Orange Piccolo vs Vegeta

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takenstew22

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#1  Edited By takenstew22  Moderator
No Caption Provided

Round 1

SSBE Vegeta
SSBE Vegeta

Round 2

UE Vegeta
UE Vegeta

Rules

  • Granolah/Super Hero arc Vegeta
  • No FSF
  • Bloodlusted
  • Takes place on an indestructible planet
  • Win by death or K.O., no BFR
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QuantuBeyond

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The problem with this matchup is that it isn't even really Piccolo vs Vegeta, it's one interpretation of statements vs another lol

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takenstew22

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#5  Edited By takenstew22  Moderator

The problem with this matchup is that it isn't even really Piccolo vs Vegeta, it's one interpretation of statements vs another lol

You're not really wrong lol. That's kinda what's been going on with DB recently.

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QuantuBeyond

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Can't wait for the continuation of the series over the next years, we need clarification on so many things as soon as possible.

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Wabubub

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Depends how you interpret the anime. Probably Piccolo. In the manga though Vegeta is much more powerful than Broly by now and would stomp.

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takenstew22

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#8 takenstew22  Moderator

@wabubub said:

Depends how you interpret the anime. Probably Piccolo. In the manga though Vegeta is much more powerful than Broly by now and would stomp.

The reason I'm choosing anime continuity is because Goku and Vegeta get a massive amp to their base while Manga wasn't shown to.

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alextheboss

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Hard to say for now. I do think they are probably around the same level though.

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nassergrant19

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#11  Edited By nassergrant19  Online
@eredin12 said:

Vegeta

How? Piccolo’s verbatim confirmed by Toriyama to be Goku’s level of power.

Not “held back” Goku, not “80% Goku”. Simply Goku which implies MUI.

This is also backed up by Piccolo’s performance against the Gammas.

It’s confirmed the Gammas were both Goku and Vegeta level in power. Since the Gammas had parity, we can only look at the last time DBS Goku/Vegeta were equal. This was when they fought Jiren with SBBKKx20 and SSBE, thus the most adequate placement for the statement.

Piccolo legit no-sold and oneshot a SSBE level opponent via Gamma 2.

No Caption Provided

He‘s at the bare minimum 3rd Omen Goku level and at max MUI.

Don‘t see how Vegeta’s winning this when he’s outmatched in raw power and durability

OT: Piccolo low-diff

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alextheboss

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@nassergrant19: He likely meant Goku and Vegat at SSB level, as ultimate Gohan was on their level, and Toriyama said Piccolo finally caught up with “Goku and the others” with his orange form.

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#13  Edited By nassergrant19  Online

@alextheboss:

He likely meant Goku and Vegat at SSB level

Even if that were true, which it wasn’t, it doesn’t add up as Toriyama called Piccolo Goku level. Piccolo saw Goku/Vegeta at their most powerful while equal and that was against Jiren with SSBE/SSBKKX20.

He no-sold and oneshot a SSBKKX20 level fighter. The intent is so blatantly obvious it’s practically equivalent to 2+2=4.

as ultimate Gohan was on their level,

Ultimate form Gohan simply got a massive power buff due to the rage for Pan. Which makes his jump to beyond MUI levels in his Beast form even more sensible.

and Toriyama said Piccolo finally caught up with “Goku and the others” with his orange form.

Yeah I know, and not “held back“ Goku. Simply Goku which implies MUI and is why Piccolo low-diffs this fight.

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alextheboss

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@nassergrant19:

Even if that were true, which it wasn’t, it doesn’t add up as Toriyama called Piccolo Goku level.

No, he said "Goku and the others". So he is up there with Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Frieza, and 17. It's not just Goku.

Piccolo saw Goku/Vegeta at their most powerful while equal and that was against Jiren with SSBE/SSBKKX20.

Goku at his most powerful is ultra instinct. Piccolo was just saying he was in their realm of power. Gamma 1 being slightly below ultimate Gohan who slacked on training should be enough proof he is only about SSB level. There is also the fact at the end of the Cell max fight it was stated if Goku and Vegeta were there they might not have even been able to win, implying they are still stronger than everyone else besides Gohan beast who actually did win.

He no-sold and oneshot a SSBKKX20 level fighter. The intent is so blatantly obvious it’s practically equivalent to 2+2=4.

Ultimate Gohan level fighter, not SSBKKx20.

Super Hero was directly stated to be a sequel to the Broly movie. Goku and Vegeta only used SSB to fight Broly, even when they couldn't win. Using kkx20 and SSBE is highly questionable due to that. It's likely Piccolo was comparing the gammas power to the Blue Goku and Vegeta he felt in the Broly movie. The OP says its current Vegeta as of the Super Hero movie. He would obviously be stronger than he was, especially with SSBE.

Ultimate form Gohan simply got a massive power buff due to the rage for Pan. Which makes his jump to beyond MUI levels in his Beast form even more sensible.

You are using a character who has a highly questionable power to argue why a character we knew the strength of his stronger. That is a very shady argument.

Yeah I know, and not “held back“ Goku. Simply Goku which implies MUI and is why Piccolo low-diffs this fight.

You keep ignoring "the others" part. Nobody is on UI Gouk's level out of the group, meaning including the others only means it's SSBkkx20, SSBE, and current golden Frieza levels at best. If it was just Goku, then sure, it coudl be MUI.

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#15  Edited By nassergrant19  Online

@alextheboss:

No, he said "Goku and the others". So he is up there with Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Frieza, and 17. It's not just Goku.

Jiren and Broly are others. ToP Gohan, Frieza, 17 and Vegeta aren’t that level.

Goku at his most powerful is ultra instinct. Piccolo was just saying he was in their realm of power. Gamma 1 being slightly below ultimate Gohan who slacked on training

Wrong again. DBSSH Gohan is far more powerful than ToP Ultimate Gohan. He got a rage boost from Pan which made him beyond his normal level.

This isn’t unusual as both Trunks and Vegeta have done it. It also makes sense as another rage boost pushes him over MUI Goku.

There is also the fact at the end of the Cell max fight it was stated if Goku and Vegeta were there they might not have even been able to win, implying they are still stronger than everyone else besides Gohan beast who actually did win.

Beast Gohan is far beyond MUI so this doesn’t help your point.

Ultimate Gohan level fighter, not SSBKKx20.

Ultimate Gohan=SSBKKx20. It’s not hard

Super Hero was directly stated to be a sequel to the Broly movie. Goku and Vegeta only used SSB to fight Broly,

It’s hilarious you don’t even see you’re helping my argument. In the Broly film Goku and Vegeta were fighting for the sake of Earth. It was do or die. They had no reason to hold back and admitted they did everything they could.

This means their SSB forms simply grew stronger than their SSBE and SSBKKX20 forms. My point still remains and Piccolo no-sold that level.

It's likely Piccolo was comparing the gammas power to the Blue Goku and Vegeta he felt in the Broly movie.

Even better scaling for Piccolo lol.

The OP says its current Vegeta as of the Super Hero movie. He would obviously be stronger than he was, especially with SSBE.

Ok but no evidence he’s above Piccolo with it.

You are using a character who has a highly questionable power

Nope I’m using a character with blatant canonically confirmed power while you’re actively arguing with Toriyama. Very shady indeed.

You keep ignoring "the others" part.

Yeah Broly and Jiren.

Nobody is on UI Gouk's level out of the group, meaning including the others only means it's SSBkkx20, SSBE, and current golden Frieza levels at best.

He never mentioned group. So definitely MUI levels, plus even if you wanna cope with that the Gamma feats speak for themselves.

OT: Piccolo oneshots here.

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deactivated-64969837cbeff

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Piccolo stomps

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Oreoghoul

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Vegeta. People keep misunderstanding statements it seems lol.

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Aristeaus

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@alextheboss:

You keep ignoring "the others" part.

Yeah Broly and Jiren.

The quote I saw was Goku and Co, which isn't Broly or Jiren.

There is no reason to say "and co" when comparing Piccolo to someone. "Co" isn't anywhere near Goku aside from Vegeta.

On top of that adding extra details like that are rather uncommon in the Japanese language. Akira would not have said "and co" if he implied he was on Goku's level.

Additionally, we have the information from Cell Max that definitively proves the opposite of what you are arguing.

"If Cell Max was completed according to plan, even Broly couldn't defeat him"

This is also a quote from Akira.

Cell Max was above Piccolo. If Broly could defeat him, then there is simply no way that Orange Pic is anywhere near MUI Goku.

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El_mago

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DB got so messy in terms of scaling and power its difficult to argue it at the moment

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#20  Edited By nassergrant19  Online

@Aristeaus:

The quote I saw was Goku and Co, which isn't Broly or Jiren.

That’s someone near Goku.

There is no reason to say "and co" when comparing Piccolo to someone. "Co" isn't anywhere near Goku aside from Vegeta.

Jiren and Broly…

On top of that adding extra details like that are rather uncommon in the Japanese language. Akira would not have said "and co" if he implied he was on Goku's level.

That’s speculation tho, the major point is Goku. Besides the Toriyama statement isn’t even my main argument.

Additionally, we have the information from Cell Max that definitively proves the opposite of what you are arguing.

Not really.

“If Cell Max was completed according to plan, even Broly couldn't defeat him" Cell Max was above Piccolo. If Broly could defeat him, then there is simply no way that Orange Pic is anywhere near MUI Goku.

Yeah and Broly is above MUI Goku. His feats are better.

Your also ignoring that Piccolo no-sold and oneshot a SSBKX20 level fighter. An indisputable on-screen feat that backs up the statement.

With that, at minimum he’s Omen 3rd trigger and at max he’s MUI level.

Vegeta doesn’t really have a chance here.

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#21 nassergrant19  Online
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The_Hajduk

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Piccolo might be able to beat UE Vegeta let alone this form.

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Nicov

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Vegeta wins.

Some people here are incapable or understand a simple series like DB lol

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alextheboss

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@nassergrant19:

The statement where (Gohan or Piccolo) says Goku and Vegeta might not have been able to stop him pretty much counters every point you made. If Orange Piccolo was UI level or higher there would be no point in saying that as obviously Goku and Vegeta wouldn't do anything.

And Broly doesn't really have better feats than MUI Goku. Broly was stated to maybe be stronger than Beerus. Jiren was stated to be stronger than the GoD that beat Beerus in an armwrestle. MUI Goku stomped that Jiren. Then Jiren achieved limit breaker becoming even stronger, then Goku got another power up and beat him up again.

Orange Piccolo<incomplete Cell Max<Jiren/MUI Goku/Broly

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alextheboss

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Piccolo might be able to beat UE Vegeta let alone this form.

lol no. UE Vegeta surpassed Granolah who was confirmed to be stronger than Broly via the wish. Broly is confirmed stronger than the Cell Max that beat Orange Piccolo.

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MoneyyJunee

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Vegeta

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Aristeaus

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@Aristeaus:

The quote I saw was Goku and Co, which isn't Broly or Jiren.

That’s someone near Goku.

There is no reason to say "and co" when comparing Piccolo to someone. "Co" isn't anywhere near Goku aside from Vegeta.

On top of that adding extra details like that are rather uncommon in the Japanese language. Akira would not have said "and co" if he implied he was on Goku's level.

That’s speculation tho, the major point is Goku. Besides the Toriyama statement isn’t even my main argument.

Additionally, we have the information from Cell Max that definitively proves the opposite of what you are arguing.

Not really.

“If Cell Max was completed according to plan, even Broly couldn't defeat him" Cell Max was above Piccolo. If Broly could defeat him, then there is simply no way that Orange Pic is anywhere near MUI Goku.

Yeah and Broly is above MUI Goku. His feats are better.

Your also ignoring that Piccolo no-sold and oneshot SSBKX20 level fighter. An indisputable on-screen feat.

With that, at minimum he’s Omen 3rd trigger and at max he’s MUI level.

Vegeta doesn’t really have a chance here.

Sorry, so when its your argument his words are infallible, but when it goes against you, it doesn't mean anything?

Just a terrible way to debate.

Also, your first post here... your first line is the Toriyama quote. It is your main argument. You keep talking about it.

Broly is not above MUI Goku. Feats don't mean anything in DB. First Form Frieza from DBZ has better feats then 99% of the verse. Literally means nothing here. We passed that bridge a long time ago.

Gammas are not confirmed to be SSBx20 whatever. That never happened. Pic thought they might potentially be on par with Goku and Vegeta, which is not only not a confirmation, but is meaningless in itself when you don't know which version of Goku/Vegeta Pic was even referring to.

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Pandalumina

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hard to say

need to see more from the pickle

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#29 nassergrant19  Online

@alextheboss:

The statement where (Gohan or Piccolo) says Goku and Vegeta might not have been able to stop him pretty much counters every point you made.

Not at all since Vegeta’s power would be stacked on to Goku’s.

And Broly doesn't really have better feats than MUI Goku. Broly was stated to maybe be stronger than Beerus. Jiren was stated to be stronger than the GoD that beat Beerus in an armwrestle.

Belmod isn’t above Beerus

MUI Goku stomped that Jiren. Then Jiren achieved limit breaker becoming even stronger, then Goku got another power up and beat him up again.

Belmod still isn’t above Beerus tho.

Orange Piccolo<incomplete Cell Max<Jiren/MUI Goku/Broly

Beast Gohan>>>>Cell Max>>MUI Goku/Broly/Jiren=Orange Piccolo

Piccolo no-sold and oneshot SSBKKX20 level fighter. He’s far beyond SSBE level which MUI is clearly a part of.

Vegeta gets the Gamma 2 treatment.

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alextheboss

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@nassergrant19:

Not at all since Vegeta’s power would be stacked on to Goku’s.

It's stated the movie is a sequel to Broly and the last time we saw Goku and Vegeta fight they were only in Blue. The only way your argument work is if we include the Moro arc and Piccolo and Gohan know Goku can access MUI at will.

Belmod isn’t above Beerus

Belmod still isn’t above Beerus tho.

In the manga he isn't, but the anime is a bit different. In the anime Whis said the universe with the mortal stronger than a GoD is the universe where their GoD beat Beerus in an arm-wrestle. However later in Super Whis acts like it was just a rumor there was a mortal stronger than a GoD and he didn't know it was Jiren, so you can just argue it's a plot whole due to the writers forgetting what they wrote.

Beast Gohan>>>>Cell Max>>MUI Goku/Broly/Jiren=Orange Piccolo

Toriyama already implied Broly is above a incomplete Cell max, and Beast Gohan beat the incomplete Cell max using his weakness and Piccolo's help. He is above Cell Max, but not by the amount you are indicating.

Beast Gohan>=completed Cell Max>Broly/MUI Goku>incomplete Cell Max>Orange Piccolo

Piccolo no-sold and oneshot SSBKKX20 level fighter.

Nobody said that but you. Piccolo never mentioned a form. For all we know he could have been talking about current base Goku and Vegeta. I think Blue is the most likely as it's been directly stated this movie is a direct sequel to Broly, and that was the highest forms they used in Broly.

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#31  Edited By nassergrant19  Online

@Aristeaus:

Sorry, so when its your argument his words are infallible, but when it goes against you, it doesn't mean anything?

Not really because he flat out confirms Piccolo is MUI level…

Unless you think using the word Goku=“Held Back” Goku which is quite nonsensical.

Just a terrible way to debate.

On your part.

Also, your first post here... your first line is the Toriyama quote. It is your main argument. You keep talking about it.

I use both

Broly is not above MUI Goku. Feats don't mean anything in DB. First Form Frieza from DBZ has better feats then 99% of the verse. Literally means nothing here. We passed that bridge a long time ago.

Yeah Broly is above MUI Goku and also has statements to confirm it as well.

Gammas are not confirmed to be SSBx20 whatever. That never happened.

Yeah they are.

Pic thought they might potentially be on par with Goku and Vegeta, which is not only not a confirmation,

So the smartest fighter in DBS who witnessed Goku and Vegeta’s full power isn’t a confirmation? Gee guess Toriyama was high when he made him say that lol.

but is meaningless in itself when you don't know which version of Goku/Vegeta Pic was even referring to.

LMAO wut? Are you kidding me. I’m sorry this is maximum cope. In DBZ/DBS no one ever specifies the form of the person they compare in power.

In DBZ Krillin states Imperfect Cell is stronger than Frieza to Goku.

According to your cope logic, you’d go “He NeVeR SaId WhAt FoRm Of FrIeZa”.

In DBZ Vegeta says to Goku your stronger than Gohan when he goes SSJ2.

According to your logic, you’d go “He NeVer SaId WhAt FoRm Of GoHaN.”

In DBZ Goku says Dabura is as strong as Cell.

According to your logic, you’d go “He NeVeR SaId WhAt StAgE oF CeLl.”

In DBZ the Supreme Kai states, Buu could oneshot Frieza

Accroding to your logic, “He NeVeR SaId WhaT FoRm oF Frieza”

On and on…

When DB states A is equal or stronger than B, unless they state a weaker form it’s assumed to be their max.

In Goku and Vegeta’s case Piccolo saw them at their strongest. Since the Gammas were equal we can only use Goku/Vegeta’s max power while equal. This was SSBKKX20 and SSBE.

Piccolo oneshots Vegeta here.

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Vegeta high diff

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#33  Edited By nassergrant19  Online

@alextheboss:

It's stated the movie is a sequel to Broly and the last time we saw Goku and Vegeta fight they were only in Blue.

Still canon to the anime where his full power is MUI.

The only way your argument work is if we include the Moro arc and Piccolo and Gohan know Goku can access MUI at will.

They included DBSH in the manga recently actually but that’s not the only way.

In the manga he isn't, but the anime is a bit different. In the anime Whis said the universe with the mortal stronger than a GoD is the universe where their GoD beat Beerus in an arm-wrestle. However later in Super Whis acts like it was just a rumor

Exactly the reason why.

Toriyama already implied Broly is above a incomplete Cell max,

Broly is above MUI Goku.

and Beast Gohan beat the incomplete Cell max using his weakness and Piccolo's help. He is above Cell Max, but not by the amount you are indicating.

Yeah he is. He literally tanked his strongest punch with his aura….

Beast Gohan>=completed Cell Max>Broly/MUI Goku>incomplete Cell Max>Orange Piccolo

Nah

Beast Gohan>>>>Cell Max>>MUI Goku/Broly/Jiren=Orange Piccolo

Nobody said that but you.

Piccolo…said it and most people know this except you…

Piccolo never mentioned a form. For all we know he could have been talking about current base Goku and Vegeta.

Cope😂.

In DBZ/DBS no one ever specifies the form of the person they compare in power.

In DBZ Krillin states Imperfect Cell is stronger than Frieza to Goku.

According to your cope logic, you’d go “He NeVeR SaId WhAt FoRm Of FrIeZa”.

In DBZ Vegeta says to Goku your stronger than Gohan when he goes SSJ2.

According to your logic, you’d go “He NeVer SaId WhAt FoRm Of GoHaN.”

In DBZ Goku says Dabura is as strong as Cell.

According to your logic, you’d go “He NeVeR SaId WhAt StAgE oF CeLl.”

In DBZ the Supreme Kai states, Buu could oneshot Frieza

According to your logic, “He NeVeR SaId WhaT FoRm oF Frieza”

On and on…

When DB states A is equal or stronger than B, unless they state a weaker form it’s assumed to be their max.

He clearly meant ToP SSBKKX20/SSBE Goku and Vegeta or the Broly versions. As it had to be the full power he’s seen while they were still equal.

I think Blue is the most likely as it's been directly stated this movie is a direct sequel to Broly, and that was the highest forms they used in Broly.

Which only helps my argument and backs up Toriyama’s MUI implication. Broly SSB Goku/Vegeta>>ToP SSBKKX20/SSBE Goku/Vegeta. Unless you believe some strange headcanon that they held back while the Earth is at stake and they admitted there was nothing else they could do.

He no-sold and oneshot someone of that caliber. Which clearly makes you a tier or more above that level. What’s a tier or more above SSBKKX20? UI 3rd trigger and MUI….

The same thing Piccolo did to Gamma 2…he does to Vegeta…

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takenstew22

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#34 takenstew22  Moderator

@nassergrant19: If it makes you feel any better I could make a round 2 with Granolah arc SSBE Vegeta (without FSF).

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#35  Edited By nassergrant19  Online
@takenstew22 said:

@nassergrant19: If it makes you feel any better I could make a round 2 with Granolah arc SSBE Vegeta (without FSF).

Feel better? Lol. Nah man I’m chill. Just listing facts from the creator some people still in denial about. Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo has sunk in for most but a few still coping tbh.

Wait Vegeta never used SSBE in the Granolah arc. It was just SSB so idk, obviously you need to use a stronger Vegeta for this Piccolo but that doesn’t exist for the continuity.

UE Vegeta would probably beat Piccolo high-diff but if the next chapter comes out with definitive DBSH content even UE loses.

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takenstew22

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#36 takenstew22  Moderator

@takenstew22 said:

@nassergrant19: If it makes you feel any better I could make a round 2 with Granolah arc SSBE Vegeta (without FSF).

Feel better? Lol. Nah man I’m chill. Just listing facts from the creator some people still in denial about. Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo has sunk in for most but a few still coping tbh.

Wait Vegeta never used SSBE in the Granolah arc. It was just SSB so idk, obviously you need to use a stronger Vegeta for this Piccolo but that doesn’t exist.

UE Vegeta would probably beat Piccolo high-diff but if the next chapter comes out with definitive DBSH content even UE loses.

Vegeta used SSBE I think it's just hard to see in the manga.

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nassergrant19

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#37 nassergrant19  Online

@nassergrant19 said:
@takenstew22 said:

@nassergrant19: If it makes you feel any better I could make a round 2 with Granolah arc SSBE Vegeta (without FSF).

Feel better? Lol. Nah man I’m chill. Just listing facts from the creator some people still in denial about. Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo has sunk in for most but a few still coping tbh.

Wait Vegeta never used SSBE in the Granolah arc. It was just SSB so idk, obviously you need to use a stronger Vegeta for this Piccolo but that doesn’t exist.

UE Vegeta would probably beat Piccolo high-diff but if the next chapter comes out with definitive DBSH content even UE loses.

Vegeta used SSBE I think it's just hard to see in the manga.

Oh ok, I see. That form should be above ToP MUI which Piccolo can scale to at max so Vegeta would likely win.

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#38  Edited By Kyle24

My bet is on Piccolo

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#39 nassergrant19  Online

Piccolo might be able to beat UE Vegeta let alone this form.

Nah UE wins high-diff if DBSH ain’t connected to the manga but Orange Piccolo does oneshot SSBE Vegeta just like he did with Gamma 2.

Vegeta is vastly outmatched in raw power and durability.

He has no chance here.

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@nassergrant19:

Still canon to the anime where his full power is MUI.

Which he can't access on his own.

They included DBSH in the manga recently actually but that’s not the only way.

Show me this.

Broly is above MUI Goku.

Prove this.

Yeah he is. He literally tanked his strongest punch with his aura….

Cell was already tired, lost one arm, and needed Piccolo to hold him down for the final blow where he still had to aim for his weakspot. It also took some time before his special beam canon could pierce through Cell's energy attack.

I think he is a decent amount stronger, but lets not pretend Cell was one shot fodder to him. Especially not a fresh Cell.

Beast Gohan>>>>Cell Max>>MUI Goku/Broly/Jiren=Orange Piccolo

Why do you keep putting Cell Max above Broly when Toriyama said he wasn't?

Piccolo…said it and most people know this except you…

He didn't say kaioken x20. You are the only one who said that.

He said "judging by my battle, those gamma androids seem on par with Goku and Vegeta"

He can't sense their energy, all he knows is how a holding back Gamma 2 beat him up. Judging by this he thinks he is around Goku and Vegeta's level, as they can also beat him up. Unless you think kkx20 SSB Goku wouldn't one shot Piccolo, his statement doesn't hold up well. And the later statement implying Goku and Vegeta might have had a chance against Cell Max makes it even more dubious.

In DBZ/DBS no one ever specifies the form of the person they compare in power.

In DBZ Krillin states Imperfect Cell is stronger than Frieza to Goku.

According to your cope logic, you’d go “He NeVeR SaId WhAt FoRm Of FrIeZa”.

Everyone sensed how powerful Cell was and Cell has better feats. Nobody was guessing his power, and there aren't contradictory feats like with the Gammas.

In DBZ Vegeta says to Goku your stronger than Gohan when he goes SSJ2.

According to your logic, you’d go “He NeVer SaId WhAt FoRm Of GoHaN.”

Um this example doesn't even work because you just said Vegeta specifically mentioned which form. Did you make a mistake writing that? lol. I think you meant Gohan when he fought Cell.

In DBZ Goku says Dabura is as strong as Cell.

According to your logic, you’d go “He NeVeR SaId WhAt StAgE oF CeLl.”

Bruh, the fact you said this really means you don't know the debating meta of dragon ball. This is a massive debate in the community and many people think he is only on par with perfect Cell and not super perfect Cell, especially since Goku said it and that's the version of Cell he fought and he died before super perfect Cell came out.

In DBZ the Supreme Kai states, Buu could oneshot Frieza

According to your logic, “He NeVeR SaId WhaT FoRm oF Frieza”

This is actually another one I think is worth talking about. The supreme kai was shown to be an idiot who didn't know anything about the saiyans and didn't know of their full power. So why would we assume he knows Frieza's full power when Frieza is always in his first form, never trains and never fights? I do think all of the supreme kais can one shot full power Frieza, but that's because they are all stronger than Shin, and Shin is stronger than Kamicolo. Also if you use filler some of the supreme kais gave Buu trouble, and the super manga shows the grand supreme kai is kind of a beast.

On and on…

yeah, you mistyped one of your examples and two of them aren't clear which form they were talking about, lol.

When DB states A is equal or stronger than B, unless they state a weaker form it’s assumed to be their max.

usually, but Piccolo making a guess about how strong they are when he can't sense their energy and other statements and feats contradicting them being as strong as full power Goku and Vegeta make it questionable.

He clearly meant ToP SSBKKX20/SSBE Goku and Vegeta or the Broly versions. As it had to be the full power he’s seen while they were still equal.

I believe in context of the movie it's supposed to be the Broly versions. this thread is using a hypothetical super hero SSBE Vegeta, which is kind of questionable in the first place since we have never seen it, but if we use manga continuity Vegeta has gotten massively stronger because of the granolah arc.

Which only helps my argument and backs up Toriyama’s MUI implication. Broly SSB Goku/Vegeta>>ToP SSBKKX20/SSBE Goku/Vegeta. Unless you believe some strange headcanon that they held back while the Earth is at stake and they admitted there was nothing else they could do.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. The Broly movie was written in a way so it could coincide with both the manga and the anime. I agree Goku and Vegeta were supposed to be using their full power on Broly there. But this puts us into a weird limbo of do ssbkkx20 and SSBE even exist in the movies and how should we scale them. If in the movies SSB is Goku's and Vegeta's max power, then ultimate Gohan and the gammas being equal to them would make more sense.

He no-sold and oneshot someone of that caliber. Which clearly makes you a tier or more above that level. What’s a tier or more above SSBKKX20? UI 3rd trigger and MUI….

The same thing Piccolo did to Gamma 2…he does to Vegeta…

It's possible, but questionable due to

1. Piccolo guessing power of people he can't sense

2. He based it off how well Gamma did against him and even base Goku would beat that Piccolo, let alone SSBKKx20 who would one shot him.

3. Another statement made later in the movie implies Goku and Vegeta being there might have changed the outcome, which would logically put them at least at Orange Piccolo tier as nobody but him could actually do anything to Cell Max.

4. An ultimate Gohan who should be weaker than ToP Gohan who was below SSB Goku and Vegeta was on par with the gammas. Saying Pan being in trouble made him 20x stronger is a head canon cop out to make your scaling align.

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Piccolo ain’t no MUI level not even close even Cell Max is not close to MUI and he stomped Piccolo.

Vegeta wins with some Diff

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#42  Edited By noobsnowman

Once again, stop tagging me in threads where Super Hero characters are concerned.

I don't know much about Piccolo to say who wins this.

EDIT: People have been misunderstanding statements ever since they decide to dishonestly misinterpret the Toyotoro interview to argue that Beerus is stronger than Goku, so its no surprise that they would be doing the same thing here.

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#43 takenstew22  Moderator

@noobsnowman: Sorry. I thought about removing your tag for this but I was lazy.

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#44  Edited By nassergrant19  Online

@alextheboss:

Which he can't access on his own.

Still his full power. Not to mention being tiers above SSBKX20 is already MUI tier…

Show me this.

No Caption Provided

Prove this.

Forcing SSJ Gogeta to go SSB…and having a guidebook state that had he controlled his anger he would’ve beaten fusion all together.

Cell was already tired,

Cell is android with infinite energy and he displayed far more power in the final act than in the beginning where the Z fighters could hang with him. Cope.

I think he is a decent amount stronger, but lets not pretend Cell was one shot fodder to him.

He really was tho. When you can’t bust through a character’s aura with your strongest punch…you know the gap is massive.

Like more massive than Janemba vs SSJ Gogeta

Why do you keep putting Cell Max above Broly when Toriyama said he wasn't?

Because he was completed, it‘s just his mind wasn’t intact.

Also why do you keep putting Piccolo below Goku when Toriyama said he wasn’t?

He didn't say kaioken x20. You are the only one who said that.

That‘s what the implication was because I know for sure he didn’t mean any of your specific held back form headcanons.

”He meant base, or SSJ, or SSJ2 etc lol”

He said "judging by my battle, those gamma androids seem on par with Goku and Vegeta"

He’s seen Goku and Vegeta at their full power in the ToP. He never fought them both.

Unless you think kkx20 SSB Goku wouldn't one shot Piccolo, his statement doesn't hold up well.

Considering Piccolo got stronger due to confirmed training it’s simply a feat for him.

And the later statement implying Goku and Vegeta might have had a chance against Cell Max makes it even more dubious.

Yeah Goku and Vegeta have fusion, and it’s stated they still might‘ve lost. Crazy impressive scaling.

Everyone sensed how powerful Cell was and Cell has better feats. Nobody was guessing his power, and there aren't contradictory feats like with the Gammas.

There are no contradictory feats with the Gammas. Piccolo didn’t guess power as he’s seen Goku/Vegeta’s full power and seen the Gammas as well. Cell didn’t have better feats lmao. He lost to weighted Piccolo and decided to run when the Z-fighters arrived.

Um this example doesn't even work because you just said Vegeta specifically mentioned which form. Did you make a mistake writing that? lol.

More projection lol. I said when Goku turned SSJ2.

I think you meant Gohan when he fought Cell.

I know but I mentioned Goku transforming before Vegeta’s statement and Vegeta didn’t mention what form Gohan was in.

Gohan fought cell with SSJ grade 4 and SSJ2.

Bruh, the fact you said this really means you don't know the debating meta of dragon ball. This is a massive debate in the community and many people think he is only on par with perfect Cell

Why perfect Cell? Why not imperfect or semi perfect? Notice how it’s assumed to be the near max based on Goku’s observation.

Just goes to show you how hypocritical your cope is getting.

This is actually another one I think is worth talking about. The supreme kai was shown to be an idiot who didn't know anything about the saiyans and didn't know of their full power.

While Piccolo is a genius who knows EVERYTHING of Goku and Vegeta’s full power….

So why would we assume he knows Frieza's full power when Frieza is always in his first form, never trains and never fights?

Jesus Christ…

yeah, you mistyped one of your examples

Nah that was just you not understanding

and two of them aren't clear which form they were talking about, lol.

They are extremely clear lol

usually,

99.9% of the time but not here because you and Orange Piccolo…

but Piccolo making a guess about how strong they are when he can't sense their energy and

He isn’t guessing lmao. He witnessed Goku/Vegeta’s full power and compared it to the Gammas. Piccolo is an expert at analyzing his power in comparison to others and he always knows when he’s outmatched. The chance of Toriyama making him say that for shits and giggles, him being wrong, or legit lying is EXTREMELY LOW. So low it’s borderline on the side of cope to believe that.

I believe in context of the movie it's supposed to be the Broly versions.

Good, even better than SSBKKX20.

but if we use manga continuity Vegeta has gotten massively stronger because of the granolah arc.

Yeah but judging from the hiatus and Manga image of DBSH its looking like Piccolo might be over UE as well…lol

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. The Broly movie was written in a way so it could coincide with both the manga and the anime. I agree Goku and Vegeta were supposed to be using their full power on Broly there.

So that’s all we need.

But this puts us into a weird limbo of do ssbkkx20 and SSBE even exist in the movies and how should we scale them.

This is pure mental gymnastics and cope over Orange Piccolo being so powerful. Exist? I swear this is a dumb as believing does Goku know how to do the spirit Bomb? Does Vegeta still have Big Bang attack?

No shit they exist. It’s anime canon that takes place after the ToP which Goku literally mentions. You know?…the place he used SSBKKX20 MULTIPLE times….

If in the movies SSB is Goku's and Vegeta's max power,

Sigh…Broly SSB Goku/Vegeta>>ToP SSBKKX20/SSBE Vegeta

then ultimate Gohan and the gammas being equal to them would make more sense.

Yup Ultimate Gohan=SSBKKX20. Glad you agree.

It's possible,

Like legit 99.9% Bruh. Toriyama was very obvious like always…

but questionable due to

Ah shit here we go again.

1. Piccolo guessing power of people he can't sense

He never guessed the power dude. He analyzed it accurately based on past observations. He does the same shit every fight and is always correct even though everyone else who disagrees can sense power as well as him.

2. He based it off how well Gamma did against him and even base Goku would beat that Piccolo, let alone SSBKKx20 who would one shot him.

He witnessed Goku and Vegeta’s full power and concluded it was similar to there‘s. DBSH base Piccolo was taking full power blows from Gamma 2 before going Orange. Definitely wouldn’t lose to base Goku or get oneshotted by SSBKKX20.

3. Another statement made later in the movie implies Goku and Vegeta being there might have changed the outcome,

Yeah even with access to the fusion dance it was implied they couldn’t change the outcome. That’s crazy scaling for Gohan and Piccolo.

which would logically put them at least at Orange Piccolo tier as nobody but him could actually do anything to Cell Max.

4. An ultimate Gohan who should be weaker than ToP Gohan

That’s your headcanon assumption which isn’t supported at all. DBSH Ultimate Gohan was enraged by Pan which always gives him an extra amp. Not to mention getting pushed to SSBKKX20 then getting pushed to beyond MUI makes more sense.

ToP Gohan was ONESHOT by SSBKK Goku. Not even a real multiplier. While DBSH Gohan was equal to SSBKKX20.

who was below SSB Goku and Vegeta was on par with the gammas. Saying Pan being in trouble made him 20x stronger is a head canon cop out to make your scaling align.

No it isn’t. It‘s far more reasonable than your obsessive headcanon denial of a blatant power up. By your own logic, Gohan Beast shouldn’t make sense either. Since in your reality, Gohan went from Sub-Surpressed Jiren to above MUI when seeing Piccolo in trouble.

Orange Piccolo>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gammas=SSBE Vegeta/Ultimate Gohan/SSBKKX20 Goku

Piccolo still oneshots

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alextheboss

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#45  Edited By alextheboss

@nassergrant19:

Where is the source of that pic? I am caught up on the manga and there is no panel like that.

Forcing SSJ Gogeta to go SSB…

This would only prove he is beyond MUI if ssj Gogeta is above MUI, but there is no proof of that.

and having a guidebook state that had he controlled his anger he would’ve beaten fusion all together.

Can I see this statement?

Cell is android with infinite energy and he displayed far more power in the final act than in the beginning where the Z fighters could hang with him. Cope.

Was it stated Cell max was an infinite energy model? If he is I'll drop that point.

He really was tho. When you can’t bust through a character’s aura with your strongest punch…you know the gap is massive.

So why didn't Gohan one shot him with his kick then?

Because he was completed, it‘s just his mind wasn’t intact.

Here is the statement.

No Caption Provided

Toriyama is clearly talking about the Cell Max we saw in the film. "if Cell Max had been completed according to plan". that means he wasn't. His statement clearly implies that due to him being an uncontrollable monster Broly could defeat him. At worst you can argue Cell Max would only lose due to being an uncontrollably monster but is still physically stronger.

Also why do you keep putting Piccolo below Goku when Toriyama said he wasn’t?

He said he caught up to Goku and company, not he is equal to Goku at maximum power.

Considering Piccolo got stronger due to confirmed training it’s simply a feat for him.

Piccolo has been training his whole life. He was one shot fodder to Tagoma while base Vegeta one shot a stronger Ginyu Tagoma. He then was weaker than Frost in the U6 arc. Then in the ToP arc he was shown to be weaker than base Goku and had to charge up his strongest attack just to push him back. He was consistently shown to be base Gohan level throughout the ToP, and even in the movie, before his power up from Shenron he only did about as well as base Gohan did against the Gammas. Based off his consistent progression and no crazy new type of training or power up, there is no reason he would jump above base Goku and Vegeta, and his base Gohan level feats also contradict him getting a crazy boost until the wish.

Yeah Goku and Vegeta have fusion, and it’s stated they still might‘ve lost. Crazy impressive scaling.

Goku and Vegeta hate fusing and almost never do it. Fusion wasn't mentioned. Trying to argue they meant fusion is highly questionable.

Cell didn’t have better feats lmao. He lost to weighted Piccolo and decided to run when the Z-fighters arrived.

Bruh, that Piccolo was equal to 17 and 18 and he did lose an arm in that fight. Putting any sort of fight against that Piccolo is better than anything namek Frieza had.

More projection lol. I said whenGokuturned SSJ2.

It's not projection, it's your bad grammar. This is what you said.

In DBZ Vegeta says to Goku your stronger than Gohan when he goes SSJ2.

You said Vegeta says to Goku, then wright "your" indicating Vegeta and that it's a quote. You basically wrote Vegeta says to Goku "your stronger than Gohan when he goes ssj2".

Not only that, if you meant Goku not Gohan, that means all you wrote was Goku when he goes ssj2 is stronger than Gohan, and didn't even specify a time frame. That would mean Vegeta was talking about Buu saga Gohan, not Cell games Gohan.

What you should have wrote was "In DBZ Vegeta says to Goku when he turns ssj2 you're stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell"

All in all it was your terrible sentence structure that lead to my interpretation, not my projection, lol.

Why perfect Cell? Why not imperfect or semi perfect? Notice how it’s assumed to be the near max based on Goku’s observation.

Just goes to show you how hypocritical your cope is getting.

Goku was the one making the comparison, and perfect Cell was the only one he fought, and in context it's clear he was talking about perfect Cell. Feats back him up being at least around perfect Cell level as well. Like I said, whether it's super perfect or perfect is another matter. This partially depends on if Gohan was ssj or ssj2 when fighting Dabura. Or he could just be somewhere right in the middle between perfect cell and super perfect, as he was just stated to be around his level, not exactly the same power level.

Jesus Christ…

So no arguments? Supreme Kai proved throughout the entire arc he had no idea how strong Goku and Vegeta truly were. He thought they would need help against Pui Pui and Yakkon... Yeah, there is no indication he knew about Frieza's full power. He didn't know about Goku's, Vegeta's, or Gohan's.

Heck, him not thinking Frieza was a big deal but Yakkon was even though multiple statements and guides would imply Frieza is stronger than Yakkon would help support this.

99.9% of the time but not here because you and Orange Piccolo…

No, like I said it's because of the other statements and feats that I think contradict it.

He isn’t guessing lmao. He witnessed Goku/Vegeta’s full power and compared it to the Gammas. Piccolo is an expert at analyzing his power in comparison to others and he always knows when he’s outmatched. The chance of Toriyama making him say that for shits and giggles, him being wrong, or legit lying is EXTREMELY LOW. So low it’s borderline on the side of cope to believe that.

Um Piccolo said "seem" which would indicate he isn't 100% sure. If he was he would say "are" instead.

Good, even better than SSBKKX20.

It would be better than ToP SSBKKx20, but if you think they can use those forms in the movies, super hero ssbkkx20 Goku would be over 20x stronger than he was in Broly as SSB. If you think he just can't use kk in the movies, then yeah, Piccolo probably clobbers him.

This is pure mental gymnastics and cope over Orange Piccolo being so powerful. Exist? I swear this is a dumb as believing does Goku know how to do the spirit Bomb? Does Vegeta still have Big Bang attack?

No shit they exist. It’s anime canon that takes place after the ToP which Goku literally mentions. You know?…the place he used SSBKKX20 MULTIPLE times….

Bro, you are the one who said SSB had to be as strong or stronger than SSBKKx20 in the Broly movie or it wouldn't make sense. I guess you didn't realize that meant the forms didn't exist in the movie, because if they did it meant Goku and Vegeta illogically held back, regardless how strong their SSB forms were compared to previous arcs.

This is what you said

Which only helps my argument and backs up Toriyama’s MUI implication. Broly SSB Goku/Vegeta>>ToP SSBKKX20/SSBE Goku/Vegeta. Unless you believe some strange headcanon that they held back while the Earth is at stake and they admitted there was nothing else they could do.

So yeah, if you really didn't understand this automatically meant you implied the forms couldn't be used in the movie, and rather it just meant they made their blue stronger than the previous arcs SSBKKx20 and SSBE, then yeah, that would just mean you aren't as objective and clear thinking as you are, and are doing far more cope than I ever did. No mater how strong Goku's SSB form is, kkx20 will ALWAYS be 20x stronger. So either the form doesn't exist in the movie, or Goku held back. You just argued yourself in a corner, but I'm 99.9% sure you will come back next post and say how you actually didn't and I'm wrong, lmao.

No it isn’t. It‘s far more reasonable than your obsessive headcanon denial of a blatant power up. By your own logic, Gohan Beast shouldn’t make sense either. Since in your reality, Gohan went from Sub-Surpressed Jiren to above MUI when seeing Piccolo in trouble.

It' a new form we have no knowledge on. It contradicts nothing. I don't even think Jiren is much more than 100x SSB, he might even be less than that. This form could easily be a 100+ times multiplier for ultimate Gohan, it isn't' that crazy,

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Vegeta.

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I wanna say Piccolo due to statements, but at the same time... there's too much we don't really know, like is the movie following the manga, or the anime? what arc is it taking place before/after? I say Piccolo for right now due to the statements I guess, but my opinion could change.

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Not really because he flat out confirms Piccolo is MUI level…

Unless you think using the word Goku=“Held Back” Goku which is quite nonsensical.

It doesn't confirm it. You are making the statement fit your narrative. You are crafting all these scenarios.

I use both

You have never once used feats. You have used a statement that is being misinterpreted and some made up scaling. Scaling isn't feats.

Yeah Broly is above MUI Goku and also has statements to confirm it as well.

I'll let Alex handle that one as we likely have the same arguments against this.

So the smartest fighter in DBS who witnessed Goku and Vegeta’s full power isn’t a confirmation? Gee guess Toriyama was high when he made him say that lol.

It isn't a question of being smart. It is a question of the actual quote, which again you are not understanding.

No Caption Provided

There is no possible way for this to ever mean Gammas are = to x20.

For starters, he is judging the attacks of Gamma vs Piccolo ( from his first battle ), vs the strength of Goku and Vegeta.

X20 would literally one shot Piccolo, if not straight turn him to mush. Goku one shot Gohan, who himself was shown to be stronger then Piccolo. Goku was only in x10 here, Piccolo was so blinded he couldn't even look at the fight, and Goku was still holding back.

The mere fact that Piccolo wasn't beaten in a few hits means it simply couldn't refer to x20 power levels.

LMAO wut? Are you kidding me. I’m sorry this is maximum cope. In DBZ/DBS no one ever specifies the form of the person they compare in power.

On and on…

When DB states A is equal or stronger than B, unless they state a weaker form it’s assumed to be their max.

They are all taken with a grain of salt as well. For every quote you mentioned, there are 10 times as many quotes throughout Dragon Ball that simply aren't accurate or not from a place of knowledge.