(Open4Votes) Mid Tier Live Action Tournament- round 1- @Shade545 vs @geekryan

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death4bunnies

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#1  Edited By death4bunnies  Online

@shade545:

2018 VenomMCU MysterioSpeed Equalized(10)

20 Minutes of Prep Anywhere (5)

VS

@geekryan:

FOX StormCW The Atom20 minutes of prep anywhere (5)

Basic Knowledge (3)

Morals Off (6)

Tournament Rules8 participants total

Pick any 2 characters to form your team

Pick 15 points of perks

You can sacrifice 1 character for 5 extra perk points.

death incap or KO

In character

Full gear

Battle Location New York City Times Square

Start 100 meters apart

LA feats only.

Voting RulesOnly the two participants are allowed to debate

If you want to be tagged to vote at the end, say "T4V"

Vote for whoever was the best debater, or who convinced you more, not for which team you think would win

Make sure to provide reasoning for your vote

Votes based onobvious character bias will not be counted

Be respectful, honourable, and civil

Link to signups.

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#2  Edited By Shade545
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#4  Edited By Shade545

@death4bunnies: Also, the speed equalized perk slows everyone down to the slowest character right? Which includes everything like reaction, combat speed and travel speed?

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TAEP

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#6 death4bunnies  Online

@shade545 said:

@death4bunnies: Also, the speed equalized perk slows everyone down to the slowest character right? Which includes everything like reaction, combat speed and travel speed?

Yes

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@shade545 said:

@death4bunnies: Also, the speed equalized perk slows everyone down to the slowest character right? Which includes everything like reaction, combat speed and travel speed?

Yes

But not attack speeds

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#8 death4bunnies  Online

@geekryan said:
@death4bunnies said:
@shade545 said:

@death4bunnies: Also, the speed equalized perk slows everyone down to the slowest character right? Which includes everything like reaction, combat speed and travel speed?

Yes

But not attack speeds

Correct...energy blasts and bullets retain there speed.

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Post #1 - Opener

FOX Storm

No Caption Provided

Ororo Munroe, codename Storm, is a mutant with the power of atmokinesis, AKA weather manipulation. This allows her to create and control lightning, wind, rain, and other types of weather phenomena. By controlling wind, she is capable of flight. She can generate lightning from her hands and from the sky. She is also immune to weather conditions, such as cold winds and lightning.

Feats

Physicals

Storm has decent blunt force durability. In X1, she takes two kicks from Toad and falls down an elevator shaft, but recovers a few minutes later. In X3, she tanks a multi-story fall and quickly recovers to fight Callisto; Storm takes a few speed-enhanced hits from her and then counters.

In Dark Phoenix, she traded blows with Akiri and was fine after getting tossed around.

Lightning

Wind

Miscellaneous

Moving on...

CW Atom

No Caption Provided

Dr. Raymond "Ray" Palmer is a former CEO of Palmer Technologies and creator of the Atom exosuit. He is a genius-level intellect with 4 PhDs and is an expert in the fields of engineering, robotics, physics, and computers.

The Atom exosuit that he created provides him with the abilities of size alteration, energy projection, flight, and superhuman physicals. He is a very experienced superhero, having fought alongside Team Arrow as a vigilante and with the Legends of Tomorrow as a protector of the timelines. He has faced many different types of threats, from superhuman, to technological, to magical.

Feats

Physicals

To note: even while shrunk, the Atom still retains the same superhuman physicals as if he was normal size.

Even without the Atom suit, Ray was capable of tanking a massive explosion.

Energy Projection

His energy projection comes in the form of electricity or plasma bolts.

Size Alteration

That's it for now!

Perks & Prep

Basic Knowledge

This gives my team knowledge about your team; as much as is displayed on the characters' Wikia pages. This includes their background, history, powers, abilities, and weaknesses. It does not include all of this information or every single one of their feats, but most of it will be known to my team. This gives my team a significant advantage over yours, as they will know exactly who they will be facing while your team will be going in blind.

Morals Off

Pretty simple: Storm and Atom will be 100% willing to kill your team by any means necessary. They will not be holding back.

20 Minutes of Prep Anywhere

The 20 minutes of prep will take place on the battlefield itself, in New York's Times Square. I will separate the prep into three phases.

Phase 1

The first few minutes of the prep will involve Storm and Atom discussing each other's powers and abilities. They will also discuss their opponents, as per the basic knowledge perk. This will allow them to coordinate and strategize in order to come up with a solid strategy to beat your team.

Phase 2

The second phase of prep will involve Storm affecting the battlefield with her powers.

One of Storm's abilities is the power to create/dissipate fog. Here are some examples of her doing so:

Instant fog over water and all of Liberty Island.
Instant fog over water and all of Liberty Island.
Although Storm can see through the fog, Wolverine cannot, so she dissipates it for him to see.
Although Storm can see through the fog, Wolverine cannot, so she dissipates it for him to see.
Covers Alcatraz Island with fog.
Covers Alcatraz Island with fog.
Uses powers to see through fog and then dissipate it.
Uses powers to see through fog and then dissipate it.

On the ground level, Storm will conjure up a thick fog to cover as much area as possible. Storm did this in X1 and X3, within a few seconds, to cover Liberty/Alcatraz Island. With a bit more time, she can likely cover a larger area, and with thicker fog, like the one she dispersed for Wolverine in X2. It was thick enough that Wolverine stated he couldn't see "a damn thing", including the various pieces of floating debris and objects in the area. This will severely limit your team's visibility, while not affecting mine at all because Storm can see through fog, and Atom's suit comes with enhanced vision, X-Ray vision, telescopic vision, and facial recognition:

No Caption Provided

In the air, shortly before the battle begins, Storm will begin channeling strong winds, like she did in the future scene of Days of Future Past. (VIDEO)

These winds were powerful enough to slow, redirect, and crash some of the massive, flying carriers filled with dozens of Future Sentinels each. Because Storm will be channeling this exclusively in the air, it will not affect the fog on ground level. So on ground level, there will be fog, and in the air, there will be strong winds. Note that Storm was still able to use lightning while channeling the winds, proving that she can still attack while channeling.

Phase 3

The third and final phase of the prep will involve Atom and his suit's shrinking capabilities. He is able to shrink/enlarge himself at will, but he can also shrink other people or objects:

No Caption Provided

In this GIF, Ray shrinks Zari and himself to roughly an inch in height. Note how Zari can still use her powers while shrunk. As stated by Ray, the people/objects affected by his shrink ray will return to normal size after 24 hours, or he can manually unshrink them.

Ray is going to shrink himself and Storm down. While Ray can alter his own size at will and during combat to suit his needs, Storm will remain small for the battle. This will make it incredibly difficult for your team to see/detect her, and she could still use her powers of weather manipulation just as effectively as she could in normal size. She can also fly around to further avoid detection.

To recap:

  1. Storm & Atom discuss their capabilities and the capabilities of the opposing team, in order to strategize and come up with a battle plan.
  2. Storm will cover the ground with thick fog and channel strong winds above the fog, a few meters above the ground.
  3. Atom will shrink himself and Storm down to a few centimetres in size.

Then the fun begins...

Strategy

As the battle begins, a thick fog will be covering the ground level while Storm channels her intense winds above the fog. Keep in mind that both Atom and Storm are shrunk at this point too, so they will be very small and almost impossible to see.

Atom can use his suit's enhanced vision capabilities to scan for Mysterio through any drones/illusions he might have. Once he is located, Atom can fly to him and instantly take him out with a punch or energy bolt. Ray can then use EDITH to stop the drones, or better yet, have them fire on Venom.

If any drones or Venom attempt to go above the fog, they will be bombarded by Storm's powerful winds. Even while channeling the storm, she can still fire off lightning bolts. If the winds aren't working, she can switch to forming multiple tornadoes in the area. Since Storm can see through fog, she can also take out Mysterio, Venom, and/or the drones with lightning bolts, while they are in the fog.

This is my strategy for now, but it may change depending on how you go about your prep and strategy.

Initial Considerations

Mysterio

With basic knowledge and the ability to fly/function in space, Atom can locate the Stark Industries Satellite, shrink it down, and destroy it. This can happen during prep or at the start of the battle. Doing so would completely eliminate Mysterio's ability to summon any combat drones via EDITH, rendering him pretty useless.

In the unlikely event that this does not happen, there is a very simple flaw that foils Mysterio's ability to create Elemental illusions or any large-scale illusions: he needs knowledge, a lot of prep time, and a crew of people to do so. Since your team has zero knowledge on my team, no crew, and only 20 minutes to prepare, it is unlikely that Mysterio could come up with any large-scale illusion like he did in Far From Home. The best he can do is use the drones to attack and create small-scale illusions, which my team, via basic knowledge, will be expecting. Atom's suit provides him with things like enhanced vision, X-ray vision, telescopic vision, and facial recognition, in order to locate Beck and take him out right away. Doing so will provide Ray with EDITH and allow him to stop the drones or even have them fire on Venom.

The durability of the drones themselves are quite poor, so they would easily get destroyed by Storm's lightning/winds, or Atom's strikes/energy projection. As for Mysterio himself, a single strike from either of my characters would down him. Mysterio and the drones also have no answer to Storm's fog as there is no indication that they could see through it.

Venom

Venom has decent strength, and he is difficult to put down, but due to your speed equalized perk, he won't be as much of a threat as usual. The perk equalizes everyone's speed down to the slowest character, which is Mysterio in this case, since he is an average human. Due to Storm and Atom being shrunk, Venom will unlikely be able to detect them. Even if he does detect them, he will be unable to tag them since they can both fly, while Venom is restricted to the ground, scaling buildings, or leaping around.

Venom's two main weaknesses are high-frequency sounds and fire. These weaknesses will be known to my team due to basic knowledge. There isn't much that can be done in the way of high-frequency sounds, but my team has something even better than fire: lightning & electricity. Lightning has intense heat, and it can start fires. Electricity can cause fires as well. Our battle being in Times Square means there are a lot of great conductors of electricity around: cars, lamp posts, signs, etc. Venom's only showing against electricity is from getting hit by two tasers. This brief tasering did in fact stun/stagger him for a moment. A taser delivers around 1200 volts of electricity to a human target:

Taser International also says that while its device can deliver up to 50,000 volts in an open air arc only, it does not deliver that much voltage to a person's body. The company says its Taser X26 delivers an average of 1,200 volts. - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/facts-about-stun-guns-and-their-use-in-canada-1.810288

A typical lightning bolt contains 1 billion volts. Since that eclipses Venom's one showing against two brief tasers, I'm pretty certain that Storm can kill Venom with her lightning. He might regenerate, but Storm doesn't need to stop at one single lightning bolt; she can fire off several in a row, or do a continuous blast.

As per my prep and strategy, Venom has no answer to Storm's fog or strong winds. Venom never demonstrated anything remotely close to seeing through fog, and Storm's winds would easily blast him away should he try to jump above the fog.

Lastly, Mysterio and Venom are unlikely to work with each other, so don't expect any sort of teamwork from them. They won't attack each other, but they also won't cooperate with each other.

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@geekryan: I like how creative you got with your team. I'll work on mine when i get the time.

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@shade545 said:

@geekryan: I like how creative you got with your team. I'll work on mine when i get the time.

Thanks! And sounds good :)

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#14  Edited By Viking1205

@geekryan: That's an simple strategy, extremely effective too.

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#15  Edited By Shade545

Mysterio, master of illusions

No Caption Provided

Quentin Beck is a former Stark Industries employee who sought to give the world a new hero. Using the illusion technology from drones created by Stark Industries, he was able to gain the EDITH glasses from Spider-Man, giving him access to more greater tech and illusion abilities.

Drones

Most of Mysterios usefulness comes from the combat drones supplied by an orbital satellite. The drones are not only armed with illusion tech, but also with an assortment of weapons

Illusions

His illusions are so lifelike that Spider-Man falls for them despite having full knowledge that they aren't real

The drones can make Quentin invisible. Spider--Man knew where Beck was due to his Spider-Sense

General

Dodges Spider-Man's webs

Armed with rockets

And lasers

and flamethrowers

Venom

No Caption Provided

Venom was a symbiote who attached to a reporter named Eddie Brock due to having the correct genetic makeup to suit its needs. The symbiote has impressive durability and can extend its limbs further to attack targets from afar.

General

Tosses people around effortlessly

Throws a person through a concrete pillar

Breaks off metal

Lays the smackdown on a group of soldiers

Kicks Riot back several feet

Climbs buildings at an incredible speed

Shotguns do not bother him

Machine guns are useless against him

Survives being impales with numerous spikes

Prep and strategy

First off, Beck will instantly summon all the drones from the satellite, and they will all take positions in various areas around the city. Venom will then climb a building and observe from a vantage point. Mysterio will then travel as far as he can from times square as he can without it being considered self BFR. For reference, Manhattan is 13.4 miles long and 2.3 miles wide.

No Caption Provided

Using the 20 minutes of prep, Mysterio spend the first 10 traveling away from times square and take refuge in a random building as well as take several drones with him not only for extra protection, but to make him invisible a project a false Mysterio elsewhere. The drones will then attempt to make times square look different than what it is. Perhaps create illusions of random people to throw your team off. Once the battle starts, the drones will start off using illusions. If your team starts to foil the illusions however, the drones will start firing bullets at your team, then flamethrowers, than lasers, then missiles. If that doesn't work, Venom himself will come down and begin to fight your team himself. All the while Mysterio is controlling the drones from a random far away building.

Counters

One of Storm's abilities is the power to create/dissipate fog. Here are some examples of her doing so:

This should only affect your prep time and not mine. The drones will already be flying around the city by the time

In the air, shortly before the battle begins, Storm will begin channeling strong winds, like she did in the future scene of Days of Future Past.

This is okay, but the there is not really any reason for the drones to be that high as they will really only need to be ground level anyway. There isn't anything wrong with sending a few drones that high but we have so many drones it really doesn't matter.

Ray is going to shrink himself and Storm down. While Ray can alter his own size at will and during combat to suit his needs, Storm will remain small for the battle. This will make it incredibly difficult for your team to see/detect her, and she could still use her powers of weather manipulation just as effectively as she could in normal size. She can also fly around to further avoid detection.

What makes you think Storm is going to agree to this so easily? She has never been shrunk before and all she has is Ray's work that it's safe. She also has no experience working at that size while Ray has plenty. She just has the words of a person she doen't know to go off and that's it. And there isn't anyone else around to demonstrate it one to prove to her it's safe either.

Atom can use his suit's enhanced vision capabilities to scan for Mysterio through any drones/illusions he might have. Once he is located, Atom can fly to him and instantly take him out with a punch or energy bolt. Ray can then use EDITH to stop the drones, or better yet, have them fire on Venom.

How far can he see with them? Mysterio is going to be hidden pretty far away not to mention all the other chaos going around the the drones and stuff. He should also have no idea how to use EDITH as your basic knowledge perk only gives your team knowledge on what my team can do and not the ins and outs of specific tech they have.

With basic knowledge and the ability to fly/function in space, Atom can locate the Stark Industries Satellite, shrink it down, and destroy it. This can happen during prep or at the start of the battle. Doing so would completely eliminate Mysterio's ability to summon any combat drones via EDITH, rendering him pretty useless.

There are multiple problems with this

1: In order to even get to space within the legal rules of this tourney, you will have to choose it as your other place of prep

2: They will have to know where in space the satellite is located. Even then, the drones can reach earth after being deployed in a very short amount of time, and this will be the very first thing my team will do with prep.

3: Can he even reach space that fast? This will also cut into your prep time.

In the unlikely event that this does not happen, there is a very simple flaw that foils Mysterio's ability to create Elemental illusions or any large-scale illusions: he needs knowledge, a lot of prep time, and a crew of people to do so. Since your team has zero knowledge on my team, no crew, and only 20 minutes to prepare, it is unlikely that Mysterio could come up with any large-scale illusion like he did in Far From Home. The best he can do is use the drones to attack and create small-scale illusions, which my team, via basic knowledge, will be expecting.

True, but i don't think it's really necessary to have illusions on that scale. Spider-Man also knew about Mysterio's illusions but still fell for them. So i don't see how ti would work out any differently here.

The durability of the drones themselves are quite poor, so they would easily get destroyed by Storm's lightning/winds, or Atom's strikes/energy projection. As for Mysterio himself, a single strike from either of my characters would down him. Mysterio and the drones also have no answer to Storm's fog as there is no indication that they could see through it.

True, but there are tons of them and the illusions will already have been set u at the beginning of the fight.

Venom's two main weaknesses are high-frequency sounds and fire. These weaknesses will be known to my team due to basic knowledge. There isn't much that can be done in the way of high-frequency sounds, but my team has something even better than fire: lightning & electricity. Lightning has intense heat, and it can start fires. Electricity can cause fires as well. Our battle being in Times Square means there are a lot of great conductors of electricity around: cars, lamp posts, signs, etc. Venom's only showing against electricity is from getting hit by two tasers. This brief tasering did in fact stun/stagger him for a moment. A taser delivers around 1200 volts of electricity to a human target:

Eddie was not completely covered by the symbiote in this instance. If he was, the tasers probably wouldn't have so much as tickled. I'm not saying he would be able to survive lighting blast, but it's worth pointing out

He might regenerate, but Storm doesn't need to stop at one single lightning bolt; she can fire off several in a row, or do a continuous blast.

This isn't even likely to happen as she still needs to deal with the drones's illusions.

Lastly, Mysterio and Venom are unlikely to work with each other, so don't expect any sort of teamwork from them. They won't attack each other, but they also won't cooperate with each other.

My strategy doesn't rely on teamwork from them, but it's more logical to think they would work together while Storm has to trust Ray to use technology whom she has no past experience with on her.

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#16  Edited By Shade545
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Post #2 - Counters

Mysterio

His illusions are so lifelike that Spider-Man falls for them despite having full knowledge that they aren't real

This required knowledge and extensive prep for Mysterio to pull off. No knowledge, 20 minutes of prep, and a random means he won't be able to pull this off, at least not on this scale and not as effectively. My team also has basic knowledge, so they will be expecting this.

The drones can make Quentin invisible. Spider--Man knew where Beck was due to his Spider-Sense

Mysterio only ever went invisible once throughout the entire movie though, so it isn't likely he would do so in combat. Even then, Atom would be able to see Quentin through invisibility.

Dodges Spider-Man's webs

They also got tagged multiple times by Spider-Man and his webs, like here:

No Caption Provided

And here:

No Caption Provided

And here:

No Caption Provided

One was also staggered by a teenage girl with a medieval mace:

No Caption Provided

And one was completely obliterated by an RPG:

No Caption Provided

Any drone would be one-shotted by Storm's lightning or Atom's blasts.

Armed with rockets

This would take out Storm, but not Atom. His durability is too high. The rockets were also never used against humans AFAIK.

And lasers

It took an extended period of time just to go through a metal door, and the lasers were also never used against humans.

and flamethrowers

Would hurt Storm, but not Atom.

Venom

Tosses people around effortlessly

This would do nothing to Atom, and Storm could possibly tank a strike or two as well.

Throws a person through a concrete pillar

Better, but would still do nothing to Atom.

Breaks off metal

Atom's strength is vastly superior to this.

Lays the smackdown on a group of soldiers

This is better, but would not do much against Atom.

Kicks Riot back several feet

Atom is more durable than Venom and Riot.

Climbs buildings at an incredible speed

Impressive, but with speed equalized, Venom will be slowed down to Quentin's level.

Shotguns do not bother him

Machine guns are useless against him

Good thing neither Storm nor Atom use guns ;)

Survives being impales with numerous spikes

He does survive this, but he is seriously injured from it. And neither Storm nor Atom use piercing attacks anyways.

Prep/Strategy

First off, Beck will instantly summon all the drones from the satellite, and they will all take positions in various areas around the city.

So if I understand correctly, Beck will have the drones spread out across the city? Doing so will significantly reduce their effectiveness since they are more dangerous in groups and within proximity to each other.

Venom will then climb a building and observe from a vantage point.

Seems out of character for him, but okay.

Mysterio will then travel as far as he can from times square as he can without it being considered self BFR. For reference, Manhattan is 13.4 miles long and 2.3 miles wide.

Why would Mysterio do this? Quentin never "BFR'd" himself, he was always present or nearby but guarded by a pair of drones. He is unlikely to do this in character.

Using the 20 minutes of prep, Mysterio spend the first 10 traveling away from times square and take refuge in a random building as well as take several drones with him not only for extra protection, but to make him invisible a project a false Mysterio elsewhere.

Again, Mysterio never did anything remotely close to this strategy. He was always present or nearby the action, and only ever protected himself with an initial two drones. He also never made himself invisible except for when Spider-Man destroyed his drones and he felt threatened/desperate.

The drones will then attempt to make times square look different than what it is. Perhaps create illusions of random people to throw your team off. Once the battle starts, the drones will start off using illusions.

Via basic knowledge, my team will be anticipating the illusions. Furthermore, they won't fool Atom due to the enhanced vision that his suit provides him.

If your team starts to foil the illusions however, the drones will start firing bullets at your team, then flamethrowers, than lasers, then missiles.

Bullets, flamethrowers, and missiles won't do anything to Atom. The missiles and lasers were only ever used on non-human targets too, from what I remember.

If that doesn't work, Venom himself will come down and begin to fight your team himself. All the while Mysterio is controlling the drones from a random far away building.

Having Venom not engage at the beginning actually works in favour for my team as they can deal with the drones, then Quentin, then Venom, in that order.

Counters

This should only affect your prep time and not mine. The drones will already be flying around the city by the time

Well no, because Quentin has to summon them from the satellite first, which takes some time. If anything, the fog will be appearing as Quentin summons the drones, not afterwards.

This is okay, but the there is not really any reason for the drones to be that high as they will really only need to be ground level anyway. There isn't anything wrong with sending a few drones that high but we have so many drones it really doesn't matter.

"That high" is only a few meters above ground level. So if any of them try to get out of the fog and fly around, they will be affected by the storm and destroyed.

What makes you think Storm is going to agree to this so easily? She has never been shrunk before and all she has is Ray's work that it's safe. She also has no experience working at that size while Ray has plenty. She just has the words of a person she doen't know to go off and that's it. And there isn't anyone else around to demonstrate it one to prove to her it's safe either.

Why wouldn't she? She's a glass cannon. Getting shrunk vastly increases her survivability, and Ray is a good-natured, charming, and charismatic person. Storm is used to working on a team, so she would have no reason not to agree to a strategy that betters her chances of survival by a large margin.

Ray could demonstrate it on himself, an object, a bird, etc. if need be.

How far can he see with them? Mysterio is going to be hidden pretty far away not to mention all the other chaos going around the the drones and stuff. He should also have no idea how to use EDITH as your basic knowledge perk only gives your team knowledge on what my team can do and not the ins and outs of specific tech they have.

At least a few meters, but he can zoom in with the telescopic vision.

I already explained why it makes no sense for Mysterio to "BFR" himself. And there is also no telling how that would affect his ability to control the drones, since he has always been shown to do so from the immediate area.

Even basic knowledge on Mysterio would give my team a basis of what EDITH is and what it does. Coupled with Ray's genius-level intellect, his skills in engineering, computers, and science, and tons of experience wearing a high-tech super suit, it is very plausible that Ray can figure out EDITH. I mean, both Quentin and Peter figured it out rather quickly.

1: In order to even get to space within the legal rules of this tourney, you will have to choose it as your other place of prep

How? My team is beginning their prep in New York City. Through his suit's capabilities, Ray can fly himself to the satellite within a short period of time. That isn't against the rules.

2: They will have to know where in space the satellite is located. Even then, the drones can reach earth after being deployed in a very short amount of time, and this will be the very first thing my team will do with prep.

That isn't very difficult to do, especially for someone like Atom. He can fly, he can survive in space, he has enhanced vision, etc.

It takes some time, and that was only for one drone. There is no indication as to how long it would take to summon several drones.

3: Can he even reach space that fast? This will also cut into your prep time.

All he is doing during the 20 minutes of prep is discussing with Storm a bit and shrinking both of them. That would take a few minutes at most, allowing him to spend the rest of the time locating the satellite and traveling to it.

True, but i don't think it's really necessary to have illusions on that scale. Spider-Man also knew about Mysterio's illusions but still fell for them. So i don't see how ti would work out any differently here.

Because at this point in his superhero career, Spider-Man is pretty young, naive, inexperienced, and overzealous. Both Storm and Ray are significantly more experienced, battle-hardened, and strategic. With basic knowledge, they would know not to fall for any illusions.

True, but there are tons of them and the illusions will already have been set u at the beginning of the fight.

As will have Storm's fog...

Eddie was not completely covered by the symbiote in this instance. If he was, the tasers probably wouldn't have so much as tickled. I'm not saying he would be able to survive lighting blast, but it's worth pointing out

I think it's the opposite actually. Eddie, while not being fully merged with the Symbiote, was weaker. When fully merged with the Symbiote, Eddie was stronger. This suggests that being fully merged with the Symbiote would also increase his weaknesses, since they are more connected. The Symbiote is Eddie's source of power, but his weaknesses come from the Symbiote as well.

This isn't even likely to happen as she still needs to deal with the drones's illusions.

That need to deal with Storm while she is shrunk and either hidden by fog or surrounded by a powerful storm...

My strategy doesn't rely on teamwork from them, but it's more logical to think they would work together while Storm has to trust Ray to use technology whom she has no past experience with on her.

I completely disagree. It makes significantly more sense for Storm & Ray to work together, than for Mysterio & Venom to work together. Storm and Ray's personalities and morals align very well; the same can't be said for Mysterio and Venom.

Conclusion

Nothing has changed with my strategy and I'm even more certain now that my team would win.

  • You did not come up with any counter for Storm's fog and how you would even see my team.
  • You did not come up with any counter for both my characters being shrunk and thus significantly harder to see and target.
  • There is absolutely no reason why Mysterio would leave the battlefield when all of his scenes from Far From Home had him remaining in/near the action.
  • It is unlikely Mysterio would make himself invisible right off the bat, since he only did so once at the end when he got desperate and tried to take Spider-Man by surprise.
  • Mysterio's illusions (at least on a larger scale) require knowledge, extensive prep, and a support crew, none of which Quentin has in this situation. He could still pull off smaller illusions, but my team will be aware of them via basic knowledge and Ray can see through them due to his suit's enhanced vision.
  • Mysterio and his drones can all be one-shotted by any of Atom or Storm's attacks.
  • Nothing the drones or Venom can do would put Atom down, even if he wasn't shrunk. In order for the drones to even attack Storm/Atom, they would have to be able to see them while they are shrunk.
  • Venom would go down pretty quickly from a few of Storm's lightning bolts, and he would get stomped by Atom.
  • Storm & Atom will work well together, whereas Mysterio & Venom are unlikely to cooperate with each other at all.
  • I addressed each and every one of your arguments/counters, while you failed to address many of mine.

Your move.

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#24  Edited By Shade545

@geekryan:

Counters - Mysterio

This required knowledge and extensive prep for Mysterio to pull off. No knowledge, 20 minutes of prep, and a random means he won't be able to pull this off, at least not on this scale and not as effectively. My team also has basic knowledge, so they will be expecting this.

Yes it did, but honestly large scale illusions shouldn't be required here.

Mysterio only ever went invisible once throughout the entire movie though, so it isn't likely he would do so in combat. Even then, Atom would be able to see Quentin through invisibility.

He's not going to engage in combat. He's going to be hidden in a random far away building for the precise reason that he isn't going to fight. And he shouldn't be able to find him anyway.

They also got tagged multiple times by Spider-Man and his webs, like here:

And your point is? Some drones are able to dodge his webs and some aren't.

One was also staggered by a teenage girl with a medieval mace

Yes it was staggered but not damaged by the attack.

And one was completely obliterated by an RPG:

Just shows how much power it takes to bring one down.

Any drone would be one-shotted by Storm's lightning or Atom's blasts.

Even if it could, Storm wouldn't be able to see them through the illusions.

This would take out Storm, but not Atom. His durability is too high. The rockets were also never used against humans AFAIK.

He was clearly staggered by an arguably weaker missile in one of the feats you posted. And i don't see how the missiles never being used against humans matter here.

It took an extended period of time just to go through a metal door, and the lasers were also never used against humans.

Atom should be able to handle this but not Storm.

Would hurt Storm, but not Atom.

Since both Ray and Storm are tiny, the flamethrowers would cover their entire body if they got hit by it. And this is the second time you admit to Storm being very susceptible to our attacks.

Counters - Venom

This would do nothing to Atom, and Storm could possibly tank a strike or two as well.

Once more you admit Storm being highly likely to be taken out.

Better, but would still do nothing to Atom.

He can't take this attacks forever.

Atom's strength is vastly superior to this.

I agree, but Venom should tank Atom's attacks as well

This is better, but would not do much against Atom.

I see you are falling back on Atom's durability to prove that he can beat my team. It's gonna take more that to beat Venom and the drones. At best, he's gonna get thrashed around a lot while going nowhere.

Atom is more durable than Venom and Riot.

Yes, but he's eventually going to get KO'd.

Impressive, but with speed equalized, Venom will be slowed down to Quentin's level.

So will your team. It just means they will have to rely on human level speed to dodge bullets, missiles and flamethrowers. Speed also doesn't matter when All of our characters are fighting in close quarters since it's equal.

Good thing neither Storm nor Atom use guns ;)

Okay?

He does survive this, but he is seriously injured from it. And neither Storm nor Atom use piercing attacks anyways.

It shows you how much he can survive. And even if your team did have piercing attacks, it would have to be more impressive than this to kill him.

So if I understand correctly, Beck will have the drones spread out across the city? Doing so will significantly reduce their effectiveness since they are more dangerous in groups and within proximity to each other.

Disagreed. I think the drones will be able to place more illusions in more varied areas.

Seems out of character for him, but okay.

What makes you think this? It would be the most logical choice as opposed to getting in the middle of the drones weaponry when your team is fighting them.

Why would Mysterio do this? Quentin never "BFR'd" himself, he was always present or nearby but guarded by a pair of drones. He is unlikely to do this in character.

Yes he was and that's why he will take some drones with him. There's a reason Quentin never fought anyone directly and always hid and let his drones do the work.

Again, Mysterio never did anything remotely close to this strategy. He was always present or nearby the action, and only ever protected himself with an initial two drones. He also never made himself invisible except for when Spider-Man destroyed his drones and he felt threatened/desperate.

He did this when Spider-Man was about to confront him which makes sense. And he was able to control the drones from a distance. If the event your team somehow finds him, he will become invisible here too.

Via basic knowledge, my team will be anticipating the illusions. Furthermore, they won't fool Atom due to the enhanced vision that his suit provides him.

Basic knowledge does not guarantee they will be able to see past the illusions. Even if they can't affect Atom Storm will still be affected and will probably be killed by the drones leaving only Atom to fend for himself.

Bullets, flamethrowers, and missiles won't do anything to Atom. The missiles and lasers were only ever used on non-human targets too, from what I remember.

Once more how does this matter? And you keep falling back on Atoms durability which to me at this point seems to be your trump card.

Having Venom not engage at the beginning actually works in favour for my team as they can deal with the drones, then Quentin, then Venom, in that order.

Venom is only going to engage after seeing your team is successfully destroying the drones (After they start using their weapons and stop using the illusions) and this is assuming your team even finds Mysterio.

Counters - Your arguments

Well no, because Quentin has to summon them from the satellite first, which takes some time. If anything, the fog will be appearing as Quentin summons the drones, not afterwards.

You seem to think that we both share the same prep space. As in, our prep happens together. This is not at all the case for tournies in general.

"That high" is only a few meters above ground level. So if any of them try to get out of the fog and fly around, they will be affected by the storm and destroyed.

It's a good thing i have lots of them.

Why wouldn't she? She's a glass cannon. Getting shrunk vastly increases her survivability, and Ray is a good-natured, charming, and charismatic person. Storm is used to working on a team, so she would have no reason not to agree to a strategy that betters her chances of survival by a large margin.

Ray could demonstrate it on himself, an object, a bird, etc. if need be.

It's still altering her body. She doesn't know Ray at all. Object aren't enough assurance that it's safe and for al she knows it could be the suit that's helping him shrink.

At least a few meters, but he can zoom in with the telescopic vision.

Won't be enough.

I already explained why it makes no sense for Mysterio to "BFR" himself. And there is also no telling how that would affect his ability to control the drones, since he has always been shown to do so from the immediate area.

You wouldn't think Tony Stark's technology would be able to controlled from maybe a mile or two away. So far you made more wild assumptions than this.

Even basic knowledge on Mysterio would give my team a basis of what EDITH is and what it does. Coupled with Ray's genius-level intellect, his skills in engineering, computers, and science, and tons of experience wearing a high-tech super suit, it is very plausible that Ray can figure out EDITH. I mean, both Quentin and Peter figured it out rather quickly.

EDITH is a very different thing than what Ray is familiar with. Just because you know how to work a computer doesn't mean you know how to work a plane. And both Quentin and Peter have past experience with Tony's tech so it shouldn't come as a surprise.

How? My team is beginning their prep in New York City. Through his suit's capabilities, Ray can fly himself to the satellite within a short period of time. That isn't against the rules.

And that's the only place it's gonna stay. You are leaving your prep location by doing this. And like before, you are assuming our prep is effecting eachothers space,

That isn't very difficult to do, especially for someone like Atom. He can fly, he can survive in space, he has enhanced vision, etc.

It takes some time, and that was only for one drone. There is no indication as to how long it would take to summon several drones.

This doesn't explain how he would be able to find the satellite. And it should plenty of time for all the drones to get there considering it's the first thing we do.

All he is doing during the 20 minutes of prep is discussing with Storm a bit and shrinking both of them. That would take a few minutes at most, allowing him to spend the rest of the time locating the satellite and traveling to it.

I've already debunked this.

Because at this point in his superhero career, Spider-Man is pretty young, naive, inexperienced, and overzealous. Both Storm and Ray are significantly more experienced, battle-hardened, and strategic. With basic knowledge, they would know not to fall for any illusions.

Yes Peter is not as experienced as your characters but they will still (At least Storm) be affected by the illusions.

As will have Storm's fog...

Nope.

I think it's the opposite actually. Eddie, while not being fully merged with the Symbiote, was weaker. When fully merged with the Symbiote, Eddie was stronger. This suggests that being fully merged with the Symbiote would also increase his weaknesses, since they are more connected. The Symbiote is Eddie's source of power, but his weaknesses come from the Symbiote as well.

Once more this is speculation. Something we are both guilty of but i firmly believe it's more severe in your case.

That need to deal with Storm while she is shrunk and either hidden by fog or surrounded by a powerful storm...

And will likely be taken out quick according to your admissions.

I completely disagree. It makes significantly more sense for Storm & Ray to work together, than for Mysterio & Venom to work together. Storm and Ray's personalities and morals align very well; the same can't be said for Mysterio and Venom.

Even if they do have similar personalities, this still doesn't ensure they will work together perfectly. While my startegy requiresno direct teamwork from my characters.

Summary

I still believe my team are more than capable of taking this. Not only does a part of your strategy rely on false tourney mechanics, you admitted several times that Storm would't be able to survive our attacks. The fog won't help you very much given how the drones have AoE attacks and Mysterio is controlling them from afar. Storm will be taken out fast leaving Atom to fight by himself against Venom and the drones in which he will eventually go down.

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#27  Edited By geekryan

Post #3 - Conclusion

General Counters

He's not going to engage in combat. He's going to be hidden in a random far away building for the precise reason that he isn't going to fight. And he shouldn't be able to find him anyway.

While Quentin does not engage in combat himself, he also never completely leaves the battlefield to hide in a random, far away building. That is out of character for him. He is also unlikely to go invisible unless he is threatened or gets desperate. Even if he does go invisible though, Atom should be able to see him given how the invisibility would not prohibit Atom from seeing him with X-ray vision.

And your point is? Some drones are able to dodge his webs and some aren't.

You presented a feat for the drones being able to dodge Spider-Man's webs. I presented a few anti-feats. They are likely too slow to dodge any attacks from Storm or Atom.

Yes it was staggered but not damaged by the attack.

Getting staggered by a teenage girl with a mace means they are getting one-shotted by Atom and Storm.

Just shows how much power it takes to bring one down.

No lol. It would likely take much less than the power of an RPG to destroy one.

Even if it could, Storm wouldn't be able to see them through the illusions.

She doesn't need to, when her winds will be tossing the drones around and destroying them, and she can also use AoE lightning bolts.

He was clearly staggered by an arguably weaker missile in one of the feats you posted. And i don't see how the missiles never being used against humans matter here.

Staggered while flying but completely uninjured. These missiles would not harm him at all; at most, they would stagger him as well.

Because that means Mysterio never had the drones use the missiles on human targets, including Spider-Man, so he likely wouldn't do so in this scenario.

Atom should be able to handle this but not Storm.

True, but the drones would have to be able to see and target Storm while she is shrunk and flying and surrounded by fog or strong winds. And again, since Mysterio never had the drones use these lasers on human targets or Spider-Man, he probably wouldn't do so in this scenario either.

Since both Ray and Storm are tiny, the flamethrowers would cover their entire body if they got hit by it. And this is the second time you admit to Storm being very susceptible to our attacks.

The drones would not even be able to perceive them in order to target them with any attacks.

I fully admitted that Storm's durability isn't amazing. She has a few decent blunt force durability showings but that's it.

Once more you admit Storm being highly likely to be taken out.

Once more, I never denied that her durability isn't great lol. BUT, her blunt force durability is still good enough to take a hit or two from Venom. Not that it would ever come to that though, since she will be shrunk, in flight, and surrounded by fog or strong winds.

He can't take this attacks forever.

He doesn't need to. Atom would drop Venom pretty quickly, and Atom can remain untagged via size manipulation and flight.

I agree, but Venom should tank Atom's attacks as well

Maybe some of his strikes, but not his energy projection.

I see you are falling back on Atom's durability to prove that he can beat my team. It's gonna take more that to beat Venom and the drones. At best, he's gonna get thrashed around a lot while going nowhere.

So when I concede Storm's weaker durability, it's bad, but when I continue to argue Atom's superior durability, it's also bad? Lol

You keep talking as if the Atom is going to stand there, full size, and allow Venom and the drones to beat on him. That will not happen. Ray will be shrunk, flying around, using his energy projection and physicals to take out all the drones and Venom while being able to avoid all of their attacks.

Yes, but he's eventually going to get KO'd.

Are you admitting that Venom's durability is weaker than Atom's?

So will your team. It just means they will have to rely on human level speed to dodge bullets, missiles and flamethrowers. Speed also doesn't matter when All of our characters are fighting in close quarters since it's equal.

Doesn't make a difference when the drones will not be able to perceive my team, let alone tag them.

It shows you how much he can survive. And even if your team did have piercing attacks, it would have to be more impressive than this to kill him.

His durability feats are pretty limited to blunt force and piercing attacks. He doesn't have enough showings against electricity or energy projection for him to survive a single attack from either Atom or Storm.

Disagreed. I think the drones will be able to place more illusions in more varied areas.

It makes zero sense for Quentin to have the drones spread out across the city and put up random illusions for two people that may not even be near the vicinity lol.

What makes you think this? It would be the most logical choice as opposed to getting in the middle of the drones weaponry when your team is fighting them.

When did Venom ever climb the tallest building in order to just observe? That is very out of character for him to do. I could maybe accept him scaling a building and hanging off of it for a bit, but he tends to engage in combat very quickly and aggressively.

Yes he was and that's why he will take some drones with him. There's a reason Quentin never fought anyone directly and always hid and let his drones do the work.

But he always stayed NEAR the battle. He never left the battlefield entirely and hid in a random building far away lol. He likely needs to be close to use the drones effectively.

He did this when Spider-Man was about to confront him which makes sense. And he was able to control the drones from a distance. If the event your team somehow finds him, he will become invisible here too.

Quentin was hiding in the tunnel under a bridge where a majority of the battle was taking place. Spider-Man was fighting on and near that bridge most of the time. Quentin was still very close to the battle, just not in plain sight. So no, he won't leave the battlefield to hide far away. As for the invisibility, he only used at the very end when he realized Spider-Man was beating him. He is likely to do the same here, and not go invisible right off the bat.

Basic knowledge does not guarantee they will be able to see past the illusions. Even if they can't affect Atom Storm will still be affected and will probably be killed by the drones leaving only Atom to fend for himself.

No, but it allows them to expect the illusions, anticipate them, and know to ignore them. Only Storm would be affected by them, but the drones won't be near her since she will be channeling her winds.

Once more how does this matter? And you keep falling back on Atoms durability which to me at this point seems to be your trump card.

Lol...A character's durability is very important in a battle. I have conceded that Storm's durability is poor, but Atom's is superior than anyone else here, so obviously I am going to argue it. He has tanked a wide variety of attacks, from blunt force, to bullets, to missiles, etc. Nothing the drones or Venom can do will harm him, and again, HE WILL BE SHRUNK. Your team won't even be able to perceive him or Storm, let alone harm them.

Venom is only going to engage after seeing your team is successfully destroying the drones (After they start using their weapons and stop using the illusions) and this is assuming your team even finds Mysterio.

It doesn't really matter tbh. Leaving him out of the fight at first will make it easier for Storm and Atom to destroy drones, and once Venom joins, he is going down very fast.

You seem to think that we both share the same prep space. As in, our prep happens together. This is not at all the case for tournies in general.

But it is though...If we both have prep on the battlefield, then prep happens near each other but not allowing us to directly engage with the opponent until the prep is over. The satellite is in the atmosphere, not on the battlefield. Therefore, Ray can fly to the satellite, shrink it, and destroy it, as the drones are being summoned down to Earth. It is also very likely that destroying the satellite would cause the drones to deactivate.

As for Storm, she will be summoning the fog as Quentin summons down the drones. The fog can cover a very large area, at least all of Times Square.

It's a good thing i have lots of them.

And all of them will get destroyed by Storm's winds lol.

It's still altering her body. She doesn't know Ray at all. Object aren't enough assurance that it's safe and for al she knows it could be the suit that's helping him shrink.

This counter of yours makes no sense. There is no reason for Storm to distrust Ray and not cooperate if her own survival is at risk. She is a glass cannon, so being shrunk would significantly increase her survivability.

Which is why I said he could demonstrate it on a bird, i.e. something organic. But anyways, I highly doubt he would need to prove it on anything but himself. Storm is a trusting and teamwork-oriented character.

Won't be enough.

If your whole "Quentin self-BFRs himself" strategy made sense, then no, it wouldn't be enough. Luckily, that strategy makes no sense due to how out of character it is, so it won't happen, so Quentin will only hide within the area, so Ray will be able to locate him more easily.

You wouldn't think Tony Stark's technology would be able to controlled from maybe a mile or two away. So far you made more wild assumptions than this.

There is no indication, at least that you have brought up, that they can function from a far distance away. If they could, maybe then Quentin would have hid in a far away building, but that isn't the case.

EDITH is a very different thing than what Ray is familiar with. Just because you know how to work a computer doesn't mean you know how to work a plane. And both Quentin and Peter have past experience with Tony's tech so it shouldn't come as a surprise.

I'm not going to bother pushing this point any further, because it isn't essential at all. However, I firmly stand by my argument that Ray could figure out EDITH rather quickly, given his genius-level intellect, multiple PhDs in science, computers, and engineering, having invented the Atom suit, etc.

And that's the only place it's gonna stay. You are leaving your prep location by doing this. And like before, you are assuming our prep is effecting eachothers space,

So your prep extends to a satellite in the atmosphere, but my prep, which takes place in the same general area of yours (i.e. the battlefield), prohibits my team from flying to the atmosphere? That makes no sense and you're making up rules as an attempt to counter the strategy.

If you're allowed to have your team leave Times Square and set up illusions throughout New York City and make Quentin BFR himself far away, then I can have Atom fly to the satellite through his own flight.

This doesn't explain how he would be able to find the satellite. And it should plenty of time for all the drones to get there considering it's the first thing we so.

It's a large satellite floating in space with nothing else around/near it...

No Caption Provided

Shouldn't be hard to find lol.

I've already debunked this.

You really didn't. If the drones came from the satellite, and they are likely active only due to the satellite, then destroying it would eliminate the biggest threats on your team and make 1/2 of your team useless.

Yes Peter is not as experienced as your characters but they will still (At least Storm) be affected by the illusions.

True, but they will be expecting illusions. Ray can see through them, and no drones will get near Storm when she is channeling her winds.

Once more this is speculation. Something we are both guilty of but i firmly believe it's more severe in your case.

Lol, agree to disagree. Eddie gets his power/strength from the Symbiote. The logical conclusion is that he gets the Symbiote's weaknesses as well. It wouldn't make sense for the Symbiote's weaknesses to be inferior when fully merged with a host.

And will likely be taken out quick according to your admissions.

Only IF the drones/Venom can see her, which they can't, and even then she has flight and fog/winds to protect her.

Even if they do have similar personalities, this still doesn't ensure they will work together perfectly. While my startegy requiresno direct teamwork from my characters.

I'm not claiming perfect teamwork. The only thing they are doing together is strategizing and shrinking, which are both very simple to do.

They have similar personalities, they are both good-natured and heroic, they both have worked on teams, etc. All good reasons why they would work well together.

I still believe my team are more than capable of taking this.

I disagree.

Not only does a part of your strategy rely false on tourney mechanics,

Second time you mention this. Must be your trump card. It isn't against the rules.

you admitted several times that Storm would't be able to survive our attacks.

Why do you keep bringing this up, when I never denied it? Seems like you're really clinging onto this out of desperation...

She wouldn't be able to survive the drones attacks, and she could maybe take a strike or two from Venom. BUT, you are completely ignoring her being shrunk, flying, and in fog/winds.

The fog won't help you very much given how the drones have AoE attacks and Mysterio is controlling them from afar.

So you're saying that the drones are going to wildly fire AoE attacks into fog...? Sure...

Storm will be taken out fast leaving Atom to fight by himself against Venom and the drones in which he will eventually go down.

Nothing the drones or Venom can do will put Atom down. Nothing.

Conclusion

Alright, so since this is my last post, I am going to summarize/recap this debate.

  • You continuously portray your characters as doing out of character things, like having Quentin BFR himself in a building far away, have the drones spread out and set up small illusions all across the city, have the drones randomly fire AoE attacks into fog, have Mysterio go invisible right off the bat, and have Venom climb the tallest building and just observe for awhile. This is the main flaw in your strategy.
  • You completely ignored the main element of my strategy: both Storm and Atom will be shrunk and almost impossible to see. Your only counter to this was that Storm wouldn't go for it, which I have debunked. Neither Venom nor the drones have any feats to suggest they could spot my characters while they are shrunk.
  • You keep mentioning Storm's weaker durability, which I never said was great. It is an ineffective and odd strategy, and isn't very important due to Storm being shrunk, in flight, and in fog/winds to protect her.
  • You heavily rely on Mysterio's illusions, even though my team will be expecting them, Atom won't be fooled by them due to his enhanced vision, and the drones won't be near Storm to use illusions since her winds will destroy them.
  • On that note: the drones can easily be one-shotted (and many at once) by both Storm and Atom. Venom can maybe take a few strikes from Atom but he doesn't have the feats to take his energy projection or Storm's lightning.
  • You also keep claiming that my strategy of having Atom fly from the battlefield to the satellite in order to destroy it is somehow agains the rules. I can't possibly see how it would be agains the rules, and the fact that you are using rules to counter my argument isn't a good idea. If Mysterio can BFR himself to a far away building and the drones can spread across New York City, I don't see why Atom can't fly up into space during the prep. We also both do in fact share the same prep space, and the rules don't say otherwise. Even if we don't share the same prep space, the satellite isn't on the battlefield.
  • Despite your attempt at arguing otherwise, Storm and Ray will work very well together, especially since their lives are at stake.
  • Atom: his durability is good enough to not be harmed by anything the drones or Venom can do. His strength and energy projection is more than enough to take out the drones and Venom without issue. His size manipulation and flight add to his versatility and mobility. Being able to shrink himself and Storm means your team will not be able to see them, let alone tag them.
  • Storm: although she is a glass cannon, being shrunk and having flight increase her survivability. Having fog on the ground level and channeling strong winds above the fog provides her with cover and offence. She can also fire lightning bolts while channeling the winds. She will be doing all of this while shrunk.
  • Mysterio: His drones, while numerous, can easily be dealt with by Storm and Atom. The drones will be unable to see Storm and Atom too, and therefore be unable to harm them. As for Mysterio himself, well, he won't be hiding in a far away building since this is out of character for him. He will likely find a nearby building to hide in, while still being able to monitor the battlefield. Through basic knowledge, my team will be expecting this and Atom can use his x-ray vision to locate Quentin and take him out.
  • Venom: His damage output is too weak to harm Atom, and he can be taken down very quickly by Storm or Atom's energy projection, since he lacks the resistance feats against those types of attacks. Furthermore, he will also be unable to spot my shrunken team and will therefore be very useless.

I don't see how your team can possibly win a majority here. I addressed and countered everything you brought up, while you ignored or poorly countered most of my arguments. Objectively speaking, your team doesn't stand a chance at winning this.

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@geekryan, @shade545

Great work both of you! Is it open for voting now? Also, are other participants of the tourney allowed to vote?

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@geekryan, @shade545

Great work both of you! Is it open for voting now? Also, are other participants of the tourney allowed to vote?

Not yet, Shade needs to do his last post!

And I don't see why not :)

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Shade545

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#31  Edited By Shade545

Counters

While Quentin does not engage in combat himself, he also never completely leaves the battlefield to hide in a random, far away building. That is out of character for him. He is also unlikely to go invisible unless he is threatened or gets desperate. Even if he does go invisible though, Atom should be able to see him given how the invisibility would not prohibit Atom from seeing him with X-ray vision.

In that moment, Quentin had no reason to be far away considering he thought Spider-Man wouldn't be able to find him. He wasn't even planning to Peter to confront him save for a few backup drones. And since he went invisible in that occasion, i can't see why he would't feel threatened here. Mysterio always lets his drones do the fighting, And once more, he's gonna be far away in a random floor in a random building. A few meters isn't going to help Ray find him.

You presented a feat for the drones being able to dodge Spider-Man's webs. I presented a few anti-feats. They are likely too slow to dodge any attacks from Storm or Atom.

I was showing you that they are capable of dodging Spider-Man's webs. I wasn't trying to prove anything else. Even if they couldn't dodge Storm's attacks, that can at least dodge Ray's. Speaking of which, energy attacks have had much less of an effect on regular humans while shrunk as compared to normal size where he sends them flying. I honestly can't see the energy blast putting a drone down unless he becomes normal size in which he becomes a larger target. While Atom is shrunk, Storm is most likely gonna be the only one who can destroy the drones.

Getting staggered by a teenage girl with a mace means they are getting one-shotted by Atom and Storm.

The drone wasn't even damaged. Storm will be able to destroy one but Ray will not while shrunk considering the only feat you provided of his energy blast while shrunk was only pushing people back one or two feet.

No lol. It would likely take much less than the power of an RPG to destroy one.

Showing say otherwise.

She doesn't need to, when her winds will be tossing the drones around and destroying them, and she can also use AoE lightning bolts.

The drones are too durable to be destroyed by winds alone. Infact, storms lighting bolts are pretty much the only way your team is going to be able to take the drones out the majority of the match.

Staggered while flying but completely uninjured. These missiles would not harm him at all; at most, they would stagger him as well.

Because that means Mysterio never had the drones use the missiles on human targets, including Spider-Man, so he likely wouldn't do so in this scenario.

The explosion produced by that missile was much smaller than the ones from the drones. Ii can see these harming him.

He really had no reason too. He had bullets which he thought would have been enough to hurt him. Besides, like i said, the drones will use more extreme weaponry the longer your team survives.

True, but the drones would have to be able to see and target Storm while she is shrunk and flying and surrounded by fog or strong winds. And again, since Mysterio never had the drones use these lasers on human targets or Spider-Man, he probably wouldn't do so in this scenario either.

The drones were able to operate perfectly through the illusions they were producing as well as water, so imo they should be able to see through the fog.

The drones would not even be able to perceive them in order to target them with any attacks.

I fully admitted that Storm's durability isn't amazing. She has a few decent blunt force durability showings but that's it.

The drones have never failed to lock unto a target. And gives how advanced Stark's technology is i have my doubts they will not be able to target them.

Once more, I never denied that her durability isn't great lol. BUT, her blunt force durability is still good enough to take a hit or two from Venom. Not that it would ever come to that though, since she will be shrunk, in flight, and surrounded by fog or strong winds.

The illusions from the many drones will provide distraction while Venom goes in for the kill, Or the drones.

He doesn't need to. Atom would drop Venom pretty quickly, and Atom can remain untagged via size manipulation and flight.

I disagree. I believe you are overhyping Atoms damage output. His energy blast while normal size have only pushed humans back about 20 feet and his feats of throwing around humans are less impressive than Venoms. And his tech really shouldn't be able to foil the illusions. They are made for seeing though objects and not holograms.

Maybe some of his strikes, but not his energy projection.

His energy attacks aren't impressive.

So when I concede Storm's weaker durability, it's bad, but when I continue to argue Atom's superior durability, it's also bad? Lol

You keep talking as if the Atom is going to stand there, full size, and allow Venom and the drones to beat on him. That will not happen. Ray will be shrunk, flying around, using his energy projection and physicals to take out all the drones and Venom while being able to avoid all of their attacks.

Both of there durability isn't going to last them long.

No it won' and i never thought your characters would do such thing. First, you will have to get past the illusions, while Venom attacks them. Second, you think that all of Venom's and drones attacks are going to miss, Venoms tentacles were shown to be very quick and so were the drones weaponry.

Are you admitting that Venom's durability is weaker than Atom's?

No. I'm saying Atom will get KO'd.

Doesn't make a difference when the drones will not be able to perceive my team, let alone tag them.

The drones locked unto to everything so once more this is speculation. Speculation that has more of a chance of not being true.

His durability feats are pretty limited to blunt force and piercing attacks. He doesn't have enough showings against electricity or energy projection for him to survive a single attack from either Atom or Storm.

So having many sections of your body impaled with symbiote spikes and a large piece of metal isn't impressive? Atom's energy projection is rather weak and Storm even if she manages to get one or two bolts on Venom will be hard pressed to do so while Ray remains not as useful as her while shrunk.

It makes zero sense for Quentin to have the drones spread out across the city and put up random illusions for two people that may not even be near the vicinity lol.

He was placing massive illusions throughout a large portion of the city lol. Why would he not do it here? He has enough drones to do so.

When did Venom ever climb the tallest building in order to just observe? That is very out of character for him to do. I could maybe accept him scaling a building and hanging off of it for a bit, but he tends to engage in combat very quickly and aggressively.

Even if he did do this it would be more troublesome to you than if he didn't considering you said "Having Venom not engage at the beginning actually works in favour for my team as they can deal with the drones, then Quentin, then Venom, in that order.".

But he always stayed NEAR the battle. He never left the battlefield entirely and hid in a random building far away lol. He likely needs to be close to use the drones effectively.

I never said he would leave the battlefield. He never had any idea that he was going to fight Spider-Man and in that instance combat wasn't his main objective. He was tying to impressive the public. Here however, he knows he's going to fight.

Quentin was hiding in the tunnel under a bridge where a majority of the battle was taking place. Spider-Man was fighting on and near that bridge most of the time. Quentin was still very close to the battle, just not in plain sight. So no, he won't leave the battlefield to hide far away. As for the invisibility, he only used at the very end when he realized Spider-Man was beating him. He is likely to do the same here, and not go invisible right off the bat.

Already countered.

No, but it allows them to expect the illusions, anticipate them, and know to ignore them. Only Storm would be affected by them, but the drones won't be near her since she will be channeling her winds.

At the beginning of the fight? No. And the drones should still be able to see through the fog considering they worked individually through commands and not vision. Of course Mysterio could choose to look through one of he chose but they should be able to see through it on their own.

Lol...A character's durability is very important in a battle. I have conceded that Storm's durability is poor, but Atom's is superior than anyone else here, so obviously I am going to argue it. He has tanked a wide variety of attacks, from blunt force, to bullets, to missiles, etc. Nothing the drones or Venom can do will harm him, and again, HE WILL BE SHRUNK. Your team won't even be able to perceive him or Storm, let alone harm them.

My team should be fast enough to react to them and drones should certainly be able to tag them.

It doesn't really matter tbh. Leaving him out of the fight at first will make it easier for Storm and Atom to destroy drones, and once Venom joins, he is going down very fast.

Like you said before, both scenario's will be better for me than for you. And what you believe to be the more likely outcome disadvantages you more according to your past statements.

But it is though...If we both have prep on the battlefield, then prep happens near each other but not allowing us to directly engage with the opponent until the prep is over. The satellite is in the atmosphere, not on the battlefield. Therefore, Ray can fly to the satellite, shrink it, and destroy it, as the drones are being summoned down to Earth. It is also very likely that destroying the satellite would cause the drones to deactivate.

As for Storm, she will be summoning the fog as Quentin summons down the drones. The fog can cover a very large area, at least all of Times Square.

The general rule is that both teams's prep happens independent from eachother. Even here, you admit that the satellite is not apart of the battlefield and still claim you can make it there despite not choosing it as your other prep area of choice which is outright breaking the rules.

This counter of yours makes no sense. There is no reason for Storm to distrust Ray and not cooperate if her own survival is at risk. She is a glass cannon, so being shrunk would significantly increase her survivability.

Which is why I said he could demonstrate it on a bird, i.e. something organic. But anyways, I highly doubt he would need to prove it on anything but himself. Storm is a trusting and teamwork-oriented character.

Yet despite the threat of death my team is not going to listen to eachother due to a difference in personality and not requiring tech to affect the body.

If your whole "Quentin self-BFRs himself" strategy made sense, then no, it wouldn't be enough. Luckily, that strategy makes no sense due to how out of character it is, so it won't happen, so Quentin will only hide within the area, so Ray will be able to locate him more easily.

He's not going to BFR himself as that would be against the rules. i said "He's going to travel as far as possible without it being considered self BFR." He's not leaving the battlefield which is times square and due to the "impress the public and not for combat" reason mentioned earlier he would do this.

I'm not going to bother pushing this point any further, because it isn't essential at all. However, I firmly stand by my argument that Ray could figure out EDITH rather quickly, given his genius-level intellect, multiple PhDs in science, computers, and engineering, having invented the Atom suit, etc.

Coming back to this point, i don't even think basic knowledge should grant you the slightest understanding of what EDITH is. The tech is different and he shouldn't be able to figure it out.

So your prep extends to a satellite in the atmosphere, but my prep, which takes place in the same general area of yours (i.e. the battlefield), prohibits my team from flying to the atmosphere? That makes no sense and you're making up rules as an attempt to counter the strategy.

If you're allowed to have your team leave Times Square and set up illusions throughout New York City and make Quentin BFR himself far away, then I can have Atom fly to the satellite through his own flight.

That's because it is part of Mysterio's character to have the satellite. and even then, i don't have to leave the battlefield to execute my strategy unlike yours. I have not once broken the rules and i can't say the same for you.

It's a large satellite floating in space with nothing else around/near it...

Even if were allowed to travel to space there is no telling how much prep time it would take up. Your prep is requires rule breaking and a bunch of chance while mine is simple and concise.

True, but they will be expecting illusions. Ray can see through them, and no drones will get near Storm when she is channeling her winds.

Not really due to to reasons previously stated.

Lol, agree to disagree. Eddie gets his power/strength from the Symbiote. The logical conclusion is that he gets the Symbiote's weaknesses as well. It wouldn't make sense for the Symbiote's weaknesses to be inferior when fully merged with a host.

If Eddie was was more powerful with the symbiote inside of him as opposed to covering him then he would have did this the entire movie.

Only IF the drones/Venom can see her, which they can't, and even then she has flight and fog/winds to protect her.

I believe at least the drones can.

I disagree.

Me too.

Second time you mention this. Must be your trump card. It isn't against the rules.

Yet when you bring up stuff multiple times it isn't your trump card.

Why do you keep bringing this up, when I never denied it? Seems like you're really clinging onto this out of desperation...

She wouldn't be able to survive the drones attacks, and she could maybe take a strike or two from Venom. BUT, you are completely ignoring her being shrunk, flying, and in fog/winds.

I'm bringing it up because you did

I disagree due to earlier reasons.

So you're saying that the drones are going to wildly fire AoE attacks into fog...? Sure...

With Venom not near and your team foiling the illusions yeah.

Nothing the drones or Venom can do will put Atom down. Nothing.

This really is your trump card. Venom will be able to hurt him and if not they will definitely stalemate due to Venom's better damage output. He was staggered by a less powerful missile than the drones too.

Summary

In the end, i still believe my team has better damage output than Ray and more versatility than Storm. Your prep seems to be breaking the rules while i kept mine simple and well within the rules. You also seemed to rely on Atom's durability more than anything else. And once that fails i am convinced your team is as good as dead. Storm will be going down fast based on what you presented leaving Atom to fight alone. The fog and winds won't due much to the drones which will be spread out well across the battlefield and the illusions alone should be able to help us gain victory.

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#34 death4bunnies  Online
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@geekryan: This was fun! I wish you luck. Now i'll be able to focus on other CaVs with this done.

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Great debate guys. Was good following this.

I'd place both teams pretty close based on how this went. If I had to choose one, I'd vote @geekryan. Based on the debate, I felt Ryan's argument about Atom being able to see through illusions due to enhanced/X-Ray vision as the main decider of this battle.

I liked @shade545's prep more to be honest. I mean its pretty simple and straightforward compared to creative way that Ryan did, also it will be effective against a lot of foes.

Also, felt Shade's point about Beck BFR himself to be fine.

Once again, good job guys.

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#39  Edited By ProfessorRespect  Online

I'll go for @shade545 as the determinate winner here. For one, his prep was actually feasible, as compared to geek's prep, which relied on the two characters introducing themselves to each other, their opponents, the deep fog, the shrinking, and then Atom destroying a satellite: all in 20 minutes, which is a VERY sharp timeline to get everything done before the battle actually starts. It doesn't seem likely that this'll be the case. Of course, there is the question of how much basic knowledge can give you (would it really give the exact location of a random satellite when there are hundreds of them all over the world? idk) and Shade's prep plan was a bit more likely to succeed, considering it was just dispersing out the drones (which usually happens) and Beck getting away from the action and directing from the background (which, again, was always in character for him, no idea why that was being argued against).

In terms of prep also, I don't have the upmost confidence that Storm would let some random dude who she knows nothing about shrink her down to the size of a ant. Maybe I'd buy it with a teamwork perk, but as Shade said, it didn't make sense that'd she'd go along with it, and even then, she doesn't have any experience working at such a small size: regardless of who you are, you aren't exactly going to take something like that naturally well for the first time, lol. Geeks's criticism of Shade's drone prep wasn't very effective, I found. The whole "it'll take ages for the drones to get to the battlefield tho" argument doesn't work because the feats shown for how quick they get to Earth showed it getting to a specific location from the satellite in about 30 or so seconds, give or take. That's not really a issue here.

Anyway, the general arguments on both sides were quite solid, through Geek's conceded that Storm was the only person here who could really damage the drones, and also conceded that her durability (or more so her lack of it) meant that she could be very easily be taken out by any drone attack, even if shrunken. Debris is also a problem at that size: small pieces of metal or whatnot carried by the strong winds that would be nothing at regular size became big problems at ant size. Considering Atom has a armoured suit, he doesn't suffer from this problem. Storm, on the other hand, has no way to defend herself at that size.

Through I agreed with Geek that they wouldn't be effected much by the illusions (due to Atom's enhanced senses and the basic knowledge that at least informs them about the existence of such illusions) I wasn't so sure about the team being capable of clearing through the drones, especially considering that, with the prospect of the satellite still being active due to the prep plan being ineffective, the threat of drones would continue, and Storm again wasn't going to take any damage well.

All in all, I think Shade did better overall in terms of arguing his case for why his team won, with a more effective prep plan and a more logical thought process in terms of what his team could do (they wouldn't work together, but they wouldn't fight each other, either). Geek's team was solid by principle, but a wonky prep plan and a lack of any real way out of the situation (or a effective back up plan in the very real case that Storm gets taken out and they lose both the winds and the firepower at the same time) meant that they didn't quite hit the mark here.

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Bump for votes.

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Bump

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After reading through this I think I'm going to go ahead and vote for @shade545. His prep was much more feasible as opposed to geekryan's relying a lot on Storm allowing someone she just met to shrink her and her being able to operate effectively while shrunk despite having no experience with it. While Atom's durability was good fallback I don't think Atom has enough power to take down Venom along with Mysterio's drones. And since Storm is equalized to Mysterio's average human speed she won't be able to deal with the drones for very long.

Ultimitely while it was close and Geek made a good argument, I think Shade just barely edged him out.

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geekryan

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After reading through this I think I'm going to go ahead and vote for @shade545. His prep was much more feasible as opposed to geekryan's relying a lot on Storm allowing someone she just met to shrink her and her being able to operate effectively while shrunk despite having no experience with it. While Atom's durability was good fallback I don't think Atom has enough power to take down Venom along with Mysterio's drones. And since Storm is equalized to Mysterio's average human speed she won't be able to deal with the drones for very long.

Ultimitely while it was close and Geek made a good argument, I think Shade just barely edged him out.

Thanks for voting. But are you an alt?

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#50 death4bunnies  Online

@geekryan: @shade545:
voting ends 7 days from opening of votes..so 2 more days...I’ll make a tag list.