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#51 Posted by Supermanthor (20038 posts) - - Show Bio

@jko1 said:
@supermanthor said:
@jko1 said:

I need to look more into to Perpetua to say for sure.

The Griever losing to the Fantastic Four was PIS.

just like 90 % of fights takes place in morden marvel comics

Yea Marvel comics has gone a bit downhill since like 2016.

yup

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#52 Posted by Rajjar (1917 posts) - - Show Bio

@jko1 said:
@supermanthor said:
@jko1 said:

I need to look more into to Perpetua to say for sure.

The Griever losing to the Fantastic Four was PIS.

just like 90 % of fights takes place in morden marvel comics

Yea Marvel comics has gone a bit downhill since like 2016.

yup

Almost as bad as TOAA losing his omnipotence.

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#53 Posted by Au_141 (1042 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Kinda weird how both these characters came at around the same time. I was thinking they had a lot in common too

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#54 Posted by Supermanthor (20038 posts) - - Show Bio

@au_141: anyone who following both like me knows there are copying each others storylines recently

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#55 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio
@supermanthor said:

@au_141: anyone who following both like me knows there are copying each others storylines recently

@au_141 said:

@sungsam: Kinda weird how both these characters came at around the same time. I was thinking they had a lot in common too

If you look closely, Perpetua and Griever have a similar character design, at least in silhouette. They have long tall hat heads. And their clothes are both purple-dark color themed.

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And both came out around the same time. Something's up.

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#56 Posted by Supermanthor (20038 posts) - - Show Bio
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#57 Posted by Rijehu (1707 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I don't know if people realize this but, the concept of previous creations and universes isn't even new in DC. People sleep on Carey's run of Lucifer but he actually set the precedent for Morrison in a way. For instance, Carey was the first of the two to consider the void to be an actual canvas. Lucifer made a direct quote to this in his series. The only thing Morrison did was personify the void, but it was indeed already a concept used before.

Also, in regards to Perpetua being the creator of the previous multiverse, this is also something Carey touched on in his Lucifer series. The Silk Man for example, by Lucifer and his own confession was not from the current creation, but a "crude earlier creation". Lucifer perceived creations in the void not made by the Presence. The demon Cestis, who was trying to hijack the gateway in Lux, was of the Jin en Mok, beings from a much earlier Universe. She also stated this on panel. Apparently, the multiverse would have been destroyed as a side effect of her regaining her true form back. This is just a few example of there being universes and creations before and separate from DC.

The issue is that in Lucifer, he can't say whether creations are earlier or later than DC because of how the void works. He says time is meaningless in the void and as such, past present and futire hold no significance. "1+1 can not equal 2 if they never meet". This is why Silk Man had to travel the void consuming life from the universes and creations he cal across because he thought he was "escaping Death" since she had already claimed his universe sometime before. Lucifer reminds him that eventually all must meet Death as she is even in the void. (We know that Lucifer is foreshadowing since he erases silk man out of existence with a thought in a future panel, sending him to Death). But basically, earlier/later creations outside of DC (and by default, beings and creators of said creations) have always been a thing. This doesn't meant that Lucifer or any being lose their power of place in hierarchy, it's just that heirarchy or cosmology isn't as linear as we think it to be. Prime example, both Elaine and the Presence are supreme beings, despite us believing only one can be.

During the battle in Heaven, both the giants were usurping the power of the Presence...two beings were becoming supreme then despite how we feel about that.

Perpetua seems to be a massive Mother Demiurgic being from a previous creation. Similar to Synnar. She's considered a threat to the Omniverse because her power is probably imbued throughout it. While the term was never used in Vertigo, we know that Elaine and Lucifer essentially saved the equavelent of the Omniverse when they had to drop all existent multiverses into a pocket dimension to prevent destruction. I don't think we're seeing anything that hasn't been used before.

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#58 Posted by Au_141 (1042 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu: Nice. I wish people would talk more about the Lucifer/Sandman side of things more

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#59 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate.

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#60 Posted by ValBr111 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

Tie.

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#61 Edited by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

Already commented, but either a tie or Perpetua edges it out.

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#62 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

Perpetua is at least 6 ^ Levels above Quantum Multiversal at the moment.

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#63 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7690 posts) - - Show Bio

Perpetua barely has any feats, but from her statements alone, she would absolutely destroy Griever. Stalemate as of now.

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#64 Posted by Supermanthor (20038 posts) - - Show Bio
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#65 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7690 posts) - - Show Bio
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#66 Posted by Supermanthor (20038 posts) - - Show Bio
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#67 Posted by thor321 (1999 posts) - - Show Bio

didn't Griever killed Molecule Man when he was off guard???

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#68 Posted by rhistr (432 posts) - - Show Bio

The latest Justice League just had a Myx-focused issue with regards to Perpetua. She exists in the 6th dimension even beyond his perception, which--given how he talks about her--makes her a threat to him and the fifth dimension, too. Dimensional hierarchies are nonsense generally, but in this context, we can assume she's at least more powerful than Myx (and Batmite, as stated).

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#69 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhistr said:

The latest Justice League just had a Myx-focused issue with regards to Perpetua. She exists in the 6th dimension even beyond his perception, which--given how he talks about her--makes her a threat to him and the fifth dimension, too. Dimensional hierarchies are nonsense generally, but in this context, we can assume she's at least more powerful than Myx (and Batmite, as stated).

Well then? Does this mean you think Perpetua would win?

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#70 Edited by rhistr (432 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@rhistr said:

The latest Justice League just had a Myx-focused issue with regards to Perpetua. She exists in the 6th dimension even beyond his perception, which--given how he talks about her--makes her a threat to him and the fifth dimension, too. Dimensional hierarchies are nonsense generally, but in this context, we can assume she's at least more powerful than Myx (and Batmite, as stated).

Well then? Does this mean you think Perpetua would win?

I don't know enough about Griever to say. When it comes to multiversal power or above, direct on-panel matchups are usually the best to judge power, which we don't have yet. But given all of Myx's appearances are supposed to be canon now, if she's above WF Myx, I'd bank on Perpetua if I had to make a guess right now.

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#71 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7690 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhistr: Not really. He just says that he cannot perceive the 6th dimension, nowhere does he hint that Perpetua is stronger than him or other 5d imps. 6d beings have existed ever since post-crisis and Mxy has talked about them the same way he does with Perpetua and the 4 others but in the end, they were defeated by the JLA.

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#72 Edited by rhistr (432 posts) - - Show Bio

@rampagethefirst said:

@rhistr: Not really. He just says that he cannot perceive the 6th dimension, nowhere does he hint that Perpetua is stronger than him or other 5d imps. 6d beings have existed ever since post-crisis and Mxy has talked about them the same way he does with Perpetua and the 4 others but in the end, they were defeated by the JLA.

He never outright says it, but I would argue that he does hint at it. On page 11 he states that he "knows too well what you face--what we all face. The baddest mischief of all."

A minor side note, he also mentions that happenings in the 6th dimension are beyond his perception. In itself this means little besides the sixth dimension being a place he isn't in control of like the other five, seconded by how he takes effort just to open a door there. Perpetua created the 6th dimension, stated on-panel, in which only the "most powerful beings can reside." The monitors live there, but Perpetua created it. And, I guess, everything? Kind of unclear on that. Anyway, before the Source wall broke, Myx couldn't even go there. He did end up giving Supes the power to get there now, though, so who knows.

Looking back at my last response, I should have said it's implied she's more powerful than him rather than that we should assume it.

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#73 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7690 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhistr: So, it's a ball of speculation? okay.

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#74 Posted by rhistr (432 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhistr: So, it's a ball of speculation? okay.

Pretty much. Perpetua's too new and featless to have her in VS battles, IMO.

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#75 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2456 posts) - - Show Bio

I think we need a bit more feats from Perpetua to make a decent call on who would win, imo.

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#76 Posted by XSUPREMESKILLZX (135 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, the justice league comic is a lot more explicit in terms of how much stronger Perpetua is than Mxy than people are letting on. Mxy explicitly requiring “all his abilities” to even open a portal to this dimension, (and even this only being because the source wall is broken,) and the 6th dimension being exclusive to only “the most powerful beings” who essentially control the entire Multiverse (which in this case would include the 5th dimension) indicates pretty damn clearly that even the Three Brothers are entirely beyond Mxy. I”m not saying this is corroborated by feats, but I”m not sure that really matters given Mxy essentially concedes inferiority.

And Perpetua is vastly beyond the Three Brothers given that she is the most feared and powerful “super celestial” in the greater Omniverse and the Brothers had to get the rest of the super celestials to intervene to imprison her. She is literally the most powerful of a race of beings that looks over an infinity of Creations/Multiverses like DC (I.e. the Omniverse). I might take her, here.

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#77 Posted by mrtrickster (2986 posts) - - Show Bio

Perpetua ftw

based on cosmic standing and scale Perpetua is close to outerverse level

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#78 Posted by Supermanthor (20038 posts) - - Show Bio

Perpetua

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#80 Posted by jamespacker (578 posts) - - Show Bio

Perpetua STOMPS

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#81 Posted by SmoothSanta (2449 posts) - - Show Bio

Griever based on feats.

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#82 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7690 posts) - - Show Bio

Griever based on feats.

What feats?

OT: Perpetua stomps with her new feats.

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#83 Posted by SmoothSanta (2449 posts) - - Show Bio

@smoothsanta said:

Griever based on feats.

What feats?

OT: Perpetua stomps with her new feats.

I haven't actually seen her combat feats, just statements.

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#84 Posted by Sushmita (98 posts) - - Show Bio

So has she got new feats now?