Perpetua (DC) vs Griever at the End of All Things (Marvel)

Perpetua vs Griever at the End of All Things

Perpetua who is most feared to Infinite Omniversal Multiverses and is DC's Newest Multiversal Cosmic of 2019 fights Griever who also happens to be Marvel's Newest Multiversal Cosmic. Two potentially Infinite Dimensional beings.

Tie

Oh god. @sungsam what have you done :)

This changes a lot of things in the DC hierarchy.

@bdelloidgrain2: oh no change in comics ?

.... it's just an another Tuesday lol

Seeing this makes me believe Scott trying this jl run to be similar to Morrisons style ...

I agree.

Now as for who wins. Do we know if Griever at the End of All Things omniversal? It says on the Marvel wiki that she simply creates universes.

As for Perpetua, the scan clearly indicates her capabilities. We know she is at least multiversal.

I'm leaning more toward Perpetua on this one.

However, it will be interesting to see how she stacks up against other DC powerhouses and where she stands in comparison to characters like the Presence, Lucifer Morningstar, Michael Demiurgos, COIE Anti-Monitor, Thought Robot, Mxy, etc.

@supermanthor: @bdelloidgrain2:

Griever and Perpetua are actually a lot alike.

They're both newcomers to the DC and Marvel respective cosmic hierarchies, and their reveal literally sparks up some new realizations about both verses.

Perpetua is more feared and reviled than the Endless, Lucifer, Michael and the Monitors themselves. Mother of the Anti-Monitors and Over-Monitors and the World Forgers. She was sealed up in the Source Wall this whole freaking time. And it was stated that the Source Wall predated the very existence of time itself. If you needed to be binded to the Border of Creation itself, that's something.

Griever is less intriguing at first glance. Her best shock was when she just ragdolled Current Molecule Man who is arguably several leagues above his pre-Retcon self. She is also set to grieve at the end of Eternity and the end of Space and Time.

Perpetua is the first creator, the mother of Creators and predates existence while Griever is to grieve at the end of it. They're both newcoming shockers to the Cosmic Hierarchy as new additions but form totally different roles.

Griever at the moment seems to have a more questionable but more outlined feat. While for Perpetua, it's pretty impressive to have every being in the Omniverse fear you more than Lucifer Morningstar himself. Being a cosmically feared being in DC is a VERY impressive feat.

Hence this thread.

@bdelloidgrain2: never turst marvel wikia

I said NEVER

she can be either above or below that

Really? Marvel wiki is that bad?

@sungsam: it almost feels like they are two different side of same coin

I thought Pre-Retcon Molecule Man was stronger that current Molecule Man.

Also, where do you think she stands in DC? I'm tempted to throw her in with characters like Pralaya and might even be on par with Lucifer, and Michael. She seems immensely powerful.

yup never trust them

Didn't know they were that bad. I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

@bdelloidgrain2: good

As for this battle, I'm still favouring Perpetua. She seems almost unstoppable - so powerful that the Presence itself had to banish her to the Source Wall.

@sungsam As for Perpetua existing before time existed itself, keep in mind that Lucifer and Michael both have replicated this. Unless they retconned this, Michael and Lucifer must have created her and her powers must come from the Demiurgic power, something that Michael has infinite control over.

@sungsam: i turely think this battle is a toss up but i can see about doubting in grievers powerlevels

a mention of omniverse in dc?? i bet in a month it will all be forgotten and they will stick up with the 52 universes

She has a lot of implied build up power, given that new issues are coming out with her. And the Spectre (Presence's wrath!) is going to be involved!

Since the Source Wall was destroyed. Perpetua is getting potentially freed and this caused the Spectre to get alarmed. Even Swamp Thing is involved. Saying that the destruction of the Source Wall is an affront to Creation. So there's gonna be vengeance stuff. Also, the Multiverse of DC gets fucked up because now energy is leaking to the Overvoid and stuff without the Border to keep the energies from leaking.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Justice-League-2018/Annual-1?id=149324

Very dumb on Spectre's part because he couldn't stop the Border to the Presence's own Creations from being destroyed. He could have prevented this if he was unbound.

At the moment. Perpetua is in some sleep regenerating state or something since the attempt to save the Source Wall from blowing up failed since the Villains teaming up with the Heroes turned out in some double crossing.

It appears Braniac, Lex Luthor, Sinestro and the rest of the Legion of Doom are trying to use her for some evil shit or whatever and took her body from the blown up Source Wall. So we will see more of her. I can totally not see this backfiring for the villains in any way.

Since Perpetua is freed, and multiple characters are getting involved like Spectre and Swamp Thing, I can definitely see this is the next new Big DC Multviersal crisis since the Dark Multiverse Dark Knights Metal Arc! Gonna be CRAAAZYYY gonna see new Cosmic feats!

They did not retcon this. In fact! It is repeated. Lucifer 2018 No. 3.

Lucifer (who doesn't have his wings) is now is trapped in the mind dimension trapped with humans from all time periods where Lucifer made a deal with. Among these people is his Baby Mama the Witch Cycorax (Cycorax is the mother of Lucifer's monster son Caliban. Cycorax is the Black Girl witch with Antlers serving Tea below).

Lucifer explains to Bill Blake (based on a real life person who wrote stuff about the Devil) that he himself once existed in a black abyss of void, where he was the first one who ever laughed. Before the Presence molded the Creation (Time and Space) into the Void and into form.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Lucifer-2018/Issue-3?id=146519

It appears some weird Jack spirit tempted Lucifer (who hadn't had his wings here and was weakened) and couldn't leave.

It's also worth noting that 2018 Lucifer is part of the Sandman 2018 Lineup which tied up literally and began with the ending of Dark Knights Metal. Since this all happened after Dream went missing which happened right after the Dark Multiverse crisis.

@supermanthor

@sungsam said:

@bdelloidgrain2 said:

Also, where do you think she stands in DC? I'm tempted to throw her in with characters like Pralaya and might even be on par with Lucifer, and Michael. She seems immensely powerful.

She has a lot of implied build up power, given that new issues are coming out with her. And the Spectre is going to be involved!

Since the Source Wall was destroyed. Perpetua is getting potentially freed and this caused the Spectre to get alarmed. Saying that the destruction of the Source Wall is an affront to Creation. Also, the Multiverse of DC gets fucked up because now energy is leaking to the Overvoid and stuff.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Justice-League-2018/Annual-1?id=149324

At the moment. Perpetua is in some sleep regenerating state or something since the attempt to save the Source Wall from blowing up failed since the Villains teaming up with the Heroes turned out in some double crossing.

It appears Braniac, Lex Luthor, Sinestro and the rest of the Legion of Doom are trying to use her for some evil shit or whatever and took her body from the blown up Source Wall. So we will see more of her. I can totally not see this backfiring for the villains in any way.

@bdelloidgrain2 said:

@sungsam As for Perpetua existing before time existed itself, keep in mind that Lucifer and Michael both have replicated this. Unless they retconned this, Michael and Lucifer must have created her and her powers must come from the Demiurgic power, something that Michael has infinite control over.

They did not retcon this. In fact! It is repeated. Lucifer 2018 No. 3.

Lucifer (who doesn't have his wings) is now is trapped in the mind dimension trapped with humans from all time periods where Lucifer made a deal with. Among these people is his Baby Mama the Witch Cycorax (Cycorax is the mother of Lucifer's monster son Caliban. Cycorax is the Black Girl witch with Antlers serving Tea below).

Lucifer explains to Bill Blake (based on a real life person who wrote stuff about the Devil) that he himself once existed in a black abyss of void, where he was the first one who ever laughed. Before the Presence molded the Creation (Time and Space) into the Void and into form.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Lucifer-2018/Issue-3?id=146519

It appears some weird Jack spirit tempted Lucifer (who hadn't had his wings here and was weakened) and couldn't leave.

It's also worth noting that 2018 Lucifer is part of the Sandman 2018 Lineup which tied up literally and began with the ending of Dark Knights Metal. Since this all happened after Dream went missing which happened right after the Dark Multiverse crisis.

@supermanthor

The Legion of Doom using Perpetua looks pretty legit. And by legit I mean it will backfire tremendously. Either way, I definitely have to check these comics out.

@sungsam: thanks for the scans

@sungsam said:

@bdelloidgrain2 said:

Also, where do you think she stands in DC? I'm tempted to throw her in with characters like Pralaya and might even be on par with Lucifer, and Michael. She seems immensely powerful.

She has a lot of implied build up power, given that new issues are coming out with her. And the Spectre is going to be involved!

Since the Source Wall was destroyed. Perpetua is getting potentially freed and this caused the Spectre to get alarmed. Saying that the destruction of the Source Wall is an affront to Creation. Also, the Multiverse of DC gets fucked up because now energy is leaking to the Overvoid and stuff.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Justice-League-2018/Annual-1?id=149324

At the moment. Perpetua is in some sleep regenerating state or something since the attempt to save the Source Wall from blowing up failed since the Villains teaming up with the Heroes turned out in some double crossing.

It appears Braniac, Lex Luthor, Sinestro and the rest of the Legion of Doom are trying to use her for some evil shit or whatever and took her body from the blown up Source Wall. So we will see more of her. I can totally not see this backfiring for the villains in any way.

@bdelloidgrain2 said:

@sungsam As for Perpetua existing before time existed itself, keep in mind that Lucifer and Michael both have replicated this. Unless they retconned this, Michael and Lucifer must have created her and her powers must come from the Demiurgic power, something that Michael has infinite control over.

They did not retcon this. In fact! It is repeated. Lucifer 2018 No. 3.

Lucifer (who doesn't have his wings) is now is trapped in the mind dimension trapped with humans from all time periods where Lucifer made a deal with. Among these people is his Baby Mama the Witch Cycorax (Cycorax is the mother of Lucifer's monster son Caliban. Cycorax is the Black Girl witch with Antlers serving Tea below).

Lucifer explains to Bill Blake (based on a real life person who wrote stuff about the Devil) that he himself once existed in a black abyss of void, where he was the first one who ever laughed. Before the Presence molded the Creation (Time and Space) into the Void and into form.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Lucifer-2018/Issue-3?id=146519

It appears some weird Jack spirit tempted Lucifer (who hadn't had his wings here and was weakened) and couldn't leave.

It's also worth noting that 2018 Lucifer is part of the Sandman 2018 Lineup which tied up literally and began with the ending of Dark Knights Metal. Since this all happened after Dream went missing which happened right after the Dark Multiverse crisis.

@supermanthor

The Lucifer comic looks pretty weird. Doesn't seem like it connects to Sandman Lucifer (Neil Gaiman) or the original Lucifer series (Mike Carey) at all. Seems almost like an offshoot of the 2006/2015 Lucifer series.

You probably don't care, but I am slightly doubting Griever's power level. Especially in comparison to someone like Perpetua.

@bdelloidgrain2: @sungsam

you would have thought that low level dc villains would have already known that screwing with sleeping and comatosed infinite higher multiversal gods is a bad idea.

considering all the things like the crisis on infinite earths, final crisis and dark knights metal shit that almost destroyed everything in existence multiple times over and over.

lucifer is trapped in a mind dimension weakened. spectre only does things when something bad happens. the endless dont do jack crap to prevent dumb things like this happening and basically just help the heroes now and then.

and they say that living tribunal is a screw up? look at dc. its a chaos hell hole. nobody wants to live in the dc multiverse that gets destroyed, recreated or damaged and threatend over and over again with virtually nothing to protect it before it gets invaded again.

I mean... you're not wrong.

The writers do keep changing everything. Furthermore, I really despise the current depiction of Lucifer, as some blind, old, hairy dude.

@etriel: i have a question where is Micheal in these mess ?

The Flash wank can get out of control.

@bdelloidgrain2: indeed

@sungsam

Isn't Griever the Entropy abstract?

@bdelloidgrain2: @supermanthor:

assuming that lucifer part 2 is canon. michael demiurgos was revived by the fake presence albeit with a messed up head who cant remember his previous life. lucifer banished him to the void.

if lucifer part 2 is not canon then michael is still dead. dead. dead.

michael is no longer the poster boy of dc heaven now. the spectre and the archangel zauriel are the most affront poster boy angels of the presence. no longer michael and lucifer. their days of their prime are long over and long gone. out and out to make way for the newer angels.

did you know zauriel was created by grant morrison? lol

This. I personally really liked Michael. It's a shame he died in the Carey run. They could have brought him back.

It does seem like Lucifer and Michael are not living up to their previous strength. It's a shame really. That's one of the things I found so interesting about the Sandman and Lucifer series. How a God-like entity lives.

As for Zauriel being created by Grant Morrison, I did NOT know that! I just Googled it. Very interesting!!!

She is. Griever is in fact a Conceptual Abstract.

The thing about Perpetua is that she is not a Conceptual Abstract Goddess. Well, she technically is, but she is the mother of the Over-Monitors, Anti-Monitors and the World Forgers. She is more like a Creator Goddess. But I'm not sure if she embodies the concept of Creation.

@soratoumiga@juliusz2006@primelygreat@wollfmyth209@rijehu

This thread is slowly becoming a DC Cosmology discussion thread. Almost, if you are interested. Pardon my call.

True. It kind of is.

But I think it's important to discuss Cosmology in order to accurately determine who would win in a fight. These characters are so strong that we need all the evidence we can get to determine who would be victorious.

@sungsam: DC keeps ruining their Cosmology by introducing new characters out of nowhere, who barely fit the pre-established "hierarchy". They partially try to explain this by saying DC is an "omniverse" and there are multiple multiverses, each with their own Creators and Guardians and whatever. This just further confirms what Dark Knights Metal keeps repeating that the mainstream DC Multiverse is a fishbowl dunked into an ocean.

Perpetua's standing in the grand scheme of things is sorta unclear. We know she's above the Monitors, the World Forger, and the Anti-Monitor. We also know her presence can apparently kill and create universes. We know she's more feared than her brothers and sisters, but we don't know who those dudes are, just that they made their own multiverses. I guess placing her alongside the Endless in terms of power/influence isn't neccessarily wrong, but I doubt that's enough to beat the Griever who actually has a concrete feat of stomping Current Molecule Man.

So, for now Griever. I do wanna see Perpetua get some feats tho, and I hope she gets gracefully woven into DC Cosmology(she won't, probably).

i also agree that griever would win. since perpetua doesnt have much feats to counter her.... yet.

Griever takes this for the moment. Give it 2 months.

I think we need a bit more feats from Perpetua to make a decent call on who would win, imo.

Perpetua

What feats does current Molecule man have to put him above his pre retcon self???

Perpetua needs more feats, tbh. Griever was powerful enough to effortlessly murder current Molecule Man who's a solid multiversal level entity and beat the living crap out of Franklin Richard, but she later jobbed to a bunch of mid tiers, and can't survive a universal explosion (heavily implied on panels) meaning she has split durability. Yeah, confusing.

Edit: As for the battle at hand. A toss up for me.

I need to look more into to Perpetua to say for sure. The Griever losing to the Fantastic Four was PIS.

Have you read the Ultimates? He held the Omniverse (actually, it was later retconned into a multiverse confirmed by El Ewing, some people got pissed at him for using the term Omniverse instead of multiverse, or something along those lines) in his hands, and created a dimension/reality -(forgot its name) that was basically a lot larger than the multiverse.

Edit: I'm slowly leaning toward Griever. But Perpetua seems more powerful with implied powers.

Yea Marvel comics has gone a bit downhill since like 2016.