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Who wins?
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Post retcon was still said to dwarf life bringer galactus in power (said to be able to destroy him with a thought) however with the new origins for the monitors (above 5th dimensional beings like Mxy) and his third wall breaking I’m inclined to think CAS/TR is still vastly stronger than MM
Depends on which version you’re speaking of.
Post SW 1980 MM, when he was retconned (alongside Beyonder) to be nothing more but a cosmic cube being, would lose due to the fact he was no where near the level that the monitors are on based on Morrison’s multiverse map. Even when MM beat the Beyonder
MM post SW 2015 is technically the strongest he’s been since SW 1980 since he is treated as the demiurge of the multiverse after absorbing the Ivory kings Power and was leagues beyond Lifebringer Galan.
Can someone enlighten me how strong CAS really is without any meta crap?
When you refer to the Moleule man that got retconned into a cosmic cube, he is just finite sized universal. TR views a existence plain named Limbo as nothing. Limbo transcend the main DC multiverse, which is a infinite-dimensional multiverse. TR stomps. Even if Molecule is infinite universal, it's still way below TR, since an infinite big universe is the lowest plain in the DC cosmos, which TR transcend. Universes in the DC cosmology are likely atoms. It would do nothing to TR.
MM
The Thought Robot has better feats.
2. Can wipe beings composed of pure thoughts and concepts out of existence.
3. Is stronger than a lesser Monitor who killed The Presence, The Spectre and The Radiant.
5. Wrapped around the entire DC and Vertigo Cosmology to barrier it off from Monitor Mind.
7. Can change his own narrative with meta narrative hacking.
8. Is considered a multi-conceptual entity that represents all the following concepts
9. Can battle other concepts, such as Hyperstory itself and win.
You were provided with a list of superior feats for CaS and still ignored it. Why?
Molecule Man wins easily.
TR has no feats resisting or countering MM's primary ability.
@michaeljulius: I think that most of your arguments are tied to your personal interpretation of the feats and statements.
I'm not saying that in an offensive way.
TR needs to become stronger to beat Mandrakke.
Molecule Man's power is said to be limitless.
I go with Molecule Man all day, everyday.
@michaeljulius: I think that most of your arguments are tied to your personal interpretation of the feats and statements.
I'm not saying that in an offensive way.
TR needs to become stronger to beat Mandrakke.
Molecule Man's power is said to be limitless.
I go with Molecule Man all day, everyday.
VS battles are all just speculation. Everyone has their own interpretation of feats, because it's just speculation.
VS battles are all just speculation. Everyone has their own interpretation of feats, because it's just speculation.
Why are you bringing vsbattles ?
It's not just speculation.
VS battles are all just speculation. Everyone has their own interpretation of feats, because it's just speculation.
Why are you bringing vsbattles ?
It's not just speculation.
Depending on how you view multiversal characters, tiering systems and feats can change from person to person.
So yeah, not everything is ''definetely'', since they are crossover battles.
@yasindermann: I think that the debate is turned away from his initial purpose.
I asked if TR has feats of resisting or countering reality manipulation.
Has he or not ?
You were provided with this information in my post, mate. Its all there.
@yasindermann: I think that the debate is turned away from his initial purpose.
I asked if TR has feats of resisting or countering reality manipulation.
Has he or not ?
@michaeljulius: I think that you are just using the flowery language to turn it a way that fit your narrative.
We saw TR tanking and taking physical damages and not growing abilities to counter it...
He wasn't capable to "heal" for the damages received...
He took damages from the "heat of ten billions suns", Molecule Man can cancel that with his pinkie...
The retcon was only about the fights and status of Beyonder against abstracts...
Other feats are still valid...
"Several billion entire dimensions" is superior to "the heat of ten billions suns".
@theanimal666: Which part of the author telling you these are two concepts fighting on the edge of the physical sentient comic book page that DC is printed on, was confusing? I showed you this same scan in full and you opted to Google Image search for the censored version of it. Here is the actual one that shows he was unaffected, and that they were throwing narratives at each other and nothing physical as you've said it was.
Thoughts?
@michaeljulius: he doesnt like that MM is gettin stomped so he is interpreting the feat as he wants and ignores everything else so MM wins in his head.
@michaeljulius: I think that you are throwing baseless accusations because you have been caught using fallacious arguments.
"Google images" ? Really ?
That's all you've got ?
My scan comes from "final crisis new edition page 152"
It is as valid as your other scan and yes TR took damages beyond repair during the fight. Too bad for the "he can adapat to everything" theory.
Still, you failed to show me TR resisting or countering reality manipulation.
Owen wins easily.
I give users the benefit of the doubt, always. Regardless if its clear they are just posting to get a rise. I always give a chance to respond to me and in this case, its clear that there is no real argument on the opposing side.
It takes a serious level of favoritism to look at this author statement and say "yea, the heat of 10 billion suns absolutely hurt that platonic concept that exists outside of DC Comics entirely. I'm ignoring the 6 + scans that say Physics is a lesser concept and doesn't apply to these characters, as well as them going to their own fictions Retcon and considering that a tiny concept as well. But yes, certainly heat and energy of a sun can surely harm the most powerful version of Superman ever and certainly not make him stronger as it always has in the past........"
Yikes.
@michaeljulius: he doesnt like that MM is gettin stomped so he is interpreting the feat as he wants and ignores everything else so MM wins in his head.
"Several billion entire dimensions" is superior to "the heat of ten billions suns".
The Beyonder was almost killed by Eternity in a surprise attack in the same comic book pages prior.
CaS wrapped itself around the entire Vertigo and DC Infinite Multiverses, which contain infinite Multiverses.
So a billion dimensions is not as much as infinity in dual layered cosmology. CaS wins objectively again.
Infinite Multiverses in there X2 with Vertigo also part of it.
Doesn't matter how the opposition spins it, there is objective proof and factual data to showcase CaS is untouchable.
I don't care what happened to Beyonder.
It's about Molecule Man.
TR isn't untouchable.
You are reaching so badly to avoid the questions I've asked you so I will ask again.
This "Several billion entire dimensions" is superior to "the heat of ten billions suns". is still valid and somehow quantifiable.
Still, you failed to show me TR resisting or countering reality manipulation.
MM stomps, until evidence shows TR able to counteract his abilities. (which he cannot)
I don't care what happened to Beyonder.
It's about Molecule Man.
TR isn't untouchable.
You are reaching so badly to avoid the questions I've asked you so I will ask again.
This "Several billion entire dimensions" is superior to "the heat of ten billions suns". is still valid and somehow quantifiable.
Still, you failed to show me TR resisting or countering reality manipulation.
MM stomps, until evidence shows TR able to counteract his abilities. (which he cannot)
MM was stomped/killed by a reality based attack.
Heat Energy attack can killed Molecule Man. end of discussion.
@etriel: That's not the point and Molecule Man was repairing the reality when he was attacked.
Show TR doing a reality-based attack.
Show TR countering a reality-based attack.
Heyyo there , I'm a fellow lurker here , just made an account to point out that your sense of logic here is very shoddy.
I don't care what happened to Beyonder.
It's about Molecule Man.
TR isn't untouchable.
Except he is , at least for MM standards. MM doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can remotely hurt TR. He exists beyond physics , and MM is nothing but fiction to him. You can't point out someone like Mandrakk hurting him and saying that he can be hurt. He is a body of pure thought , what can MM do against him exactly ?
You are reaching so badly to avoid the questions I've asked you so I will ask again.
This "Several billion entire dimensions" is superior to "the heat of ten billions suns". is still valid and somehow quantifiable.
Yes , obviously dimensions > suns. But the point here is none of that bullshit ever happened . TR was never hurt by the power of ten billion suns , he has a body of pure thought which cannot be hurt by anything in the multiverse , except for narratives , which are beyond the scope of any regular character. Anyone who has read Final Crisis can tell you this , and so the guy above provided you with many scans to back up his statements , but you ignore them. You're the one actually playing the ignorant guy here.
Still, you failed to show me TR resisting or countering reality manipulation.
No need to resist , he cannot be harmed by it at all. He is immune to it. He is above such concepts.
MM stomps, until evidence shows TR able to counteract his abilities. (which he cannot)
No he doesn't , TR exists on a higher realm of existence than MM and can erase his narrative as easily as flicking a finger ,and MM can't do shit. Thing to note is MM doesn't have anything that can even garner the attention of TR.
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