Orcs (WHF) vs The Horde and Alliance (Warcraft)

ROB brings Orcs into Azeroth and as Alliance/Horde were battling something came out of new gates something greeny,but they different Orcs,very much different.

Opponents:

vs

Battlefield: Azeroth.

Battle Prerequisites:

Victory Conditions: When either Alliance/Horde or Orcs win.

Motivation: Outmatch/destroy the opponents cities.

Equipment: Standard.

Prep Time: Alliance/Horde has 2 weeks before Orcs invade.

Bloodlust Y/N: Bloodlust on.

Knowledge:

1. With knowledge.

2. Without knowledge.

Era for Combatants: All WOW,Orcs before End Times. (Not AOS)

Continuity/Canon:

WOW get all canon.

WHF get all fluff.

Note: Orcs replace Burning Legion should i say.

There is simply too many orcs and too little alliance and horde

Doesn't Jaina like freeze them or something

@soratoumiga: You're welcome to show her freezing millions of orcs

@killerwasp: I'm just asking, since she's known to freeze entire cities, as of lately, lol. But I wasn't sure how many orcs are there, are they concentrated in one place or scattered throughout a larger battlefield etc.

@soratoumiga: You know what i completely forgot this last update, they gave sylvanas a boost in magic and others, but the orcs or greenskins do have their own mages and even if the avg orc shaman isnt obviously jaina level heck she might be the best mage out of everyone here, there's so many orc and gobo shamans that it doesnt matter and each is enough to slap few regiments of horde and alliance infantry fairly easy and this many orcs the alliance and the horde is gonna get steamrolled. The alliance and horde don't got the numbers to handle this even short term imo

@killerwasp: Yeah, after a bit of research, Alliance/Horde are really short on numbers, but they do have more versatility and characters who stand out, power-wise (Sylvanas, Tyrande, Jaina, Thrall). This might be stretching it, but:

Prep Time: Alliance/Horde has 2 weeks before Orcs invade.

This could largely help the Alliance. Tyrande could ask Elune's aid, or Cenarius', and similar. Though it would be uncertain what kind of effects it will have, it's plausible.

@soratoumiga: Its undoubtful that would help because grimgor's waaagh alone has fought various armies who are or were extremely versatile as well. I mean his boys got so much experience and without the end times amp the orcs will still steam roll as they overran cathay, indy, and nippon without even a second glance, kicked the shit out of chaos so badly in the east that chaos gave up. Granted again this was end times boost, but their height of power alone is going to be right before this and again tahts a ton of orcs. We've had orc warbosses square up against sigmar who is basically a demi god and almost lose to orc warbosses, grimgor is thee best orc warboss here, no one in melee combat is going to murder him, so yeah ur mages like Tyrande, Jaina, and thrall are going to be ur best bet, no amount of prep is going to stop a basically never ending green tide

@killerwasp: I see, I see, I'm not that familiar with them, so I'm asking if Jaina's hax would affect them. Or Tyrande's, Thrall's etc. In melee/h2h combat, they definitely would lose, due to number gap. Hax could give them an edge, but as I said, I'm not familiar with their tactics, so it could go either way, based on what I've heard.

Horde/Alliance Characters take this pretty easily. Their Heroes are higher Tier.

@azrael1973: What makes you say that?

@soratoumiga:I think she could best the orc mages as they aren't that great unlike the elven mages, but as case and point numbers are a huge factor

@wut thoughts on Jaina vs Wurrzag and Azhag?

@azrael1973:

Heard of Tetzel? Or Malekith?

Grimgor scales to them.

@cergic: yeah, i dont believe anyone can answer to Malekith.

Malekith is pretty good. But WOW seemed to be more High Fantasy to me.

@azrael1973: I'm a WoW lover, but I'm not sure how u manage to think WoW is a higher fantasy. Warhammer has mages that move continents...nukes that blow up not cities... but moons, mages that delete 10s of thousands of soldiers from the battlefield instantly, billions of soldiers, magic users that can do what WoW mages can do, but better.

@wut has made it clear that whatever WC can do, warhammer can do it better. This doesn't mean WC can't win. I'd pick Jaina over most magic users from Malekith and below, minus his dragon. Obviously the dragon gives him an advantage, but Jaina and Thrall are on such a higher level which is why they can hang with the WH folks, but even Malekith isnt the best or highest magic user, hes a mix of Telcis and Tyrion, just not better than either one in either category.

Depends how the Greenskins workout, but if they act stupid and the WC forces can contain them, then they should be able to at least stall them enough to at least contain them. However, if they are coming through the portal the BL came through, WC team wins as they simply just close the portal before the Green tide comes through.

I used to play WOW for years and I played Total War Warhammer for 300+ hours, so I love both verses. It just seemed to me that the characters/generals seemed to be a lot stronger compared to basic troops. I mean WHF mages need a long time until they can recast theis spells and they didn't seem that impressive.

And generally Warcraft seems to have more and more powerful creatures.

@azrael1973: Warhammer total war.... is not a proper way to base your knowledge on a series. This was made clear in various threads more specifically this one,

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/vampire-counts-vs-scourge-1955388/

Everything in Warhammer total war has been brought down for game play. Otherwise people like Maz would do this,

First mountains

When roused, the long-lived Slann can move mountains with their minds, displaying a mastery over the sorcerous arts that belies their sluggish physical appearance

-Lizardmen: 8th Edition

Continents

The Slann Mage-Priests were also able to tap into the geomantic web, and with its energies they could shift continents and further aid the unknowable plans of the Old Ones.

-Lizardmen: 8th Edition

Yes flatten entire armies as they mattered little. The source of this came from this thread, and you're welcome to display it.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/warcraft-old-gods-vs-warhammer-fantasys-empires-1975993/?

@swa2point0: Jaina has better.... misc spells like mass teleporation, etc. Orc magic tends to be devastating but unreliable so its always hard to really.... say with certainty how they'd do.

@merulezall:

WoW has a lot of advantages over WHF like mages are far more common, their tech is, overall, better and far more common [Like, sure, Skaven have some outrageous stuff that is better in a vacuum, but they don't tend to mass produce it like Goblins/Gnomes do]. They also have better unity.

Also, on mountains, true story Mazdamundi actually created a sentient mountain range that can move on its own but Slann are a bit silly.

@azrael1973:

Horde/Alliance Characters take this pretty easily. Their Heroes are higher Tier.

No melee wc character is beating grimgor. The guy can literally fight for weeks on end, has slaughtered rat ogres, dawi, elves, daemons of chaos, warriors of chaos, etc. No one is matching him in what he can do. He is what Grom wishes he can be. As for mages I agree Jaina is above prolly if not all orcs and so on, but her, thrall, and a handful of other mages are really going to have somewhat of an impact on the battlefield

I used to play WOW for years and I played Total War Warhammer for 300+ hours, so I love both verses. It just seemed to me that the characters/generals seemed to be a lot stronger compared to basic troops. I mean WHF mages need a long time until they can recast theis spells and they didn't seem that impressive.

Warhammer total war.... is a poor way to go about warhammer and say your an expert. As I said grimgor, has slaughtered entire armies worth of foes, the white dwarf has slaughtered thousands of orcs without any issue. People like the green knight, wraiths, and other various magical beings would never be hurt by archers, spearmen, swordsmen, etc like they are in the game. The swords would go right through them and do zero damage. You got people as MERA mentioned people like Maz who can move mountains and continents with only but a thought, there is no load up time. Warhammer does cd and requires spell casted to be a bit like summons and so on because if they were to do it the normal route which would be,

The games would would be almost zero fun as all it would take is a single decent mage to just spam everything. I mean ffs the winds of magic mechanic is for this purpose otherwise once more... mages would own the battlefield

Yes Jaina would affect them, but what im saying is Jaina despite her best efforts and the others wont be enough to stem them green tide imo. As they simply have too many numbers

I said I love it not that I am a expert, which I am not. But I know that even in the tabletop Grimgor is far away from invinvible. It's not like as if Ratogres or Warriors of chaos are something special in WOW.

It's just my opionion being a fan of both universes that I believe that the World of Warcraft seems to be more dangerous and on a higher power level. I know that there Lizardman mages in Warhammer that can move continents, but they are asleep most of the time.

And I know that the powerlevel in Warhammer has increased with Age of Sigmar, where everything is bigger.

@azrael1973: Obviously Grimgor isn't unbeatable on tabletop. Would be a bad tabletop game if there was an unbeatable unit that you could get.

They are referring to lore, you know.. novels.

@azrael1973:

I said I love it not that I am a expert, which I am not. But I know that even in the tabletop Grimgor is far away from invinvible. It's not like as if Ratogres or Warriors of chaos are something special in WOW.

Except Warriors of chaos are. Especially their elite troops as they are some of the best within the setting. Tabletop is not the lore I'm talking about man. I'm referring to the actual novels in which he is..... ( i mean he dies but still )

You're right you didnt claim to be an expert

All it takes is one to do so and Maz is very much awake, my point is WC has edges but to believe its a higher tier fantasy due to limited amount of time spent on one series over the other is kinda..... silly

To say the truth I didn't read the novel except the Gotrek & Felix ones.

but I have a subscription for white dwarf. So my point of view is more from a gamer.

I liked the Old World because it was pretty realistic and down to earth.

Isn't that guy the replacement for Grimgor?

@wut: I thought so, but I wasn't sure. As for the thread, the orcs sweep?

@azrael1973:

To say the truth I didn't read the novel except the Gotrek & Felix ones.

which are good novels, just not novels you base what you see from them on the world setting as they leave out quite a bit, and its pretty much a given that monsters, warriors, and beasts are going to job to make them look awesome. For example if you read in the novel that Gotreks slaughters 10 vampires, you will think the Vampires are simply weak, but if you read the lore behind the vampires you'd know that simply Gotreks is just that good. Thats the wonderful thing about warhammer is that it has tons of lore to draw from tons of feats tons of unique feats to give us the impression that when someone does something actually noteworthy that all those feats u read about makes that character just that awesome, again like Grimgor slaughtering Rat Ogres for weeks on end

but I have a subscription for white dwarf. So my point of view is more from a gamer.

Which is fine, but you wouldnt say for example a Paladin couldn't kill no more than 5 grunts right? Because all it would take in wc3 is like 5 or 6 grunts to surround and bash the lvl 1 paladin in the face, but in lore a paladin would beat the breaks off of 5 or 6 Orc grunts

I liked the Old World because it was pretty realistic and down to earth.

The Old world isnt that realistic, everyone likes the old world because of humans and dawi for the most part. Because they bring that realism to it, but if you actually looked more into the old world you'd realize you got, chaos to the north, Beastmen all over, skaven below, wood elves here and there, Norsca up above, etc. A lot of these factions especially the skaven are far from realistic

Isn't that guy the replacement for Grimgor?

Yes and no, AoS is a new setting, Chaos won in Warhammer Fantasy, AoS is basically the next cycle for the setting which is why everyone is so mad, but AoS has slowly been getting better

@o0deadman0o: @cergic: @wut: @killerwasp: How does the orcs whf orcs beat the alliance and horde if the alliance and horde number in the millions as well? They can't out muscle them like they can for other races.

@bastetz: Don't confuse threads. I never said who I thought wins this so don't lump me into a debate I have not engaged in. If you want to debate with them on that, you are welcome to.

@wut: are you backing out of an argument for the greenskins??? Shame wut shame on you!

@killerwasp: I never made an argument for the greenskins. In fact, my post have been to talk about Grimgor and to point out the advantages WC has over WHF.

You should be happy since I am doing your job of debating for Lizardmen. Honestly not sure who wins this since the OP is weird since its just 'Orcs'. Is it all Orcs? And if it is all Orcs, why not just make it Grimgor's WAAAGH from End Times and save everyone the confusion? If it is all orcs, but no Grimgor WAAAGH, then who is leading it? Are they just thrown together outside of the portal and told 'Have fun?' in which case, no, because the Orcs would fight among each others and spread out becoming just another part of the WC universe.

@wut: Orcs in their prime that isnt end times is the OP whatever that might be. Like I said in the past people like yourself have said Grimgor's mowed down Cathay and various other nations and beat up chaos, all while this is true, but not the full truth as Cathay and those minor nations have been extremely weakened by Skaven and chaos incursions.

@bastetz: Yes, Grimgor's End Time WAAAGH did that although, no, they didn't really fight Cathay. Cathay and the east had gotten falcon punched by Chaos. What Grimgor did was falcon punch the survivors and the forces of chaos so hard that Chaos Noped out of the Eastern Hemisphere entirely [Girmgor was teleporated back into the west against his will during the final battle leaving most of his WAAAGH behind].

So, its not 'all' the orcs. Just randomly in their non-existent prime before Grimgor's End Times WAAAGH?

So what do you want?

Want Grom's WAAAGH? Pre-End Times Grimgor's WAAAGH? Gorbad's WAAAGH?

@wut: Chaos noped out because they were weakened due to fighting Cathay. The point was Grimgor didn't stomp the eastern hemisphere. He merely finished it off, which wouldn't necessary be hard for the Horde and Alliance to do, due to their armies by scaling are in the millions. Millions of strong humans in plated armor and strong orcs with excellent strength and decent brains, brains smarter than grimgor and his waaagh. On top of that they bring the technology of the dwarves, magic of the elves and forsaken, and excellent leadership.

Whatever is orcs in their prime that doesn't involve end times. If thats Grom's Waaagh then its Grom's Waaagh, if its Gorbad's Waaagh, then its his waaagh. Whatever the orcs in their prime is, is what is being used here.

So far everyone seems to state the orcs out number the alliance and horde, yet not a single quote posted displays how they out number the alliance and horde.

@bastetz: Go ahead and post your evidence that Chaos was weakened by taking Cathay. The evidence that Grimgor's End Time WAAAGH fought a paper tiger chaos in the east. Of course, by this logic, then Archaon's End Times army at the last battle was weakened and a paper tiger since they had spent time beating up Kislev before.

None of those WAAAGHs are a 'prime'. That is because your OP was horribly worded to make it sound like it was all the Orcs in WHF, ergo, making people think they would have the numbers. Instead its just 'Biggest WAAAGH that isn't the actual biggest WAAAGH' but in order to figure that out, I had to pester you to get a straight answer.

Obviously, a single WAAAGH wouldn't defeat the Horde and Alliance, and you now have your answer.

@wut: So grimgor's waaagh wouldnt beat the alliance even if it was his end times waaagh without the amp. Am I seeing that correctly?

@bastetz: What in the world are you on about? His End Times WAAAGH was almost every greenskin on the planet, the Ogres, the Giants and every other thing that got in his way.

His Pre-End Times WAAAGH was just some orcs that followed him around. There is a MASSIVE difference between those two WAAAGHs.

To put it in 40k terms for you, this is like comparing Random Ork WAAAGH #23412 to Thraka's 3rd Armageddon WAAAGH.

@wut: I'm going off of what you said, so once more how big is that waaagh, grimgors end times waaagh.

@bastetz: I, literally, just told you. All the Orcs and Goblins, all the Ogres, the Giants, the Hobgoblins... all united under his banner.

What? Did you think the End Times gave an exact numerical figure? Because that isn't how it works.

@wut: No, but it'd be nice if they said millions, billions, etc. Like we saw with daemons, lizardmen, dwarfs, elves, etc. We have no idea how large they are or how many there are. I'm asking for supporting evidence of how they could out number the alliance and horde is all. It's not a hard question if you can't provide it, then its fine.

@bastetz: And I just said you are not getting numerical figures for Grimgor's WAAAGH.

The WH orcs win it because WC fodder orcs job more than WH fodder orcs. WH high tier fodder beat WC high tier fodder and the legendary units in WH are higher on the totempole than WC ones.

there are several leaders in alliance and horde that solo, especially with shadowlands, anduin scales to the afterlife realm of the maw (the jailer's domain) and would clear by himself, tyrande calls down astral bombing from the celestials and destroys them by herself too, and others do similar things