(PoD) Darth Bane VS Darth Malgus

The Darth Malgus who attacked the Jedi Temple VS Darth Bane (PoD)

Round 1 - Force

Round 2 - Duel

Round 3 - All out

@lord_tenebrous @wolfrazer

Malgus every time.

Malgus butchers

@mossbeard: Any reasons, I'm more impressed by Banes showings against Kasim than I am of Malguses against those masters

Bane blitzes

Probably Malgus in a very good fight

@azureamaterasu:

IMO, I think even DoE Bane would be hardpressed to overcome Kas'im in a duel. In PoD, Bane didn't do too well. First off, he barely held off Kas'im's first attack, which was only brief in duration:

"Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve... just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas’im’s true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able. His opponent grunted in surprise when Bane warded him off, then stepped back to regroup."

-- Path of Destruction

And we know that even then, Kas'im was holding back. He attacked Bane with the level of skill he'd expected to quickly kill the previous Bane he last fought. He didn't know that Bane was stronger than he was before and was surprised:

"He’d come in hard and fast, expecting to end their battle quickly. Now he had to reevaluate his strategy. 'You’re better than you were when we last fought,' he said, clearly impressed and making no attempt to hide it."

-- Path of Destruction

Next up, when Kas'im attacks again -- presumably this time going all-out -- he practically stomps Bane, who muses that if he actually tried to defend himself with his skill, he'd be dead. Instead, Bane taps into his full potential, giving himself over to the Force completely in a sort of oneness moment, and allows it to fight for him, in essence turning on the auto-pilot:

"Kas’im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek’s unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense. Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential."

-- Path of Destruction

Only at this point does Kas'im lose the upper hand. He gets driven back and back, eventually getting pushed to desperation:

"He drove Kas’im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber. Kas’im flipped back and out through the door into the hall beyond, but Bane was relentless in his pursuit, leaping forward and coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the Twilek’s leg. His strike was turned aside at the last second, but he quickly followed it up with another series of powerful thrusts and stabs. The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane’s onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage... The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life."

-- Path of Destruction

However, in light of the aforementioned context, this isn't a legitimate skill showing. This is further confirmed when it's flat-out stated that Bane's strength in the Force is what is causing him to win:

"The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force."

-- Path of Destruction

Plus, and in the fact that Bane also sported two other advantages in that fight. He knew the layout of the Temple and was using this to aid him. And, he also knew everything about Kas'im's fighting style:

"But he didn’t know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway... One hope gave him the strength to persevere in the face of overwhelming odds; one advantage the Blademaster had lacked during his own retreat. He knew the layout of the Temple, and he was able to work himself slowly toward the exit."

-- Path of Destruction

"Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas’im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all."

-- Path of Destruction

Despite all this, the moment Kas'im gains his own circumstantial advantage(Bane's lack of knowledge on Jar'Kai), Bane immediately begins losing again:

"There was less than five meters between them, but it was just enough space for Kas’im to give the hilt of his lightsaber a quick twist. The long handle separated in the middle, and suddenly he was armed not with one double-bladed lightsaber, but with a pair of single blades, one in each hand. Bane hesitated. Few of the students at the Academy had even attempted to use two sabers at once. The Blademaster had always discouraged them from this variation of the fourth form, saying it was inherently flawed. Now, as he saw the cruel and cunning expression on his enemy’s face, Bane understood the real truth. The battle was rejoined, but now it was Bane who was in full retreat. Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style. His mind was flooded with a million options of what his opponent might attempt, and he had no experience to draw on to eliminate any of them. Overwhelmed, he staggered back, floundering with the desperation of a drowning man."

-- Path of Destruction

Kas'im having a single advantage is enough to completely turn the tables and significantly outweigh Bane's massive amp, his environmental edge, and his fighting style advantage. Bane is being immediately overwhelmed and is immediately is flung into desperation. Not to mention, Kas'im is flat-out stated to outclass Bane at this point:

"Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn’t win. Kas’im had trained his entire life for this moment."

-- Path of Destruction

Bane then goes own to muse that Kas'im is quite possibly the greatest duelist the galaxy has ever seen:

"After years of study, he’d mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he’d honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him."

-- Path of Destruction

So from this duel, we gather that:

- a holding-back Kas'im nearly beats Bane in a short exchange

- An all-out Kas'im would have immediately killed Bane in a duel of skill

- A oneness-amped, full-potential Bane with an environmental and style advantage is able to force Kas'im into a retreat, pushing the latter to desperation

- Kas'im having a single advantage in Jar'Kai is enough to noticeably overpower Bane's several advantages

- Bane realizes in the first few moves that he's going to lose, and is driven to desperation

As of PoD, I think it's fair to say that in terms of lightsaber skill, Kas'im is above Bane by a large margin.

OT:

Malgus wins every time with difficulty.

ROT Bane would beat Malgus, but thats about it

Peak Malgus would walk through pre-prime Bane

@lord_tenebrous:

- a holding-back Kas'im nearly beats Bane in a short exchange

I don't think he was holding back, the passage says we are seeing Kas'im's true ability for the first time. I'm pretty sure he was going all out, hard from the onset, in the attempt to kill Bane quickly. After Bane fended off the initial flurry, Kas'im reevaluated he strategy. I think it has more to do with him expecting the sheer speed of the attack to do him in, then after he realized Bane was fast enough to keep up, he had to take a more measured approach.

- A oneness-amped, full-potential Bane with an environmental and style advantage is able to force Kas'im into a retreat, pushing the latter to desperation.

This isn't a circumstantial amp, it's Bane's regular power. It's stated in the passage he had always been afraid to completely surrender himself to the dark side up to this point. Not only can he call upon this level of power at will, but he's also has grown more powerful still up to DoE, though he might be a little bit slower and less strong due to age and dark side degradation I'm confident DoE Bane can replicate this showing easily.

- Kas'im having a single advantage in Jar'Kai is enough to noticeably overpower Bane's several advantages

RoT Bane has seemingly overcome the Jar'Kai knowledge gap, as demonstrated by his duel with Raskta a duelist on par with Kas'im. I agree Kas'im still a better technical duelist, but Bane can still beat him convincingly even in a pure duel, as the power gap is simply too wide. DoE Bane is an expert at channeling all his rage in a single instance and at will, much like he did in for the first time with Kas'im:

"Blind and immobilized, Darth Bane's fury saved him. Years of training allowed him to focus all his pain and rage in one single instant, drawing on it so he could unleash the full power of the dark side. Once again he felt the Iktotchi's barrier opposing his efforts, but this time he tore through it like it wasn't even there." - DoE

@kilius:

"I don't think he was holding back, the passage says we are seeing Kas'im's true ability for the first time. I'm pretty sure he was going all out, hard from the onset, in the attempt to kill Bane quickly. After Bane fended off the initial flurry, Kas'im reevaluated he strategy. I think it has more to do with him expecting the sheer speed of the attack to do him in, then after he realized Bane was fast enough to keep up, he had to take a more measured approach."

Those are Bane's subjective musings, and he's never seen Kas'im's true ability. All he's recognized is that he's fighting at a higher level than he does in sparring. His conclusions are not concrete. Kas'im was unaware of Bane's improvement, which he made clear. He attacked Bane with the degree of effort he thought would swiftly end him. That failed. It would follow that in his next attack, Kas'im would have adjusted the amount of effort he's exerting to match the threat he thinks Bane poses. And this is supported by the complete change of balance in swordplay. 

When Kas'im is holding back, Bane is able to successfully defend himself(albeit barely, and for a brief amount of time): 

"Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve... just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas’im’s true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able." 

-- Path of Destruction 

By comparison, when Kas'im attacks again, Bane notes that he would be dead if not for turning on the auto-pilot: 

"Kas’im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek’s unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense. Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential."

-- Path of Destruction

I think it's evident in the text that Kas'im was initially holding back. 

"This isn't a circumstantial amp, it's Bane's regular power. It's stated in the passage he had always been afraid to completely surrender himself to the dark side up to this point. Not only can he call upon this level of power at will, but he's also has grown more powerful still up to DoE, though he might be a little bit slower and less strong due to age and dark side degradation I'm confident DoE Bane can replicate this showing easily." 

It isn't his regular power. Dark Siders bend the Force to their will, using their negative emotions to draw from its power. Bane at this point has completely surrendered his will/himself to the Force: 

"Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation." 

-- Path of Destruction  

By all means a oneness amp. Now, onto this: 

"In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side| Blind and immobilized, Darth Bane's fury saved him. Years of training allowed him to focus all his pain and rage in one single instant, drawing on it so he could unleash the full power of the dark side."

-- Path of Destruction/Dynasty of Evil  

Problem with this is, it can't be his regular power, because we know that Dark Siders are always using their negative emotions to fuel their power, 24/7. That's how they tap in to the Dark Side of the Force. And yet, we know that the negative emotions they use can be increased above their base level, giving the provoked user circumstantial power. In both the above instances, Bane is using the full extent of his negative emotions, benefiting from the power granted at their peak level. All of his negative emotions are being drawn from. Which means that at that point, he can't emotionally increase from that level of negative emotion. 

So, what your passages prove are, Bane somehow managed to attain an unequaled command of his emotions that has not been replicated by any other mortal Dark Sider that I know of. Instantly, at will, he can amp himself to the fullest extent accessible via emotional amps. Which only means that an amped DoE Bane could replicate his PoD performance against Kas'im, not that a base DoE Bane can. 

"RoT Bane has seemingly overcome the Jar'Kai knowledge gap, as demonstrated by his duel with Raskta a duelist on par with Kas'im."

The Jar'Kai mention was in regard to the analysis of the PoD text I was conducting. I'm not saying that it would be am advantage in a fight between the two at their primes. I was pointing out how the skill gap was vast enough at that point, that as soon as Kas'im gains his own advantage, it's enough to completely turn the tables and outstrip Bane's oneness amp, environmental knowledge, full potential amp, emotional amp, and Force-autopilot.  

"I agree Kas'im still a better technical duelist, but Bane can still beat him convincingly even in a pure duel, as the power gap is simply too wide" 

If Bane amps himself, yes. Though the degree of effort which he exerts to win debatable. Kas'im was still able to hold his own for a time in PoD, and it's not clear how DoE Bane's saber skill stacks up to PoD Bane's autopilot "skill." 

IMO, a prime, base Bane versus a prime Kas'im would be a close match, but one that Bane would win every time via greater knowledge, physicals, skill, and power.

Malgus shitstomps. It’s not even close. Bane at this point has Revan’s Holocron, the Brotherhood library, and a few others. He’s weak, won’t be able to over come Malgus, who’s above Act III Barsen’thor and HoT together.

@idrisiangraecus:

This is Deceived Malgus, when he lead the Sacking of Coruscant. 10 years before his bout with the HoT.

Also, Bane's knowledge at that point is hardly something insignificant. Having absorbed the entirety of the BoD's knowledge, plus Revan's Holocron, is no small accomplishment.

@lord_tenebrous: My bad, but either way, Malgus at this point is so fast that cameras cannot catch him, he can keep up with Aryn Leneer when she’s bloodlusted, and Aryn perceives hyperspace travel in slow motion.

@lord_tenebrous I'm not familiar with Malguses oneness and other feats but I know that Bane was a natural with the force even early on breaking Lords like Qordis force barrier but more significantly having proficiency with lightning which I couldn't say the same about for Malgus, For the sake of a debate lets accept that they are equals in dueling then Bane would take the edge in force and win through a war of attrition.

@idrisiangraecus:

That's true, but imo that kind of speed should be standard for an above-average Force user. Sith from Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness were able to keep up with speeders in a dead sprint and move at lightspeed. I would argue that Deceived Malgus is more powerful and skilled a fighter than is PoD Bane, but the latter is more knowledgeable a Force user.

@azureamaterasu:

I don't think it was a oneness feat. There might be some quote lying around out there that says otherwise, but from the direct text, it just looks like Malgus applies some focus to save himself:

"Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind. He'd been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he'd failed to properly evaluate the Jedi's power. He'd surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi's eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged."

-- The Third Lesson

I think Malgus is less talented than Bane was, but he's had far more training. Still, PoD Bane was more powerful than Kaan, the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith and a former Jedi Master. Casually stomping Qordis, who is supposed to be among the big 3-4 of the BoD, is no small feat either.

As for lightning, I'm unsure. PoD Bane is more powerful than Kopecz, whose lightning killed a battle meditation-amped Padawan. However, Hope Malgus while injured killed a Jedi Knight with lightning. During the attack on the Temple, he killed 2 Padawans + a Knight with lightning. I think that at this point, Malgus' lightning is more potent.

@lord_tenebrous: The idea that BoD members can go at relativistic speeds is utter horseshit.

@idrisiangraecus:

Through the perspective of a Jedi Padawan, one of Kaan's inferiors moves at lightspeed:

"It was as though a shadow had disengaged itself from the forest and was moving toward her at lightspeed."

-- Darkness Shared

Obviously this is from a subjective point of view, but Jedi are trained since infancy in the ways of the Force and are the most powerful force for good the galaxy has ever known, both according to OOU sources. Plus, this same Sith while not using his full power moves as fast as lightning, which is vastly supersonic:

"Gathering the Force around him, the Marauder ran. Like a stroke of black lightning, he dashed across the clearing and into the depths of the forest..."

-- Darkness Shared

Reality is, trained Force users moving at incredible speeds is par for the course, regardless of the era. Even Padawans have moved faster than the eye can track and can generate after-images.

Malgus probably. Good fight.

@lord_tenebrous Ok fair enough, nice.

Wow. That’s literally bullshitting at AP’s level.

Bane just scales so low there’s no way he can beat anybody from the TOR era that’s decently powerful. He literally scales below Thon. And Vodo.

@azureamaterasu:

Thanks

@idrisiangraecus:

None of that is true.

@lord_tenebrous: The photo for Malgus is Malgus as of the Onslaught expansion.

This Malgus should beat this Bane I imagine

Malgus absolutely crushes him...

POD Bane?

Malgus slaughter him easily

POD Bane would give Malgus a decent fight but he'd win.

How POD Bane win?

@sheevsmacker:

Sorry I could've worded that better, I was trying to say Malgus would win but POD Bane would give him a decent fight. I failed at English there lol

@i_cato_sicarius: ah fair enough

How POD Bane is blitz him ?

@eggman-64:

The OP says Malgus as of the Sacking of Coruscant.

bane is already more powerful, skilled, and masterful with the force than any previous sith by this point. ill take him

@sheevsmacker: Gets pretty cleanly outlined in this thread

Prime Bane would be a better match, this Malgus isn't too far off from FE Malgus, being a more fluid Lightsaber weilder than Bane (Bane was too much "by the book" by comparison), adjusting to the opponent's style and pressing on with his unrelenting offensive in a similar vein to Darth Vader, his form was described as "flawless" by the future Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, and attributed his victory over Malgus to desperation and anger blinding him at the moment rather than inferior skill:

"Malgus's lightsaber form was flawless, but he let his anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through."

The Old Republic, False Emperor Storyline

Malgus has more dueling experience than PoD Bane, a more overpowering physique, and comparable Force Power going by feats and the fact that he is considered one of Sidious' most powerful predecessors along with Prime Bane:

In his quest for domination, Darth Sidious tracked down what remained of five pivotal Sith texts written by his most powerful predecessors.

The Book of Sith

On top of that, his battlefield feats were "never duplicated" not even by Bane:

Malgus submitted utterly to the dark side, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated.

The Book of Sith

He is also shown to have superior pain tolerance and durability, being able to kill some Jedi right after being severely injured by Satele Shan on Alderaan, the injuries that made him a cyborg later on (as detailed in The Third Lesson).

This version of Bane, who struggled a lot with the likes of Kas'im, loses to Malgus.

Prime Bane vs Malgus, though, it's a different thing.

"The likes of Kas'im." Do you know who Kas'im Is?

That is headcanon, pure and simple. Blademaster Kas'im was the deadliest Sith fighter of his era, with a lifetime of mastery under his belt:

Kas’im was a warrior; Kaan knew he chafed at their inactivity. Drills and exercises could not quench his desire for actual combat. At the Academy on Korriban the Blademaster had performed his duty without complaint. But here on Ruusan the promise of battle was too near, too insistent. The scent of blood was always in the air, mingling with the sweat of fear and anticipation. Here Kas’im could be satisfied only once he stood face-to-face with an enemy. Soon his frustration would boil over into rebellion, and Kaan could ill afford to lose the loyalty of the greatest swordsman of his camp.

...

Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn’t win. Kas’im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he’d mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he’d honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.

...

She shook her head. “Bane is more trouble than he’s worth. He’s vulnerable now, but as his confidence returns he’ll become as headstrong as ever. He’ll bring dissension to the ranks. Besides,” she added, “we don’t need him anymore. We’re winning.”

“So how do you propose we deal with him? Assassins?”

She laughed. “If he could handle Kas’im, then I doubt anyone else will stand a chance against him."

~ Path of Destruction

Bane struggling with him is not an anti-feat.

@lord_tenebrous: Good swordsman but not a Match for top tier Sith.

Darth Malgus with cybernetic enhancements can go toe to toe with the hero of tython,so he can easily destroy darth bane who was never near the power of sith lords like darth Tenebrae in his Valkorion form, this last one was defeated by the hero of tython. Malgus ragdoll.

@son_ofthe_force: THE LORD HAS RETURNED