot is just a drawing, that in fiction might be more powerful than all other drawings, but a little drawing cannot have any control over the real world. Now do you understand?

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Yasindermann

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@loomingshadows: We measure the character by what they did in their fiction, a.k.a feats. Real life doesn't even matter here, if we talk about fictional characters. You don't know what you're arguing anymore.

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LoomingShadows

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#34  Edited By LoomingShadows

@yasindermann: Yes that’s literally what I said. All feats ARE IN FICTION. but in REALITY it is a drawing. Let me remind you what i’m arguing about. One character is stronger than another, yes. But you’re the one who brought up fictional boundaries, and i’m saying that a fictional drawing breaking the “the wall” into reality is bull shit, because it may be a character in fiction but in relatity it is a drawing.

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fyron

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@loomingshadows:

I will tell you what he's talking about. He's saying they can access the analogue of our world in fiction , which basically views everything as fiction in comics. That's called Earth 33 / the meta world , where the comic counterpart of author lives. They cannot literally come into our real world , but they can go into the analogue of our world in the comic books , which is as good as "real" to the comics.

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etriel

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#36  Edited By etriel

@yasindermann: @loomingshadows: @fyron:

No, all three of you are completely misunderstanding each other. I can explain to you how, but I'm so damn lazy to explain it. You are not using the same words to mean the same thing.

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Yasindermann

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HappyLife1996

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Thought Robot is so powerful to the point I once thought he is a challenge to Lucifer. But no, he is not.

So Im going with him

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TheAnimal666

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@etriel said:
@fyron said:
@theanimal666 said:

@fyron: @etriel:

I"m asking for evidence.

Scans of Mandrakk / TR shrugging off reality warping or it didn't happen.

Your opinions and personal interpretations are meaningless to me.

Show us the scans of TOAA resisting reality warping. I mean , the actual scans of him shrugging of reality warping.

These Marvel debaters have been saying that TOAA is Omnipotent for years, even though he is featless.

But if I say that TR Superman is beyond physics and space, time, he needs feats?

What load of double standard, absurd nonsense is that?

The statements about his power-set and power-level are crystal clear.

Your claims aren't backed-up. You are using personal interpretation.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

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fyron

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@etriel said:
@fyron said:
@theanimal666 said:

@fyron: @etriel:

I"m asking for evidence.

Scans of Mandrakk / TR shrugging off reality warping or it didn't happen.

Your opinions and personal interpretations are meaningless to me.

Show us the scans of TOAA resisting reality warping. I mean , the actual scans of him shrugging of reality warping.

These Marvel debaters have been saying that TOAA is Omnipotent for years, even though he is featless.

But if I say that TR Superman is beyond physics and space, time, he needs feats?

What load of double standard, absurd nonsense is that?

The statements about his power-set and power-level are crystal clear.

Your claims aren't backed-up. You are using personal interpretation.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

That's just your interpretation. Show me the actual scans of him shrugging off reality warping. If he did not show it , he can't do it.

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Soratoumiga

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#43  Edited By Soratoumiga

Imagine thinking an author worships a fictional character they created

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MichaelJulius

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#44  Edited By MichaelJulius

No problem. The Unexpected, Issue 2. Here is the weakened form of Mandrakk tanking total Creationsim level impact. Infinite Reality Warping considered nothing at all.

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@theanimal666 said:

@fyron: @etriel:

I"m asking for evidence.

Scans of Mandrakk / TR shrugging off reality warping or it didn't happen.

Your opinions and personal interpretations are meaningless to me.

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TheAnimal666

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#45  Edited By TheAnimal666

@fyron said:

That's just your interpretation. Show me the actual scans of him shrugging off reality warping. If he did not show it , he can't do it.

He created all realities in Marvel and can erase or save realities at his wishes. That's enough of an evidence.

On the other hand there is currently 0 feats for TR and Mandrakk using this ability so 0 evidence they can resist it.

There Thanos made a deal with the TAAO so he create and save one reality (which he did). That's reality warping (at scan 3).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

I have evidence of my claims, contrary to you.

No problem. The Unexpected, Issue 2. Here is the weakened form of Mandrakk tanking total Creationsim level impact. Infinite Reality Warping considered nothing at all.

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In the scan you posted, he was simply using the materials on the ground to bend Mandrakk.

Mandrakk resisted by using his strength to break the material used.

Your claims have no credibility at all, you are making up stuff on the fly.

The Fires of Creations aren't reality warping. He can only bend materials and souls and there a lot of limits to what he can do.
Neon the Unknown cannot kill anyone with it.


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Neon changed Mandrakk needs to feed from Positive Matter to Dark Matter...
That's Mister Negative-level stuff...

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I apologize for the delay of my answer, I got cramps holding my abs. I was "nervous". ^^

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ByondEon

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Beyonder and MM

LT

Superman >=World Forger

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MichaelJulius

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#47  Edited By MichaelJulius

@theanimal666: As soon as Quench arrived, he ate some Element X. Neon already had some.

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Element X is what The Forger uses to make Multiverses. It makes Physics. Your argument is 100% debunked.

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Infinite possibility, Infinite Physics control.

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"Neon used whats on the ground and Mandrakk used physical strength"

Ok then, considering that Mandrakk remade Nil in that battle, that must mean he houses Creation and Destruction and can remake, undo and forge all of Creation quite easily then. You debunked yourself there, mate. This gets way worse on your view when you say Mandrakk did this with raw physical strength. Ouch.

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cupofreality

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Beyonder is the strongest because even when he poured a vast majority of his power in a cup he was still more powerful than all the concepts combined.

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TheAnimal666

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@michaeljulius:

You debunked nothing, again.
You are using your scans out-of-context and you make-up stuff on the fly.

The metal didn't amp Neon at all, was threatening him to explode the whole time and he was incapable to use it or use his powers on it the whole story.

At the end, it exploded after rupturing the reality and Neon couldn't do anything about it and moreover he got wounded in the process.

The whole stuff about the metal is that it conducted them outside of the multiverse on Thought Robot's grave.

You aren't even good at lying.

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MichaelJulius

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#50  Edited By MichaelJulius

@theanimal666: Asks for physics resistance feats and received them, responds by saying the reality warping impossible energy was already on the ground and the character brute strength no selling it doesn't count.

Counter argument of the decade goes to TheAnnimal666.