Plutonian vs Red Son Superman

Versus

Rules

1. Strongest Versions for both
2. No prep
3. No knowledge
4. Win by death
5. Battle takes place in a indestructible planet

I'd back Clark.

Superman:

@allstarsuperman@lvenger@dondave@rbt@buttersdaman000@comicstooge@risingbean@frozen@comicace3@pokeysteve@ancient_0f_days@god_spawn@matchesmalone21@theamazingimmortalman@lowlaville@patrat18@zeroplus@thitiki@demonknights@ssj_god@darkseid1006@thor_parker82@sirneko@jgames@ironshinobi88@ghostravage@unbreakable_fs4@the_real_seaman@hollow_point@citizensentry@dygoboy@jucaslucasa@darth_wayne@sly_141@kingcurry30

Irredeemable:

@strider92@esquire@pr0metheus@emperorthanos

Plutonian.

Plutonian probably still has better combat feats compared to Red Sun Superman.

Plutonian IMO.

What are red sons superman's feats?

If you want a superman that stomps plutionian

give him

superman blue

pc superman

superboy prime

superman prime( guardian amp)

superman 1million( kal kent)

superman prime 1 million(hype)

cosmic armour superman

Plutonian atomizes him

There's barely any differnce between red son supes and regular supes. Plotonian wins.

Red Sun Superman isn't that fleshed out combat wise.

stalemate

Plutonian is more impressive

If Red Son is anywhere near Post-Crisis Superman, then Plutonian wins

P takes this

is Plutonian above Post-Crisis Superman?

Definitely. Faster, stronger, more durable and has a partial use of hax with telepathy and telekinesis, although, i don't think either is enough to be a game changer, he's still more physically imposing though.

Red Son Superman needs more feats especially combat wise. The recent arc didn't do anything to clarify that except have him fight gatherer's a bit and arguably not perform worse than Superman and Kong, but that's not very much to go off.

Not debating since it's my thread and I do think he is stronger than regular Superman. But I don't recall him Plutonian having any strength feats that were greater than Supermans. Wasn't his best feat stopping the moons rotation?

He did that by nullifying its inertia. Not strength technically.

@emperorthanos: Withstanding and moving with the weight of an entire solar system on his back is much stronger than anything Superman has accomplished.

any respect thread I can see? because the one here on CV shows no combat speed or anything, nor does it show him being anything near Superman as far as I can see.

Oh I was thinking more in terms of striking strength.

That Picosecond is combat related. He would need to have pico second perceptions to be able to track that signal around to its location.

@emperorthanos:yeah, you're correct about that. Still Superman has done arguably faster things, while still moving his limbs

Like what exactly?

he flew around Apokolips (considering it's size) to free some slaves and and disarm some soldiers, then flew all the way to earth within the span of 5-10 seconds.

Punching so fast where he states "Wally is fast enough to see it coming, but not fast enough to do anything about it", he was also moving so fast that; if he hadn't hesitated he would've been able to grab Wally without him being to do anything to counter him, unfortunately he did hesitate so that part isn't quantifiable but still worth mentioning imo

blitzes an Imperiex probe twice, the probe was fast enough to take out most of the league (including Wally) at once.

he also can accelerate his perception to match Barry's speed, same issue Flash says he can witness events within Attoseconds, to even be close to that speed is impressive.

Can have conversations with Flash and can fly at speeds faster than thought

I can pull out more, I just dont want to turn this into a debate lol

now to be clear Im not saying Superman is faster than flash, I'm just showing that Superman isn't a chump in speed.

@itouchedtheboat:

he flew around Apokolips (considering it's size) to free some slaves and and disarm some soldiers, then flew all the way to earth within the span of 5-10 seconds.

This feat isn't remotely close to actually perceive, multitask and track a signal within a picosecond. I'm talking about 0.001 nanoseconds.

Punching so fast where he states "Wally is fast enough to see it coming, but not fast enough to do anything about it", he was also moving so fast that; if he hadn't hesitated he would've been able to grab Wally without him being to do anything to counter him, unfortunately he did hesitate so that part isn't quantifiable but still worth mentioning imo

That's an extremely low showing for Wally, even more so when Wally and Zoom have moved so fast around the world Superman couldn't even perceive them while fighting and one of Wally's absolute highest feats is his fight with Zoom within a picosecond. Superman tagging or moving too fast for Wally is nothing but a low showing for Wally, when it has been demonstrated several times Superman is no longer on Flash's ballpark as far as speed goes.

blitzes an Imperiex probe twice, the probe was fast enough to take out most of the league (including Wally) at once.

Doesn't mean he did it in a picosecond. You have no base to claim this is faster than Plutonian besides assuming Flash ALWAYS operates between picoseconds, which is flat out wrong.

he also can accelerate his perception to match Barry's speed, same issue Flash says he can witness events within Attoseconds, to even be close to that speed is impressive.

Barry made a statement, not that he actually perceived things between attoseconds, specially since there's absolutely no proof Barry was perceiving that fast when Superman accelerated his perception. Again, you're assuming Flashes are always that ridiculously fast.

Can have conversations with Flash and can fly at speeds faster than thought

None of these things are faster than a picosecond, specially since Flashes aren't always perceiving nor moving between picoseconds. Speed of thought is hyperbole, not to mention thought doesn't have an actual speed and information transfer between brain synapses is nothing but slow when compared with this rather short time spans.

I can pull out more, I just dont want to turn this into a debate lol

I'm positive you won't find a single legit picosecond feat for Superman. He barely has nanosecond ones and 2 of them are flat out statements with no confirmation he can actually do that. Then again, it is faulty to assume a character operates at the best of his capabilities all the time, just for the sake of making Superman something he surely is not.

@ghostravage:

even more so when Wally and Zoom have moved so fast around the world Superman couldn't even perceive them while fighting

Wally was amped.

Also I think the picosecond comment was in regards to the length of the transmission.

@highaccuser:

Wally was amped.

You mean by Jesse Quick? I thought that happened after they circumnavigated the planet while fighting.

Also I think the picosecond comment was in regards to the length of the transmission.

Yes. He outrace it.

@ghostravage: How many Nanoseconds feats does Superman has, 3-4 right?

@gamingod: I didn't realize superman blue was so powerful to be listed among the others you listed... Is he??

@thekinfing: Yeah. IIRC only 2 of them are somehow provable, maybe @lvenger can confirm this.

EDIT: I just went over the feat you're referring to, perhaps you can explain to me what exactly is going on, perhaps I interpreted it wrong. it doesnt seem all that impressive.

I'm assuming when Clark walked around freely when time was frozen to a time span of a fraction of a nanosecond and when Clark saved the anti-matter baby?

@ghostravage:

You mean by Jesse Quick? I thought that happened after they circumnavigated the planet while fighting.

No. Jesse was the only reason Wally could even have a fight with him.

Yes. He outrace it.

Which is just a light speed feat still. The length of the transmission doesn't affect its travel speed.

Yeah those are the two which can be confirmed as nanosecond reaction time.

@highaccuser:

Which is just a light speed feat still. The length of the transmission doesn't affect its travel speed.

No.

• 1 picosecond – time taken by light in a vacuum to travel approximately 0.30 mm

That's the distance light travels in a picosecond, it would be impossible for Plutonian to move faster than a signal that only lasts 1 picosecond in traveling from orbit to a base underground on Earth if the feat was just lightspeed. The feat is clearly showcasing an absurd level of speed. Regardless, you're confusing transmission length with transmission time, the latter being the one flat out mentioned in the feat.

No. Jesse was the only reason Wally could even have a fight with him.

Fair enough.

@ghostravage:

I'm positive you won't find a single legit picosecond feat for Superman.

I know this was 3 months ago, but I feel the need to point something out to you. The fact that Superman can fly (on repeated occasions) faster than light means those are legit feats for Superman that put him beyond picosecond speed. Which means not only is he capable of picosecond speeds, he's faster than picosecond speed when flying. Then there's the fact that Superman HAS displayed picosecond speed:

It's been established that Metropolis is somewhere on the East Coast and I even have a scan on where it is if you want it. It's hundreds of miles south of New York. Now I did the calculations here. In the scan above, we clearly see Superman is on Mt. Everest while speaking with Cat Grant. Then he travels all the way to Mt. Everest to Metropolis in an instant. From Mt. Everest to New York, that is approximately 7,535.32 miles. Compared to the Plutonian's picosecond feat, he did his with a distance of roughly 50 miles. With the scans above, I not only proving Superman has a legit feat, I'm also proving he's also faster than the Plutonian. Mostly because I am sick and tired of always hearing that the Plutonian is faster than Superman when he is clearly not. Superman has many feats (some of them FTL) that put him way beyond the Plutonian's flight speed. Even on foot, Superman is faster whereas the Plutonian has ZERO speed feats while on foot.

But let me guess what your going to do with this feat I just showed you. Your going to come up with some excuse to dismiss it just as all Plutonian fans do when shown a legit Superman feat that proves he's faster than the Plutonian. You can dismiss it all you want, Superman did it and it happened and no matter how hard you try and dismiss Superman's legit feats, they happened. Superman has many, many, many speed feets, both on foot and while in flight while the Plutonian doesn't have all that many and I have yet to see one Plutonian fan giving me any flight feat beyond the one they keep showing (which is him flying at a picosecond). Sorry, but I'll go with the guy who actually has more feats and has shown to be a lot faster.

I rest my case.

Tony atomizes RS Superman.

@knight101: Not saying who wins. But being FTl puts you at nanosecond speeds. Picoseconds speed is much faster. The scan you posted is a travel speed feat and not even FTL. Superman does have FTL feats in travel speed before. And a couple of Nanosecond combat speed showings. But none on picoseconds in terms of combat.

@knight101:

I know this was 3 months ago, but I feel the need to point something out to you. The fact that Superman can fly (on repeated occasions) faster than light means those are legit feats for Superman that put him beyond picosecond speed. Which means not only is he capable of picosecond speeds, he's faster than picosecond speed when flying. Then there's the fact that Superman HAS displayed picosecond speed:

Light moves 0.33mm per picosecond... Moving slightly or even 700 times faster than that isn't even remotely close to the speed Plutonian achieved in his feat. You're talking out of your ass right now and i sincerely fail to see what you get from spouting bullshit about a 3 month old post that apparently, has yet to be debunked.

Here we go... I knew fan made calculations would take place.

It's been established that Metropolis is somewhere on the East Coast and I even have a scan on where it is if you want it. It's hundreds of miles south of New York. Now I did the calculations here. In the scan above, we clearly see Superman is on Mt. Everest while speaking with Cat Grant. Then he travels all the way to Mt. Everest to Metropolis in an instant. From Mt. Everest to New York, that is approximately 7,535.32 miles. Compared to the Plutonian's picosecond feat, he did his with a distance of roughly 50 miles. With the scans above, I not only proving Superman has a legit feat, I'm also proving he's also faster than the Plutonian. Mostly because I am sick and tired of always hearing that the Plutonian is faster than Superman when he is clearly not. Superman has many feats (some of them FTL) that put him way beyond the Plutonian's flight speed. Even on foot, Superman is faster whereas the Plutonian has ZERO speed feats while on foot.

Superman arrived to Louis Lane while they were having a conversation whereas light itself can go around the globe 7.5 times in a single second. Your fan made calculations are absurdly wrong and honestly, flat out embarrassing. There's nothing remotely close to picosecond there and i don't even know from where you got the 50 miles distance, because even the lowest orbiting satellites are about 700 miles into orbit.

But let me guess what your going to do with this feat I just showed you. Your going to come up with some excuse to dismiss it just as all Plutonian fans do when shown a legit Superman feat that proves he's faster than the Plutonian. You can dismiss it all you want, Superman did it and it happened and no matter how hard you try and dismiss Superman's legit feats, they happened. Superman has many, many, many speed feets, both on foot and while in flight while the Plutonian doesn't have all that many and I have yet to see one Plutonian fan giving me any flight feat beyond the one they keep showing (which is him flying at a picosecond). Sorry, but I'll go with the guy who actually has more feats and has shown to be a lot faster.

Get out of my face with this silly attempt to make noise.

I rest my case.

Please do... Forever.

@emperorthanos: I wasn't trying to prove he has picosecond combat speed. If you had read my post, you'd have noticed I pointed out that Superman has picosecond flight speed. He has proven this numerous times.

@ghostravage: See? Told ya that you would dismiss the scans I provided with some excuse. This isn't about how fast light travels, this is weather Superman is faster than the Plutonian. Superman arrived behind Lois from Mt. Everest in an INSTANT. That's Picosecond speed man. But fine, whatever. Believe something that isn't true with your own fan made calculations and deny the facts all you want. I'll believe the truth. Oh, and another thing. It's not fan made calcuations if it's in the scan or did you even look at the scan? And I'll stop making noise when you do. Fact of the matter is, Superman has proven on NUMEROUS occasions he has picosecond flight speed. But you would know this if you actually to read his titles. Oh, and 50 miles or 700 miles, doesn't matter. Superman covered over 7,000 miles in an instant whereas Plutonian covered much less. Superman is faster and this scan proves it. Consider this question on who is faster officially debunked. ;-)

And I see very plainly you cannot have a debate with someone you disagree with without being a dick. Do you debate with everyone this way or is it just me? If how I said things wasn't any better, if I also acted like a total dick, then I apologize. If I came on too strongly or phrased things the wrong way, then, again, I apologize. I didn't mean to offend you or put you in defensive mode. Either way, if you cannot reign in that attitude problem, then we're both better of simply to agree to disagree, drop it and move on.

@knight101:

See? Told ya that you would dismiss the scans I provided with some excuse. Superman arrived behind Lois from Mt. Everest in an INSTANT. That's Picosecond speed man. But fine, whatever. Believe something that isn't true with your own fan made calculations and deny the facts all you want. I'll believe the truth. Oh, and another thing. It's not fan made calcuations if it's in the scan or did you even look at the scan? And I'll stop making noise when you do. Fact of the matter is, Superman has proven on NUMEROUS occasions he has picosecond flight speed. But you would know this if you actually to read his titles.

Of course i'm going to dismiss it. I already told you light can circumnavigate the whole freaking planet, that's 40,075 kilometers, 7 freaking times, in a single second. Whether it was an instant or not, Lightspeed is beyond the speed you showcased in the scans. On the other hand, the same light can only move a total of 0.33 millimeters in a span of a picosecond, that means light will need to move 40,075,000,000,000,000 times faster to cover the planet in a picosecond... Do you understand just how ridiculously fast that is and in comparison, how painfully unimpressive the feat you posted is? You're not proving anything remotely impressive here, let alone disproving the fact Superman doesn't have any picosecond reaction, movement nor flying speed feat whatsoever.

I don't think you're looking at the facts the right way. It's just a matter of simple perspective to realize how meaningless is covering 7500 miles in an instant when light as it is can cover 6 times that distance faster... 7 freaking times. I don't know why you're still missing this. This is beyond me. Regardless, i'm going to assume you're new here if you're attacking me with the "You don't know Superman because you haven't read about him" type of comebacks and Ad Hominem. Superman is one of my favorite characters and i've argued for him more times than not... Take your time and instead of making numbers and calculations out in your head, go find my debates representing Superman, both Pre-52 and New-52.

And I see very plainly you cannot have a debate with someone you disagree with without being a dick. Do you debate with everyone this way or is it just me? If how I said things wasn't any better, if I also acted like a total dick, then I apologize. If I came on too strongly or phrased things the wrong way, then, again, I apologize. I didn't mean to offend you or put you in defensive mode. Either way, if you cannot reign in that attitude problem, then we're both better of simply to agree to disagree, drop it and move on.

You didn't JUSTdisagreed. You were completely fine up to the last paragraph when you "foresaw" what i was going to do, threw me in the same bucket where irrational people lies and claimed i was going to dismiss your scan out of bias. You, whether or not wanted to, attacked me and i simply answered in the same tone as you did. Instead of assuming i'm going to argue from a biased perspective... Look at what i'm stating and base yourself over that. I'm a big Superman fan, i'm also a big Plutonian fan, fact remains Plutonian is simply more impressive than Superman in most relevant areas, therefore, Superman loses to him. Hell, who do you consider a proper Superman debater here? Lvenger? Go ahead and ask him if i'm actually against Superman or if argue against or towards him without taking into account his advantages...

@ghostravage: So, the Plutonian covers roughly 700 miles to destroy a satellite in the span of a picosecond and then I show you a scan of Superman instantly covering over 7,000 miles in an instant and that's not enough to convince you? Huh. Interesting. I'll let the evidence speak for itself then. I could argue the point you made but since we're going in circles here, I'll simply say this: I also read Irredeemable, mostly because of Mark Waid. And I found the exact opposite of what you found. Nothing in that series convinces me that the Plutonian is more powerful than Superman. Not one thing. I've seen all the scans the Plutonian fans keep throwing, I've compared his feats to Superman's own and frankly, Superman's are better. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

And now that you've specifically stated what I did wrong (attacking you, assuming your biased, etc), then I apologize. You didn't deserve that. Regardless if you forgive me or not, I think we're done here. There really is nothing more to say to each other.

@knight101: but the feat you presented isn't a picosecond feat is what I am saying. I'm not saying he doesn't have picosecond flight speed. But you haven't presented any feats for him to be.

@knight101:

So, the Plutonian covers roughly 700 miles to destroy a satellite in the span of a picosecond and then I show you a scan of Superman instantly covering over 7,000 miles in an instant and that's not enough to convince you?

Of course is not enough. You're using an undetermined span of time and labeling it as an "instant". An instant could be anything going from a second to a millisecond, to a microsecond and then some more. What you don't seem to be grasping is the fact LIGHT... As in light itself or any electromagnetic wave, can travel a distance 6 times greater than the one Superman travelled, 7.5 freaking times, in a span of a second... That means light can travel a distance 6 times greater than Superman's distance in 0.14 seconds.... That means light, nothing faster, nothing slower, just light... Can cover the distance Superman covered in an "instant" in 0.02 seconds. THAT TIME SPAN CAN BE CONSIDERED A FREAKING INSTANT yet it is still horrendously underneath a picosecond... 0.02 seconds are literally 20,000,000,000 picoseconds, that means light, nothing faster, nothing slower... Just light... Must be that amount of times faster to cover the distance Superman covered in a picosecond. Again... It's just a matter of perspective... Light can circumnavigate the whole freaking planet 7 times in a single second yet can only move 0.33 millimeters in a single picosecond. My god.

Huh. Interesting. I'll let the evidence speak for itself then.

Evidence? You have no evidence! You're basing yourself over a blatantly subjective parameter that an "instant" means a picosecond when the common description of what an instant is can be attributed to anything within a short period of time, like a simple second. By all means, your evidence is mute.

I could argue the point you made but since we're going in circles here, I'll simply say this: I also read Irredeemable, mostly because of Mark Waid. And I found the exact opposite of what you found. Nothing in that series convinces me that the Plutonian is more powerful than Superman. Not one thing.

I'm actually intrigued about what on Earth will you argue against flat out numbers. Is not rocket science and numbers can't lie nor people can't take 2+2 = 4 and interpret it differently. It's just what it is. Good, you read Irredeemable and you didn't find ANYTHING showing Plutonian is above Superman? Jesus effing Christ... Tanking attacks that were literally so powerfully charged they were instantly snuffing stars in different star systems across the galaxy, having the weight of an entire solar system being dropped on him and barely feeling it, moving in a picosecond, telepathy and basically willing himself powers didn't show any ANYTHING REMOTELY CLOSE to say, "Hey, he might be too much for Superman"... I'm sorry, but you're purposely ignoring evidence now.

I've seen all the scans the Plutonian fans keep throwing, I've compared his feats to Superman's own and frankly, Superman's are better. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Yes, we can agree to disagree. That doesn't mean your stance here is not utterly ridiculous and lacks coherence and factual evidence to support your case.

And now that you've specifically stated what I did wrong (attacking you, assuming your biased, etc), then I apologize. You didn't deserve that. Regardless if you forgive me or not, I think we're done here. There really is nothing more to say to each other.

I shrug off those approaches, i've been in way too many debates with people full of underserved bravado when addressing me, i am, in every essence of the concept, the complete opposite of a thin-skin. Either way, i agree... We're done here, this argument is proving to be way more stressful than it should as i cannot conceive a logical, sound and understandable reason WHY would you keep pushing that average feat here and sell it as a picosecond. I mean, the only thing i can think of is the fact you're oblivious to the measurement of an actual picosecond. No hard feelings.