OWK Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. ROTS Count Dooku

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I'm going to go with Dooku.

In RoTS, Dooku was able to ragdoll Kenobi and fight both him and base Anakin in a 2v1. Kenobi beating this version of Vader, in the manner which he did is not enough to put him above Dooku, imo.

dooku could potentially win round 1

round 2 goes to obi due to him having the emotional amp from the twins

round 3 is obi for the same reasons

Dooku clears, but it’s the closest Obi Wan/Dooku fight in history.

Round 1 - Obi’s mastery of Soresu is a huge obstacle to overcome, but it provides too little offensie for an opponent who is not known to make mistakes.

Round 2 - Obi Wan can’t block lightning without his saber. Dooku spams lightning, sealing Obi, and then can force choke him to death.

Round 3 - This is the hardest round for Dooku, but he still wins. The gap between him and Kenobi in ROTS was too great for the twin amp to overcome.

The only way Kenobi could pick up a win in 3 would be location of the fight. If its the IH, Dooku wins more easily. If it’s where Obi and Vader fought, it’s way closer because Obi has more ways to use the force offensively.

I agree with you and for round 2 you make some very good points.

Makashi is also meant to be quite good against Soresu ( unless that's no longer canon).

For round 3, Dooku could certainly replicate what Kenobi did because it's not really that impressive in general, just impressive for Kenobi and it helps that Vader decided not to use the force just like he did when Obi Wan escaped in episode 3 and on the 2nd Space ship lol.

Dooku due to skill

Kenobi stomps lol. Putting a Vader level character against a Sub-Titan Sith.

Mismatch Somebody lock.@krisbishop, @frozen,

Make this ROTS and you got a fight

With twin amp? OWK

Well, you know, Count Dooku was once like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn. With better training, of course, having studied under none other than Grand Master Yoda. Dooku led a longer career as a Master, too, carrying on well beyond the extent of Master Jinn or Kenobi's service. Eventually, the battle-weary Master forsook the Jedi Order and further amplified his powers through the dark side. One wonders how Master Kenobi might have fared against his own teacher's mentor at a similar age, but beyond that, the elder Master Dooku is just too much. As Darth Tyranus, exempting the very highest of the Sith and Jedi Orders -- Emperor Palpatine, Grand Master Yoda, senior High Councilor Mace Windu -- the only fellow who could trump him was Darth Vader, and even that contest was somewhat rigged in favour of the younger warrior. On Geonosis, Count Dooku first demonstrated his elegant mastery of the old style on-screen, and throughout the ensuring war, Obi-Wan Kenobi could never match the older man. You could pair Master Kenobi with his similarly formidable partner, Anakin Skywalker, and Count Dooku would still cleanly dispatch him.

Kenobi wins though sabers round is close

Slight edge to Kenobi round one.

Kenobi then proceeds to stomp round two and three.

@wordsbeyondfic0: @turtleman1878: Dooku’s saber form is designed for saber to saber combat. Kenobi’s is built for defense. I don’t see how Dooku loses in sabers.

He was able to contend with Vader who's a better light saber combatant then Dooku.

The same Obi Wan who beat Anakin lost badly to Dooku. Not to mention, Kenobi was presumably at ROTS levels in OWK. His powers returned. the show doesn’t say he was stronger.

I don’t see how he would be a better duelist after his training lapsed for years.

@wordsbeyondfic0: Yeah this is a mismatch. Someone with Vader level force power against a Sun-Titan. Gee I wonder who’d win? Lol

It’s almost as if a weaker version of Dooku didn’t stalemate an incredibly strong force user. 🤔

Besides Obi WAN’s renewed vigor he was obviously better against Vader. Unless you’re gonna make the bold statement that Vader is somehow weaker now?

As I recall from the films and shows, Darth Tyranus has always succeeded against Master Kenobi where his fellow Dark Lords of the Sith, Darths Maul and Vader, have not -- even when Master Kenobi benefited from the company of an even greater Jedi warrior, Anakin Skywalker.

The elder Count Dooku will make swift work of the Padawan to his own pupil.

Dooku beat a stronger obi twice

obi-wan was already equal to dooku in lightsaber skills as of RoTS ,
the only reason dooku had an edge over kenobi in RoTS was because of his superiority with the force ,
but that is no longer the case here , on the contrary it´s quite the opposite .
if kenobi can make vader helpless against his TK attacks than he can do the same and even more to dooku .
kenobi returns the favour and this time he is the one doing the ragdoll ...

Dooku!

@dark_globe: he didn’t make Vader helpless.

This is from the Disney plus audio description:

“Vader raises a hand and stays his weapon with the force but Obi-Wan twists out of it and force throws him back against a monolith. The Sith Lord doubles over on his hands and knees to recuperate. Obi-Wan spreads his arms and raises them high causing rocks all around to levitate into the air. With a small pump of his hands they all go flying at Vader as he struggles to his feet. Unable to repel the onslaught he raises an elbow to shield his helmeted head.”

Nowhere does it say that Vader was “helpless”. Notice that it says Vader is still struggling to his feet as Obi Wan throws the rocks at Vader, which is why he was unable to repel the rocks. Here’s a more detailed analysis of the fight:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/an-analysis-of-obi-wan-vs-vader-in-owk-episode-6-a-2274612/#js-message-45

It makes it pretty clear that Vader wasn’t overpowered by Kenobi. Obi Wan had several advantages against Vader and Vader wasn’t at 100% during the fight.

1- Dooku

2- Kenobi

3- Kenobi high-diff

@sonofdarkness: Why as the OP, are you trying to convince your own thread participants that Twin OWK Kenobi somehow isn’t Vader level in the force?

You’re legit linking @dark_globe to an anti-Kenobi thread that he’s actually already saw and disagrees with.

Especially due to the excuses that Vader wasn’t full power(which he was) and any of those same arguments could be applied to Kenobi as well. Unable to repel with the force definitely implies helpless….btw.

OWK Kenobi is clearly Vader tier and this will always be a mismatch unless you have stats equalized and it’s pure saber skill.

With this much effort put into coping with OWK Kenobi’s Vader tier state, we might as well go into the Dooku was tired against Zonakin or Sidious faked his loss against Windu headcanons….

And if you‘re really so against people holding him as Vader tier I suggest spamming this same message in the plethora of threads that have him beating Titan characters.

OT: Kenobi ragdolls…

Also don’t get how OWK Kenobi vs KFV is locked due to Kenobi being too powerful

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/kenobi-obi-wan-kenobi-vs-knightfall-vader-2267398/

Yet a match with an opponent who is fodder to OWK Kenobi outside of saber skill is still open lol.

OT: Kenobi beats the likes of Windu….let alone….Dooku

Obi-Wan by motivation amp. Without it, he loses in a close fight. It's still close regardless.

@nassergrant19: I’m not arguing for or against Obi Wan in this thread, I’m just pointing out that Vader was only unable to repel the rocks because he was still recovering from the force push. The audio description says that Kenobi threw the rocks “as Vader struggles to his feet”, and you can see this is the case if you watch the fight again. Vader was still on his knees looking down, recovering from the push when the rocks were thrown at him. Vader is able to easily repel rocks if he’s on guard. Even the force push itself was only possible because Kenobi created an opening by pinning Vader’s saber to the ground. People keep saying that Obi Wan completely overpowered Vader when that just isn’t the case. If anything, he outdueled Vader, and the opening he created by outdueling Vader allowed him to land a chain of force attacks on him.

But even his ability to outduel Vader was somewhat circumstantial. He attacked vader when his back was turned after he thought he had already won. Kenobi also knows Vader’s strengths and weaknesses:

“A Jedi Master knows their Padawan inside and out: their strengths, weaknesses, and everything in-between. This flashback to a sparring match between Obi-Wan and Anakin, and its resulting lesson, would echo into the present as Vader hunts Kenobi. (Part V)”

Source: 25 of the Best Quotes from Obi-Wan Kenobi | StarWars.com number 17

You don’t need to be on your feet to use the force. The force is a mental power. Vader simply was overpowered by Twin Kenobi’s raw force power regardless of the amount of mental gymnastics used to cope with it.

Same way Dooku being “tired” will never be an excuse for getting stomped by KFV.

Also you can’t say you’re not arguing against the Vader level Kenobi stuff when you linked him to an anti-Kenobi thread….lol.

@nassergrant19: I edited and added this to my previous post:

Even the force push itself was only possible because Kenobi created an opening by pinning Vader’s saber to the ground. People keep saying that Obi Wan completely overpowered Vader when that just isn’t the case. If anything, he outdueled Vader, and the opening he created by outdueling Vader allowed him to land a chain of force attacks on him.

But even his ability to outduel Vader was somewhat circumstantial. He attacked vader when his back was turned after he thought he had already won. Kenobi also knows Vader’s strengths and weaknesses:

“A Jedi Master knows their Padawan inside and out: their strengths, weaknesses, and everything in-between. This flashback to a sparring match between Obi-Wan and Anakin, and its resulting lesson, would echo into the present as Vader hunts Kenobi. (Part V)”

Source: 25 of the Best Quotes from Obi-Wan Kenobi | StarWars.com number 17

@nassergrant19: but Vader wasn’t on guard because he was still struggling to his feet. He wasn’t physically or mentally prepared for the rock barrage.

He was on guard, it was literally mid-battle dude…

He had almost a whole minute of Kenobi T posing on him to repel at least one rock and he failed to. Disney just decided to make Kenobi that OP.

The force push was hilariously an on guard attack lol. He literally overpowered Vader’s force lock and then force pushed him….

Idk man, it seems pretty apparent you’re vehemently against Vader level OWK Kenobi(twin state). Especially with the creation of this thread. Putting him up against a character tiers and tiers beneath him…

@nassergrant19: I’m not opposed to Obi Wan being Vader tier. I just think when you actually look closely and analyze the fight, you can see that Obi Wan didn’t straight up overpower Vader like some people are saying.

Yeah if we look closely it’s pretty clear he overpowered him and sure if you hyper analyze any big fight you could come up with theories but suggesting it changes the person’s overall display of power is extremely unlikely.

As for your first sentence, I highly doubt that lol. Sub-Titans don’t have any place against Twin State Kenobi in threads…but I’m sure you knew that which is why I questioned the intent behind this creation.

Anyways, sorta going off the rails…

OT: Kenobi ragdolls in a mismatch

dooku has literally beat yoda my guy. What does Vader have putting him ahead of dooku/

the "twin-amped" kenobi is stated to be on par with his rots self. I don't see why dooku wouldn't win this like he did in rots

Dude…but it’s like putting Thor against Black Widow. Ofc you’d vote him. It’s a common sense answer. Kenobi’s raw power is Vader level…this is a borderline mismatch unless you equal the stats and make it sabers only.

I think it’s fairly clear he overpowered him but like I said if you hyperanalyze any fight spending days making 3 page dissertations in opposition to what was shown on-screen your definitely gonna come to contradictory theories.

Dooku was ”tired” against Zonakin, Sidious “threw” the fight against Windu energy

OT: OWK Kenobi beats the likes of Windu https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-kenobi-disney-plus-vs-mace-windu-rots-2268276/

And KFV https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/kenobi-obi-wan-kenobi-vs-knightfall-vader-2267398/This is a mismatch and no amount of 10 page interpretations/theories/analysis will change that.

@nassergrant19: Hear me out, but maybe, just maybe Vader isn’t an unstoppable powerhouse like everyone claims.

ROTS Kenobi matched KFV in force and sabers, and Obi and Vader traded force blows in this fight.

How many instances in SW has a force user ragdolled another trained force user with only the force? The instances are rare at best. The “Twin Amp” is used to try and make Vader more powerful than he is.

“How could Kenobi match Vader?” 😱

“He must have been amped.”

Maybe Kenobi is simply a wise and powerful Jedi master who focused himself.

Kenobi is well trained, wise, and powerful. He doesn’t need a “twin amp” to keep up with Vader. Maybe Vader needs a rage amp to keep up with Kenobi.

it is not our fault disney made kenobi this powerful and boosted his abilities .
he beats OWK vader (who is already more powerful with the force than he was as KFV) and
later kenobi also 3 shots maul in rebels in a lightsaber duel (not even abusing his force advantage in this case) .
this clearly implies obi-wan surpassed the likes of dooku , maul , ahsoka and other tier 8s ,
OWK/rebels kenobi is titan tier as a lightsaber duelist and also with his force power .

dooku can´t replicate any of those 2 feats :
he certainly can´t win a TK battle against OWK vader (dooku already got stomped by inferior anakin
who was not even in full dark side rampage mode yet , KFV would blink and dooku would die ,
OWK vader is already superior to both zonakin and KFV and he lost to kenobi in both sabers and the force)

and although dooku would beat maul yes ,
it would be in a good fight and not a 3 shot stomp .

Obi can finally beat the Count

Last I checked IH Kenobi couldn't bust out ROTS Sidious/Yoda tier force feats and instead got ragdolled by Dooku. Twin Amped Kenobi being on par with or slightly more powerful than MF Kenobi is more logical

@nassergrant19 said:

@dark_globe said:

it is not our fault disney made kenobi this powerful and boosted his abilities .

he beats OWK vader (who is already more powerful with the force than he was as KFV) and

later he also 3 shots maul in rebels in a lightsaber duel (not even abusing his force advantage in this case) .

this clearly implies obi-wan surpassed the likes of dooku , maul , ahsoka and other tier 8s ,

OWK/rebels kenobi is titan tier as a lightsaber duelist and also with his force power .

dooku can´t replicate any of those 2 feats :

he certainly can´t win a TK battle against OWK vader (dooku already got stomped by inferior anakin

who was not even in full dark side rampage mode yet , KFV would blink and dooku would die ,

OWK vader is already superior to both zonakin and KFV and he lost to kenobi in both sabers and the force)

and although dooku would beat maul yes ,

it would be in a good fight and not a 3 shot stomp .

disney: we made kenobi on par with his rots self

cv: kenob>>vader>>anakin

What did kenobi do that was "rots sidious/yoda tier" Yoda literally held a mountain in place. And abc logic doesn't work here. Kenobi lasted 12 minuites vs the most powerful person in the galaxy.

Dooku. There is no evidence or reason to believe (especially cause post ROTS he was essentially a hermit) that OWK Kenobi is stronger than ROTS one.

Obi wan wins without much trouble.

@sav0: Its been confirmed that OWK Obi was amped.

@frozen: Where? I want to see a source.