"Post-Retcon" TOAA/TOAM runs a gauntlet

From what've heard TOAA is no longer omnipotent so let's make a battle with him. Marvel's The One Above Most runs a gauntlet. Give me some of that dimensional tiering nonsense! just joking, don't kill me

ROUND 1: The Spectre

ROUND 2: Ajimu Najimi

ROUND 3: STTGL

ROUND 4: The Thought Robot

ROUND 5: Composite Thanos

ROUND 6: Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos

ROUND 7: The Presence (this one is the most interesting one for obvious reasons so I would appreciate some more insight on this one)

ROUND 8: Pre-Retcon Beyonder

ROUND 9: Featherine Augustus Aurora

FINAL ROUND: Every japanese girl dream boyfriend, Azathoth

It's a bit hard to grade TOAA considering the lack of proper feats, but with scaling, 8.

Beyonder pre Retcon was a actual god in his own dimension, and seemed to be better (which was what the writers intended with his creation, I'm pretty sure)

Presence is too confusing/inconsistent to win a majority.

@diarrhearegatta: Thanks for the input and yeah I didn't add characters like The Living Tribunal or Eternity because I thought TOAA should scale to them by default.

Do you think Pre-retcon Beyonder would be the strongest character in current Marvel if he entered it right now?

Stops at 6 if they are composite, otherwise 7.

Aurora blinks Azathoth from what I've heard of him. He's impressive, but loses to Umineko characters far weaker than Aurora. He should be at 6, below Michael and Lucifer (or maybe above depending on their interpretation).

The Presence scales to a much higher cosmology than Marvel and would stomp the new incompetent TOAA. Hell, a composite Presence is above this entire list (including Aurora), but I assume you're merely using the strongest one and not a hypothetical composite. Regardless, he stomps the new TOAA and the entire list, then proceeds to maybe stalemate Aurora if he's the strongest version.

@gaoron: Perhaps, but I'd say that he'd still have competition.

This is precisely why Comic Vine needs to eliminate the "no omnipotents" rule and just stick to feats. TOAA was given a free pass for years, and perhaps he was never omnipotent.

Not seeing it. Just getting into Lovecraft but Azathoth seems to be one of the closest to omnipotent from non confirmed omnipotent characters from what've read on him. Lovecraft verse is a infnite multiverse with each universe having infnite number of dimensions that cannot be comprehended by lesser ones. And Azathoth is not only above all of that infinite x infinite reality, it's just his dream that's gonna stop existing when he wakes up. He's basically PR Beyonder and Oblivion (who I forgot to add dammit) combined and on steroids. This loli doesn't seem to compare imo.

As for Presence, yeah I'm not counting "composite" since every DC author seems to have different vision for DC cosmos, mixing it all up creates an inconsistent mess.

@gaoron: Aurora is one step away from omnipotence and even touched the realm of the Creator (the omnipotent being of Umineko). So to decide who is stronger, you go off cosmology. Umineko's Humain Domain already has an infinite-D ladder, and the Witches Domain is infinitely superior to that, and has the ladder continue on in its own domain and is infinite-D, then we have the Creator's Domain (where Aurora is) that is infinitely above the Witches Domain. So basically we have the Creator's Realm, who is infinitely superior to the infinite-D Witches Domain, which is infinitely superior to the infinite-D Human Domain. And since Aurora is one step away from omnipotence, you can't even use that for Azathoth since both have done it. So the Human Domain (the lowest domain that is dwarfed by everything) is already infinite-D. Azathoth would only be beyond the infinite-D Human Domain, meaning he'd be barely in the lowest part of the Witches Domain.

I posted everything here in some spite-thread here: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/willard-h-wright-and-dlanor-a-knox-when-they-cry-r-2001910/ < The Creator's Domain is infinitely superior to all of this.

The only one who can compare to Aurora in this thread is the strongest non-omnipotent version of the Presence, due to a similar cosmology, though a hypothetical composite Presence is far stronger than even her.

Also Aurora isn't a loli.

This doesn't resemble a loli at all.

5

CAS > Composite Thanos stops at 4.

He stops at 8 who should be above everyone here.

What are you mean with ''post? Do you mean that TOAA got retconned into a non-omnipotent beign? If you mean that, he stops at 8.

Lovecraft (original lore) did not have Infinite Dimensions. What we had is that Yog Sothoth was upwardly the archetypal grand infinity outside 5 spatial dimensions which is mistakenly wanked to be Infinite Dimensional. So he gets crushed.

In fact, the Dimensions were stated to be limited in the same story. And the Archetypal Infinity was not referring to the number of dimensions because it was stated that the Archetypal Eternity/Infinity of Yog was outside the dimensions. What we really see in that story is that Yog was infinitely greater than Lovecraft's perception of 5 Dimensions and that's it.

The Multiverse of Lovecraft was not a Quantum Timeline Multiverse. There are Multiple Realms there but these were not timeline universes as genetic relationships between infinite universes to infinite universes that create new universes and etc. like Marvel. As that was not a thing by the time Lovecraft died.

In fact, Lovecraft believed that each generation of a human geneology line was each a dimensional layer, which is dumb. And very primitive garbage understanding of Dimensions compared to how we see it.

Both Quantum and Infinitely Levels of Infinity Multiverse would not be a thing until years and years after Lovecraft died.

Inconsistent? Yes. Confusing and weak? No. Current TOAA wouldn't defeat most primary versions of the Presence anyway.

According to Starlin, Presence and the Void are one. Good luck for TOAA who couldn't fix a normal universe, fighting something basically embodied nothingness and contained everything.

According to Matteis? The Presence is beyond the Void and beyond Infinite Dimensions. Discounting the fact that Matteis still thinks Presence is Omnipotent in 2017 So this is even worse.

According to Neil Gaiman and Carey? The Presence was at the verge of either saving or destroying an Infinitely Layered Creation.

I cannot see a guy who cannot fix a normal universe defeating these Presence portrayals. I can't.

the minute you start saying characters surpass an infinite level of anything in any respect you have entered the realm of utter gibberish

Lmfao, a lot of Universe level characters surpass infinity by default. By your logic, we should just dump all Universe+ level discussions. If you couldn't tell, it's imaginary fiction. So who really cares how ridiculous it is?

5

@sungsam:it's not a matter of being ridiculous, it's a matter of being literally nonsensical. By sheer definition infinity has no limit, if it can be surpassed then by definition it is not infinity. There is no way to make a logical argument when you are arguing with terminology that outright contradicts itself.

The definition did not say that we cannot make nonsensical debates about Imaginary Fictional characters that have higher infinities. So your complaint doesn't apply here.

Besides that, you don't even really have a point of purpose behind your complaint.

@sungsam: It's not a complaint, lol, I'm just observing that it makes no sense. You're welcome to make arguments that don't make sense if you like.

@amendment50: They do actually; you just don't know anything about higher dimensions or layered-type multiverses. These characters are all proven to be above infinity (well most of them).

@zgtfreak: okey dokey

Except your complaint is that you are implying we are thinking there are infinities bigger than True Infinity. And what you are talking about is TRUE INFINITY, which you are confusing we are using. NO CHARACTER on this thread is above True Infinity, they're Nigh-Omnipotents so not truly Infinity.

Unless you think Omnipotence is a thing, and only Omnipotents are Truly Infinite. This should have been obvious to you.

Different levels of infinities we look like we are talking about are basically Transfinite Numbers, not true infinity, but greater than any finite number.

Greater than the idea of Finite =/= True Infinity.

For example, the Fifth Dimension only accounts for Infinite Timelines that are based on the events of one common universe. For example, infinite possibilities diverging from a certain period. Let's say, whether you decide to walk to work or take the bus to work. But it does not account for possibilities of Universes where you were not born. That is the 6th Dimension.

So just as Transfinite numbers are not True infinities, the 5th Dimension contains Transfinite number of timelines but with limited variables that makes it not truly Infinite. And does not include Universes made of Magic for example, it only includes possibilities where you are born but not universes where your parents decide to fuck someone else.

Another example is characters like Living Tribunal has endless stamina and power, and can destroy an Infinite Multiverse, but he is killable by the Beyonders. So he is not True Infinite in all variables of power. Only True Omnipotents can be.

There is nearly no such thing as True Infinity Variation in fiction. Because if that was true, Featherine, Yog Sothoth, Lucifer, Beyonder and Crimson King should all be the same character, since True Infinity Omniverse demands an infinite configuration variability of a Cosmic Hierarchy as opposed to a Mono-System one that most writers seem too dumb to forget.

If True Infinity should exist in fiction, this would only apply to Truly Omnipotent characters who are Omni-Infinite like the JMD Presence, Pre-Retcon TOAA or Azathoth. But even that is controversial.

So if I say Featherine is above more infinities than Living Tribunal, I'm not saying Suggsverse. I'm just saying, that she is of a greater level of Transfinite Numbers of Greater Dimensions than Living Tribunal.

So yeah, none of the characters in this thread are above True Infinity as that is dumb. Only Suggsverse would think that. They are Transfinite. Sorry, but you are barking off the wrong tree.

What people do not understand is that Transfinite Numbers PERFECTLY align with the concept of Higher Dimensions and Dimensional Tiering. People continue to think that they don't coincide, but they do. The Higher Dimensions only give us a detailed rationalized explanation of why there are different levels of Transfinite Numbers of Multiverses.

Still Clears

Or Stalemate at 7

@sungsam: Don't bring science theories to fictional universes, they are unproven and hold as much weight as Bible, Lovecraft or Harry Potter for that matter. We only go by what was said in the actual fictional work with no relation to our current science theories. Lovecraft dimensions were described as "reachless heights of archetypal infinity" and that's what we are going with.

"In fact, Lovecraft believed that each generation of a human geneology line was each a dimensional layer, which is dumb. And very primitive garbage understanding of Dimensions compared to how we see it."

Really man? In 100 years from now on people are gonna laught at "Quantum Timeline Multiverse" theories and call it primitive garbage too, you know that right? As long as we advance as a human race we're gonna come up with even more crazy and absurd theories but in the end it's all unproven and probably never will be. Don't treat as some proven facts and law of how reality works because it's not.

"Both Quantum and Infinitely Levels of Infinity Multiverse would not be a thing until years and years after Lovecraft died."

Nobody cares, Lovecraft written his mythos as infinite dimensional, it doesn't have to be true to current popular science theories.

@gaoron: You're going to lose a debate with Sung in a heartbeat, as this tier of power isn't in your usual domain of debating, and people like us debate it on a daily, so I'd advise against trying to outright argue against him. I could've attacked Lovecraft dimensional tierring without science, but I chose not to since that will turn this thread into pure cancer.

Don't worry, my debating is dimensions above everybody based on quantum debating science theory :/

@gaoron: Lmfao, all the theories I talk about are not real smart guy. I know that. But they are the foundation for the Pseudo-scientific dimensions used in fictional debates regardless of franchise. Stop misrepresenting my own views before I accuse you of making a thread with a winner in mind. Do you want to play that game? I sure as hell can.

That said, dimensions works differently in different fictions and that is why bring this up. His dimensions are inferior to DC's or Marvel's or Umineko's because their Universes make new Universes while Lovecraft doesn't.

And Lovecraft did not have infinite dimensions. It was literally stated the dimensions were finite and he ended numbering them to five and were contained by an Archetypal Infinity.

Yog was just an Infinite being above 5 dimensions and that is it going by what was written I was. He is just 6 Dimensional by the Multiversity Bloc's standards.

@gaoron: @sungsam Oh boy... So it begins...

What Sung said and the fact that Lovecraft cosmology is really just that of an infinite multiverse. Dimensional tierring/a layered-type multiverse setting has never been stated for Lovecraft; I've merely been nice enough to not mention it since I feel it wrong to hammer to death a non-multiversal debater in a casual thread, but you've provoked us. :\ Well... also the fact that this will turn this thread into pure cancer.

Yog being infinitely beyond infinite multiverse level merely puts him at baseline megaverse level.

Yog was just an Infinite being above 5 dimensions and that is it going by what was written I was. He is just 6 Dimensional by the Multiversity Bloc's standards.

Edit: Ah, dang... You edited your post Sung. I was saying that in this comment. LOL

He has no way to defeat Umineko characters.

LMFAO, are you really gonna argue that Lovecraft's verse which did not even have Multiverses creating new Multiverses (which is one of the newer definitions of Quantum Higher Dimensions BTW) would be superior to far more advanced fictions like Marvel, DC and Umineko?

Lovecraft without all the fanfiction extended author wank is the Star Wars of Multiverse fictions. Sure it might have started off a lot of OG stuff which might have influenced Marvel, DC and Umineko to make powerful characters until Beyonder radically pioneered it when he stomped multiple Infinite-Dimensional beings at the same time, but its dead corpse is being paraded around to baseless easily debunkable wank in its original forms.

The only reason Azathoth is relevant in this thread is because this forum's mods regard it as an Omnipotent being which makes any level of Cosmology tiering irrelevant.

True infnite multiverse doesn't need to create another multiverses since it's already infnite and has all space-time continuums already. The only reason Marvel multiverse works like that is because it's not true infinite, which is supported by Chaos King destroying ~90% of the multliverse, you can't destroy 90% of infinity as you know. DC comsology is an inconsistent mess with every author having their own little beliefs but it's not true infnite aswell since it's all inside Primal Monitor. Can't speak about Umineko.

You can't be serious. How can an unproven theory be foundation for anything? And who exacly decided that? You, me, vs wiki? Like I said those theries hold no weight, the foundation is always in the fictional work itself, not in made up science theory.

Wut? This has nothing to do with TOAA, it's about you using made up science theories as a basis for how every fictional work should work lol

It's the foundation for the writers of Marvel, DC and Umineko and many fictions that use Dimensional tiering who refer to Quantum Mechanics who uses unproven Quantum Mechanic interpretations. You are the annoying one trying to defy what is written in a fictional work you hypocritical dum dums.

Glad you finally understand that.

NO, you are the one who did not understand that. Otherwise, you would not be questioning my methods.

No he didn't, after 5th is "(...)and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity." That's what was stated. It doesn't end up at 5th, it's infinite.

Nothing entails Infinite Dimensions. You are reading way too much into the text. This is what it said in the next page.

""""""""""""All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions""""""""""

The Dimensions were FINITE, and the Archetypal Infinity/Eternity is the space outside the dimensions. The Archetypal Infinity was something else and was just infinitely larger than the 5 Dimensions named.

The Archetypal Infinity is NOT the number of dimensions since it is OUTSIDE the dimensions.

No, Yog is Lovecraft entire omniverse which is made from infinite dimensions and space-time continuums while also existing outside of it at the same time.

Existing outside of Space-Time continuums is just an Omnilock feat which means absolutely nothing. There is no damn word "Omniverse" in Lovecraft.

You are making things up at this point.

There is no evidence that Lovecraft's Multiverse is a True Unsurpassable Infinite Multiverse and no such thing exists in fiction. YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE FOR THIS.

Actually the idea that it is a True Infinite Multiverse is non sense since Yog Sothoth is beyond this Multiverse so the idea that it is an Infinite Unsurpassable Multiverse is debunked on panel.

Meanwhile, DC, Marvel and Umineko have Transfinite Multiverses that do create more Infinite Multiverses. Inconsistency is not an issue since you, the OP, never gave a damn rule about how to interpret DC.

So are you going to change the rules in your thread a bit so that you won't lose this debate as bad as you already are? Lmfao.

@gaoron: Here's a better idea Gaoron, how about you stop arguing in your damned thread? Not only that, you are losing and making up fanfiction arguments around. Not me.

Omniverse in Lovecraft? The wank is real.

How do Filipinos say it? Wank pa more!!!!!!!

This is embarrassing really, I'll take a screenshot of it and plaster it so that debaters with competent minds can learn to avoid you. Since you're SOOOO dimensions above me in debating.

@sungsam: He's a DB wanker that I have to deal with all the time, so this isn't surprising.

Here's the thing everyone.

There is no such thing as a True Infinite Multiverse in fiction. NO SUCH THING.

Okay? It's illogical to think there would be. Umineko, Marvel or DC don't have it.

If such a thing existed, it couldn't even be destroyed by Featherine or Beyonder since its durability and quality would be infinite as well and indestructible by all means, not just its number. The Multiverse would be so powerful, it would generate new possibilities of creating Featherine and Beyonders inside it. But that is bullcrap and never happens.

The only TRUE INFINITE thing that can exist in fiction are Omnipotents. Not Multiverses. What we have in fiction, are Transfinitely numbered Multiverses of Higher Dimensions if you talk about newer fictions that use Quantum Mechanics because they can be destroyed and depleted. With a Transfinite Number of possibilities.

The only way to get a True Infinite Multiverse is if you make an Omnipotent Character in your own novel and made him the embodiment of that Multiverse. Basically making an Omnipotent Multiverse. Unfortunately, Multiverses often get destroyed by just Nigh-Omnipotent characters. So this is not true.

And if you don't agree that Omnipotents can exist in fiction, that means you don't agree with the concept of True Infinity. Either way, people have to stop using "True Infinity" when describing the Multiverse because guess what, it isn't. We are still yet to find a True Infinite Multiverse.

Only Surpassable Infinities also known as Transfinite numbers of Multiverses creating new possibilities with a limited number of variables exist in some of the new fictions accounting for every Higher Dimension. That is all.

@sungsam: so in other words everything is limited we just dont know the exact number yet right ?

Stops at 7. Presence I would say has better on panel feats to be honest.

No, I'm saying that a lot of the Infinite Multiverses we see in fiction are just Transfinite. Which is not the same as being True Infinity.

@sungsam: Then what would true infinity be? A metaverse?

@sungsam: oh ok

@gaoron: "The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity."

That does not imply infinite-D. Archetypal infinity refers to infinities being higher than others, not that there are infinite dimensions. There are five confirmed dimensions that are explicitly stated as finite. The highest place in this Archetypal infinity is merely beyond the space-time of a 5-D multiverse, meaning he is merely baseline megaversal. The "dizzy and reachless heights" is merely where the beings outside of space-time exist, which is merely 6-D in this case.

"The space-time globule which we recognize as the totality of all cosmic entity is only an atom in the genuine infinity which is theirs.

Space-time continuum =/= layered/archetypal infinite dimensions; infinite space-time continuums can equate to a baseline infinite multiverse in some cases even.

That's the most ignorant statement you have made in this thread... right after basing every fictional cosmology on made up science theory that is. Right now I can pick up a piece of paper and write an infnite dimenional infnite multiverse and boom it exists lol

He's referring to true infinity/omnipotent infinity multiverses.

Transfinity can't create infnity, it's either infinite or transfinite.

Transfinite can be used in many different context; in this case, creating infinity, but not true/omnipotent infinity.

Flagged for insults. If you have nothing of value to add then don't. We have no need for cheerleaders. Go back to creating alts making DB missmtaches and crying how it's wanked.

@sungsam said:

@gaoron: Here's a better idea Gaoron, how about you stop arguing in your damned thread?

Nowhere in the rules says I can't debate in my own thread as long as I don't have a winner in mind. And like I said this has nothing to do with TOAA or the gauntlet, all we are doing is debating cosmologies of fictional universes.

Not only that, you are losing and making up fanfiction arguments around. Not me.

I'm not the one applying science theories to every fictional universe as a "foundation" :/

Omniverse in Lovecraft? The wank is real.

How do Filipinos say it? Wank pa more!!!!!!!

If wanking to you is stating facts and proving them with quotes then yeah...

This is embarrassing really,

What's embarrasing is applying unproven science theories to fictional universes or making ignorant statements about how fictional authors can't write an infnite verse. I'm sorry your "competent" mind can't grasp an idea of authors ignoring your quantum theories.

I'll take a screenshot of it and plaster it so that debaters with competent minds can learn to avoid you. Since you're SOOOO dimensions above me in debating.

@gaoron: Flagged for insults. If you have nothing of value to add then don't. We have no need for cheerleaders. Go back to creating alts making DB missmtaches and crying how it's wanked.

Describing what you do is not an insult. You wank characters, which is objectively classified as a wanker in fictional debating standards. It is a term, not an insult. I've used the word wanker in front of mods and they didn't care in the slightest.

Also banning on Vine doesn't stop anyone from making new accounts with proxies; it's highly useless.

"Oooh, u put a provoking picture towards Sungsam! FLAGGED!" (I didn't flag; I'm just demonstrating your type of logic.)

Now stop hiding behind flags (which will get you nowhere with me) and actually reply with real counterarguments.

-infnite dimensions

Already debunked that in my previous post. next.

-infinite space-time continuums

There is no word "Infinite Space Time Continuums" only that the Space Time Continuum is an atom to a higher world. Next.

ight now I can pick up a piece of paper and write an infnite dimenional infnite multiverse and boom it exists lol

So you are saying that you can create things in real life by writing it? God, you are really a special child.

That's the whole point and beauty of Lovecraft mythos. Writing stuff that doesn't make sense from human perspective. Doesn't change the fact Yoh was written like that, a being that is above infnite dimensions and space-time continuums while also simultaneously being that reality in itself.

No, the Archetypal Infinity was outside the dimensions. So the Archetype did not refer to the number of dimensions, it was just infinitely larger than 5-Dimensions. Nothing more.

Transfinity can't create infnity, it's either infinite or transfinite.

In DC, an Infinite Multiverse creates a new Infinite Multiverse (Metaverse). Can't argue with the scans. It's pretty stupid that you are giving Lovecraft a free pass on paradoxes but DC can't.

Consistency is the most important thing in vs battle debates. For it to work it needs to fit with each other, if author contradicts each others cosmology then of course you can't use it, that's obvious stuff on battle forums.

Unfortunately for you, you used TOAA post-Retcon which in the same story, uses Universes creating new Universes cosmology. So we can use it.

He clears obviously. He still the most powerful being in Marvel obviously.