Perpetua, due to far surperior feats. She surpasses him in raw power by far. She easily could hold an infinite-D multiverse in her hand, while Beyonder's best feat was to shake an infinite-D multiverse. That's clearly an difference in power/authority. Both are vastly above infinite-D, but Perpetua has clearly the feat advantage. And her feats and statements don't contradict themselves.
Perpetua, due to far surperior feats. She surpasses him in raw power by far. She easily could hold an infinite-D multiverse in her hand, while Beyonder's best feat was to shake an infinite-D multiverse. That's clearly an difference in power/authority. Both are vastly above infinite-D, but Perpetua has clearly the feat advantage. And her feats and statements don't contradict themselves.
@yasindermann: Multiverse is a drop of water to the Beyonder
From fiction to fiction, a multiverse construct always varys. Don't you understand that? Beyonder would be an ant in the suggsverse raw powerwise, since it's far bigger than marvels. Perpetuas 6th dimension is also far above infinite-dimensional.
PRB snaps. I have his power as = Bryonders, who when Channeled properly, oblitrated the marvel Multiverse and recreated it (well, Dr Doom/MM with their powers) so to Me, that puts PRB in the same category of power as Luci or Michael, although he qould lose to both because hes a dummy and doesnt know how to wield such power.
Just my opinion tho. Its hard to have an accurate opinion when talking about beings beyond the concepts of space/time when we ourselves are bound by those laws.
perpetua's best feat was tearing pieces from the overvoid/monitor-mind and creating the brothers and having the potential to destroy beings similar to her level. she can literally do this again, against the beyond-realm.
perpetua's best feat was tearing pieces from the overvoid/monitor-mind and creating the brothers and having the potential to destroy beings similar to her level. she can literally do this again, against the beyond-realm.
@norsewinter: As a big Beyonder fan, I must say, he definetly lacks feats, compared to other infinite-D or above characters. He isn't that impressive raw power wise.
@norsewinter: As a big Beyonder fan, I must say, he definetly lacks feats, compared to other infinite-D or above characters. He isn't that impressive raw power wise.
beyonder at least, is not some externo-cosmic dependent entity like literally all witches and voyagers from when they cry with the exclusion of the creator. who is the only thing in wtc that actually embodies its respective dimension.
and he at least beyonder has actual feats and reliable statements to gauge from as opposed to when you compare him to lovecraft wank.
the problem is that he stems from an era where writing multiversal characters was pretty new, and beyonder's writers pioneered the idea during the time of his creation. as such, his story reads off as some sort of bad inconsistent hash n mash script, written incompetently leading to beyonder's low-showings, flaws, etc.
killing beyonder leads to the death of a multiverse far greater than an infinite dimensional multiverse. thats actually tremendously impressive beyonder is, when terms of relative power scale regardless of how strong one thinks he is.
@norsewinter: As a big Beyonder fan, I must say, he definetly lacks feats, compared to other infinite-D or above characters. He isn't that impressive raw power wise.
beyonder at least, is not some externo-cosmic dependent entity like literally all witches and voyagers from when they cry with the exclusion of the creator. and he at least has actual feats and reliable statements to gauge from as opposed to lovecraft wank.
the problem is that he stems from an era where writing multiversal characters was pretty new, and beyonder's writers pioneered the idea during the time of his creation.
The Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse
As well as his battles with Celestials and MM affecting the entire multiverse just as a byproduct.
Though I really am just going with Beyonder because he has feats for now, I am curious what Perpetua is going do further in the series as the most impressive thing she has done so far was create the Multiverse.
Do you consider the power to undo and create a Multiverse a superior type of power to have, over the total energy output potential of millions of Multiverses combined? Perpetua has the power to make Physics in normal and not normal ways, without physics already being there. But The Beyonder seems to need physics already there to play with it.
I am curious to know what users think of The Beyonder saying Eternity and The Phoenix Force had the power to destroy him in a surprise attack.
The Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse
As well as his battles with Celestials and MM affecting the entire multiverse just as a byproduct.
Though I really am just going with Beyonder because he has feats for now, I am curious what Perpetua is going do further in the series as the most impressive thing she has done so far was create the Multiverse.
@michaeljulius: to be fair, beyonder didnt even know what time was. and this was addressed two times, first when he incarnated as a human and when he later described here or when were irrelevant.
beyonder has inconsistent statements of being beyond physics and being defined by it. but it is there.
@norsewinter: I agree, that was my argument in a few other threads recently. He is naive and makes statements that turn out to be incorrect, or based on assumption. I like to hear what others have to say on the subject matter when scans are posted in regards to power statements The Beyonder has made.
My issue here is the assumption that The Beyonder can undo and forge a Multiverse on his own, when there is no physics already present to work with. Can The Beyonder generate obscure and "weird" physics in an unnatural and different than classic Multiverse manner? The Beyonder being millions of times the power of the Multiverse was countered by himself twicesaying Eternity and The Phoenix Force had the power to destroy him. But, that was in regard to a surprise attack .
To get technical, that means, logically, that his defensive capabilities are multiversal + and not his durability without intent to put a shield up. The Beyonder is not omnipresent and can be surprised. His actual physical raw power feats are even less, maxed via feats at merely shaking the Multiverse when he was fighting.
In my opinion, Hypertime in DC is infinitely layered, branched and flowing. Perpetua making Hypertime and the notion that the comic talks about her and Hypertime more than once is the evidence required that Perpetua making just one multiverse was her job to begin with. Also, that she is capable of whatever she wants to make, however she wants to make it. Hypertime > Millions of Multiverses.
My issue here is the assumption that The Beyonder can undo and forge a Multiverse on his own, when there is no physics already present to work with. Can The Beyonder generate obscure and "weird" physics in an unnatural and different than classic Multiverse manner? The Beyonder being millions of times the power of the Multiverse was countered by himself twicesaying Eternity and The Phoenix Force had the power to destroy him. But, that was in regard to a surprise attack .
And it even makes sense, considering how inconsistent different writers for 1 character are, especially im marvel and DC. Most of Beyonder's inconsistent feats are not from the original writer of the Beyonder and secret wars Jim Shooter. I think they just wanted to nerf Beyonder a little bit, even before his post-retcon. Because then there would be no storyline at all. Beyonder would just wave his hand. I think his sudden nerf was just because of the plot.
To get technical, that means, logically, that his defensive capabilities are multiversal + and not his durability without intent to put a shield up. The Beyonder is not omnipresent and can be surprised. His actual physical raw power feats are even less, maxed via feats at merely shaking the Multiverse when he was fighting.
Then his durability would make no sense. How does an infinite-dimensional being destroy an literal multiverse that is far above infinite-dimensional, which was stated in the secret wars storyline? Makes no sense at all.
Writers should really stick to the original writer's feats.
Professor Xavier can explode the brains and much more powerful individuals, lift and crush buildings and so on. Punch him in the throat and he is going to die. The fact that Beyonder himself felt that The Phoenix Force and Eternity can destroy him, without his defenses up, means his defenses are what drives his durability and not whatever his casual self is.
That is a super power. His shields are that powerful and his defenses are multiversal plus. Fighting beings on par with The Phoenix Force who can be in more than one timezone and place at once is really the end of The Beyonder. It says nothing about his energy output power potential and what it actually is when the statement is made he is millions of times as powerful as the Multiverse, but the sum of the Multiverse and the Phoenix force both can greatly harm him in a surprise attack. This isn't a question of who can blast through his defenses when they are up, there are no rules to this fight. This is actually expounded on when the Beyonder's were defeated by Time in the more recent era.
It is a question of who has superior power sets. The Beyonder is immensely vulnerable to surprise attacks and he's said twice that the Phoenix Force and the sum of the Multiverse is enough to end him, maybe. Logically, you can conclude The Phoenix Force is capable of harming him based on that at the very least. What happens when a reality warper who can split himself into multiple time zones throughout history and retain that power, actually goes to try to fight The Beyonder? And when that reality warper is significantly more powerful than The Phoenix Force? That is game over for The Beyonder, that's his weakness. The question of who can wrestle 1v1 isn't the core of the battles here, it is who would likely win in various scenarios.
Perpetua generated Hypertime, held hypertime and is timeless, she can exist, generate and make her powers function in whatever manner she needs to. This is what actually defeated The Beyonder's, their being stuck in the moment and not being able to fight in multiple times at once, but only in higher dimensional states of being.
Perpetua's powers are far, far past Eternity and the Phoenix Force and she handles Hypertime like its a basketball. She not only has the power required to greatly harm him, but can fight and generate the element that caused the near- downfall of the Beyonder in the first place.
Then his durability would make no sense. How does an infinite-dimensional being destroy an literal multiverse that is far above infinite-dimensional, which was stated in the secret wars storyline? Makes no sense at all.
Writers should really stick to the original writer's feats.
@michaeljulius: Like I said, for me, that is just stupid plot armour. After secret wars, the writers realized that he was too powerful. In secret wars, Beyonder was basically meant to be inveitable (In an non-omnipotent sense). That was the whole point of secret wars 2, which was stated several times. So, logically, there wasn't a being near him, when he was meant to be inveitable. But after secret wars 2, it wasn't the goal anymore to show how strong the Beyonder is, of course. An major villain must be defeated at some point. I would have liked when his charater arc would be over at the end of secret wars 2. Marvel literally ruined him.
To the topic ''Beyonder would lose, if he would get caught by an surprise attack'':
Beyonder looked quiet surprised in the second picture. Beyonder literally stomped her, without his defenses up, like you said.
And still, when he can get destroyed by an surprise attack, why didn't Living Tribunal, Eternity or any other cosmic being do that?
So, to be simple, the only reason Beyonder lost fights was because of different writers. Jim Shooter stated that the whole goal of secret wars 2 was to make Beyonder omnipotent, without being omnipotent.
The Living Tribunal was defeated by 3 aliens who could not exist in multiple time points at once, which means neither can The Living Tribunal or Eternity. Eternity is the sum of the physical Multiverse and Infinity is Time.
Infinity vs Beyonder is a much better topic to discuss, due to her power set being something the Beyonder may have some vulnerability to. This is of course, as you and I are discussing, theory and fan-opinion. We simply don't know what his real limits and vulnerabilities are. We can only go on his statements and try our best to infer what the possibilities are. In my very subjective opinion, The Beyonder's powers are based on his mind actively putting up a defense or attack. He is sadly stuck in the moment in time, despite being able to move freely throughout it, he seems to be unable to be Multi-positional. Limited only to Multi-dimensional. He cannot fight now and also a billion years in the past. He is limited by Time.
A being with the power of The Phoenix Force and Eternity, who can fight in multi-position, should be able to do serious harm to him. Someone like Perpetua though, who crafts Hypertime and has more power than Eternity, should be able to absolutely devastate the Beyonder in a straight brawl.
The Living Tribunal was defeated by 3 aliens who could not exist in multiple time points at once, which means neither can The Living Tribunal or Eternity. Eternity is the sum of the physical Multiverse and Infinity is Time.
Infinity vs Beyonder is a much better topic to discuss, due to her power set being something the Beyonder may have some vulnerability to. This is of course, as you and I are discussing, theory and fan-opinion. We simply don't know what his real limits and vulnerabilities are. We can only go on his statements and try our best to infer what the possibilities are. In my very subjective opinion, The Beyonder's powers are based on his mind actively putting up a defense or attack. He is sadly stuck in the moment in time, despite being able to move freely throughout it, he seems to be unable to be Multi-positional. Limited only to Multi-dimensional. He cannot fight now and also a billion years in the past. He is limited by Time.
A being with the power of The Phoenix Force and Eternity, who can fight in multi-position, should be able to do serious harm to him. Someone like Perpetua though, who crafts Hypertime and has more power than Eternity, should be able to absolutely devastate the Beyonder in a straight brawl.
Then we should just let this discussion be.
In my opinion, it comes down on how you're interpret Beyonder, because of his inconsistence. One time, he was stated to be beyond space-time (By Jim shooter and not by the Beyonder himself). So, because of that statement, you can say that Beyonder is an non-physical concept/multiverse, and then, it was stated that Beyonder embodies an physical multiverse and that time is an weakness of him. At that point, you can't really tell how strong he is.
Also, we should also not ignore the fact that power scaling rules always work otherwise from fiction to fiction. It was stated quiet often that Living Tribunal is beyond all physics, so how is Beyonder able to harm him, if his power are based on manipulate physics? The only logical explanation at that point would be that Beyonder is really beyond all physics and can warp weaker non-physical beings, or Living Tribunal isn't above space-time and Beyonder isn't too. Marvel is quiet complicated when it comes to power scaling. There are many ways to interpret marvel characters powerwise.
@michaeljulius: It is hard to say what interpretation is true at that point, since it's marvel. They use many descriptions/statements to hype a character up.
I've never seen Shooters comments on Beyonder being above time and space. Can you show me that? Not saying its not there, just never read that statement before from any Marvel authorities before.
The Beyonder isn't above time and space as per his feats and in comic statements. When an author explains the lore of a character, or the backstory, or something unseen, or the motives of what the character is truly, then you can accept it. But, for example, if Stan Lee says Wolverine has four claws and is 9ft tall, but the comics all clearly show he has 3 claws and statements are made that he is only 5'3 in the comic book, then you ignore Stan Lee entirely. Author statements only go so far, when they contradict what was seen, you ignore it.
However, there is then the problem writers like Grant Morrison faced where his editors literally ignored his writing and altered some of his work in pre-production, after he'd handed the finalized version to the Editors. The comic ends up being a little different than intended. In that case, you listen to the author and not the comic book statements, because its his story and not the editors.
Either way, yes, I agree this is all subjective and its nice to theorize sometimes and clearly express possibility and not objectivity.
The Living Tribunal was defeated by 3 aliens who could not exist in multiple time points at once, which means neither can The Living Tribunal or Eternity. Eternity is the sum of the physical Multiverse and Infinity is Time.
Infinity vs Beyonder is a much better topic to discuss, due to her power set being something the Beyonder may have some vulnerability to. This is of course, as you and I are discussing, theory and fan-opinion. We simply don't know what his real limits and vulnerabilities are. We can only go on his statements and try our best to infer what the possibilities are. In my very subjective opinion, The Beyonder's powers are based on his mind actively putting up a defense or attack. He is sadly stuck in the moment in time, despite being able to move freely throughout it, he seems to be unable to be Multi-positional. Limited only to Multi-dimensional. He cannot fight now and also a billion years in the past. He is limited by Time.
A being with the power of The Phoenix Force and Eternity, who can fight in multi-position, should be able to do serious harm to him. Someone like Perpetua though, who crafts Hypertime and has more power than Eternity, should be able to absolutely devastate the Beyonder in a straight brawl.
Then we should just let this discussion be.
In my opinion, it comes down on how you're interpret Beyonder, because of his inconsistence. One time, he was stated to be beyond space-time (By Jim shooter and not by the Beyonder himself). So, because of that statement, you can say that Beyonder is an non-physical concept/multiverse, and then, it was stated that Beyonder embodies an physical multiverse and that time is an weakness of him. At that point, you can't really tell how strong he is.
Also, we should also not ignore the fact that power scaling rules always work otherwise from fiction to fiction. It was stated quiet often that Living Tribunal is beyond all physics, so how is Beyonder able to harm him, if his power are based on manipulate physics? The only logical explanation at that point would be that Beyonder is really beyond all physics and can warp weaker non-physical beings, or Living Tribunal isn't above space-time and Beyonder isn't too. Marvel is quiet complicated when it comes to power scaling.
I've never seen Shooters comments on Beyonder being above time and space. Can you show me that? Not saying its not there, just never read that statement before from any Marvel authorities before.
The Beyonder isn't above time and space as per his feats and in comic statements. When an author explains the lore of a character, or the backstory, or something unseen, or the motives of what the character is truly, then you can accept it. But, for example, if Stan Lee says Wolverine has four claws and is 9ft tall, but the comics all clearly show he has 3 claws and statements are made that he is only 5'3 in the comic book, then you ignore Stan Lee entirely. Author statements only go so far, when they contradict what was seen, you ignore it.
However, there is then the problem writers like Grant Morrison faced where his editors literally ignored his writing and altered some of his work in pre-production, after he'd handed the finalized version to the Editors. The comic ends up being a little different than intended. In that case, you listen to the author and not the comic book statements, because its his story and not the editors.
Either way, yes, I agree this is all subjective and its nice to theorize sometimes and clearly express possibility and not objectivity.
The Living Tribunal was defeated by 3 aliens who could not exist in multiple time points at once, which means neither can The Living Tribunal or Eternity. Eternity is the sum of the physical Multiverse and Infinity is Time.
Infinity vs Beyonder is a much better topic to discuss, due to her power set being something the Beyonder may have some vulnerability to. This is of course, as you and I are discussing, theory and fan-opinion. We simply don't know what his real limits and vulnerabilities are. We can only go on his statements and try our best to infer what the possibilities are. In my very subjective opinion, The Beyonder's powers are based on his mind actively putting up a defense or attack. He is sadly stuck in the moment in time, despite being able to move freely throughout it, he seems to be unable to be Multi-positional. Limited only to Multi-dimensional. He cannot fight now and also a billion years in the past. He is limited by Time.
A being with the power of The Phoenix Force and Eternity, who can fight in multi-position, should be able to do serious harm to him. Someone like Perpetua though, who crafts Hypertime and has more power than Eternity, should be able to absolutely devastate the Beyonder in a straight brawl.
Then we should just let this discussion be.
In my opinion, it comes down on how you're interpret Beyonder, because of his inconsistence. One time, he was stated to be beyond space-time (By Jim shooter and not by the Beyonder himself). So, because of that statement, you can say that Beyonder is an non-physical concept/multiverse, and then, it was stated that Beyonder embodies an physical multiverse and that time is an weakness of him. At that point, you can't really tell how strong he is.
Also, we should also not ignore the fact that power scaling rules always work otherwise from fiction to fiction. It was stated quiet often that Living Tribunal is beyond all physics, so how is Beyonder able to harm him, if his power are based on manipulate physics? The only logical explanation at that point would be that Beyonder is really beyond all physics and can warp weaker non-physical beings, or Living Tribunal isn't above space-time and Beyonder isn't too. Marvel is quiet complicated when it comes to power scaling.
Here. Last picture.
But anyway, I only theorize if my interpretations are backed up by contradicted on-screen feats. That Living Tribunal is beyond physics (or not) is proven alone by the fact that he is beyond all conceptual cosmic entities, that are based on physics. But then, suddenly, he get's beaten by beings who define physics (Contradiction). Marvel need's to get their shit straight sometimes. So, you can theoretically still argue that Beyonder is beyond physics, since he is able to beat LT, who is beyond physics (Comes down on interpretation). So, you still have an fundamental to argue that Beyonder is beyond physics at that point. The only logically explanation there is is that Beyonder is an non-physical reality warper. If not, LT should be logically able to destroy him with a blink.
No, no. The Beyond Realm is beyond Time and Space. That is a location. While he is the sum of the Beyond while there, that isn't the same as when he ventures to the Marvel primary Multiverse. He no longer is beyond time and space. Cyttorak's dimension is beyond Time and Space and so is the Dark Dimension. That doesn't make either of them untouchable by time manipulation and such.
No, no. The Beyond Realm is beyond Time and Space. That is a location. While he is the sum of the Beyond while there, that isn't the same as when he ventures to the Marvel primary Multiverse. He no longer is beyond time and space. Cyttorak's dimension is beyond Time and Space and so is the Dark Dimension. That doesn't make either of them untouchable by time manipulation and such.
Then there is the thing I don't understand: Why didn't Infinity try to do something against him, if time is a major weakness of him? That definelty would make sense. The Beyonder basically defines ''Beyond physics''. He is still the beyond-realm in the marvel multiverse, so that wouldn't make him less powerful. Beyonder isn't in the beyond-realm, he basically is the beyond-realm, which also means embody ''beyond physics''. During the time of Jim Shooter, there wasn't any evidance that time fazes the Beyonder. Infinity, a major weakness against him, didn't try to do anything against him. It would be likely more logical to say that Beyonder is beyond time and space at that point, since the evidance speaks for the fact that he is immune against time. If there's any chance the abstract would see a chance wining against him, they would take it, but there wasn't any. That's why they stood down.
Infinity wasn't present at the God council for a reason. Just bad writing and trying to make a new Godtier character and oops wait, his weakness is time, better leave out the entity that represents Time and hope nobody notices.
I understand what you are trying to say but the Beyonder is not beyond Physics, he simply has control of it. There is nothing at all to imply he is a concept above it. Such as Imagination itself, which can be whatever it wants to be even if it doesnt make sense logically with regard to Physics. The Beyonder cannot make 2+2=Fish
Mr. Mxyzptlk can, who in turn, is literally nothing in the way of power compared to a being of Creationism who makes the impossible happen. A thing beyond the limits of Imagination. The Beyonder hard limits at Physics. He has total control over it. Just an example there, trying to make an analogy and maybe I am doing a bad job with it.
It does actually matter and Beyonder has poor speed feats and cannot see in the future. His reaction time is terrible. The One from Beyond cannot react in Time? Oh goodness, as per this scan, any Eternity level reality warper with time control can defeat the Beyonder if they are able to surprise attack him. In a straight brawl, probably not.
In my opinion, if Infinity were really upset, she could take the Beyonder out. But, that's in a surprise attack. I am curious to see how time manipulation would affect the Beyonder in that era. We will never know, sadly.
Then there is the thing I don't understand: Why didn't Infinity try to do something against him, if time is a major weakness of him? That definelty would make sense. The Beyonder basically defines ''Beyond physics''. He is still the beyond-realm in the marvel multiverse, so that wouldn't make him less powerful. Beyonder isn't in the beyond-realm, he basically is the beyond-realm, which also means embody ''beyond physics''. During the time of Jim Shooter, there wasn't any evidance that time fazes the Beyonder. Infinity, a major weakness against him, didn't try to do anything against him. It would be likely more logical to say that Beyonder is beyond time and space at that point, since the evidance speaks for the fact that he is immune against time. If there's any chance the abstract would see a chance wining against him, they would take it, but there wasn't any. That's why they stood down.
@michaeljulius: Time wasn't a weakness of him, when Jim Shooter wrote the story's for him. Something as ''time weakness'' was never implied at that point. To create a weakness for him would make sense, considering how inveitable he was in secret wars. He was meant to have no weakness. It was implied that everything is his imagination. And now tell me why he can't let the impossible happen? Alone an infinite infinite above another infinite or being beyond space-time is physically impossible. So, why can't he make ''2+2=fish''? Fiction can be whatever it want's and can't be refuted with real life logic, unless it contradicts with debater logic. He imagines, which is an regard to physics....since a comic wouldn't work then, maybe? Of course it need's something like a story and dialogue. What do you expect? That he manipulates a white nothing in 9 issuses? After that logic, Destiny or other comic book characters wouldn't be above physical laws too, since they manipulate something, which is an regard to physics. Fictional logic. It can't work without proper human physical logic, still.
@michaeljulius: Time wasn't a weakness of him, when Jim Shooter wrote the story's for him. Something as ''time weakness'' was never implied at that point.
He couldn't react in time and never demonstrated omnipresence and time control at all.
To create a weakness for him would make sense, considering how inveitable he was in secret wars. He was meant to have no weakness. It was implied that everything is his imagination.
Where?
And now tell me why he can't let the impossible happen? Alone an infinite infinite above another infinite or being beyond space-time is physically impossible. So, why can't he make ''2+2=fish''?
Because he doesn't have the feats of it and was countered by a being who had particle physics as a super power.
Fiction can be whatever it want's and can't be refuted with real life logic, unless it contradicts with debater logic. He imagines, which is an regard to physics....since a comic wouldn't work then, maybe?
His imagination tells him how to play with physics. Not imagining new physics and breaking them. Cows with wings arent the same as breaking logic.
Of course it need's something like a story and dialogue. What do you expect? That he manipulates a white nothing in 9 issuses? After that logic, Destiny or other comic book characters wouldn't be above physical laws too, since they manipulate something, which is an regard to physics. Fictional logic. It can't work without proper human physical logic, still.
The white nothing is another Universe/multiverse and nothing special. It is just a higher-extra dimension outside of the primary Marvel Multiverse. It isn't Meta at all. White spaces don't mean the comic book page. A while area doesn't mean its the Over Monitor or anything like that.
Another Universe x7. That's a lot of talk about The Beyond not being anything Meta at all.
And Yes, he manipulates the white nothing because it is nothing. Owen fills it with his own Multiverse easily without any effort, because there is no resistence in the Beyond at the end of Secret Wars.
@michaeljulius: So, you say he has no feats like turning 2+2 into fish, while I posted physical feats far above ''2+2=fish?'' Alone the fact that he is the embodiment of an multiverse that consists out of dimensions infinite above the previous one is physically impossible, and ''2+2=fish'' should be a problem for him? LOL.
Nope, molecule man didn't only have the power to control molecules. And even if he had, do you know why he won?:
Because of that. Beyonder limited himself multiple times, until he had just a small fraction of his power. And do you know why molecule man could challenge him, even for a few seconds? Because molecule man had his power, because of that. And to say ''Molecule man could challenge him with energy attacks'' is pretty dumb, since energy is an dimensionless unit, and therefore contains no physics. Energy is an dimensionless unit. And BTW, pretty much all the rest you pointed out is invalid. I didn't talk about Meta. Where the hell did I talk about meta? There still isn't a contradiction about the Beyonder being NOT bound by physics during the time of Jim Shooter. Try better.
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