Fight in neutral universe where both are at full power,no morals.,vs,
Pre crisis Darkseid Vs Classic Dr Strange
PC Darkseid should win though Classic Dr Strange could win with enough prep over an unsuspecting Darkseid.
@Spartan101:
No i think he broke out of a binding spell the LT thought was good enough to hold Strange which impressed him.
@Spartan101 said:
@jeanroygrant: didnt classic strange go head to head with the LT?
Yes but he didn't come close to winning
he had a 00000.0 chance.
Classic Strange wins. Good luck to DarkSied fighting many of Strange's foes.
- Galactus
- InBetweener
- Nightmare
- Mephisto
- D'Spayre
- Trinity of Ashes
- Dormammu
- Satannish
- Shuma-Gorath
- Death
- Nebulos
- Living Tribunal
- Cyttorak
- Dr. Doom
Precrisis Darkseid defeated and absorbed the power from PC Mordru (in the Great Darkness Saga). PC Darkseid for the win.
@krleavenger: Really? I've heard so many people say Classic Strange is leagues ahead of current Strange and can fight Abstracts and beat skyfathers like Odin.
Strange stomps. Pre Crisis Darkseid did very little of note outside the Great Darkness Saga. Certainly not enough to beat Strange.
@krleavenger: Really? I've heard so many people say Classic Strange is leagues ahead of current Strange and can fight Abstracts and beat skyfathers like Odin.
He has been tossed around by writers who wanted to tone him down, didn't get the character and ignored his past comics including what he can do and even his personality, and even been in the hands of a writer who opening admitted to not liking the character (Bendis). Plus he went a long time without a series (before his current one his last ongoing series ended in 96) which is where he generally shined. So he has had some rough times but canonically his power hasn't changed and he is the same person, so everything in his past applies to the present. There have been some depowerings via story but this is something that has happened even in his "classic" days.
Strange looks better on paper. Darkseid would defeat him in h2h and such, but not sure if he could kill strange.
@krleavenger: I know they’re the same version, but Classic Strange seems to be on a completely different level than Modern Strange. Classic Strange seems to be more like a Skyfather level character where as Modern Strange seems more like Team buster tier.
@the_badman Whoever says that doesn't understand the reason behind why this whole discussion exists. Not even so called classic Strange came close to Abstract level. He is just capable of fighting them because he has a ton of spells and abilities, but there are a lot of instances when he was overpowered by Abstracts and even Skyfathers and Hell-Lords.
Literally the only reason why modern Strange seems less impressive is because aside from one or two short lived 3-5 issue mini series, he didn't have his own book/title until recently, having most of his set of appearances limited to guest starring, which prevented the writers from focusing on plot of Strange himself and therefor preventing him from doing much or fighting his own opponents.
I think the whole reason as to why this whole myth about modern Strange being somehow weaker than classic despite the fact that there are zero statements/hints/suggestions/bios/evidence to back it up is because he either didn't do anything or because during most of his appearances during 2000s, he lost the title of Sorcerer Supreme, which as you could guess, makes him way weaker.
For example, in Civil War he flat out said he is not allowed to do anything, and prior to that arc, he was dealing with something that simply was and should be beyond his capabilities (House of M event). In World War Hulk he was holding back throughout the entire arc and got taken out by plot, and during Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, Siege, Heroic Age and so on, again, he wasn't Sorcerer Supreme.
When he got the title back, he didn't have the opportunity to do anything, and when Secret Wars finished, Strange was weakened again.
@jrupert1 Wait, Bendis actually admitted he doesn't like Strange? Wow, that makes his low showings way easier to excuse. Kinda weird too because he is the same writer who had Strange fight the entire Avengers team (including Worthy Thor) while being controlled by Daniel Drumm, being morals off and pretty much stalemating them while depowered (that was written by Bendis, right???).
Do you have some evidence to prove he doesn't like Strange that much tho?
@kanyecosby Read my reply to The_Badman. The reason why Strange feels stronger during classic days isn't because he got weaker or because he just turned into a jobber who doesn't get as much respect (like Kyle Rayner did ever since Marz left and Geoff Johns took over and brought Hal back). It's because Strange did not have his own series for like 2+ decades give or take, or because there were just a lot of instances in modern comics where he is/was either depowered or weakened. That's why he seems stronger Pre-Modern Age.
Hell, ironically enough, recently when he got his own series again but wasn't weakened, he preformed several feats that he either strait up failed to preform during his "classic" period or would just never replicate in early years of his carrier simply due to his consistent showing and implied power. Which kinda proves my point that the only reason why people think modern Strange is weaker is because he didn't have his own title and therefor couldn't do much. By the time he got one, he became a beast again.
@krleavenger: So because Strange is just as powerful as he was before, does that mean that Strange even in the Classic era would still be only about Teambuster tier, or would that mean that Strange in the Modern era is Skyfather level?
@krleavenger: Yeah sort of, it was around the time leading up to him taking on the character, he didn't put it so bluntly. But he in general had a problem with magic. I'll see if I can find it but it's been so long the odds are slim. I know a former vine member had it saved, but he has been gone for some time.
But yes, Bendis did actually write that comic at the end. But he's also the person wrote Dr Strange being unable to stop an airplane from falling, nor could he fly people out of it because apparently his cloak doesn't work that way.
@kanyecosby You are looking at this incorrectly. None of the two levels change because there are no different levels in the first place.
@jrupert1 That's pretty disrespectful towards the character. And sure, no problem. Even if you don't find it, I appreciate the effort.
@krleavenger: What I was asking was if Strange was always on the level of a team buster level character like Thanos even in the Classic era or if he was was always more on the level of a Skyfather like Odin.
Isn't PC Darkseid stronger than Silver Age Supes?
Darkseid didn't even exist in the Silver Age and has never fought Superman during the pre crisis era.
@brucerogers: I'm aware of this, was meaning it based off feats.
@brucerogers: I'm aware of this, was meaning it based off feats.
Based on feats, he isn't on Silver Age Superman's level either.
@kanyecosby: Sorry if the bolded parts seem annoying. I was just trying to emphasize what I wanted to say.
I'm gonna ignore Thanos/Odin thing completely because I view the entire tier system to be very flawed, and pretty difficult to argue over for a character like Strange. Regardless, I said you are looking at all of this in a wrong way. You are essentially asking me if classic Strange and modern Strange are equals, which showing is more valid. Is classic Strange weaker or is modern Strange stronger. NEITHER one of those is true because the whole concept of classic Strange and modern Strange is a fan fic. This entire topic shouldn't even be discussed over because them somehow being different is nonsensical and baseless assumption (I assume spread throughout youtube). It's like asking if Superman in issue X was a mid tier because in issue Y he was on that level based on his performance there only, but in issue X he was a high tier. There is no difference between them. Just because someone doesn't do something impressive doesn't mean his powers change or it affects consistency.
I mean, I understand if we were to compare Pre-Geoff Johns Kyle to Post-Geoff Johns Kyle, or Post-Crisis Superman to Rebirth Superman. They are the exact same character, but the latter time periods simply introduce them as weaker characters because they constantly fail to preform feats the former versions can replicate easily. That does not affect their previous showings, nor is it relevant to current showings where they are less impressive. Same applies for Strange. What does not apply for Strange however is this entire comparison between unlike Kyle and Clark, he wasn't nerfed during the modern age. You say how he was more Thanos level in modern age. But there is nothing to confirm that. Actually, modern Strange has no feats close to Thanos level. But unlike with Kyle and Clark, Strange wasn't nerfed and didn't fail at doing stuff he could do earlier. He simply did not have any noteworthy feats of raw power because he wasn't doing anything.
I could be wrong but I think your question is what level of them is more accurate and how consistency applies for the character. But the thing is, they both apply. The reason why people don't view Rebirth Clark and Post-Crisis Clark as the same character on the battle forum is because the latter is clearly weaker due to his showings. Modern Strange isn't weaker than classic Strange. He just wasn't doing anything until he got depowered and actually was nerfed, but that was because he lost Sorcerer Supreme status. Simply put, Classic Strange = Modern Strange. Neither showing contradicts the other. Different level of performances doesn't affect the previous one because of simple lack of showings, not lack of better showcase of power.
Isn't PC Darkseid stronger than Silver Age Supes?
Silver age was over when Darkseid came to existense. So there is no silver age darkseid, only pre crisis.
@jrupert1: To be fair, Strange's getting some new cool feats under Waid that are almost as good as when Steve Englehart himself handled the character back in the classic days. Like one-shotting an Elder God at the beginning of the volume and in the newest comic, defeating Jundo in that flashback(Who goes around dimensions killing their mystical protectors and supposedly turning planets into ashes, or at least, could do that to Earth).
@supermanforever: did you read my other post?
Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure Strange has better feats that don't resort to only scaling from other characters, at least based on what I know. He actually has two multi-universal showings which are even fricking official confirmed by the guidebook The Mysterious World of Doctor Strange.
@metatronx said:
Strange defeated multiversal beings like Shuma Gorath and Death herself, so yeah, it appears to me it's very obvious that Dr Strange stomps
Strange has never defeated Shuma under his own power aside from Marvel Knights Vol.4#27 though, where Shuma wasn't at full power, it happened off-panel and Stephen arguably had the advantage thanks to the Stonehenge being a mystical focal point. He never defeated Mistress Death using only his powers as well, but he did somewhat stalemate her during DSSS#45.
@metatronx said:
Strange defeated multiversal beings like Shuma Gorath and Death herself, so yeah, it appears to me it's very obvious that Dr Strange stomps
Strange has never defeated Shuma under his own power aside from Marvel Knights Vol.4#27 though, where Shuma wasn't at full power, it happened off-panel and Stephen arguably had the advantage thanks to the Stonehenge being a mystical focal point. He never defeated Mistress Death using only his powers as well, but he did somewhat stalemate her during DSSS#45.
When did Strange ever had his own powers, his powers are basically calling on powers from the different mystical beings and principalities using spells, without it he is only a martial arts monk with a normal physical body.
Although, i agree Strange was amped when he defeated Shuma Gorath, but when he fought Death he was not amped by any unusual external power, he only used his usual spells, calling on vishanti's power, and it was not a stalemate, he did knock Death out, so it counts as a win, of course he couldn't kill Death, because 616 Death is unkillable, unless you're the Beyonder.
So yeah, Strange did defeat Death, a beyond multiversal (megaversal) being, which definitely puts him above Darkseid.
@metatronx: When did Strange ever had his own powers, his powers are basically calling on powers from the different mystical beings and principalities using spells, without it he is only a martial arts monk with a normal physical body.
Like, ever? Magic in the Marvel-verse has always been divided into three main categories:
- Egocentric Magic:Derived from personal powers like the soul/mind.
- Ecocentric Magic:Derived from the environment.
- Exocentric Magic:Derived from extradimensional sources and beings.
Strange can call upon other beings for power, but can also use his own inherent mystical powers from within. His Bio from Marvel's Offical Handbook Vol.3#04 explicitly states that and also explains how magic works in general on top of all:
I mean, since Aaron took over, things have changed and even Waid seems to dispute this a bit, but Strange's now can create his own spells from zero without needing to resort to invoking someone's else power as demonstrated in Doctor Strange(2018)#5. Regardless, what I mean by his own powers is what Strange can normally conjure and is accessible to him in a random encounter. He used the Wings of Needless Sorrow against Shuma, an object that absorbs mystical energy and that Stephen doesn't even have anymore, not even talking about being amped by Arioch's own powers. There are other minor contexts and encounters, but I won't touch them since isn't necessary and can't really be applied as a feat too.
Although, i agree Strange was amped when he defeated Shuma Gorath, but when he fought Death he was not amped by any unusual external power, he only used his usual spells, calling on vishanti's power, and it was not a stalemate, he did knock Death out, so it counts as a win, of course he couldn't kill Death, because 616 Death is unkillable, unless you're the Beyonder.
He fought Death two times in a full-out battle, at least that I remember. The first time was in Doctor Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts#4 where couldn't do anything against her on his own and needed Eternity to win. The second was in DSSS#45 where Stephen indeed fought Strange to a stalemate since couldn't destroy her, only her physical form. You're right that is an intrinsic part of her being to be unkillable given her very nature, but that's not the only reason why I called a stalemate, it's because the battle was never concluded since she gave up because would take too much of her to kill Strange. I do admit that's a hell of a showing for Strange to hold his own for so long and having Death herself admit that was unsure if could actually defeat him, but we don't know if she wouldn't have won if the battle continued...As we don't know for how long Strange would've endured, the battle was unfinished/inconclusive in the end, so that's why I say a stalemate(Although I can see why people say Strange won when looking by other angles, like the fact she didn't get what wanted and Stephen did, but I still say it's far-fetched to call a clear win).
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