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#1 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser

Wally West
Wally West

VS:

@cosmicallyaware1:

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Genis-Vell, Extant, White Lantern Kyle Rayner

Rules:

  • DC characters are pre-new 52 unless otherwise stated.
  • 616 marvel characters.
  • Win by any means except BFR.
  • BFR is allowed.
  • No time travel.
  • Characters are morals off but are in character.
  • Voting ideally starts in 2 weeks. Extensions are allowed but are unwanted.
  • Characters only know each other from prior encounters.
  • No prep.
  • Teamwork Matters.
  • Standard gear for all.
  • Fights take place here:
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#2 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

mad god genis? interesting...

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#3 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice bro. Only one selection huh? Wally West? Interesting, have my work slightly cut out for me (in ways). Lol, we still need to work on that other thread (i've almost got my second post finished..Thanos vs. Surfer, it's a doozy).

Couple questions real quick:

No time travel

the OP states. Extant is a heavy Temporal character, and it is integral to his showings and powerset. Genis (especially in Mad God and the showing against Sentry) also employs this tactic in character.

Is it simply no Timetravel as in insta kill....."in the crib" killing tactic? lame BTW.

I ask this as would Time Manipulation be applicable in consideration with these characters? Wally is no stranger to this as well...............

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#4 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

mad god genis? interesting...

right?

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#5 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice bro. Only one selection huh? Wally West? Interesting, have my work slightly cut out for me (in ways). Lol, we still need to work on that other thread (i've almost got my second post finished..Thanos vs. Surfer, it's a doozy).

Couple questions real quick:

No time travel

the OP states. Extant is a heavy Temporal character, and it is integral to his showings and powerset. Genis (especially in Mad God and the showing against Sentry) also employs this tactic in character.

Is it simply no Timetravel as in insta kill....."in the crib" killing tactic? lame BTW.

I ask this as would Time Manipulation be applicable in consideration with these characters? Wally is no stranger to this as well...............

Sorry I haven't said much on the other thread. Yeah I've wanted to debate with Wally for some time but...you know.

Anyway, time manipulation is totally allowed. I mostly didn't want people going back and killing in the crib as you say, so no time travel.

Also, I read the thunderbolts fight and he didn't time travel then.

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#6 Posted by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio

tag for votes please.

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#7 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: gotcha. Just makin sure there. And what about Extant? His typical temporal distortions n such.......are you familiar with him? (Hint.....Zero Hour? JSA?....I just bein sarcastic, I'm sure you are fully aware of his capabilities)

Anyway I gotta go search for material of Wally gettin beat down......

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#8 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: gotcha. Just makin sure there. And what about Extant? His typical temporal distortions n such.......are you familiar with him? (Hint.....Zero Hour? JSA?....I just bein sarcastic, I'm sure you are fully aware of his capabilities)

Anyway I gotta go search for material of Wally gettin beat down......

I know what Extant can do. It's all allowed here. Honestly, you have one of the best teams for countering Wally.

I wouldn't search too much. He's morals off here.

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#9 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Honestly, you have one of the best teams for countering Wally

more I think about it....you're spot on with that one. Anyone else might be screwed......I got lucky on this matchup and always have wanted to take a stab at the "against Flash" argument....glad it's with these characters.

I wouldn't search too much. He's morals off here

lol, right....................

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#10 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1:

You can post first.

@highaccuser:

Honestly, you have one of the best teams for countering Wally

more I think about it....you're spot on with that one. Anyone else might be screwed......I got lucky on this matchup and always have wanted to take a stab at the "against Flash" argument....glad it's with these characters.

I wouldn't search too much. He's morals off here

lol, right....................

Yeah. Without going into too much depth Wally's standard instant win moves will be harder here.

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#11 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

You can post first

figures lol..............ok. Shall we then?

Introductions!!!

Genis-Vell Captain Mar-vell!!!!

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Cloned from the DNA of the Kree warrior Mar-Vell, a.k.a Captain Marvel, Genis-Vell was implanted with false memories making him believe he was instead Starfox's son and artificially aged to protect him from Mar-Vell's enemies. Unable to handle the mantle, power and awareness of Captain Marvel, Genis succumbed to madness as he became nearly omnipotent and sought to "fix" the Universe. Tragically, he was killed to save the universe by a self-preserving Baron Zemo. He exhibited high end cosmic abilities putting him at herald level easily, and had fair showings across the board.

Originally, he is able to focus his cosmic awareness, granting him the ability to realize exactly what he needs to know at any particular time. When his powers expand, he is driven mad by the vastness of his cosmic awareness. While insane, he returns from the dead, raises Rick Jones from the dead, controls multiple other dead bodies, creates holograms, empowers an alien serial killer ( Karl Coven) and is able to survive a combined assault from the Shiar, The Kree, and the Skrulls massive fleets.

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After Baron Helmut Zemo accidentally links him to other sections of time (when he heals him), Genis-Vell absorbs the Nega-Bands and develops teleportation powers that could transport him through both time and space, the degree of his cosmic awareness had matured to a higher degree.

The Radioactive Man, has a theory that he could control the photons of which all things are composed, implying he has large scale reality altering powers.

Cosmic Awareness:

Genis has exhibited a very strong Cosmic Awareness sense (not quite an Surfer's level with Sensory Perception though...believe it differs as Genis's was not granted by Galactus), and it actually was too much of an overload and drove him "insane". Genis utilized the Cosmic Awareness with varied versatility, even imparting it onto others for brief moments.

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scans: 1) states can see past/future/present 2) - 3) in Asgard, uses Cosmic Awareness to impart knowledge onto "King Thor" incarnation (Odinforce)

Energy Manipulation/output:

Genis is a high energy Energy projection user, with very potent blasting power. He also used his Energy manipulation capabilities to create shields, matter re-arrangement (although different from Surfer's applications once again).

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1) Shields holding King Thor Mjolnir throw (at least for a brief time before breaking) 2) Retaliates with blast powerful enough to stagger and harm (to some degree) King Thor (albiet blast could've been higher potency if desired) 3) effortlessly one shot kills Asgardian Storm Giant (High Tier) which any of the other Asgadians failed to do.

Versatility:

Genis has displayed a wide variety of applications in regards to his abilities. He has exhibited time travel, being able to resurrect himself and others from the dead, effect energy flow in other beings (including brains), empower other beings, increase his strength and speed levels to compare with beings from Super Skrull to Sentry and even Asgardians, and many others.

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1) - 4) kills self and then resurrects self. dang.

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1) - 5) showings (during Thunderbolts / Zemo arc) against Sentry (and using teleportation, intense strength offense)

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1) - 5) resurrects and then in turn kills high tier cosmic being (Blastaar's son)

Extant!

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Hank Hall has had quitetthe interesting history, and has been the being know as Hawk, Monarch, and Extant. As he is an avatar of War empowered by one of the Lords of Chaos originally, a strong primal magical force in the DCU.

As per his showings as Extant however......

Basically he was Hal Jordan Parallax's right hand man during the Zero Hour event (and notably, Hal was the only individual shown to harm Extant....that says a lot about his power levels.). He utilized time manipulation abilities and one shotted many of the DCU's most beloved heroes, the JSA. He uses pure chronal energy and has shown the ability to age or de-age opponents or completely strip them of their powers.

As he does not have many showings, there is not much material to present, so I am saving the majority of showings for later. However......

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White Lantern Kyle Rayner (and composite feats)!

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Originally thought to be chosen by chance, Ganthet chose Kyle Rayner because he had the ability to harness the powers of the emotional spectrum. Once the Torchbearer of the Green Lantern Corps, Kyle has since graduated to the role Ganthet had intended for him: the White Lantern

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which means he has access to all the respective Lantern spectrum ranges.....

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As of the War of The Green Lanterns, Kyle has managed to keep his ability to channel some abilities of The Blue Lantern Corps. How many abilities and to what extent is still yet to be seen. After training with each of the seven corps and learning to wield all of the colors, Kyle has become the first white lantern since blackest night, and perhaps the first true whit lantern as he achieved this on his own without any contact with the entity. As a White Lantern, he is able to wield the white light of the entity as well as any of the seven colors. So far his power has shown to be most effective against the third army and even the guardians, perhaps indicating that Kyle's now white energy makes him more powerful than any lantern as he wields the combined power of all seven lights at once

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Like all Green Lanterns Kyle’s power comes from his power ring which relies on the power of the users willpower and is only restricted by the user's imagination. The powers that the Green Lantern Ring grant Kyle are substantial. Here's a quick breakdown of some of the most well know GL capabilities:

Animating: A Green Lantern can will things to move how he wants. Kyle has even created constructs to assist him in battle that usually take on the forms of his comrades or famous people.

Artificial Intelligence: Every ring has a connection to the Main Battery on Oa, which taps into an artificial intelligence. It acts as an "on-board computer," telling the wearer what they need to know. It can either respond out loud, or silently directly to the wearer's mind. The AI contains a large database of information that may be crucial to a Lantern's success. The ring also translates nearly every language to and from the wearer (though they have difficulty translating profanity), which is why the Corps can communicate with each other. When the bearer of a Green Lantern ring dies, the ring will seek out a suitable replacement for their sector. The AI can be used to play a holographic playback sequence complete with colors across the spectrum based on information in memory banks. The ring can dictate when to pause or stop the playback should an interruption arise where the Lanterns undivided attention is needed. The AI can also alert the wielder of incoming threats or of attempts to manipulate the wielders construct by an outside party. Kyle was once able to use his ring to display a GPS Map in his mind through his right eye in order to pinpoint a location.

Burglar Alarm: A Green Lantern can coat anything with the ring's beam and thus, if anyone other than himself touches it, his ring will glow, alerting him to the possible theft.

Communicator: The ring can act as a personal communicator between Green Lanterns. They have also been seen connected to telephones. Kyle has also been shown to use constructs that can connect with machinery so that he can control them.

Super Strength: Although Kyle does not have physical super strength like Superman he has been show to be able to augment his physical abilities by encasing himself in an augmented version of himself.

Kyle's constructs have also been seen with the ability to lift massive amounts of weight.

Kyle has also been shown to move a third of planet Earth with the assistance of Wonder Woman and Superman.

Energy Projection: The rings can also project beams, form protective bubbles and force fields, and fire destructive blasts. Sometimes, depending on the wearer, the beams and blasts make sounds. Kilowog's ring is one such example of blasts making sounds. Kyle is often showed using powerful beams of energy to attack his enemies. They can come either directly from his ring or through a construct.

Energy Constructs: The rings can construct anything the wearer can imagine from hard-light energy, as long as they are willing to make it. The more determined the wearer is, the more complex and intricate these things can be. The constructs can even be so complex as to form working machines, computers, and even people. This is a common ability among all Green Lantern. (Kyle using his ring for various constructs In another instance Kyle uses his ring to cut the wings off a plane and create new ones in order to direct its path and avoid it from crashing.

Flight: The ring allows the wearer to fly in atmosphere or in space, and can achieve incredible speeds, moving from planet to planet in a matter of hours. Kyle is said to be one of Earths best Green Lanterns. Superman himself has stated that Kyle Rayner is one of the fastest fliers in the J.L.A

Invisibility: The ring can make the wearer or anything else invisible. Kyle on a number of occasions

Mind Control: The wearer of the Ring can use it to plant post hypnotic commands or control a person.

Mirages: The Ring can create mirages/illusions. Kyle once created a hologram of a convict sleeping in his cell so others around them would not notice that Kyle was torturing him for information.

Phasing: The ring allows the user to go through walls. Kyle has displayed the ability to phase through matter on a number of occasions by boarding enemy ships without their knowledge.

Power Absorbing: In the JLA's first fight with Amazo, it was GL who defeated him by drawing out all of Amazo's powers. In Green Lantern/ Silver Surfer: Unholy Alliances, Kyle defeated Parallax with SS' power andThanos with Oa's energy by drawing out all that extra energy from them which made them unconscious. However he couldn't hold all that power nor could his Ring like Hal did with Amazo's powers, so that move isn't often used with so much power. Kyle at on point used a construct to redirect Superman's Heat vision through the use of a construct.

Probing: The ring can probe the Lantern's or another person's mind, allowing him to uncover memories or the person's thoughts.

Spying: Recently, through use of the white lantern ring, Kyle gained the ability to open a small portal. in which he can watch others without them seeing.

Temperature Control: The Ring can increase or decrease the temperature of anything, even something as large as stars, or even create bubbles of intense heat or cold, even down to Absolute Zero.

Transforming: The ring can transform anyone or anything, be it into an animal, altering their state of appearance, or their size. Once Hal and Alan turned the two Flashes (Barry and Jay) to light protons in order to free them from prisons. Kyle himself has displayed the ability to transform himself into an ape.

Electro-magnetic scanning: The ring can allow(through the use of x rays) the user to see through walls, without the people on the other side knowing. it can also scan along the Electromagnetic spectrum.

Wormhole/Warps: The ring can open wormholes to cut down on distance. Kyle has the ability to travel from Earth to Oa or any other point in the Universe through the use of Hyperspace wormholes. There is a limit to which however this ability can be used.

Healing: A wielder can command a ring to heal him/her/itself of any injures incurred. It can also heal others. Kyle has been seen to heal himself from third degree burns. Kyle also displayed the ability to create a construct that would purge his fellow teammates of the effects of mind control.

Energy twin: The ring can create an energy copy of the wielder which is connected to the ring wielder, any information the twin gathers is transferred to the wielder upon touch while others cannot see this twin apart from fellow Green Lanterns.

Pocket dimension : Within the ring is a pocket dimension which can altered to the wielders specification. It can be used to contain opponents. This ability can also be used to hold a Green Lanterns battery.

Sub-routines: The power rings have inner programmings or mechanisms which can be executed without the user's permission. One such sub-routine is the auto-shield. This shield automatically protects a wielder from external harm and has been proven to be capable of protecting the wielder from planetary level attacks. ON a number of occasions Kyle has displayed the ability to give his rings orders such as build a construct at a certain moment in time or even have the construct disintegrate after a certain period in time. Kyle was once able to control his ring while it was on the finger of another person.

Force Fields. Kyle's ring gives him the ability to create powerful force fields that can either encompass himself or a wide area. Kyle's Ring has been seen with the ability to protect an entire city from a nuclear blast.

Kyle's has also been shown to create constructs that can stop tidal waves.

Some notable feats of Kyle without the White amperage:

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scans: 1) construct on grand scale. lifting massive city. 2) the infamous Superman 1,000,000 instance 3) - 4) construct large and powerful enough to affect the entire planet (not the only instance either, will get to that later) 5) KOing Mongul when he was only a noob

and the there's always this to consider:

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creating Atomic Blasts. Nuclear holocaust. just sayin................

That should be enough for an Intro. There's so much ground to cover for Kyle, that I'm just gonna let it sit with this. We can get into more later in the debate.

over to you my man...............

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#12 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: got my intro up, all you now man. I figured I would do Opener post/Strategy after you laid down some knowledge on Wally.......

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#13 Edited by Kingant27 (16647 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting please

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#14 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

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#15 Edited by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

the same reason i do most of my lop-sided CaVs too big an ego and for fun

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#16 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

Um...what?

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#17 Posted by Jbourne_32 (2224 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

Um...what?

Dont you yourself think this is kind of uneven?

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#18 Edited by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: got my intro up, all you now man. I figured I would do Opener post/Strategy after you laid down some knowledge on Wally.......

Cool. I'll get this soon(if I'm not lazy...)

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#19 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@dondave said:

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

Um...what?

Dont you yourself think this is kind of uneven?

Not THAT uneven given the lack of morals and all, but I do agree that of all the teams in my tourney this is the one that I'm crapping my pants at the idea of facing.

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#20 Posted by Jbourne_32 (2224 posts) - - Show Bio

@jbourne_32 said:

@highaccuser said:

@dondave said:

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

Um...what?

Dont you yourself think this is kind of uneven?

Not THAT uneven given the lack of morals and all, but I do agree that of all the teams in my tourney this is the one that I'm crapping my pants at the idea of facing.

I guess not...Best of luck :)

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#21 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

the same reason i do most of my lop-sided CaVs too big an ego and for fun

That too.

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#22 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560 said:

@dondave said:

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

the same reason i do most of my lop-sided CaVs too big an ego and for fun

That too.

I've been guilty of this myself. I like the "underdog uphill battle" challenge. win some..lose some......meh.

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#23 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

who knows............he's the tourney Mod in this...............maybe he wanted a challenge ad saw this as the only team that would be "fair" to pit Wally against. I've always wanted to give a Flash a beat down in a match...............here's my opportunity lol.......

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#24 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Why would highaccuser agree to this?

who knows............he's the tourney Mod in this...............maybe he wanted a challenge ad saw this as the only team that would be "fair" to pit Wally against. I've always wanted to give a Flash a beat down in a match...............here's my opportunity lol.......

Actually I just let the random number generator pick for me. Trust me, this is NOT the team I would've faced normally.

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#25 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Trust me, this is NOT the team I would've faced normally

LMFAOOOO

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#26 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: Alrighty

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Wally is powerful and extremely dangerous in this scenario when he's going all out. Your team is powerful, absurdly so, but Wally is the kind of enemy that raw power doesn't matter against. Your team could outclass him completely from a power standpoint(they kind of do), and Wally would still have a chance at soloing all of them for one reason: operational speed.

The speeds Wally operates at are ungodly. Even some of the fastest characters in his universe can't hope to keep up with him while moving at high speeds. Your team is powerful, but they don't have the same degree of operational speed as Wally and they can't counter it.

Now of course to showcase said speed:

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Wally perceives at speeds where time is stopped relative to him. He has such precise control over this perception he can change times speed relative to him.

I did not do the following calculations. Feel free to correct them if you see any errors.

13 trillion times light speed. This is the level of Speed we're talking about. Now this may seem like a travel feat at first, but you have to realize that Flash needs to be able to navigate at that speed to search through the city to be able to actually pick up the people without just zooming through.

Now you might say that this was only a subluminal feat because that's what the writer says. However, the writer also said Wally evacuated that city in 10 pictoseconds. Neither of these statements is more of a writers statement than the other, so shouldn't we support the one the data agrees with?

Now, even if a character has high level or even FTL operational speed, they can't compete with Wally. Take Superman for example. He has notable feats like moving between nanoseconds, tagging professor Zoom, moving faster than thought easily, and seeing Barry Allen when he was moving at superluminal speeds. But when it comes to Wally?

Wally moves at speeds where Superman literally appears as a statue to him. This isn't the only time he's made people with high operational speed look sluggish. Wally's operated too fast for Wonder Woman, Green Lanterns, Martian Manhunter, White Martians, Professor Zoom and the like to possibly keep up with.

Now that I've covered the degree of speed Wally has, I'll go into countering each of your team individually.

Countering Kyle

Kyle is going down in the first pictosecond of the fight. He's certainly powerful as a white lantern, but he hasn't gained any reaction speed from becoming a white lantern. Wally has already moved at speeds where him and his blasts appear to be frozen.

And how does he get through Kyles shields? Simple: Speed steal.

Now, many people have noted speed steal is something Flash doesn't use right and that he could end all of his fights easily if he just did it right off the bat. This is true, however Wally has speed stolen on countless occasions and though he doesn't do it quite as much as he should, he's done it way more than enough times for it to be an in character move.

  1. Steals Amazo's speed.
  2. Steals speed from a bunch of bullets.
  3. Steals speed from Girder.
  4. Permanently steals Inertias speed and turns him into a statue.
  5. Steals speed from Cheetah.
  6. Steals Lady Savitar's speed.

So he does it a lot. Now normally this wouldn't work on Kyle since he only needs to think for his ring to be effective. Thankfully, Wally has a way of stealing speed that works quite well on the brain:

Despite all appearances, that's Wally disguised as Zoom. I can give you issue numbers and context, but trust me, that's him.

Kyle is powerful, but he lacks any internal durability to protect him from this kind of attack. Now, if you think Kyle has too much raw power for Wally to steal his speed, think again:

Wally is capable of stealing speed on a planetary level. Combined with the Amazo feat and he can definently steal Kyles speed.

Countering Genis-Vell and Extant

Now, my first order of buisness on your whole team is to steal their speed. That said, my method of taking care of Kyle may not work on Genis or Extant. Therefore, I will need to use Wally's offensive abilites to take care of them. Enter the infinite mass punch.

The infinite mass punch is Wally's ace for taking out highly durable opponents. As of now, no one has taken an IMP and stayed in the fight properly. Let's look at it's success rate thus far:

That's the Reverse Flash, Barry Allens equal in speed. Like all Flashes, he has very high durability to blunt attacks.

1. Tanks a punch from Superman.

2-3. Barry, his equal, tanks blows from a bloodlusted Martian Manhunter.

Now for a more well known instance:

That's Zum, a white Martian. Wally one-shotted him hard enough to send him into Orbit and cause him to land on the other side of the globe.

People try to discredit this by calling White Martians featless. This is certainly not true:

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One white martian took on Big Barda, Steel, Plastic Man, Kyle, and Orion all at the same time. Orion couldn't put him down even after he set himself on fire(which is kryptonite to martians), which is insanely impressive when you consider that Orion has knocked a sundipped Superman across the globe.

Now for the biggest one of them all:

The anti-monitor. Now clearly he wasn't at his most powerful at this point, but he was still so durable that an army of pre-crisis heroes couldn't harm him him even after Wally amped them by lending them speed(he can do that btw). It took Wally using a ridiculous IMP spammage to break apart his armor. This is the kind of output a bloodlusted Wally is packing.

Now, Genis and Extant are powerful, but the can still be hurt by blunt force.

Atlas beating Genis bloody with his blow:

And Extant was harmed by Alan and Stargirl, neither who have output even close to a morals off Wally.

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#27 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: nice. bout time I get to reply to some of your stuff instead of just me postin lol..... will have reply up ASAP.

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#28 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: nice. bout time I get to reply to some of your stuff instead of just me postin lol..... will have reply up ASAP.

You mean our other match? I don't think that tourneys active anymore. Besides, I regret my stratagy and I'd spend most of the Mordru vs Genis post correcting some miswording of mine.

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#29 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 said:

@highaccuser: nice. bout time I get to reply to some of your stuff instead of just me postin lol..... will have reply up ASAP.

You mean our other match? I don't think that tourneys active anymore. Besides, I regret my stratagy and I'd spend most of the Mordru vs Genis post correcting some miswording of mine.

awwww, I wanna keep goin with that match! those were some awesome characters to use together! Did you see that I posted recently in that? did A Surfer/Thanos breakdown........check it out.

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#30 Edited by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: yeah I read it. If we're talking about that let's not do so on this thread .

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#31 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: We still doing this?

Lol, yeah. Busy weekend, no vine time. Workin on reply......had to collect wally scans. This is no regular match.....wally is one heckofa foe and need to have the proper responses to defuse the flash wankers for voting lol

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#34 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@cosmicallyaware1: We still doing this?

Lol, yeah. Busy weekend, no vine time. Workin on reply......had to collect wally scans. This is no regular match.....wally is one heckofa foe and need to have the proper responses to defuse the flash wankers for voting lol

Ha. I guess so. Take your time.

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#35 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: buildin response pal, hopefully get it up by end of night.................

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#36 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: buildin response pal, hopefully get it up by end of night.................

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#37 Edited by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: Been a while...I don't want this to be like my last tourney where no one posted.

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#39 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: Been a while...I don't want this to be like my last tourney where no one posted.

this is really uncharacteristic of me, I deeply apologize. I am building the response (and have been for many days now lol).......it's just much larger and comprehensive than I imagined. I have been super swamped with work and just exhausted this past week. every night I go home and mean to work on it but I just crash out. Tryin to get as much as possible done today, should have it all finished if I go home and work on it after wife and son go to bed.

One hell of a response though......I've wanted to debate against Flash for some time, and got graced with the best team to counter Wally lol......

trust me, I won't leave this one hangin.....I'll see this through to the end pal!

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#40 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: Alright. Looking forward to it. I've also really wanted to debate with flash for some time. I'll wait as long as I need to.

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#41 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@cosmicallyaware1: Alright. Looking forward to it. I've also really wanted to debate with flash for some time. I'll wait as long as I need to.

ok man, let's get some progress here....... let's really dive into this shall we?

The defeat and desecration of Wally West.......

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This is actually a complicated subject and not one to be taken lightly. However, even taking into consideration Wally's substantial abilities and utmost respect for him here......he is simply outclasses and overpowered. All of which, I will respectfully and thoroughly cover in great detail in the following dissections. Above all, this team has the specific abilities and powersets to ideally face Wally..............these are not the gentlemen that he would want to face.

Let me present an overall view of how the case shall be presented:

  1. Deeper look at the abilities my operatives bring to the encounter.
  2. Structured plan of attack, and why successful against Wally.
  3. Wally West is not infallible.
  4. Closing Argument, final rebuttals and points of consideration.

now I will move forward with the presentation.....

1) Deeper look at the abilities that my operatives bring to the encounter

Wally is powerful and extremely dangerous in this scenario when he's going all out. Your team is powerful, absurdly so, but Wally is the kind of enemy that raw power doesn't matter against. Your team could outclass him completely from a power standpoint(they kind of do), and Wally would still have a chance at soloing all of them for one reason: operational speed

first off, I would like to begin by saying that I totally acknowledge Wally's speed. However, in this case I don't feel that it's entirely accurate to say that "raw power" from these individual's "doesn't matter". And furthermore operational speed won't help necessarily against the types of attacks that will be offloaded at him here. Let's take a closer look on exactly what he is dealing with here.....

In regards to Extant:

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You are facing a being that has complete mastery over the timestream and utilizes precise local chronal energy attacks to alter (devastatingly at that) an individual. Let's do a recap real quick on the being that is Extant......Hank Hall.

1st off....enter Monarch.

not to be confused there are two versions of Monarch...two different people. This is the first Monarch....which was Hank Hall. The second version was Captain Atom (Nathaniel) which was showcased in Countdown:Arena and faced Superman Prime.

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Hank Hall, as Monarch (which would be a degrade of what he is as Extant) was able to take on the majority of the JLA and other DCU heroes singlehandedly (isn't that Wally in that scan?) during the Armageddon2001 story-line. So taking that into consideration, that's already enough power there to arguably solo Wally. And we're not even taking into consideration (which I will be covering in following points) the "waverider" upgrade that led to what Extant is now and the inclusion of the other two team members (Kyle and Genis)

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Waverider is sent back in time from a dystopian future to prevent a tyrant from gaining power. Armed only with the knowledge thatMonarch used to be a superhero, Waverider touches each superhero with his or her own Annual for a glimpse of the future.

The problems arose when word leaked early in the summer that Monarch was going to be Captain Atom. In a ridiculous attempt at damage control, the editors at DC decided to re-write their ending on the fly. At the last minute, Captain Atom was allowed to continue as a hero while Monarch appeared and brutally murdered Dovefrom also-ran Titan wannabes Hawk & Dove. When Dove is killed, Hawk goes crazy, murdering Monarch who is revealed to be a future version of Hawk and putting on the Monarch armour himself.

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now add on top of Monarch's abilities.................the being known as Waverider.

2nd off.......enter Waverider.........

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Matthew Ryder was a scientist from the future Earth ruled by Monarch, who had eliminated all heroes. Ryder believed that one of Earth's heroes had evolved into Monarch, and, using his scientific skills..... Matthew Ryder created a time machine to journey into the past and change history. Ryder convinced Monarch to let him be a guinea pig in his own device. Monarch agreed, believing Ryder, like several initial test subjects, would die in the process. Ryder however survived, merging with the timestream and transforming into Waverider, a cosmically temporal powered being. Traveling back to the past, he joined forces with the Justice League of America, the Titans and Captain Atom to defeat Monarch, who was later revealed to be Hank Hall, formerly the hero known as Hawk. Waverider later joined the Linear Men , a group devoted to maintaining the timestream integrity.

So Waverider is an adept time traveler and time manipulator. We all remember that the effects Zoom had in Flashpoint? Those are the typr of capabilities that Waverider brings to the table.

Extant possesses all those abilities in full. Time manipulation. Time Freeze (Flash's worst enemy!) He can create chronal warps. Totally able to neuter the Flash's speed capabilities by "stepping between seconds".

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what scans show: waverider's capacity for instant timetravel and reactionary skill.

He will be able to adapt to wally's speed offensive.

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what scans show: Waverider's unique composition allows him to absorb energy types, The point here is that conventional means will not harm Extant and if Wally tries vibrational attacks, the likelihood of that being ineffective is high due to the energy being able to be absorbed.

One thing is that Waverider alone had shown the ability to be "in between seconds" and even existing in Present Time, unable to be detected. Even from Kal's enhanced abilities. He was not able to detect Waverider at all................he may even be able to slip past Wally's for a time (i'm remembering in Kingdom Come when Wally sensed Norman with the Spectre "outside time")

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and these are things that could definitely hinder a speed force users ability.

and seeing as Waverider is a part of Extant (long story, at least a version of him), he has access to all those abilities

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another wonderful thing that this illustrates as well....................is the existence of Energy Draining capabilities. Albeit not frequently, it exists nonetheless.

Speed has no advantage over a being who can manipulate and travel in time to the degree that Extant does here.

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wouldn't do this here, mostly due to a cheap shot, and not following OP...............but just a glimpse on what Extant is capable of. Yes, he was in possession of the Worlog at the time (which amped his abilities to a very high degree), however still within his range. And it illustrates that he has dealt with Flashes previously.

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So far, I think it's fair that we have an understanding of what Wally is facing in Extant, and what makes him who he is. What has not been covered yet, I will now address.

What Extant will do to Wally.............

there are two major considerations here.

  1. Can Extant react to Wally's speeds?
  2. What exactly will the Offensive consist of on Extant's part?

1.) response: arguably the toughest part for anyone that faces any Flash. reacting to the extreme speeds. Most individuals have no chance, and most often than not, especially considering that Wally is bloodlusted.........Extant would have no chance. However, considering the nature of his powerset, I say that Extant will be just fine. Waverider's abilities alone add enough that Wally's movements will easily be able to be detected and time manipulation will allow reactionary measures.

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here Waverider was able to detect Wally's movements traveling up to Lightspeed and was able to easily (apparently) match pace with him. So I don't see the issue.

2.) response: ahhhhh. Now that's the main show!!! Extant will completely demolish Wally on the offensive. I really want to use one main example of Extant;s offensive power..........against the JSA.

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scans: from Zero Hour 3 facing the JSA

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now, I know what you're thinking. Old men = slow reaction times. Cool , I get it and would make the same argument myself lol.....however what I really want to focus on is the damaging effects of what he can do. He depowered Alan's ring and affected Jay's connection to the speed force. He aged to the point of death and.....one shotted Classic Fate.

- de-age an opponent.

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in this example he needed not to touch, it was a "blasting" ability

whereas in this example he had physical contact (gonna be tough with Wally)

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- straight up chronal energy "kill shot"

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- and then there's completely depowering someone...........

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so:

In conclusion:

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I will be back to finish......figured this would get started.

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#43 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Yo. I'll be back in tonight or tomorrow to present my next piece in this. Enter Mad God Genis Vell

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#44 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Edited by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1:

first off, I would like to begin by saying that I totally acknowledge Wally's speed. However, in this case I don't feel that it's entirely accurate to say that "raw power" from these individual's "doesn't matter". And furthermore operational speed won't help necessarily against the types of attacks that will be offloaded at him here. Let's take a closer look on exactly what he is dealing with here.....

I rather find it is. Extant and the rest of your team may be powerful, but they can do very little as far as hitting Wally goes, which more or less neuters any way they have of harming him.

So Waverider is an adept time traveler and time manipulator. We all remember that the effects Zoom had in Flashpoint? Those are the typr of capabilities that Waverider brings to the table.

Extant possesses all those abilities in full. Time manipulation. Time Freeze (Flash's worst enemy!) He can create chronal warps. Totally able to neuter the Flash's speed capabilities by "stepping between seconds".

Ah...no. I'm fully aware Extant has Waveriders abilities, but he's never shown he actually knows how to use them properly. Having powers and knowing how to use them are not the same thing. In one instance Wally stole Jay's speed and gave it to Mirror Master and Captain Cold. Their reaction? It made them sick to the stomach, and needless to say they weren't doing fancy vibration stuff like Jay can because being able to do so doesn't mean he knows how.

what scans show: waverider's capacity for instant timetravel and reactionary skill.

He will be able to adapt to wally's speed offensive.

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what scans show: Waverider's unique composition allows him to absorb energy types, The point here is that conventional means will not harm Extant and if Wally tries vibrational attacks, the likelihood of that being ineffective is high due to the energy being able to be absorbed.

Again, this is Waverider doing something Extant has never shown the ability to do. During his fights with the JSA, Extant was clearly hurt by energy blasts from Stargirl and Constructs from Alan, both of which he would've phased right through if he actually knew he could do this, not to mention he was actually beaten when Hourman one million distributes his power hour amongst the JSA to counter his time manipulation and mostly they just wail on him. Even in his first fight with the JSA standard blows hurt him.

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Also, being mad of energy doesn't protect one from speed steal. During The Human Race, before Wally even really understood speed stealing, he stole speed from Blue Energy Superman.

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One thing is that Waverider alone had shown the ability to be "in between seconds" and even existing in Present Time, unable to be detected. Even from Kal's enhanced abilities. He was not able to detect Waverider at all................he may even be able to slip past Wally's for a time (i'm remembering in Kingdom Come when Wally sensed Norman with the Spectre "outside time")

Kal may have good senses, but as I showed above, he doesn't have Wally's level of perception. Moving between the seconds is good and all, but Wally can perceive events that last for a nanosecond. Waverider has never been quantified as moving beyond that speed, and Extant definently hasn't.

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Speed has no advantage over a being who can manipulate and travel in time to the degree that Extant does here.

Are you suggesting that Extant will be able to stop Wally with time manipulation/stopping? Because several instances show much slower people than Wally.

First we have an issue of action comics where Hal's ring dilutes time to a fraction of a nanosecond. Despite time being slowed down, Superman uses his raw speed to keep up with Hal and Deadman, who are both unaffected by the dilution. This is abnormally fast for Superman and moving in pictoseconds isn't really the norm for him, but the point stands that with sufficent speed time manipulation can be overcome.

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Here we have something similar. Superman manages to push through temporal dilution in combat. In this instance his enemy is actively trying to stop him completely and due to Clarks raw speed, he fails.

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And here, Silver Surfer manages to move even when time is completely frozen. Surfer is leagues and leagues beneath Wally in speed, and time hasn't just slowed here, it's actively stopped dead and all that's require is the nessecary speed to continue moving.

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So stopping or slowing down time is ineffective against people much slower than Wally. Why would it affect Wally himself?

1.) response: arguably the toughest part for anyone that faces any Flash. reacting to the extreme speeds. Most individuals have no chance, and most often than not, especially considering that Wally is bloodlusted.........Extant would have no chance. However, considering the nature of his powerset, I say that Extant will be just fine. Waverider's abilities alone add enough that Wally's movements will easily be able to be detected and time manipulation will allow reactionary measures.

here Waverider was able to detect Wally's movements traveling up to Lightspeed and was able to easily (apparently) match pace with him. So I don't see the issue.

Again, this is Waverider and not extant. On top of that, Wally became faster as a direct result of the scan posted. Then he had trouble moving at lightspeed, after that event Wally was able to move at sub lightspeed with no effort. There's no reason someone like Superman couldn't do what Waverider did in that instance.

"I'm moving at near light speed without the slightest effort"

2.) response: ahhhhh. Now that's the main show!!! Extant will completely demolish Wally on the offensive. I really want to use one main example of Extant;s offensive power..........against the JSA.

now, I know what you're thinking. Old men = slow reaction times. Cool , I get it and would make the same argument myself lol.....however what I really want to focus on is the damaging effects of what he can do. He depowered Alan's ring and affected Jay's connection to the speed force. He aged to the point of death and.....one shotted Classic Fate.

This move would likely cause Wally major trouble, only Extant's getting blitzed before he can react. I've shown that simple blunt force can harm extant, so a full force infinite mass punch to the face should honestly one-shot Extant. Wally's bloodlusted here, so I shouldn't need to point out that he's going to blitz, but here's some instances of him blitzing in character with great proficency.

Here Wally stabs the team busting android Amazo before he can react. This is quite impressive because Amazo has the speed of the whole JLA(which he later uses to beat Wally to a pulp. It's also worth noting that even with an IMP, Wally has able to drive a hole in someone as durable as Amazo.

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Here Wally blitzes Martian Manhnter and nearly BFR's him into some fire before he can react. J'onn has FTL reaction speed himself as you've yourself made a case for, and Wally was even slowing himself down to talk with him. Even more impressive is that Wally clearly expressed qualms about harming J'onn yet still completely blitzed him.

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Here is one of the few times we see a morals off Wally. He badly blitzes Inertia and essentially makes a mockery out of him despite him having considerable speed himself. Wally doesn't just one-up Inertia in speed, he completely dominates him and considers doing some of the nastier morals off options he has at his disposal now.

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This isn't even counting Wallys more powerful IMP blitzes done against Zum or the anti-monitor, which Extant completely lacks the durability to handle.

- de-age an opponent.

- straight up chronal energy "kill shot"

- and then there's completely depowering someone...........

He doesn't have time to do any of these.

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#46 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: lol, haven't forgotten bro, I'll get reply up soon......next day or so. In all honesty still an arse load of ground to cover here...........just have been swamped at work and such lately

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#47 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: lol, haven't forgotten bro, I'll get reply up soon......next day or so. In all honesty still an arse load of ground to cover here...........just have been swamped at work and such lately

I'll be gone for two weeks. No rush, I really do want to get this one done.

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#48 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 said:

@highaccuser: lol, haven't forgotten bro, I'll get reply up soon......next day or so. In all honesty still an arse load of ground to cover here...........just have been swamped at work and such lately

I'll be gone for two weeks. No rush, I really do want to get this one done.

we WILL get this done man, I've just been moving at a slower pace as of late due to increasingly busy at work. However, I will keep plugging away at it. By the time you come back, will have some good stuff up for you to reply to lol.........

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#49 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: my man. I haven't forgotten about this. Have been away from the vine a bit, but back in action now. Reply when you see this (not sure if you are back). We will see this through to the end, have a feeling that this thread will be referred to in the future!

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#50 Posted by Sy8000 (34810 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: my man. I haven't forgotten about this. Have been away from the vine a bit, but back in action now. Reply when you see this (not sure if you are back). We will see this through to the end, have a feeling that this thread will be referred to in the future!

Alright cool.