Plo Koon and Kit Fisto vs Darth Tenebrous and Darth Vader

  • 100 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
Avatar image for masterjohn
MasterJohn

2663

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#1  Edited By MasterJohn
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Scenario: Kit Fisto and Plo Koon are sent to investagate sightings of dark figures on Naboo. As they reach theed, they are confronted by 2 sith. It then erupts in Battle.

No prep, random encounter.

Morals off, bloodlust off.

Battle ends in death.

Who wins?

Avatar image for drache64
Drache64

1234

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#2  Edited By Drache64

I researched Tenebrous and the entries seemed pretty vague.  I'm curious why you chose him in this fight as he seemed to be short lived and didn't accomplish mush besides almost destroying the sith by plotting to kill his apprentice and leave them both dead. at any rate I would give this fight to the Sith mainly due to Vader, though I expect vader to kill tenebrous when the fight is over... or maybe when it's mostly in his favour. Kit is the second strongest here but he has a hard time in one on one battles as seen in his fight with asaji ventress. Kit also liked to find weak spots in his opponents guard and exploit them but Vader is accustomed to leaving himself vulnerable just to them strike a killing blow. mostly due to the cartosis in his armor and his robotic apendages. 
 
to sum up: sith win... then vader wins.

Avatar image for masterjohn
MasterJohn

2663

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#3  Edited By MasterJohn

@Drache64 said:

I researched Tenebrous and the entries seemed pretty vague. I'm curious why you chose him in this fight as he seemed to be short lived and didn't accomplish mush besides almost destroying the sith by plotting to kill his apprentice and leave them both dead. at any rate I would give this fight to the Sith mainly due to Vader, though I expect vader to kill tenebrous when the fight is over... or maybe when it's mostly in his favour. Kit is the second strongest here but he has a hard time in one on one battles as seen in his fight with asaji ventress. Kit also liked to find weak spots in his opponents guard and exploit them but Vader is accustomed to leaving himself vulnerable just to them strike a killing blow. mostly due to the cartosis in his armor and his robotic apendages. to sum up: sith win... then vader wins.

I thought this would be a good battle.

Avatar image for drache64
Drache64

1234

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#4  Edited By Drache64

dont get me wrong. it is a good fight. and i could see why people would think its close when you see kit fisto in action, he's awesome... and smiley. but when you examine the meat and potatoes, vader has this.

Avatar image for masterjohn
MasterJohn

2663

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#5  Edited By MasterJohn

Bump.

Avatar image for sithlord_1
sithlord_1

10

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6  Edited By sithlord_1

tbh this would be the likely outcome... vader lines up with tenebrous then kills him and then goes on to own kit fisto and plo koon on his own

Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

6647

Forum Posts

1944

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 76

#7  Edited By shroudofsorrow

Since Tenebrous has since been confirmed to be powerful in his own right I'd say either Sith can solo. Together they definitely win.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#8  Edited By Silver2467

No one is soloing, and I hope the drivel about Vader killing off Tenebrous before fighting the other two needs no thorough refutation. 
 
The Sith win just about every time. Vader is more skilled than either on the Jedi team, especially Plo, and he and Tenebrous both are more powerful than either of them are as well.

Avatar image for imboredletsdebate
ImBoredLetsDebate

617

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#9  Edited By ImBoredLetsDebate

Can't quote in this browser (ie ftw), but "Post by Silver2467 No one is soloing, and I hope the drivel about Vader killing off Tenebrous before fighting the other two needs no thorough refutation. The Sith win just about every time. Vader is more skilled than either on the Jedi team, especially Plo, and he and Tenebrous both are more powerful than either of them are as well. " If by "no one is soloing" you mean no one is soloing because it is 2v2, then you would be correct. However, if you mean no one is soloing as in Darth Vader could not kill, and pretty easily, Plo and Kit 2v1, then you would be wrong imo.

Avatar image for zackattack529
zackattack529

1408

Forum Posts

73

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#10  Edited By zackattack529

Team 1 has the better team. There dynamic in combat would obviously be better and well thought out strategies.

Team 2 sucks but they have darth vader and when Vader is on his A-Game he is BeastMode. and the extra sith will likely cause many problems. Even if he is a weaker sith than Vader a Sith requires strong amounts of force energy. and there light saber fighting style is better. but that is not the case here. since Vader doesn't use they typical Sith fighting style he much rather prefers using his Over powered force abilities.

Hmm...IM still going to say team 1. All Jedi usually work in team they have the experience to take down a sith. Darth Vader is going to be so difficult either Plo koon or Fisto might die in the process. But ..yaa Team 1 FTW.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11  Edited By Silver2467
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
However, if you mean no one is soloing as in Darth Vader could not kill, and pretty easily, Plo and Kit 2v1, then you would be wrong imo.
I suggest you actually read material about Fisto and Koon before passing judgment on the outcome. Vader is not beating both at once. 
 
@zackattack529 said:

Team 1 has the better team. There dynamic in combat would obviously be better and well thought out strategies.

Team 2 sucks

Nonsense. Tenebrous can analyze and outmatch any strategy Team 1 can develop. His calculating intellect far surpasses theirs; he is so analytically astute in fact that he can predict the future by mathematical calculation. Tactical ability is not in Team 1's favor. 
 

and the extra sith will likely cause many problems. Even if he is a weaker sith than Vader a Sith requires strong amounts of force energy.

Tenebrous is not weaker than Vader. If anything, he is more powerful considering his status in the Banite line. His speed feats outstrip Vader's, and Kit's and Koon's for that matter. His overall showings such as creating Force Shields that repelled explosions powerful enough to sunder mines and telekinetically supporting collapsing cave ceilings, both accomplished with only moderate effort, rival Vader's showings with maximum effort. 
 

but that is not the case here. since Vader doesn't use they typical Sith fighting style he much rather prefers using his Over powered force abilities.

Vader is a better fighter than Fisto and especially Plo. Neither one of them have the combat feats to equal Vader's. 
 

they have the experience to take down a sith.

LOL. They do? Neither Fisto nor Koon have ever fought a Sith, except for when Fisto lost against Sidious. What experience exactly do they have in taking down Sith? And how is that even relevant? If Fisto and Koon's bladework and Force abilties are inferior, then they lose. Their experience is inconsequential, especially when considering the fact that Vader has far more experience fighting Jedi. 
 
Sith team still wins.
Avatar image for zackattack529
zackattack529

1408

Forum Posts

73

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#12  Edited By zackattack529

@Silver2467: You became irrelevant when you said that dumb looking sith was stronger than Vader lmao

and also how do you know that Kit and Plo have never fought a sith? just because they didn't show it in the movies doesn't mean they havn't fought Siths. Siths are they're specialties.

Also in epidsode 3 that was PIS that Sidious so easily killed Fisto. it almost made my head explode. Lucas obviously did that to piss off his fans because its the last movie.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13  Edited By Silver2467
@zackattack529 said:

@Silver2467: You became irrelevant when you said that dumb looking sith was stronger than Vader lmao

An ad hominem is a lovely way to start a reply. I maintain what I said. Vader is roughly as powerful as Darth Bane, who is the weakest of the Banite Sith. Tenebrous is one of the last Banite Sith Lords. The Banite Sith's power increases with each successive Sith Lord. Down the line, Tenebrous would have far exceeded his predecessors, and his feats exhibit that. In contrast with Vader, Tenebrous has greater speed, superior protective powers, similar telekinetic skill, comparable mastery, prevailing knowledge, and more esoteric powers.
 
Tenebrous runs so quickly that he nearly knocks over Plagueis on his initial dash and gives Plagueis a struggle to maintain pace. Vader's running speed is nil by comparison.

Nearly knocked over by the swiftness of Tenebrous’s departure, Plagueis had to call deeply on the Force merely to keep up. Retracing the inclined path they had taken from the grotto in which their starship waited, they fairly flew up the crystal-studded tunnel they had picked their way through earlier. Plagueis grasped that a powerful explosion was perhaps imminent, but was mystified by his Master’s almost mad dash for the surface. In the past Tenebrous had rarely evinced signs of discomfort, let alone fear; so what danger had he sensed that propelled him with such abandon? And when, in the past, had they fled danger of any sort? Safeguarded by the powers of the dark side, the Sith could hardly fear death when they were allied to it. Plagueis stretched out with his feelings in an attempt to identify the source of Tenebrous’s dread, but the Force was silent.
Ten meters ahead of him, the Bith had ducked under a scabrous outcropping. Haste, however, brought him upright too quickly and his left shoulder glanced off the rough rock, leaving a portion of his suit shredded.
“Master, allow me to lead,” Plagueis said when he reached Tenebrous. He was only slightly more agile than the Bith, but he had better night vision and a keener sense of direction, over and above what the Force imparted.
His pride wounded more than his shoulder, Tenebrous waved off the offer. “Be mindful of your place.” Regaining his balance and composure, he streaked off. But at a fork in the tunnel, he took the wrong turn. “This way, Master,” Plagueis called from the other corridor, but he stopped to surrender the lead.
Closer to the surface the tunnels opened into caverns the size of cathedrals, smoothed and hollowed by rainwater that still surged in certain seasons of Bal’demnic’s long year. In pools of standing water darted various species of blind fish. Overhead, hawk-bats took panicked flight from their roosting places in the stippled ceiling. Natural light in the far distance prompted the two Sith to race for the grotto; but, even so, they were a moment late.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Plagueis recalls that he and Tenebrous had faced an army of Kursid warriors wielding bows and lances. Vader is incapable of fighting an army of warriors exercising nothing but speed and agility and remain unscathed.

The location of the planet known to the Sith as Kursid had been expunged from the Republic records in distant times, and for the past six hundred years had been reserved for use as a place of spectacle. Masters and apprentices of the Bane lineage had visited with enough regularity that a cult had come into being in that part of the world based on the periodic return of the sky visitors. The Sith hadn't bothered to investigate what Kursid's indigenous humanoids thought about the visits—whether in their belief systems the Sith were regarded as the equivalent of deities or demons—since it was unlikely that the primitives had yet so much as named their world. However, visiting as apprentice and—more often than not—as Master, each Sith Lord had remarked on the slow advancement of Kursid's civilization. How, on the early visits, the primitives had defended themselves with wooden war clubs and smooth rocks hurled from slings. Two hundred years later, many of the small settlements had grown to become cities or ceremonial centers built of a crude sort, and magical guardian symbols had been emblazoned on the sloping sides of defensive walls. At some point previous to Darth Tenebrous's visit as an apprentice, replicas of the Sith ships had been constructed in the center of the arid plateau that served as a battleground, and enormous totemic figures—visible only from above—had been outlined by removing tens of thousands of fists-sized volcanic stones that covered the ground. On Plagueis's first visit, some fifty years earlier, the warriors he and Tenebrous had faced had been armed with longbows and metal-tipped lances.
That the Sith had never demanded anything other than battle hadn't kept the primitives from attempting to adopt a policy of appeasement, leaving at the ships' perpetual landing site foodstuffs, sacrificial victims, and works of what they considered art, forged of materials they held precious or sacred. But the Sith had simply ignored the offerings, waiting instead on the stony plain for the primitives to deploy their warriors, as the primitives did now with Plagueis and Sidious waiting. Announcing their arrival with low runs over the city, they had set the ship down and waited for six days, while the mournful calls of breath-driven horns had disturbed the dry silences, and groups of primitives had flocked in to gather on the hillsides that overlooked the battleground.
"Do you recall what Darth Bane said regarding the killing of innocents?" Plagueis had asked.
"Our mission," Sidious paraphrased, "is not to bring death on all those unfit to live. All we do must serve our true purpose—the preservation of our Order and the survival of the Sith. We must work to grow our power, and to accomplish that we will need to interact with individuals of many species across many worlds. Eventually word of our existence will reach the ears of the Jedi."
To refrain from senseless killing, they wielded force pikes rather than lightsabers. Meter-long melee weapons used by the Echani and carried by the Senate Guard, the pikes were equipped with stun-module tips capable of delivering a shock that could overwhelm the nervous systems of most sentients, without causing permanent damage.
"The next few hours will test the limits of your agility, speed, and accuracy," Plagueis said, as several hundred of the biggest, bravest, and most skilled warriors—their bodies daubed in pigments derived from plants, clay, and soil—began to separate themselves from the crowds. "But this is more than some simple exercise in our rise to ultimate power, and therefore servants of the dark side of the Force. Centuries from now, advanced by the Sith, they might confront us with projectile weapons or energy beams. But then we will have evolved, as well, perhaps past the need for this rite, and we will come instead to honor rather than engage them in battle. Through power we gain victory, and through victory our chains are broken. But power is only a means to an end."
To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Telekinetically, Tenebrous' feats are on a similar level to Vader. Vader's best telekinetic feat is destroying a cathedral, a feat he managed with considerable effort. With no real strain, Tenebrous supports portions of a collapsing cave from crushing his ship.

A few meters away Plagueis, hurled face-first to the ground by the intensity of the vaporizing blast, lifted his head in time to see the underside of the domed ceiling begin to shed enormous slabs of rock. Directly below the plummeting slabs sat their starship.
“Master!” he said, scrambling to his feet with arms lifted in an attempt to hold the rocks in midair.
His own arms still raised in a Force-summoning posture, Tenebrous swung around to bolster Plagueis’s intent. Behind him, the fireball’s final flames surged from the mouth of the tunnel to lick his back and drive him deeper into the grotto.
The cave continued to spasm underfoot, sending shock waves through the crazed ceiling. Cracks spread like a web from the oculus, triggering collapses throughout the grotto. Plagueis heard a rending sound overhead and watched a fissure zigzag its way across the ceiling, sloughing layer after layer of stone as it followed the grotto’s curved wall.
Now, though, it was Tenebrous who was positioned beneath the fall.
And in that instant Plagueis perceived the danger Tenebrous had foreseen earlier: his death.
His death at Plagueis’s hands.
While Tenebrous was preoccupied holding aloft the slabs that threatened to crush the ship, Plagueis quickly reoriented himself, aiming his raised hands at the plummeting slabs above his Master and, with a downward motion of both arms, brought them down so quickly and with so much momentum that Tenebrous was buried almost before he understood what had hit him.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Tenebrous' Force Barrier is more impressive than Vader's. He creates a Force Barrier that repels an explosion powerful enough to destroy a mine and collapse parts of a cave. Vader's Force Shield has only withstood blaster bolts.

Nearly knocked over by the swiftness of Tenebrous’s departure, Plagueis had to call deeply on the Force merely to keep up. Retracing the inclined path they had taken from the grotto in which their starship waited, they fairly flew up the crystal-studded tunnel they had picked their way through earlier. Plagueis grasped that a powerful explosion was perhaps imminent, but was mystified by his Master’s almost mad dash for the surface. In the past Tenebrous had rarely evinced signs of discomfort, let alone fear; so what danger had he sensed that propelled him with such abandon? And when, in the past, had they fled danger of any sort? Safeguarded by the powers of the dark side, the Sith could hardly fear death when they were allied to it. Plagueis stretched out with his feelings in an attempt to identify the source of Tenebrous’s dread, but the Force was silent.
Ten meters ahead of him, the Bith had ducked under a scabrous outcropping. Haste, however, brought him upright too quickly and his left shoulder glanced off the rough rock, leaving a portion of his suit shredded.
“Master, allow me to lead,” Plagueis said when he reached Tenebrous. He was only slightly more agile than the Bith, but he had better night vision and a keener sense of direction, over and above what the Force imparted.
His pride wounded more than his shoulder, Tenebrous waved off the offer. “Be mindful of your place.” Regaining his balance and composure, he streaked off. But at a fork in the tunnel, he took the wrong turn. “This way, Master,” Plagueis called from the other corridor, but he stopped to surrender the lead.
Closer to the surface the tunnels opened into caverns the size of cathedrals, smoothed and hollowed by rainwater that still surged in certain seasons of Bal’demnic’s long year. In pools of standing water darted various species of blind fish. Overhead, hawk-bats took panicked flight from their roosting places in the stippled ceiling. Natural light in the far distance prompted the two Sith to race for the grotto; but, even so, they were a moment late.
The gas explosion caught up with them just as they were entering the light-filled cavity at the top of the escarpment. From deep in the tunnel resounded a squealing electronic wail, and at the same time, almost as if the cave system were gasping for breath, a searing wind tore down from a perforation in the grotto’s arched ceiling through which the ship had entered. A muffled but ground-heaving detonation followed; then a roiling fireball that was the labyrinth’s scorching exhalation. Whirling to the tunnel they had just exited and managing somehow to remain on his feet, Tenebrous conjured a Force shield with his waving arms that met the fireball and contained it, thousands of flaming hawk-bats spiraling within the tumult like windblown embers.
A few meters away Plagueis, hurled face-first to the ground by the intensity of the vaporizing blast, lifted his head in time to see the underside of the domed ceiling begin to shed enormous slabs of rock. Directly below the plummeting slabs sat their starship.
“Master!” he said, scrambling to his feet with arms lifted in an attempt to hold the rocks in midair.
His own arms still raised in a Force-summoning posture, Tenebrous swung around to bolster Plagueis’s intent. Behind him, the fireball’s final flames surged from the mouth of the tunnel to lick his back and drive him deeper into the grotto.
The cave continued to spasm underfoot, sending shock waves through the crazed ceiling. Cracks spread like a web from the oculus, triggering collapses throughout the grotto. Plagueis heard a rending sound overhead and watched a fissure zigzag its way across the ceiling, sloughing layer after layer of stone as it followed the grotto’s curved wall.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 
So kindly tell me, how am I wrong about Tenebrous being more powerful than Vader?

and also how do you know that Kit and Plo have never fought a sith? just because they didn't show it in the movies doesn't mean they havn't fought Siths. Siths are they're specialties.

We can add appeal to ignorance to your list of fallacies. Never in any Star Wars media, be it the movies or EU, have Fisto or Koon fought a Sith Lord, save for Revenge of the Sith where Fisto was stomped by one, but you presume "Sith are their specialties"? Your proof is lacking.

Also in epidsode 3 that was PIS that Sidious so easily killed Fisto. it almost made my head explode. Lucas obviously did that to piss off his fans because its the last movie.

And this is a red herring. Your opinion of Lucas' regard for SW fans is inconsequential. There was no PIS about the fight; Sidious is just better than Kit. In fact, he killed Fisto and the other two so quickly that Mace never even saw it happen. What's more, the only reason Fisto lasted longer than Tiin or Kolar (not that he lasted very long to begin with) was because of Shii-Cho. Sidious may only have been brandishing a single blade, but due to the speed disparity between him and Fisto, it would appear to Fisto as if Palpatine was swinging several lightsaber, just as it appeared that way to Anakin when he entered the office. Under the pretense of wielding multiple weapons, Shii-Cho's combative attributes, which are acclimated toward fighting more than enemy or one enemy with more than one weapon, would defend Fisto. And despite that, Kit still lost.

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
Avatar image for zackattack529
zackattack529

1408

Forum Posts

73

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#14  Edited By zackattack529

@Silver2467: 0.0.......not gonna lie, you got some serious debating skills haha.

Avatar image for imboredletsdebate
ImBoredLetsDebate

617

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@Silver2467 said:

@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
However, if you mean no one is soloing as in Darth Vader could not kill, and pretty easily, Plo and Kit 2v1, then you would be wrong imo.
I suggest you actually read material about Fisto and Koon before passing judgment on the outcome. Vader is not beating both at once.

I've read a decent amount on both. Kit Fisto is one of my favorite characters in SW. Vader might no solo them easily, but he could, and imo, would, solo them. Vader in his prime >>> Plo and Fisto

Vader was able to take on multiple jedi at once, he was able to kill Cin Drallig with relative ease, he killed Dark Woman (although with some difficulty), and multiple other things before he was even in his prime.

I was one of the first people to join the SW:ToR forums if I recall correctly, and virtually all of the time I spent was on SW Discussion where every other thread was a Vs thread. I never saw any feats that Plo or Kisto performed that would put either one of them anywhere near Vader's skill in lightsaber combat. If you have some I'd like to see/hear about them.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By Silver2467
@ImBoredLetsDebate said: 

Vader was able to take on multiple jedi at once, he was able to kill Cin Drallig with relative ease, he killed Dark Woman (although with some difficulty), and multiple other things before he was even in his prime.

I know just about all of Vader's combat feats, and no, he would not solo them. Vader fighting several Jedi, such as he did on Kessel and Kashyyyk, was against a group of Jedi of no particular repute. He killed Drallig Pre-Mustafar, and Pre-Mustafar Vader is not translatable to Post-Mustafar Vader. They fight very differently, as exposited on in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader; Vader had to develop a completely new, conglomerate fighting style to adapt to his cybernetics. It is a worthwhile showing but not one that suggests he could beat two Jedi of far eclipsing capability to those Vader defeated before. Beating the Dark Woman is a decent feat, as is beating Roan Shryne, Bol Chatak, Celeste Morne, Sardoth, and fighting evenly with an amped Maul and Luke, among other feats. But none of these portend that he could defeat Fisto and Koon together. The fact that Vader struggles with single Jedi, such as the Dark Woman, Obi-Wan, or Luke, should attest to that. Vader reached the height of his combat skill in RotJ, and Luke, who is only slightly below the level of duelists such as Dooku or Mace Windu, was a perfect equal with him. Fisto is not drastically far behind that fighting status, and Koon only adds to the pressure they could put on Vader.
 

I was one of the first people to join the SW:ToR forums if I recall correctly, and virtually all of the time I spent was on SW Discussion where every other thread was a Vs thread. I never saw any feats that Plo or Kisto performed that would put either one of them anywhere near Vader's skill in lightsaber combat. If you have some I'd like to see/hear about them.

Not really sure why this should matter to me. I was active on the TOR forums as well, and most of my time was also spent in the battle threads. With that said, I know enough about that forum to say that virtually every user on those threads knew nothing about the characters being debated. Barring a select few respectable users, the TOR forum is an extremely poor source of battle-related information.
 
Regarding feats, Fisto has overwhelmed General Grievous in TCW, casually handled two MagnaGuards (although they can be inconsistent, MagnaGuards are viable threats in certain stories, particularly in the Dark Lord trilogy where in Revenge of the Sith, three of them were a challenge to Obi-Wan), and he is one of the best duelists in the Order.
 

Kit's bulging black eyes indicated Palpatine. "They want to take him alive."
The words had scarcely left his mouth when something hit the train with sufficient force to whip everyone from one side of the car to the other, then back again. The Red Guards were just regaining their balance when the roof began to resound with the cadence of heavy, clanging footfalls, advancing from the rear of the train.
"Grievous," Mace grumbled.
Kit glanced at him. "Here we go again."
Hurrying into the vestibule between the two lead cars, they launched themselves to the roof. Three cars distant marched General Grievous and two of his elite droids, their capes snapping behind them in the wind, pulse-tipped batons angled across their barrel chests. Farther back, clamped by animal-like claws to the roof of the train, was the gunboat from which the frightful trio had been released.
Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.
Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.
To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...
The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil

Most of the Jedi are deployed on distant worlds, but Mace manages to assemble a trio of celebrated swordmasters to assist him in arresting Palpatine: Agen Kolar, a Zabrak known among the Jedi to strike first and ask questions later; Saesee Tiin, a solitary Iktotchi who has never chosen a Padawan learner; and Kit Fisto, Nautolan master of Form 1 lightsaber technique, who distinguished himself on Geonosis and Mon Calamari, and who partnered Mace in battling Grievous on Coruscant.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Mace Windu stood in the darkened comm center of Jedi Command, facing a life-sized holoscan of Yoda, projected from a concealed Wookiee comm center in the heart of a wroshyr tree on Kashyyyk.
"Minutes ago," Mace said, "we received confirmation from Utapau: Kenobi was successful. Grievous is dead."
"Time it is to execute our plan."
"I will personally deliver the news of Grievous's death." Mace flexed his hands. "It will be up to the Chancellor to cede his emergency powers back over to the Senate."
"Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."
"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."
"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."
"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."

Shaak Ti felt him coming before she could see him. The infra-and ultrasound-sensitive cavities in the tall, curving montrals to either side of her head gave her a sense analogous to touch: the texture of his approaching footsteps was ragged as old sacking. As he rounded the corner to the landing deck door, his breathing felt like a pile of gravel and his heartbeat was spiking like a Zabrak's head. He didn't look good, either; he was deathly pale, even for a human, and his eyes were raw. 
"Anakin," she said warmly. Perhaps a friendly word was what he needed; she doubted he'd gotten many from Mace Windu. "Thank you for what you have done. The Jedi Order is in your debt—the whole galaxy, as well." 
"Shaak Ti. Get out of my way." 
Shaky as he looked, there was nothing unsteady in his voice: it was deeper than she remembered, more mature, and it carried undertones of authority that she had never heard before. And she was not blind to the fact he had neglected to call her 
Master
She put forth a hand, offering calming energies through the Force. "The Temple is sealed, Anakin. The door is code-locked." 
"And you're in the way of the pad." 
She stepped aside, allowing him to the pad; she had no reason to keep him here against his will. He punched the code hungrily. "If Palpatine retaliates," she said reasonably, "is not your place here, to help with our defense?" 
"I'm the 
chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there—" 
"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
 
For Plo, with a broken arm he stalemated Ventress, a duelist who gives Obi-Wan and Anakin trouble very frequently.
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6
Neither Fisto nor Koon are as skillful as Vader individually, and he would beat either one individually. But he is not beating both at once. Vader has never defeated two Jedi of their caliber simultaneously before. As I said, even one Jedi of their stature, such as Obi-Wan and Luke, can fight closely with Vader. Two would beat him.
Avatar image for masterjohn
MasterJohn

2663

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#17  Edited By MasterJohn

I have a question, are you saying because Kit Fisto and Plo Koon don't have any feats against a sith, means that they can't win in a fight against a sith?

Avatar image for imboredletsdebate
ImBoredLetsDebate

617

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@Silver2467 said:

I know just about all of Vader's combat feats, and no, he would not solo them. Vader fighting several Jedi, such as he did on Kessel and Kashyyyk, was against a group of Jedi of no particular repute. He killed Drallig Pre-Mustafar, and Pre-Mustafar Vader is not translatable to Post-Mustafar Vader. They fight very differently, as exposited on in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader; Vader had to develop a completely new, conglomerate fighting style to adapt to his cybernetics. It is a worthwhile showing but not one that suggests he could beat two Jedi of far eclipsing capability to those Vader defeated before. Beating the Dark Woman is a decent feat, as is beating Roan Shryne, Bol Chatak, Celeste Morne, Sardoth, and fighting evenly with an amped Maul and Luke, among other feats. But none of these portend that he could defeat Fisto and Koon together. The fact that Vader struggles with single Jedi, such as the Dark Woman, Obi-Wan, or Luke, should attest to that. Vader reached the height of his combat skill in RotJ, and Luke, who is only slightly below the level of duelists such as Dooku or Mace Windu, was a perfect equal with him. Fisto is not drastically far behind that fighting status, and Koon only adds to the pressure they could put on Vader.

Ignoring the fact that you contradict yourself several times in your post, example being that pre-mustafar isn't translatable into post, but then use his fight against Obi-Wan as evidence about how he struggled which was pre, I will bite because I feel like this will be a good debate. Obviously you have knowledge so I won't go into deep detail about everything. Also, excuse my lack of scans and the such please. You can ignore posting them as well if you would like, I usually google and cross-reference anything questionable in a debate.

No particular repute as in barely known, yes, but several were Jedi masters. To imply that they aren't skilled, even half of that of Plo or Kit with a lightsaber, is stretching. Vader killed 4 even though he fought 7(?), and this was not even at his height of power. You can't say Plo and Kit are "far exclipsing capability to those Vader defeated before" because Cin is, considering who he was, a better duelist than Kit and Plo. Vader struggled with single Jedi when he was still struggling to find a form/master the one he created. Vader is above Dooku's level in RotS, and since he is at the height of his power in RotJ, that would put Luke above Dooku's level and arguably above Mace's level at RotJ.

Post-Mustafar >>>>> Pre-Mustafar in basically every way. And it wasn't "completely new". He took parts of different forms and merged them into one, some of those forms he already had experience in. Fisto is pretty far behind Windu, Luke, and arguably Obi-Wan. His only great feats are against multiple opponents/lightsabers (as you provide with scans(?) below). What feats does Fisto have vs a single opponent? His form gets him wrecked by single opponents as far as I know, as seen with his fight vs Ventress who was able to defeat him, but she wasn't near as powerful as Dooku or anywhere near as good of a duelist as him. Kit's form does not help at all in this instance, and would actually be terrible as Vader could dispose of him rather quickly. Plo uses Djem So which is aggressive and would just play in Vader's hands as well.

Not really sure why this should matter to me. I was active on the TOR forums as well, and most of my time was also spent in the battle threads. With that said, I know enough about that forum to say that virtually every user on those threads knew nothing about the characters being debated. Barring a select few respectable users, the TOR forum is an extremely poor source of battle-related information.

I said that because you told me to read up on them the Kit and Plo. Yes, some/a lot of the threads were, but there were a decent amount that were not; particularly the Vader vs threads since he was/is such an iconic character.

Regarding feats, Fisto has overwhelmed General Grievous in TCW, casually handled two MagnaGuards (although they can be inconsistent, MagnaGuards are viable threats in certain stories, particularly in the Dark Lord trilogy where in Revenge of the Sith, three of them were a challenge to Obi-Wan), and he is one of the best duelists in the Order.

As you state, they are inconsistent, and as I have stated, and as we both know, Fisto's forms allows him to excel vs multiple opponents, but severly lacks vs a single one.

For Plo, with a broken arm he stalemated Ventress, a duelist who gives Obi-Wan and Anakin trouble very frequently.

Yes, this is a good feat. However, Ventress was a master of Makashi, and Plo a master of Djem So. Djem So is very effective against Makashi as it relies on the opponent to be aggressive. Also, Anakin has beaten Ventress in TCW if I recall correctly, and that was far before he was at the height of his power.

Neither Fisto nor Koon are as skillful as Vader individually, and he would beat either one individually. But he is not beating both at once. Vader has never defeated two Jedi of their caliber simultaneously before. As I said, even one Jedi of their stature, such as Obi-Wan and Luke, can fight closely with Vader. Two would beat him.

I think you underestimate Vader or overestimate Kit and Plo...or both. Yes, they both have some feats, but none of them are near equal to what Vader has been able to do, save Fisto defeating Grevious, which, as stated, his form helps him greatly to do. And, again, you use his fight on Mustafar for evidence, but tried to refute mine by saying Pre =/= Post.

Avatar image for jameskm716
JamesKM716

2018

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

#19  Edited By JamesKM716

@MasterJohn: That's not what he's saying at all. Vader and Tenebrous are two of the most powerful Sith Lords ever. Kit Fisto and Plo Koon are above average Jedi. They can't beat this team.

It's like saying Anakin and Obi-Wan vs Sidious. Anakin and Obi-Wan are powerful Jedi. But Sidious is an entirely level above them.

Fisto and Koon could potentially defeat a Sith. THey could kill many i suspect, such as Darth Talon, or Darth Malgus (potentially), but Tenebrous and Vader are simply a league above most sith.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#20  Edited By Silver2467
@ImBoredLetsDebate said: 

Ignoring the fact that you contradict yourself several times in your post, example being that pre-mustafar isn't translatable into post, but then use his fight against Obi-Wan as evidence about how he struggled which was pre

There are no contradictions in my post. The fight with Obi-Wan I referenced was from ANH, not RotS. That should be obvious given the criteria I was addressing for relevant feats to Vader.
 

No particular repute as in barely known, yes, but several were Jedi masters. To imply that they aren't skilled, even half of that of Plo or Kit with a lightsaber, is stretching.

Based on what? The Jedi Vader fought in Dark Lord were not masters as I recall, except for Shryne, and he fought him one on one. Regarding the Jedi he fought in Purge, the only ones Vader killed who were masters were Koffi Arana and Shadday, and Vader never even beat Koffi or Shadday in a duel. He killed Koffi by telekinetically hurling a cortosis dagger into his chest, and he killed Shadday, again not by virtue of being more proficient with a lightsaber, but by Force pulling her toward himself after she disabled his lightsaber with a cortosis blade and then snapping her neck. Ma'kis was a Knight, and so was Sia-Lan. Those were the only Jedi Vader defeated on Kessel. As I said, none of these characters have anything that approaches Koon or Fisto. 
 

because Cin is, considering who he was, a better duelist than Kit and Plo.

I have seen nothing to suggest that. Drallig's status as a duelist is by reputation, not established or demonstrated fact. Not unless you were hoping to use his position as battlemaster to somehow substantiate his formidability, to which I would respond that if that position equated to titanic fighting abilities, he should be the best or at least second best duelist in the Order, but those titles belong to Yoda and Mace Windu respectively. If you were hoping to cite Dooku's reference to Drallig in Labyrinth, I could just as easily respond by pointing out Maul's high opinion of Plo Koon in Shadow Hunter. And again, that was Pre-Mustafar Vader. 
 

Vader struggled with single Jedi when he was still struggling to find a form/master the one he created. 

Not true. Vader formed and mastered his conglomerate Djem So form within months after the formation of the Empire. His style is similar to Luke's in that its core form is Djem So, but it incorporates disciplines from every style. He had mastered it before he battled Roan Shryne on Kashyyyk. 
 

Vader is above Dooku's level in RotS, and since he is at the height of his power in RotJ, that would put Luke above Dooku's level and arguably above Mace's level at RotJ.

Post-Mustafar Vader was at his height in RotJ. However, Anakin beat Dooku, as you pointed out, because of Djem So's physical dominance over Makashi, which contributed profusely to Anakin's victory. Whether that asserts him as equal or even above Dooku and Mace in raw skill is arguable. But even if it does, as I said, Post-Mustafar Vader is not equitable to Pre-Mustafar Vader. They have different physical capabilities, they fight differently, they operate differently. And, no, Luke was not above Mace or Dooku by RotJ. If he was, he never would have struggled with Flint or Lumiya within a year after RotJ. 
 

Post-Mustafar >>>>> Pre-Mustafar in basically every way. And it wasn't "completely new".

I have seen no feats of power or skill from Post-Mustafar Vader that Anakin had not accomplished preceding it. Vader has destroyed a cathedral; Anakin moved a Conqueror-class dreadnaught. Anakin beat Cin Drallig and Dooku; Vader stalemated Luke and beat Roan Shryne. Tell where this massive disparity exists between them, because I don't see it. 
 

He took parts of different forms and merged them into one, some of those forms he already had experience in.

...Which is still different. Vader had to specifically adjust to the mechanics of his limb movement and grip, which changed his form considerably. Pre-Mustafar, Anakin could be very agile and limber; Post-Mustafar, he could leap long distances but not perform the acrobatic evasions he could before. 
 

Fisto is pretty far behind Windu, Luke, and arguably Obi-Wan.

Not really. 
 

His only great feats are against multiple opponents/lightsabers (as you provide with scans(?) below). What feats does Fisto have vs a single opponent? His form gets him wrecked by single opponents as far as I know, as seen with his fight vs Ventress who was able to defeat him, but she wasn't near as powerful as Dooku or anywhere near as good of a duelist as him.

Fisto lost to Ventress because Makashi is particularly suited to defeat a Shii-Cho practitioner. 
 

Kit's form does not help at all in this instance, and would actually be terrible as Vader could dispose of him rather quickly.

Dispose of him quickly like he didn't dispose of Obi-Wan quickly? Or how he didn't dispose of Luke quickly? 
 

Yes, this is a good feat. However, Ventress was a master of Makashi, and Plo a master of Djem So. Djem So is very effective against Makashi as it relies on the opponent to be aggressive.

Source? What evidence do you have that Koon is a Djem So adept? And how do you know that that even factored into the duel? Djem So does not automatically afford an advantage over a Makashi swordmaster; if it did, Anakin would have beaten Dooku in AotC (after losing his second lightsaber, since he adopted an Ataru fighting technique while fighting with two blades). There needs to be a substantial physical gap between the two swordsmen for that to become an issue, as was the case when Anakin dueled Tyranus in RotS; the amount of impact force he threw at Dooku was made very apparent in the novelization, an impact force that is consistent with his various other speed and strength feats. Koon has no particularly notable strength showings, and the fact that he fought with one arm also works against your theory. Djem So involves usually broad and two-handed blows which are designed to strike with maximum force. Plo fought one handed and was on the defensive in certain points (specifically after he deprived Ventress of one of her blades). How would that alter the duel at all? 
 

I think you underestimate Vader or overestimate Kit and Plo...or both.

You overestimate Vader. If Vader was capable of beating two Jedi of Fisto or Koon's caliber, he would cease to struggle with just one Jedi of their caliber, yet just about every Jedi he faces gives him pause. Why you think he would suddenly grow new skills to beat two is beyond me.
Avatar image for deactivated-5a98875cd0f94
deactivated-5a98875cd0f94

2257

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Vader alone would give these two a HELL of a fight. With Tenebrous, he wins. Fisto's style is good for multiple opponents, but Vader alone outmatches him in saber skill, and maybe Tenebrous does. Vader is very good with the Force, better then the Jedi, and Plo's Electric Judgement will not harm Vader, as he can catch it with his saber. Vader is the clear MVP, but Tenebrous would do well, and provide a distraction for Vader to do his job.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

6089

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

First picture of Vader is simply exquisite.

Team 2 wins, Vader, Plo & Fisto are all in the same tier, Tenebrous is above them all. Vader holds out against either whilst Tenebrous defeats his opponent.

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
Dawn_of_Ages

2537

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Either Rugess or Vader solo

Avatar image for thatoneguy887
Thatoneguy887

1098

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#24  Edited By Thatoneguy887

Time of OP, Vader solos.

Koon gets it in the poon and fisto gets fisted

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
Dawn_of_Ages

2537

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

"MUH TAGGED BY SHA KOON"

Avatar image for richard96
Richard96

7394

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#26  Edited By Richard96

What kind of stomp is this? Either Tenebrous or Vader can solo with ease.

Avatar image for greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

7033

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Either Sith oneshot both at once.

Avatar image for anonymousjedi
AnonymousJedi

1230

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

What kind of stomp is this? Either Tenebrous or Vader can solo with ease.

Either Sith oneshot both at once.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

6089

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#29  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

Bump:

Vader is factually incapable of accomplishing anything near a one-shot, given the fact that he struggled in ANH against a past-prime Kenobi when even ROTS Kenobi by feats and scaling is below both of the Jedi here.

Tenebrous solostomps.

Avatar image for tanhausergate
tanhausergate

619

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

its impossible to argue for Tenebrous here, as we know too little about him.

Avatar image for richard96
Richard96

7394

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Lol, why should this be fair?

Avatar image for king-ragnar
King-Ragnar

6779

Forum Posts

100

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Yeah this isn't fair. Either of the Sith could solo.

Avatar image for masma94
Masma94

650

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

This isn't fait, the sith stomp Kit and Plo.

Avatar image for greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

7033

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Yeah this isn't fair. Either of the Sith could solo.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

6089

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@king-ragnar:

Prove it. Suit-Vader in ANH lost handily to TPM Maul, who has personally stated that TPM Plo would severely hardpesss him in a fight:

"The Twi'lek he had fought had not been the first Jedi he had crossed lightsaber with, but he was not far from having that honor. It had been exhilirating to know that he, Darth Maul, was better in combat than his foes. He longed to face one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu. That would be a true test of his skill..."

-- Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Obviously this is subjective, but I doubt that Maul is an idiot who would be ignorant enough to be wrong about something like this .

Meanwhile, ANH Vader was also sorely tested by ANH Kenobi. Even a prime Kenobi is still inferior to people who struggle against MagnaGuards, who are noticeably sub-Grievous opponents and like half the Council scales above Grievous by direct feats(or logic in Yoda's case):

- Eeth Koth

- Kit Fisto

- Depa Billaba

- Ki-Adi Mundi

- Yoda

- Mace Windu

To top it off, Fisto, Depa and Mundi are all newer members and therefore scale below people like Plo.

Now clearly, ROTJ Vader is better than his ANH incarnation. But the gap will not be large. And, if Vader is still closely-matched by a guy who is inferior to a guy who is inferior to a guy who still struggles against sub-Grievous opponents, how, pray tell, does Vader solo?

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

20126

Forum Posts

58564

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Either Sith solos. You’d have to be more than ignorant to say Vader doesn’t solo, let alone scales below the Jedi here.

Avatar image for rhoynedelta
RhoyneDelta

171

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#37  Edited By RhoyneDelta

Jedi are out of their league, people sleep on Rule of Two sith that are not Palpatine

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

6089

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Amazing how people not only ignore feats and still pretend that Vader even beating any of the Jedi here is a decided matter, much less soloing, but then go and aggressively insult people who disagree.

Vader is still closely matched by a past prime Kenobi. Kenobi in his prime is still inferior to people like Anakin, who himself is hardpressed to overcome a MagnaGuard like IG-102, who would be noticeably below General Grievous. Meanwhile, Depa Billaba, Eeth Koth, Ki-Adi Mundi, and Kit Fisto have all directly battled Grievous and proved better. Plo scales above them all, and to add to it, the same TPM Maul who handily dominated ANH Vader, also strongly asserted that a pre-prime Plo would be capable of giving him the fight of his life.

Tenebrous solos, Vader is not needed here. And would probably lose anyway.

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

20126

Forum Posts

58564

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Imagine thinking Obi-Wan in his prime and even Anakin are below Plo Koon because Koon magically scales above people like Fisto and Koth because they’ve directly fought General Grievous, suggesting Kenobi A) has never fought Grievous, B) doesn’t have better feats than Fisto, Gallia, Koth, and Mundi (which he does) and C) is <<< General Grievous. I guess that was some other dude named Obi-Wan Kenobi who fought and defeated Grievous in RotS since all this unneeded and unnecessary scaling means Grievous >> the real Kenobi.

Vader still solos. Jump through all the hoops you want. Common sense, logic, and actual feats >>>> nonsensical and faulty scaling.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

6089

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Imagine lacking the reading comprehension required to properly understand a post and then posting strawmen whilst pretending they're legitimate points.

Things I did not say, that certain people pretend I said: Fisto & Mundi fought Grievous and are therefore better than Kenobi. Implying that Kenobi never fought Grievous.

What I actually said:

"Meanwhile, Depa Billaba, Eeth Koth, Ki-Adi Mundi, and Kit Fisto have all directly battled Grievous and proved better."

-- Lord Tenebrous, 2019

1) I never mentioned Gallia, who lost to Grievous under even circumstances after trading ground, and was beating him when she had the leverage of higher ground. I mentioned Billaba, who lost to Grievous in TCW but outfought him in their rematch in 19 bby.

2) Having better feats than someone doesn't invalidate scaling, the person who benefits from the scaling simply becomes that much better. Common sense.  

3) Kenobi didn't beat Grievous under even circumstances. According to the Relaunched Fact Files he had several advantages that aided him in the fight, such as:

- Fighting on the narrow walkway, and keeping the bout in close quarters, which impeded Grievous' fighting style

"Jedi and cyborg fought briefly along a catwalk suspended over the lower levels of the hangar. By limiting Grievous' movement to the catwalk, Obi-Wan was able to neutralise the General's usually more ranging fighting style. Kenobi kept the fight close to the cyborg..." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files

- Knowledge of Grievous' style 

"...Used to Grievous' moves now after so many encounters, it wasn't long before a clawed mechanical hand and the lightsaber it had once held clattered down onto the deck." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files 

- Grievous becoming enraged and subsequently losing focus

"Grievous was incensed. He launched a blistering attack, but his focus was gone. A matter of seconds later, he lost another hand and weapon." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files 

Despite all that, Obi-Wan was still being heavily pressured in the fight: 

"OBI-WAN is hardpressed to defend himself against the deadly onslaught." 

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script 

To top it off, after shoving Kenobi away, Grievous still thought he was going to win: 

"Army or not, you must realize, you are doomed." 

-- Revenge of the Sith 

So we know that: 

- Grievous repeatedly creamed Obi-Wan throughout TCW, as late as 19 bby 

- A prime ROTS Kenobi with extreme difficulty only managed to gain the upper hand over Grievous with a plethora of circumstances aiding him 

- Grievous still thought Kenobi was going to lose the fight 

- ROTS Kenobi is inferior to a guy who struggles to overcome MagnaGuards like IG-102 

There's no evidence to suggest that Kenobi is better than Grievous. In fact, the evidence demonstrates the opposite. By comparison, Mundi, Koth, Depa, and Fisto have all fought Grievous and proved the better fighter. We know quite clearly that the 12 members of the Council are the most skilled Jedi alive unless explicitly stated otherwise, so it logically follows that newer members of the Council are also the weakest, since the rest of the Council was there when they were not. Plo scales above Fisto and Depa, excluding Mundi since he became the upper tier of the Council in ROTS. 

You can ignore valid information and subsequent scaling, but it doesn't change reality. Vader is still comparable to a guy who is inferior to someone who is inferior to someone who struggles against MagnaGuards. On the other hand, Kit Fisto directly outfought General Grievous himself and Plo Koon scales above people who did the same. Vader even being better than either Jedi is debatable. To say he can solo is ludicrous and utterly baseless.

Tenebrous solos, Vader is unnecessary.

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

20126

Forum Posts

58564

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Imagine lacking the reading comprehension required to properly understand a post and then posting strawmen whilst pretending they're legitimate points.

Imagine thinking this applied to any other post but your own.

Things I did not say, that certain people pretend I said: Fisto & Mundi fought Grievous and are therefore better than Kenobi. Implying that Kenobi never fought Grievous.

Your own line of scaling is: Kenobi is < Anakin, Anakin struggled against a Magnaguard, Magnaguards are < Grievous, "Depa Billaba, Eeth Koth, Ki-Adi Mundi, and Kit Fisto have all directly battled Grievous and proved better" (which is wrong but sure we'll go with that), Depa, Koth, Mundi, and Fisto < Koon, therefore Koon < Obi-Wan.

The severe lack of reading comprehension, coupled with the fact that you don't even understand your own faulty scaling, is what's flat out embarrassing here.

I mentioned Billaba, who lost to Grievous in TCW but outfought him in their rematch in 19 bby.

She did no such thing. They dueled, she managed to cut off two hands at most, clone interrupted the fight, and then when we see them engage in the fight, Billaba is seen on her back and the Clone needed to save her while Grievous runs away.

How one can even come to the conclusion that she "outdueled" him is beyond me.

Having better feats than someone doesn't invalidate scaling, the person who benefits from the scaling simply becomes that much better. Common sense.

You say the word "common sense" yet have never once used it in any of your posts.

Obi-Wan has better feats than the characters you mentioned being Koth, Mundi, Fisto, and Billaba. They don't scale above him, thus meaning Koon doesn't scale above him. So no, Koon isn't even better because of your incoherent scaling.

Ignoring that scaling doesn't work the way you're talking about in the SW universe, of course.

Kenobi didn't beat Grievous under even circumstances. According to the Relaunched Fact Files he had several advantages that aided him in the fight

It literally doesn't matter. Kenobi is the only person in this whole list who has actually killed Grievous. Everyone else you mentioned only fought him, none of them proving better.

Obi-Wan having advantages in the fight doesn't make his win less impressive or suddenly mean that his actual defeat of Grievous is <<<< other characters who only ever managed to fight Grievous and nothing else. That's some plain stupidity if you think so.

I guess Maul isn't actually more skilled than Qui-Gon because he had advantages over him during their fight. Good to know.

To top it off, after shoving Kenobi away, Grievous still thought he was going to win:

Which means absolutely nothing.

Not even gonna bother responding to the other quotes if this is what you choose to end on.

Grievous repeatedly creamed Obi-Wan throughout TCW, as late as 19 bby

Wrong. In three of their main fights out of what, four total, Grievous didn't beat Kenobi once. The idea that he creamed him, let alone creamed him repeatedly, is both false and asinine.

Watch the show if you don't believe me.

A prime ROTS Kenobi with extreme difficulty only managed to gain the upper hand over Grievous with a plethora of circumstances aiding him

Kenobi had Grievous dead to rights (hence why he ran away) and ultimately ended up losing. These "plethora" (wrong word in this instance but again not surprised) doesn't invalidate Kenobi's win or make it less impressive than the other Jedi you listed, who fared worse than Obi-Wan did.

Grievous still thought Kenobi was going to lose the fight

Why should the subjective views of a cyborg who sees himself as above all Jedi be taken seriously at all? That's right, it shouldn't. Listing that as a reason for why Kenobi's defeat of Grievous is less impressive is, again, false and asinine.

ROTS Kenobi is inferior to a guy who struggles to overcome MagnaGuards like IG-102

Yes let's ignore more common sense, logic, and feats to spread around more lies based on faulty and incoherent scaling. Still the same old troll.

Ahsoka managed to defeat three Magnaguards. Ahsoka > Anakin confirmed. Thanks for that.

Nahdar Vebb was able to defeat many Magnaguards with ease. Vebb > Anakin and Obi-Wan confirmed. Common sense right there.

Dooku also is equal to Sidious now because Yoda couldn't overcome either of them. Great logic.

There's no evidence to suggest that Kenobi is better than Grievous.

I guess we're gonna ignore the many times Grievous couldn't defeat Obi-Wan in TCW and the time that Obi-Wan killed him in ROTS. Cause all of that evidence clearly isn't evidence.

In fact, the evidence demonstrates the opposite.

What evidence is that? The times Grievous "repeatedly creamed" Obi-Wan in TCW but was on the losing end of most of their fights and had to run away, or the time that Obi-Wan killed Grievous? Which of those demonstrate Grievous is better?

By comparison, Mundi, Koth, Depa, and Fisto have all fought Grievous and proved the better fighter.

Not only are you wrong, I'm gonna go through and tell you why you're wrong.

Mundi only ever fought Grievous in Legends continuity. You can't scale Canon Plo Koon, which this thread is using, to be better than him because those events never happened in Canon. Not only that, Mundi never in their fight proved he was the better fighter. Here's the entire fight. If Mundi had proved better, we would have actually seen him defeat Grievous. An inconclusive fight =/= Mundi is a better fighter than Grievous.

Loading Video...

Next is Koth. Not only does Koth not beat Grievous, he's immediately forced on the defensive and only is able to launch a Force Push once grievous relented and backed away. Landing a single Force Push once the enemy stops fighting =/= Koth is a better fighter than Grievous.

Loading Video...

Then we have Billaba. Billaba did the best out of these Jedi so far by being the only one to cut off at most two of Grievous's arms, but still can't defeat him. Nowhere does she prove to be the better fighter and nowhere does she outduel him, evidence enough by her being on her back in the last scan and having the Clone chase off Grievous. Failing to defeat and being saved from death by Clones =/= Billaba is a better fighter than Grievous.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Finally we have Kit Fisto. The only one of these Jedi to actually perform well against Grievous. Despite this, despite only cutting off one hand, despite Force Pushing him to the ground, Kit still didn't defeat Grievous. Another inconclusive fight where you're claiming one character is a clear superior to another while ignoring quotes saying Kit isn't a better fighter:

Retreating from Grievous's trap, Kit called for his astromech to meet him on Vassek's surface. But he found himself battling both Grievous and his Magnaguards--and he barely escaped the confrontation with his life.

Source: Star Wars Databank

Grievous maintained his own lair in a Separatist headquarters. Located on the third moon of Vassek, it contained several rooms and chambers, featuring statues of an alien warrior and multiple armors. The lair was discovered by investigating Jedi and clones, who surprised the General and demanded his surrender. While he suffered severe injuries, Grievous escaped and was restored by his doctor, A-4D; he regrouped to unleash a surprise of his own on the Jedi: Gor, his vicious pet roggwart. While Gor was destroyed, Grievous himself killed a young Padawan called Nahdar and overwhelmed Kit Fisto in lightsaber combat. The General survived to fight another day.

Source: Star Wars Databank

This, coupled by the fact that Kit's style is a clear advantage going against multiple weapons and blades, means that his "victory" over Grievous isn't impressive, according to you. Having advantages against an opponent and winning via those advantages is less impressive than just fighting someone and nothing else. Not winning or losing, simply fighting them.

So Kit not defeating Grievous but doing well via his advantages =/= a better fighter than Grievous.

Loading Video...

We know quite clearly that the 12 members of the Council are the most skilled Jedi alive unless explicitly stated otherwise, so it logically follows that newer members of the Council are also the weakest, since the rest of the Council was there when they were not. Plo scales above Fisto and Depa, excluding Mundi since he became the upper tier of the Council in ROTS.

Tell that to Coleman Trebor and Even Piell.

Scaling doesn't work like that in SW unless you're telling me Nahdar Vebb is > the Chosen One. Knowing you though you probably would agree since disagreeing would mean admitting your faulty logic is indeed faulty.

You can ignore valid information and subsequent scaling, but it doesn't change reality.

You haven't shown vaild information and subsequent scaling. You've shown me false and misinterpreted misinformation backed with faulty and incoherent scaling. Of course actual information isn't going to change your faulty reality because your reality is based on the worst scaling I've seen in SW.

Vader is still comparable to a guy who is inferior to someone who is inferior to someone who struggles against MagnaGuards

Via nothing but headcanon and faulty scaling.

On the other hand, Kit Fisto directly outfought General Grievous himself and Plo Koon scales above people who did the same.

Scales above him via nothing but heacanon and faulty scaling.

And according to that same headcanon and faulty scaling, Fisto didn't even defeat Grievous.

Vader even being better than either Jedi is debatable

In case anyone was still wondering whether or not you're talking out of your ass, this should cement it for them.

To say he can solo is ludicrous and utterly baseless.

To say Vader is weaker than Prime Kenobi who is weaker than Fisto who is weaker than Koon is more then ludicrous and utterly baseless.

You can't find one feat for the Jedi that would allow them to survive being oneshot with the Force by a morals off Vader, you'll just sit and hide behind your quotes that don't support your position and your scaling that doesn't work and is based on nothing but headcanon, baseless claims, and the clear absence of common sense and logic.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

6089

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Considering you've been on this site for so long, I was expecting a competent, challenging reply. Instead, I got outdated YouTube-tier arguments that defeat themselves. Most disappointing.

Now, I'll ignore the useless filler statements and cut to the actual "arguments," since replying to such obvious trash is already a waste of time without responding to each barb and regurgitated assertion: 

"She did no such thing. They dueled, she managed to cut off two hands at most, clone interrupted the fight, and then when we see them engage in the fight, Billaba is seen on her back and the Clone needed to save her while Grievous runs away. How one can even come to the conclusion that she 'outdueled' him is beyond me| Then we have Billaba. Billaba did the best out of these Jedi so far by being the only one to cut off at most two of Grievous's arms, but still can't defeat him. Nowhere does she prove to be the better fighter and nowhere does she outduel him, evidence enough by her being on her back in the last scan and having the Clone chase off Grievous. Failing to defeat and being saved from death by Clones =/= Billaba is a better fighter than Grievous." 

What? Depa tagged him with the Force and cut off two of his hands. By comparison, Grievous only landed one hit, which was a slice to the back. She was only losing because she was organic and getting carved in the back will actively hinder her while Grievous losing two of his hands would not simply because he's a cyborg. It's hilarious that you claim she didn't outfight him yet post scans that debunk your claims.

"It literally doesn't matter. Kenobi is the only person in this whole list who has actually killed Grievous. Everyone else you mentioned only fought him, none of them proving better." 

Kenobi killing Grievous is completely worthless whe  he did so under extremely favourable circumstances, was still hardpressed to defend himself, and wasn't convincing enough in his performance to persuade Grievous that he couldn't win. 

"Obi-Wan having advantages in the fight doesn't make his win less impressive or suddenly mean that his actual defeat of Grievous is <<<< other characters who only ever managed to fight Grievous and nothing else. That's some plain stupidity if you think so."

Yes, it literally does. Are you trolling at this point? Winning a fight with advantages isn't representative of your actual abilities because you didn't win the fight purely based on your own skill. Circumstances were in play that caused the win. And in Kenobi's case, he didn't even win. He gained the upper hand with max effort, and Grievous still thought Kenobi was going to lose. By comparison, all the other characters have performed in a way that would indicate that they are better than Grievous. Kenobi has done zero to suggest that. 

In fact, if a heavily disadvantaged Grievous is still only slightly below a prime Kenobi, who is also inferior to people who struggle against Grievous' noticeable inferiors, it's clear that under even circumstances, Grievous is just better. 

"I guess Maul isn't actually more skilled than Qui-Gon because he had advantages over him during their fight. Good to know." 

At what point? In the final part? Yes, duh, that's not concrete proof that Qui-Gon was inferior, because Maul did not win in an even contest. Qui-Gon was exhausted, and Maul had a form advantage. What IS proof that Maul is more skilled, is that he was beating Qui-Gon+Kenobi earlier and was rapidly driving Qui-Gon back on Tatooine.  

"Which means absolutely nothing. Not even gonna bother responding to the other quotes if this is what you choose to end on| Why should the subjective views of a cyborg who sees himself as above all Jedi be taken seriously at all? That's right, it shouldn't. Listing that as a reason for why Kenobi's defeat of Grievous is less impressive is, again, false and asinine." 

The fact that Kenobi's circumstantial performance against Grievous wasn't good enough to convince Grievous that he was going to lose, speaks volumes. By Comparison, Grievous on Vassek openly acknowledged the fact that he was losing to Fisto, when MagnaGuards arrived and surrounded Fisto: 

"How quickly power can change hands. Surrender and I promise you will die quickly." 

-- Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Lair of Grievous 

The combination of all the other facts + this statement from Grievous indisputably paint a poor picture for Kenobi. 

"Wrong. In three of their main fights out of what, four total, Grievous didn't beat Kenobi once. The idea that he creamed him, let alone creamed him repeatedly, is both false and asinine. Watch the show if you don't believe me| I guess we're gonna ignore the many times Grievous couldn't defeat Obi-Wan in TCW| What evidence is that? The times Grievous "repeatedly creamed" Obi-Wan in TCW but was on the losing end of most of their fights and had to run away" 

Again, the sheer ignorance in your arguments is astounding. These are garbage assertions, have you even seen TCW? 

In season 2, Grievous floors Kenobi after a grand total of 6 seconds of fighting. Then after allowing Kenobi to recover, he has him pinned down in another 5 seconds of on-and-off fighting(by comparison, Koth was able to maneuver himself out of being backed into a wall by Grievous, as was Kenobi against Vader on Mustafar). Then, Kenobi holds his own for 9 seconds in extreme close quarters(which hinders Grievous), but is in desperation while doing so(according to the episode guide). After using the Force to disarm Grievous, the latter tackles Kenobi despite being completely unarmed, while Kenobi is combat-ready and indeed has him at bladepoint. Later, Kenobi matches Grievous for 12 seconds(3 of which was spent in a bladelock, so actually 9) before getting slammed away: 

https://youtu.be/JeuZz6J5tvc

In season 2, Kenobi deprives Grievous of one blade but then loses the duel after 9 seconds of fighting, despite Grievous having been caught off-guard to begin with: 

https://youtu.be/WYREb_-EXuc

In season 3, Grievous floors Kenobi in 6 seconds, then proceeds to physically ragdoll him. Afterwards, Kenobi Force Pushes Grievous when his guard is down and he runs away:

https://youtu.be/6m5VvMJFbRE

In season 5, Grievous legit two-shots Kenobi: 

https://youtu.be/m1BqZzIWSW0

Consistently, when Grievous isn't hindered, caught off-guard, or trying to escape, he either stomps Kenobi or takes him down in under 7 seconds. As usual, you're wrong. Grievous creamed Kenobi throughout TCW. In ROTS, Kenobi with max effort only gained the upper hand over an extremely disadvantaged Grievous and still wasn't convincing enough to make Grievous think he would lose. 

"Ahsoka managed to defeat three Magnaguards. Ahsoka > Anakin confirmed. Thanks for that. Nahdar Vebb was able to defeat many Magnaguards with ease. Vebb > Anakin and Obi-Wan confirmed. Common sense right there." 

Nope. Ahsoka defeated 2 MagnaGuards, and cheapshotted the 3rd. Collectively, they were forcing her back. Moreover, these are TCW MagnaGuards, which are notoriously nerfed. In fact, they're not even Jedi Knight level: 

"IG-100 droids serve as bodyguards for top Separatist leaders. These deadly droids are fast, tough, and can keep fighting even after their heads are cut off. Battling them is a tough task even for an experienced Jedi Knight."  

-- The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia

"These implacable droids guarded key Separatist leaders and proved tough opponents for the Jedi Knights, striking with their deadly electostaffs."

-- StarWars.com: Databank 

In TCW, they're incredibly weak. Single commando droids have performed better against Anakin than MagnaGuards. Comparing them to the ROTS guards is extremely disingenuous, and in no way invalidates the fact that ROTS Kenobi is inferior to ROTS Anakin who struggled to overcome IG-102. 

"Not only are you wrong, I'm gonna go through and tell you why you're wrong. Mundi only ever fought Grievous in Legends continuity. You can't scale Canon Plo Koon, which this thread is using, to be better than him because those events never happened in Canon. Not only that, Mundi never in their fight proved he was the better fighter. Here's the entire fight. If Mundi had proved better, we would have actually seen him defeat Grievous. An inconclusive fight =/= Mundi is a better fighter than Grievous." 

Not only am I right, but you failed spectacularly in trying to explain why I'm wrong. This isn't canon Plo, and yes Mundi did. You prove your narrowness of mind with the statement that not winning a fight means you can't prove a better fighter therein. Reality is, Mundi held off Grievous for well over 2 entire off-screen minutes while the ARC troopers were on their way, despite being considerably disadvantaged. If it took that long for Grievous to overcome Mundi while the latter was both exhausted, holding an unfamiliar blade, and had a form disadvantage, then it logically follows that an unhindered Mundi would perform far better under even circumstances. And if he was already close to Grievous under negative circumstances, then with those heavy disadvantages removed, he will be better. 

"Next is Koth. Not only does Koth not beat Grievous, he's immediately forced on the defensive and only is able to launch a Force Push once grievous relented and backed away. Landing a single Force Push once the enemy stops fighting =/= Koth is a better fighter than Grievous." 

It's the same case here. Koth fought Grievous for 18 seconds, despite being injured, using only the injured arm the entire time, being limited in movement by the MagnaGuards who surrounded him, and having his focus distracted by them. To top it off, Koth started the duel off at a disadvantage, as Grievous attacked him when he was off-guard. Koth wasn't losing either, he was winning. He dodged a total of 10 blows, and maneuvered himself out of being pressed against a wall. Him being driven back is not indicative of anything, since for all we know, Koth could use a passive form like Makashi or Soresu. 

If a disadvantaged Koth is already better than Grievous, Koth under even circumstances would perform that much better. 

"Finally we have Kit Fisto. The only one of these Jedi to actually perform well against Grievous. Despite this, despite only cutting off one hand, despite Force Pushing him to the ground, Kit still didn't defeat Grievous." 

Fisto didn't defeat him when Grievous was floored because he clearly wasn't worried. After sending Grievous to the ground, making him completely vulnerable, Fisto just stands there and grins, even allowing Grievous to get back up and mount a counter-attack. In fact, the entire first portion of the fight that ensued afterwards was simply Grievous repeatedly attacking Fisto who was defending himself WHILE MOVING FORWARD. Simply standing absolutely in place, not giving any ground when someone is attacking you is indicative of superiority. Fisto went above and beyond that. 

"This, coupled by the fact that Kit's style is a clear advantage going against multiple weapons and blades, means that his 'victory' over Grievous isn't impressive, according to you. Having advantages against an opponent and winning via those advantages is less impressive than just fighting someone and nothing else. Not winning or losing, simply fighting them. So Kit not defeating Grievous but doing well via his advantages =/= a better fighter than Grievous." 

Wrong, Shi-Cho is at a disadvantage in lightsaber combat: 

"Because the ancient Jedi did not have lightsaber-wielding enemies, Form I does not address the lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat."

-- Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

A disadvantaged Fisto was casually beating Grievous. The first quote clearly refers to when Grievous received his MagnaGuards as reinforcements, and the second contradicts the actual film, plus the episode guide:

"Fisto shears off one of Grievous' hands, reclaiming that lightsaber. He then begins to overpower the general, at which point Grievous' bodyguards enter the fray. Fisto is outnumbered. But just then, Arsix arrives in the Jedi starfighter. Kit leaps aboard the fighter as it flies away." 

-- Lair of Grievous: Episode Guide 

"Tell that to Coleman Trebor and Even Piell" 

What? Ignoring the fact that both these Jedi were taken off-guard at the time of their death, even if they were weak(which, they're not), that would make them the exception, not the rule. While we're on the topic, both of these Jedi are better than Anakin and Obi-Wan. They scale off of AOTC Fisto, who is better than Grievous who is better than Anakin and Obi-Wan. 

"To say Vader is weaker than Prime Kenobi who is weaker than Fisto who is weaker than Koon is more then ludicrous and utterly baseless. You can't find one feat for the Jedi that would allow them to survive being oneshot with the Force by a morals off Vader, you'll just sit and hide behind your quotes that don't support your position and your scaling that doesn't work and is based on nothing but headcanon, baseless claims, and the clear absence of common sense and logic."

You've failed again. I know these facts will make you angry, and refute your preconceived narrative, but that won't alter reality. According to all the valid evidence, Vader cannot solo. In fact, he'd probably lose to either Jedi. Logic, facts and scaling just don't agree with you, no matter how long you deny it. 

Tenebrous solos, Vader is unnecessary.

Avatar image for kilius
Kilius

1892

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lord_tenebrous:

- Fighting on the narrow walkway, and keeping the bout in close quarters, which impeded Grievous' fighting style

Grievous isn't an agility based fighter. In all his fights, be it Dooku, Corusaunt, Hypori, or any of his TCW fights, he comes at you in a straight line. Close quarters offers no advantage to either side. It's Grievous's fault and shortcoming as a duelist for following an not using his reach to his advantage.

- Knowledge of Grievous' style

Goes both ways.

- Grievous becoming enraged and subsequently losing focus

Because he couldn't pierce Kenobi's defense. He rope a doped him. That's how Kenobi's style works. It's the fighter's responsibility to keep his composer even in the face of adversity. It's not Kenobi's fault Grievous has shitty mental fortitude.

"OBI-WAN is hardpressed to defend himself against the deadly onslaught."

Name one person not heavily pressured by Grievous.

Dooku?

"There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

But then, Dooku had kept some secrets to himself. Just in case. " - LoE

And Dooku has even more of a knowledge advantage over Grievous having literally trained him from the ground up and knowing all his shortcomings.

Mace Windu?

"Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing." - LoE

"Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analzyed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him." - RotS Novel

Fisto?

"He turned his body side-ways so that he could fight the Jedi on either side of him with two lightsabers each. It took all that the two Jedi had to hold off Grievous' advances." - The Clone Wars: Grievous Attacks!

To top it off, after shoving Kenobi away, Grievous still thought he was going to win:

Denial. Also, he was talking about the battle, when he said army or not. Clone trooper reinforcements arrived but they were being slaughtered much to Kenobi's dismay and Grieovus's revelry.

And he literally runs away one-second latter. Grievous can't handle one measly Force push? Wimp. Just anticipate it next time and keep dueling. Nah he was overmatched and his big ego knew it.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

6089

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@kilius:

"Grievous isn't an agility based fighter. In all his fights, be it Dooku, Corusaunt, Hypori, or any of his TCW fights, he comes at you in a straight line. Close quarters offers no advantage to either side. It's Grievous's fault and shortcoming as a duelist for following an not using his reach to his advantage." 

Being an acrobatic fighter isn't the sole reason anyone would be disadvantaged in close quarters. The source states that Grievous has a ranged fighting style, which is reinforced by the old CW series in which Grievious is a very active fighter. Regardless, the source has spoken. If Grievous isn't comfortable or at his best on a narrow walkway and in close quarters, so be it. That's a disadvantage he had during the fight. 

"Goes both ways." 

Yes, but it especially disrupts Grievous because his style relies heavily on its randomity and unpredictability. Obi-Wan knowing what he'll do negates his unorthodox technique.  

"Because he couldn't pierce Kenobi's defense. He rope a doped him. That's how Kenobi's style works. It's the fighter's responsibility to keep his composer even in the face of adversity. It's not Kenobi's fault Grievous has shitty mental fortitude." 

No, the source states that he became enraged due to losing his other hand. It does not matter whose fault it is, only that it happened. Fact is, Grievous' anger caused him to lose focus and become sloppy, which enabled Kenobi to take another hand. 

"Name one person not heavily pressured by Grievous." 

You misunderstand my point. If someone hardpresses you in a fight, they're close to you in fighting ability. If someone performs a certain way under disadvantageous circumstances, it logically follows that under even circumstances, they'd perform a lot better. So, if a heavily disadvantaged Grievous still closely-matched Kenobi, it logically follows that Grievous without those disadvantages would be better than Kenobi. 

Also, in regard to Mace vs Grievous, that's hardly a legitimate showing. Grievous used his computers to replicate Mace's offensive, so in essence Mace was briefly fighting himself. That's no more of a skill showing than Iron Man using Friday to beat Cap in Civil War. 

As for the bit about Fisto and Nahdar, that's contradictory. If a heavily disadvantaged Grievous could still push Nahdar+Fisto to their max limits, then in a 1v1 Fisto should have been stomped since he was already losing badly with a number of circumstances in his favour. But that didn't happen. Instead, Fisto was pretty decisively beating Grievous in a very one-sided match. The actual episode overrules the secondary source. 

"Denial. Also, he was talking about the battle, when he said army or not. Clone trooper reinforcements arrived but they were being slaughtered much to Kenobi's dismay and Grieovus's revelry."

Maybe it was to some extent, but considering the fact that he openly admitting that he was losing against Kit, the fact that he still thought Kenobi was doomed says a lot. And no, he wasn't referring to the course of the battle. Grievous was on the run, in hiding. If the Republic found him, it was bad news.  Hence why he said "Army or not." And he said "You must realize, YOU are doomed." Grievous with two blades was 100% confident that Kenobi was going to lose the fight, it's clear that he regained his focus at that point. Would he have? Probably not, given that Kenobi was already gaining the edge before Grievous lost focus. But again, it's quite telling. 

"And he literally runs away one-second latter. Grievous can't handle one measly Force push? Wimp. Just anticipate it next time and keep dueling. Nah he was overmatched and his big ego knew it." 

He ran away because the Force Push made him drop his remaining lightsabers. He's not going to face Kenobi unarmed for pete's sake. Plus, he needed to get away in general before the Republic cut off his escape. 

By feats, General Grievous is simply better than Obi-Wan. By comparison, Eeth Koth, Depa Billaba, Kit Fisto, and Ki-Adi Mundi have all proven that they're better than Grievous. Which, except for Depa, just makes sense anyway since they're all older than Kenobi and have had far more time to hone their skills. Especially in Mundi and Koth's case. Talent only goes so far. I wasn't quite pleased with Depa's outperforming Kenobi, since iirc she's younger, but that's the way it is I suppose. She must be more talented.

Avatar image for greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

7033

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#45  Edited By Greysentinel365

Grievous fights Eeth on a catwalk

Hindered

Grievous was backed against a wall when Adi attacked

Hindered

Grievous fights fights Depa near a ledge.

Hindered

Grievous is hindered against Fisto smoke or no. It's stated in the episode.

Loading Video...

"In your condition you need your rest"

The answer is that GG is always hindered by even the most vague confinement. And all showings against him are inadmissible.

Problem solved.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

6089

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Koth's catwalk was twice the size of Kenobi's, and it's implied that Grievous with 2 blades isn't as environmentally restricted in that regard.

Yes, when Adi was beating Grievous, she had an environmental advantage. I've said this before.

Grievous was on the ledge only at the end, irrelevent and that's not even the same as a narrow catwalk.

Worthless filler dialogue that is common throughout TCW. Grievous was injured in purely mechanical areas and was repaired, "you need your rest" is a common phrase that is applicable only to organics. TCW has also used erroneous phrases such as "God-forsaken" and "hell." Means nothing.

Grievous with 4 blades is hindered by a very specific environment, a narrow walkway.

Avatar image for onlyoneempereor
OnlyOneEmpereor

3272

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Vader solos

Avatar image for yousufkhan1212
YousufKhan1212

2902

Forum Posts

68

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

Team 2 wins.

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

20126

Forum Posts

58564

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

“Considering you've been on this site for so long, I was expecting a competent, challenging reply. Instead, I got outdated YouTube-tier arguments that defeat themselves. Most disappointing.”

Good thing I’ve seen you post since you joined and already know that you’re arguments are nothing short of shit tier. Case in point being hiding behind “muh scaling” and random statements/quotes that both don’t support your faulty argument but also are contradicted by actual feats and on-panel evidence.

Came into this “debate” knowing I was going against someone akin to a troll. As you can tell I wasn’t surprised by the end result.

Keep up that headcanon though. Might have a career making some shitty fanfics or something.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

6089

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Concession accepted.