(Open For Voting )CAV: Sion Zail(Mass) vs Jin Mu Won(InfiniteMass)

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InfiniteMass

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#1  Edited By InfiniteMass

CAV: Mass VS InfiniteMass

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Sion Zail Vs Jin Mu Won

Battle Rules:

  • Speed is equalized
  • Win by Death or Knockout
  • In Character but must fight
  • Both at their best

CAV RULES

3. Challenge a Viner - Rules and Guidelines

A CaV (Challenge a Viner) is a structured debate wherein two or more users debate in a public thread. A CaV may be a part of a tournament. Once the debate is complete, voting becomes open to the public, and other users may vote on who they believe made the best argument. Here are some rules on CaVs:

  • CaV creation rules:
    • CaVs are not bound by the Battle Forum (1.) Rules for Battle Thread Creation or (4.) BANNED Battles. Whether or not the battle is fair is determined by the users who agreed to the battle in the first place. Likewise, participants may use characters that would otherwise be banned (such as Dragonball characters) if both agree.
    • Do not make a battle without permission as a means of “calling somebody out.” The conditions of the battle should be discussed privately between the debaters (or tourney host). Once the conditions of the battle are agreed upon, one of the participants will create the battle. Once made, the conditions may not be changed without permission from the debaters or the tourney host
  • Voting rules:
    • Voters must vote PURELY on the basis of merit – who made the best argument? Do not vote based on which character(s) you think would/should win in a battle
    • Do not give your opinion regarding the battle itself, and do not make an argument of your own.
    • Do not comment on the arguments being made until voting is open.
    • The CaV creators may choose to exclude users from voting based on post count (ex.: “People must have at least 500 posts to vote”). They may not exclude specific users from voting.
    • You get one vote. You may not vote using alt accounts, and you may not vote for yourself.

CaVs are a serious debate platform, so please treat those battles with a degree of dignity.

If you'd like to be tagged for a vote, please do so.

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InfiniteMass

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@mass

How does this look?

And do you want to go first?

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@infinitemass: looks great, thanks for setting it up. You can go first

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#4  Edited By InfiniteMass

@mass: Lol, I'll try to get it up this week, might take a bit because of holidays!

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InfiniteMass

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@rikix in case you are interested

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The year is CC430 of the Space Calendar. Interstellar travel is now possible and humans are traveling between stars, pioneering new worlds. This should have been the Age of Enlightenment where humans reaches the peak of its civilization, but alas; it's perhaps the worse age for humanity and possibly its last. During their travel between the stars, humanity encountered alien life, monsters known as AGs. Entire planets are being lost to the Queen Monster's erosion becoming new monster nests for the endless war.

Through humanity's unending will to survive came the Knight Order. A militarized group of extraordinary individuals, highly trained to destroy the AGs. The Knight Order is broken into a hierarchy of authority and overall power.

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Knight Trainee's start their training and education at very young age, often before their even reach 10 years of age. They spend years training, practicing and honing their skills before they can officially be called a Knight. Only the elite of the elite knights can be called a Master Knight. Their skill and battle prowess give them the abilities to combat higher tier AGs. Should a knight ever manage to kill a Type-Zero AG, they are immediately upgraded to a Zero Breaker. The strength of a Zero Breaker is nothing to laugh at with a clash between two of them causing a crater a whopping 17km deep!

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Standing at the pinnacle of power and skill in the Knight Order is the Top Sword. The strongest knight and the spearhead against the AGs.

Similar to the Knight Order, AGs also have a hierarchy. All beasts are graded through a "Class" degree then categorized as either a "High Rank Beast" or "Low Rank Beast" depending on its class level. Class directly corresponds to the raw potential power of a Beast or its abilities. High Rank Beasts are those that have a high class and thus have potential to develop its innate talents further through battle experience and skill. They have command over the lesser ranked beasts. Low Rank Beasts are those that have low classes and are usually treated as grunts or slaves. They only possess basic functions and are thus used for delegated missions or massed wave charges.

At the top of the AGs hierarchy is the Queen. They control the nests and organize the AG armies but they are far from the strongest AGs. The strongest AGs are classified as Type-Zeroes or EX Type-Zero, the EX being the absolute strongest AGs. A single Type-Zero AG is capable of killing 21 Knights and injuring many more.

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Bluering was the first AG seen in series. It cost humanity 5,000 soldiers, 8 elite ships, the 7th and 16th ground divisions, 21 Knights and wounded a Master Knight before it was finally killed.

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While the Type Zeros and Ex Type Zeroes are extremely dangerous, even a lower ranked Type-5 AG can decimate an army. It takes 30 space ships and at least 7 elite trained Raven units (anti-knight faction of highly trained soldiers) just to take down a single Type-5 AG.

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"You're only a doll nobody will embrace or love" - Zail Committee to Princess Sion

Sion's life should have been celebrated and revered, but life isn't always fair. She was born a homunculus from Queen Eve Zail, created through the blood of Adam, the first Beast. A princess by birthright, Sion's blood was considered a sin, a wolf in sheep's clothing that could never be trusted. As a child she was locked in captivity and treated as nothing more than a doll. It wasn't until she accidentally picked up a sword that the Zail's realized she was no mere doll. No, she was nothing so simple, she would become the Swordsaint!

With the blood of Adam coursing through her veins, Sion developed the greatest sword talent the world had ever seen. In the beginning, Sion's swordplay was just something her caretaker, the Knight Rhea Zail thought would help distract her from the constant confinement. Only 4 weeks after she touched her first sword, Sion goes to Clint Zail to discuss swordfighting theory in order to win against Rhea. Clint is widely accepted as the most knowledgeable Knight in theory. Mockingly, Clint takes 10 seconds to tell Sion the theory behind Rhea's swordplay. Using that theory, Sion goes on to best Rhea Zail for the first time. From that point forward, Rhea could never beat Sion

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Sion's masterful swordsfighting only explodes from there. Rhea goes on to show Sion a hundred different sword forms, ending with the lost "Eighth Hermit" form used by the late King Levan. Only the basic form of the Eighth Hermit remains so its become a lost incomplete form used only for show. To Rhea's shock, Sion memorized all 100 sword forms after seeing them only once. Perhaps even more shocking, Sion is able to understand and complete the theory behind the Eighth Hermit!

While watching Clint practice his quick draw, Sion correctly identifies the three times the quick draw accelerates. After seeing the quick draw only once, Sion improves it with a single slash, making it even faster than Clint's! What took a master knight like Clint 15 years to develop, Sion masters in a single glance.

Later when Sion is only 8 years old, Clint asks her to develop the Ultimate Holy Sword Form. She quickly develops the manual for the ultimate form and readily gives it to Clint as a child would share a drawing with their parent. Her perfect understanding of the theories and principles are applied like she has experienced them in battle tens of thousands of times. This fast understanding and perfect simulation are things that should only be possible tens of thousands of failures and experience, yet Sion is able to obtain them so easily. A monster of understanding.

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Sion's first real fight is against the strongest member and best candidate for becoming the next family head of the Zail Family, the Master Knight Grant Zail. After Grant threatens Rhea while she is protecting Sion from Grant's verbal harassment, Sion challenges him to a battle. Simply the aura of Grant's power is enough to shake the surrounding city, uplift cars and crumble buildings. Grant immediately tries to kill Sion, but to his surprise, Sion utterly stomps him with one move. Ending the fight, Sion snaps Grant's arm and knocks him out.

The magnitude of Sion's skill isn't truly understood until her first encounter with a Type Zero AG. The Land Slayer Type Zero was devastating the battlefield, massacring the defending army and breaking through their final line of defense. High above the clouds, Sion jumps from her aircraft to battle Land Slayer. Within 5 seconds of landing and with only 2 hits, Sion decapitates Land Slayer. At the mere age of 16, Sion became a Zero Breaker.

From that point on, Sion's life became one of constant wars, battling the AG invasion on world after world, after world.

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Through these countless wars, Sion is crowned the Swordsaint and would eventually become the Knight's Top Sword...

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After her victory in the Liones War, Sion is crowned the Lionheart and given the Title Top Sword. In the Knight's hierarchy, only the strongest and most skilled individual is given the title of Top Sword. At a mere 18 years of age, Sion becomes the strongest knight of her age.

As the Top Sword, Sion's strength and skill are unparalleled. Having already become a Zero Breaker at the age of 16, she is called to defend the planet of Tobal from an AG invasion. This particular invasion being one of the strongest is history, led by not one but two Type Zeroes. As the rest of the Knights deal with the weaker Type Zero, Sion stands alone against Hyperion, a monster capable of wiping out entire armies and starship fleets.

After a long battle, Sion defeats Hyperion and casts its corpse into a volcano.

(Important Note: Sion first battles Hyperion in year CC400. She defeats it but the damage to the planet from the AG invasion is so severe that the Knights and people of the world blame Sion. She takes their blame and hatred, volunteering to be cryogenically frozen as a Cold Hero to allow the rest of her team to live their lives. The Cold Heroes are left sleeping for 30 years until the events of Knight Run Season One in CC430. Sion is unfrozen in CC430 and tasked with battling the AGs on Tobal again following a new invasion. After defeating the invading force, the planet is devastated, again blaming Sion. She goes into hiding as a disabled school girl but is eventually forced to fight again. She is used as a political pawn for the advancement of President Robert Nelson who unwittingly revives Hyperion. Sion is forced once again to battle Hyperion and save the planet)

Despite being powerful and skilled enough to kill nearly any other Knight, what made Hyperion a true monster was its weapon, The Cursed Branch Mystetlein.

The Cursed Branch Mysteltein is a fragment of the old World Tree brought to this dimension by Bishop. Its power is beyond anything humanity had ever seen. Ranked as a S-Grade pollutant, anything the Mysteltein touches is eroded and destroyed. No new life can grow where the Mysteltein touched.

This is a weapon so powerful it erodes the very space around it and cuts physical stats by 80%!

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Its not so simply a spear either. The Mysteltein can duplicate itself dozens to hundreds of times with each spear remotely controlled by Hyperion.

Bare in mind that each duplicate, can resonate for an area of effect that wipes out everything in a city wide area. Thrown from orbit, duplicates of Mysteltein can wipe out multiple cities at once. A single resonance pulse is so powerful that even molecular fusion and a ships barrier aren't enough to stop the destruction. Only those with bodies as strong as a Knight's (the weakest Knights are comparable to city busters).

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But even a Knight's body and shielded ship can't withstand the combined force multiple resonance pulses at once.

A direct hit by Mysteltein or one of the duplicates is much worse though. Even a nano machine repairing defensive coat can't repair itself from a direct hit. (Note: Mysteltein didn't just pierce through the nano coat's defenses, it also pierced through the Armor Sword's closed space which can resist the Mysteltein's remote space erosion).

In her first battle with Hyperion in CC400, when Sion was at her best, she manages to defeat the Type Zero without being hit even once.

In CC430 After being unfrozen and used as a political pawn by Robert Nelson, and not willing to defend herself, Sion is left crippled, a living rotting corpse.

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Upon learning of Hyperion's revival, Sion raises her decaying body and points her sword to the monster once again. So when you see the upcoming scans of Sion battling Hyperion, please remember that this IS NOT SION AT HER BEST. This is literally a dying and decomposing version of Sion with severely weakened stats. Despite her near death state, her skill remains and as you'll, she is still every bit the Top Sword.

As the AGs continue to invade Tobel, there forces bare down on President Nelson. As death seems inevitable, Robert closes his eyes only open them seeing Sion to his rescue. With her ruined body, Sion sets out protect the unworthy citizens of Tobel again. As dozens of Type 5 AGs rush Sion, their blades mere inches from cutting her to pieces, Sion effortlessly decapitates them all. Their heads and corpses rain down as Sion continues to stand in front of Robert, holding his glaze.

Making her way to Hyperion, Sion is faced to fight two Type Zero replicates of Hyperion. With the AGs blades virtually touching her neck, Sion uses The Ebony Cut form to cut both Type Zeroes.

Realizing the danger Sion still poses, Hyperion (while piloting its Giant Robot Form) sends hundreds of Type 5 AGs to rush her. Sion blasts through them, cutting the beasts to pieces, left and right, up and down as they attempt to overwhelm her. Sion unleashes form after form switching between sword styles to counter the endless stream of AGs. Even the high-powered commander class AG is cut to pieces in an instant.

Hyperion attacks Sion with the giant Mystetlein replicate spears. As Sion faces the giant form, she pulls out form after form after form shredding Hyperion's giant.

As a testament to her power, seeing Sion destroy the giant Mystetlein replicate spears is actually a lot more impressive then it looks. Each one of those spears is capable of wiping out an entire city at the molecular level.

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Sion goes on to battle with Hyperion, dodging and countering dozens of Mysteltein instant kill attacks and dozens Type-5 AGs all while only performing at 20% of her usual strength. Their battle is up and down, destroying everything around them. Whenever one seemingly lands the winning blow the other counters. Just when Sion thinks she's won, Hyperion unleashes more power, becomes faster, stronger and matches her skill. As Hyperion releases the true form of Mysteltein, the environment begins to erode and Sion's defenses start to fail. Sion is forced to use the full power of the Armored Blade to match Hyperion's rage.

Hyperion matches Sion's skill strike for strike until finally the Top Sword scores the finishing blow:

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AB blades are the corner stone of the Knight's offensive power. Without these amazing weapons, all their skill and power would be for knot. You see, AGs are surrounding by a powerful barrier at all times. Conventional weapons are completely useless against these barriers. The barrier of a Type-Zero is particularly strong. Hyperion's barrier was able to tank the consecutive bombardment of dozens of nuclear weapons.

It wasn't until the Mother Knight discovered the AB element that Humanity finally gained the ultimate weapon against the AGs. The AB element literally means, Anti-Barrier. The material completely negates the AG's barrier, allowing the Knights to hand against the High Ranked Beasts.

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The Armored Blade is Sion's current weapon. Originally she used Sword No. 5 which is stronger than the Armored Blade but there aren't any actual feats showing Sion using Sword No. 5 so for this battle she'll only use the Armored Blade. The blade itself is larger than Sion but in her hands it becomes as nimble as Rapier and as powerful as a Claymore. The Armored Blade as its name suggests, enhances the defenses of the user. The blade comes with its own barrier that creates a Closed Space around Sion. This barrier is strong enough to offset the space erosion and molecular decomposition of Mysteltein.

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The Armored Blade another special trait. It can be used to create a suit of armor to surround and protect Sion called the Full Armor Blade. This armor boosts Sion's offensive and defensive capacities that she can contend with a full power Hyperion!

[The Battle]

Jin Mu-Won is one heck of an opponent and I'm glad that Sion gets to face off against such a skilled foe. I don't want to assume anything about his capacities since this is only the first post but I think with Sion's skill and skill copying, she'll be able to handle anything Jin throws her way. This battle won't be decided with stats, but rather with skill and Sion has that to spare.

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@infinitemass: I went ahead and posted my opener since it was 95% copy and paste from my previous CAV

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@mass: Awesome, I should have mine up this week

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Taep

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Jin Mu-Won is the son of the previous Leader of the Northern Sect - Jin Kwan-Ho and current Leader of the Northern Sect. After his father was accused of being a traitor by his former Uncles and the Central Alliance, Jin was subject to exile while his father committed suicide in front of his own eyes. While Jin spent years in exile in the now abandoned Northern Sect, the Central Alliance sent multiple groups of warriors to observe him so he would have no chance to learn martial arts.

Because of the Northern Sects reputation for their amazing Martial Arts, the people who routinely came to monitor also had ulterior motives, mostly wishing to find powerful martial arts used by Jin’s dad. This caused them to Tourture and hurt Jin on Multiple occasions, believing he was hiding the true martial arts. Despite this, Jin continued to remain silent about the truth of his Sects Martial arts that is only passed down to the heir, and he silently continued to train with the most miniscule movements in order to avoid detection.

The Strong Rule

In the world of the Northern Blade, class, political power, and wealth are all decided by strength and ability. Only those with superb Martial arts are able to live as kings, so everyone desperately tries to improve themselves to the best of their abilities, constantly sharing their techniques and hidden strength with their heirs in order to continue growing tier respective sects. Thus exists a world where fighting and Martial arts are the most common thing a person can engage in, so in order to rise to the top, your martial arts cannot just be 1 of the best, it needs to be the best. It’s like being in a world where Boxing determines your status and life, most people would fall low on the totem pole, but everyone would continue to strive and become better boxers to improve their own lives.

This is an important consideration because as far as skill goes, nothing speaks more volumes than climbing in a society based on skill with nothing but skill on your side. As noted, Jin has never had a formal teacher, and he never learned martial arts from his father. As a matter of fact, while he was a child he was instead focused on studying the ancient language that was used in the secret Martial arts of the Northern sect. After the death of his father, he spent all of his time on top of the highest building reading the secret manual that was engraved in the Northern Sect itself. Without any guidance or help, he mastered the Northern Secs Martial arts and became one of the most feared martial artists in a short time.

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Northern Sect Martial Arts

In the world of the Northern Blade, no martial art is regarded as good, it contains multiple facets that give the user the edge in multiple forms of combat. For example, Uncle Jo, one of the former pillars of the Northern Sect, spent his entire life building and creating the best hand 2 hand martial arts. He was already considered the best in fist martial arts, but there was one issue that always got in his way, and that was the leader of the Northern Sect. Although the Northern sect leader is seen using a blade as his main weapon, Uncle Jo mentions multiple times that he could never beat him in an exchange of fists. That no matter how hard he trained, he could not defeat someone who doesn’t even specialize in fist fighting. That’s like a MMA fighter beating the world's best boxer, and is a testament to his enormous amount of skill. Jo loathed him for this very reason, because no matter what he did, he could never surpass him. But this wasn’t just the case with Jo, it was the case for all 4 pillars, none of them could ever surpass him, even in their own respected martial arts specialties.

When the Northern sect was abolished and Jin was exiled, every member took all the martial arts and treasures they could get their hands on, no leaving him a single thing to his name. Jin had no martial arts he could practice, and the Central Alliance kept a constant eye on him to make sure he could never learn, because they were scared he would become as strong or even stronger than his father. Yet he still managed to learn in secret, with zero help or direction. As a matter of fact, he is so skilled he is capable of seeing other’s martial arts and helping enlighten them just at a glance.

Another attribute about the martial arts is how it is capable of stopping and slowing regeneration. We see this a couple times, first with the person who has an un killable body, his body comes back from being beaten to a pulp. Another time is from one of the people who faced Jin and was cut by his sword, who states that the cuts left by Jin would not heal even after a considerable amount of time had passed.

It should also be noted that Jins Martial arts is seen as unpredictable and as if he is a shadow. Even Master Martial artist have a tough time keeping up with his movements

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Snow Flower

Snow Flower is the Sword Jin uses and was created by himself while he was in seclusion and mastering his martial arts. Jin spent a lot of time trying to create and tame this sword, as the sword and the material used to make the sword has a mind of its own. The material itself comes from a meteorite that crash landed in a village, the villagers worshipped the rock as some sort of holy symbol. But after the Village was massacred, the rock absorbed the malice and sorrow from the villagers who once worshiped it. This gave Jin and his sword a very special connection, and also some very unique abilities.

As a bewitched blade, it possesses and can temporarily restrain whoever touches it or get’s stabbed by it. It can also cause others to hallucinate without even touching the sword, as it was shown to have a strong effect on people, pulling them closer to the sword itself. It also helps Jin stay out of trouble, as it can help keep him awake when he passes out or even get his body to move when he loses consciousness.

The blade's best feat is restraining Jo during his fight with Jin, as Jin used the sword to temporarily stop Jo’s movements and use the chance to deliver some blows. This didn’t stop him for too long, as after some time he was able to fight through it, but Jin simply pulled out the sword and stabbed him again creating the same effect. So clearly it loses its effect after some time, but it is capable of being repeated multiple times.

Feats for Jin

Let's get into his power levels, because he doesn’t just have skill on his side, this man is a legitimate powerhouse with impressive feats to back up his claims to fame.

Jin destroys a mountain in 1 strike

Jin and Jo smash through multiple mountains with Jin not even having a single scratch

Jo destroys a mountain range and Jin tanks it straight on with minimal damage

Now you may think it looks like a hill and not a mountain, but I assure you it is a mountain range, and not a little one at that. We see the size of the trees multiple times and the size of the mountains as well surrounding them.

Jin Tanks an attack that dwarfs the surrounding Mountains

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Jin’s one focus cuts through several mountains and clean through the countryside, cleaving a large slice through the land.

Jin unleashing his blade creates strong enough wind pressure to push back 1st generation disciples and destroy the ground underneath him.

Jin copies a attack after only seeing it once

Jin uses his blade to stab his opponent and restrict him temporarily so he can land blows

Jin beats the best Swordsman know throughout the main lands

Jin beats uncle jo who created a style specifically mean to beat the Nine Skies who are considered the strongest in all the land

Jin’s slice cleaves through the ground, bringing down a pavilion and slicing clean through the clouds.

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Jin is capable of sensings high level assassins sent to kill him

Snow Flower bewitched one the best information gatherers

Said person is stated to be a master martial artist

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A martial artist who is Jin’s inferior(Jin beat the unkillable swordsman who destroyed him) does this.

With the feats provided and info on his background, I think I made a pretty significant case for Jin.

Conclusion

Although this is no easy feat for Jin to come away with a victory, I do believe he has a significant edge to help him get the win. With his movements already being difficult to follow, but his sinister KI being used to confuse his opponents and give them a sense of dread would help in fighting another skilled opponent.

One thing I would like to address is about skill, this is a very hard aspect to gauge, but one thing is clear, skill is a deciding factor in the world of the Northern blade. Having masters of all forms of combat, including poison and illusions, Jin has to overcome all of this to reach the peak. I won’t say Jin surpasses Sion Zail in skill, but I will say that when it comes to the discussion of skill, Jin is far from below her. Like I mentioned earlier, in a world where skill and ability take precedent above all things, it’s only natural for it to be a big factor and attribute in Jin's skill set.

@mass Tag your it

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InfiniteMass

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Olorun

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@infinitemass: ooo, alt account vs main account, I wonder how this will go🤔🤔

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@olorun: Lol, I can see how you could come to that conclusion but I assure you we are 2 different people, for starters Mass is a girl and I am a man

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Olorun

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@infinitemass: how would you know??

Exactly you can't trick me. It's quite clearly a distraction tactic. "Aha 2 different sexes we couldn't be the same person".

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@infinitemass: looks good, I'll try to have my rebuttal up within a week or two

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@infinitemass: aren't you worried of running out of feats ? I mean jin doesn't have enough or does he

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#19  Edited By InfiniteMass

@smxlr8: He has more than enough, regardless in my rebuttals I don't need to present new feats, I can elaborate on the ones already shown.

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#20  Edited By Mass

@infinitemass: I almost forgot about this lol. I cant post until after Christmas but I will reply back sometime next week.

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#22  Edited By InfiniteMass
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@mass said:

@infinitemass: I almost forgot about this lol. I cant post until after Christmas but I will reply back sometime next week.

bump

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Sorry for the long delay! In truth, I completely forgot about this and when Infinitemass reminded me I was originally just going to drop out for lack of interest but the latest chapters of Legend of the Northern Blade have rekindled my drive to complete this CAV. That's the Mu-Won I want to face Sion. My apologies for the long wait so without further adieu, I give you my first rebuttal.

-- A Reason to Fear --

My condolences to Mu-Won's unfortunate past. Its not easy growing up in a world where everyone hates and fears you. You either give in to their hatred and spend your life in the dark or you show society the real reason to fear you. Sion will give Mu-Won that fear.

All the trauma and hatred Mu-Won experienced on the day of his father's execution is just like a normal day for Sion from the moment she was born. She never knew love, she didn't have a father to love and support her. Everything she has in life came from herself and nothing else. I think its time to show Mu-Won exactly why Sion was so feared.

In the world of the Northern Blade, class, political power, and wealth are all decided by strength and ability. Only those with superb Martial arts are able to live as kings, so everyone desperately tries to improve themselves to the best of their abilities, constantly sharing their techniques and hidden strength with their heirs in order to continue growing tier respective sects. Thus exists a world where fighting and Martial arts are the most common thing a person can engage in, so in order to rise to the top, your martial arts cannot just be 1 of the best, it needs to be the best. It’s like being in a world where Boxing determines your status and life, most people would fall low on the totem pole, but everyone would continue to strive and become better boxers to improve their own lives.

The strong prey on the weak, that is the rule of nature. That nature is the same in the Knight Run series only to a much larger extreme. In Sion's world, the purpose of one's marital arts isn't just for their social status, wealth, or even guarantee their lives. No, in Knight Run the skill of a single individual can mean the difference between an entire planet's population living or dying. The difference between winning a battle and the extinction of the human race. And yet even that amount of skill is only the bare minimum in Knight Run. Having the power to survive battle after battler, war after war, that is the baseline to becoming a Knight. Only the most gifted and talented individuals throughout the entire universe have the right to call themselves a Knight.

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That's the minimum requirement to became just a Knight Trainee. Now of course not everyone can become a Knight Trainee let alone a full Knight. There are other exceptionally skills fighters in the verse that can stomp entire squadrons of mechs and trained soldiers. Said fighters are specifically trained to either support or oppose the Knights and yet they get stomped by a single Knight Trainee who wasn't even trying to fight them.

Those trained fighters are also inferior to the Raven unit (an elite soldier group made to fight AGs instead of the Knights). Despite all their training, it still takes 30 space ships and 7 Raven Units to beat a single Type V AG.

Sion stands beyond all that. She can cleanly decapitate dozens of Type V AGs in a single moment.

Her skill alone made her the Top Sword of the Knights, the strongest there is. Her battle records proves it too. In a matter of just three years, Sion claimed victory on six different planets, saving six different worlds from complete annihilation

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So if you want to compare world settings, the genius' that are so highly respected in The Legend of the Northern Blade's society would just be another prodigy waiting in line to become a Knight.

This is an important consideration because as far as skill goes, nothing speaks more volumes than climbing in a society based on skill with nothing but skill on your side. As noted, Jin has never had a formal teacher, and he never learned martial arts from his father. As a matter of fact, while he was a child he was instead focused on studying the ancient language that was used in the secret Martial arts of the Northern sect. After the death of his father, he spent all of his time on top of the highest building reading the secret manual that was engraved in the Northern Sect itself. Without any guidance or help, he mastered the Northern Secs Martial arts and became one of the most feared martial artists in a short time.

You're right, all the talk in the world cannot make up for displays of raw skill and what better what to do that then to discover a long lost hidden martial art that reigns supreme over all others? Well fortunately for Sion, she has such a martial art, that and more.

The Myer Style of Martial Arts was formed from all sorts of legendary ancient martial arts to allow for combat of every kind. If you were to take the strongest parts of every martial art and fuse them all together into one supreme art, you'd get the Myer Style.

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Sounds similar to the Northern Sect Martial Arts right? Well it gets better. The Myer Style was taught to a Knight Trainee named Pray Mayer. Through her vast understanding of combat, Pray developed her own marital arts form called the Pray Style. Using this style, Pray utterly stomps every master of the Myer Style.

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Of the countless Martial Arts at Sion's dispose, are both the Myer Style and the Pray Style. Through the Sixty Thousand Acts of Wizardry, Sion can pummel Mu-Won with constantly changing and shifting forms.

Yet he still managed to learn in secret, with zero help or direction. As a matter of fact, he is so skilled he is capable of seeing other’s martial arts and helping enlighten them just at a glance.

So just like when 8-year old Sion taught Master Knight Clint Zail how to perfect his martial art that he spend 10 years working on.

Another attribute about the martial arts is how it is capable of stopping and slowing regeneration.

That's not an issue for Sion since she doesn't have regeneration. She's also used to fighting opponent's who could kill her with a single strike (like the Hyperion battle in my opener) so her combat style can easily adapt.

It should also be noted that Jins Martial arts is seen as unpredictable and as if he is a shadow. Even Master Martial artist have a tough time keeping up with his movements.

Its a good thing speed is equalized here or Sion would show Jin what real unpredictable attacks look like. That's nothing Sion can't handle. Clint's sword style is an invisible quickdraw that's so fast the opponent doesn't even realize they've been cut. Sion saw through the entire style with a single glance and even improved it at only 8-years old.

-- Snowflower vs Armored Blade --

As a bewitched blade, it possesses and can temporarily restrain whoever touches it or get’s stabbed by it.

As shown above, Sion is used to not being hit so getting even the slightest touch on her is going to be almost impossible with her skill alone. That's not to mention the closed space barrier created by the Armored Blade that surrounds Sion at all times. If you want to hit Sion you have to somehow match her level of skill and break her barrier at the same time.

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It can also cause others to hallucinate without even touching the sword, as it was shown to have a strong effect on people, pulling them closer to the sword itself.

Not a problem. Sion has the blood of Adam, the first Beast following through her veins. Its constantly trying to take control of her body and make her go berserk, but Sion's strong will overpowers the beast's nature urges.

The blade's best feat is restraining Jo during his fight with Jin, as Jin used the sword to temporarily stop Jo’s movements and use the chance to deliver some blows.

Which again won't work on Sion due to her innate willpower, Closed Space Barrier and that she was still able to fight Hyperion despite his weapons deducing her stats by a whopping 80%.

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So while Snowflower is strong and possesses unique powers; thanks to the Armored Blade's barrier, those powers become completely useless.

-- Skill vs Power --

I came into this CAV knowing that Jin has superior attack power. I agree with his power scaling but strength isn't everything. Sion's skill and agility more than make up for the power difference.

As you've seen in the Hyperion battle, Sion is used to fighting opponents that can kill her in a single strike. This battle is extremely similar with the exception that Jin Mu-Won isn't nearly as dangerous as Hyperion (due to Hyperion's hax). Hyperion is absolutely stronger than Sion and yet she can trade blows with it. Why? Because of her skills and equipment. Sion was able dodge and counter every attack from Hyperion despite the the alien possessing strength that should have easily overwhelmed her. The Closed Space from the Armored Blade and Sion's Power Suit, mediated the strength difference between Sion and Hyperion, allowed her to overwhelm the alien in sheer skill. The same thing will happen here.

One thing I would like to address is about skill, this is a very hard aspect to gauge, but one thing is clear, skill is a deciding factor in the world of the Northern blade. Having masters of all forms of combat, including poison and illusions, Jin has to overcome all of this to reach the peak. I won’t say Jin surpasses Sion Zail in skill, but I will say that when it comes to the discussion of skill, Jin is far from below her. Like I mentioned earlier, in a world where skill and ability take precedent above all things, it’s only natural for it to be a big factor and attribute in Jin's skill set.

There's the nail in the coffin for Mu-Win, Sion's monstrous understanding. The Northern Blade's unique martial arts have made him victorious in fight after fight thanks in part to no one else knowing about it. That will change in an instant against Sion. With a single glance, Sion will not only master the Northern Blade's martial arts but she'll actually figure out ways to improve it. There is no scenario in this battle where Mu-Win can win through skill since Sion will be using an improved version of his own skills against him. Add in the dozens of other martial arts forms at her dispose and it will be like Mu-Win is fighting dozens of Sions at once.

With his movements already being difficult to follow, but his sinister KI being used to confuse his opponents and give them a sense of dread would help in fighting another skilled opponent.

As I addressed either, Sion has counters and defenses against this.

From what has been posted, Mu-Win is easily superior to master martial artists in both skill and power. Said martial artists spend years perfecting their skills, constantly fighting for supremacy. Compared to the Knight Run universe, the master Martial Artists are about on par with the Raven Unit. An elite group of fighters that spent their lives training in various fighting skills with their lives on the line. Raven's aren't even on the same level as a Knight Trainee, let alone a Knight and not even remotely close to a Top Sword like Sion.

You have to remember that the Knights are made up of the best of the best of the best. Take the absolute best fighters from around the universe and you've got the BASE LEVEL to become a Knight Trainee. That's like taking only the Nine Skys from Northern Blade, calling them Knight trainees and then training them from there.

From what I've seen, Mu-Win's skill is around the Knight to Master Knight level, which is certainly nothing to be depressed about. His unique skills have seen him through battle after battle but he is still a rookie in Sion's book. Where Mu-Win is fighting dozens of opponents across his country, Sion is fighting stellar wars across multiple planets. Where Mu-Jin gets severely injured fighting an exceptionally powerful opponent, Sion kills opponent's that threaten an entire planetary population in a single strike.

So while Sion does not possess Jin Mu-Win's level of strength she easily exceeds him in both skill and combat exercise. Just like in her fight with Hyperion, Sion's superior skill will outshine Mu-Win's superior strength.

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#28  Edited By InfiniteMass

Rebuttal

The strong prey on the weak, that is the rule of nature. That nature is the same in the Knight Run series only to a much larger extreme. In Sion's world, the purpose of one's marital arts isn't just for their social status, wealth, or even guarantee their lives. No, in Knight Run the skill of a single individual can mean the difference between an entire planet's population living or dying. The difference between winning a battle and the extinction of the human race. And yet even that amount of skill is only the bare minimum in Knight Run. Having the power to survive battle after battler, war after war, that is the baseline to becoming a Knight. Only the most gifted and talented individuals throughout the entire universe have the right to call themselves a Knight.

Except even in their own world, there are countless people who don’t learn or know martial arts, instead they rely on the few chosen ones to protect them. In Jin Mu Wons world you are a part of a clan, and are taught martial arts from a young age, just about everyone knows a form of martial arts, as it’s their only way to survive, they don’t have protectors or saviors to rely on, only the people who stand above them. Also from the looks of it, Sion doesn’t really care about the Human race, she just acts, Jin on the other hand has had to protect his loved ones every single time.

That's the minimum requirement to became just a Knight Trainee. Now of course not everyone can become a Knight Trainee let alone a full Knight. There are other exceptionally skills fighters in the verse that can stomp entire squadrons of mechs and trained soldiers. Said fighters are specifically trained to either support or oppose the Knights and yet they get stomped by a single Knight Trainee who wasn't even trying to fight them.

If they are trained to fight knights and can’t beat a single trainee, then either that's an anti feat for the squad or a feat for the Knight trainee. If they are trained to do one job, and they can’t even do it, then they aren’t that well trained. That's like hiring an assassin to assassinate a target he is trained to fight against and he still fails. So either the squadron is pathetic, or the knight trainee is years beyond other Knights already.

Those trained fighters are also inferior to the Raven unit (an elite soldier group made to fight AGs instead of the Knights). Despite all their training, it still takes 30 space ships and 7 Raven Units to beat a single Type V AG.

Yeah but they are not super humans like the knights right? The reason it took so much to beat them isn’t because of a lack of skill but because of a lack of strength. If it was due to skill then they would need to be evenly matched somewhat but that isn’t the case.

Sion stands beyond all that. She can cleanly decapitate dozens of Type V AGs in a single moment.

I would imagine so, she is their superior, Jin regularly stomps people weaker than him, literally blasting away first generation disciples with the simple draw of his blade. A group of disciples that even the Iron Brigade were worried about facing.

So if you want to compare world settings, the genius' that are so highly respected in The Legend of the Northern Blade's society would just be another prodigy waiting in line to become a Knight.

Now why would that be the case? You haven’t exactly explained why they are considered more skilled when all you used were examples of people getting stomped by stronger opponents. Superman beating Batman isn’t because he’s more skilled than him, it’s because he is superior enough that Skill isn’t needed.

Sounds similar to the Northern Sect Martial Arts right? Well it gets better. The Myer Style was taught to a Knight Trainee named Pray Mayer. Through her vast understanding of combat, Pray developed her own marital arts form called the Pray Style. Using this style, Pray utterly stomps every master of the Myer Style.

Not at all, the Northern Sect’s martial arts was created from turmoil, 100 years of war and murder caused by the silent night, they didn’t have time to refine it above all others, the creator simply made it so in a time when it was needed. It’s also only ever passed down to one descendant, it isn’t something where multiple masters are able to learn it and grow it’s capabilities.

Of the countless Martial Arts at Sion's dispose, are both the Myer Style and the Pray Style. Through the Sixty Thousand Acts of Wizardry, Sion can pummel Mu-Won with constantly changing and shifting forms.

I doubt this will do much, as you remember, Jin beat a Master Martial artist while never having fought anyone before. Said Martial artist was also faster and far more experienced, yet he could beat him. Meaning he has a knack for going against unknown techniques and fighting while completely unprepared with nothing but his sword to protect him.

So just like when 8-year old Sion taught Master Knight Clint Zail how to perfect his martial art that he spend 10 years working on.

It’s not close to being the same and I will explain why. Jin wasn’t just not taught Martial Arts, if you remember he was under constant watch so he would not be able to learn Martial arts at all. He had no textbooks, no visual reference, he was under watch, and beaten for any hidden knowledge. This isn’t as simple as being a young prodigy, this is literally having the world against you doing something, and you still finding a way to become the best at it. That’s going against all odds, Sion was groomed to be the best(Yes in a horrific way but still), Jin was beaten so he wouldn’t have a chance.

Its a good thing speed is equalized here or Sion would show Jin what real unpredictable attacks look like. That's nothing Sion can't handle. Clint's sword style is an invisible quickdraw that's so fast the opponent doesn't even realize they've been cut. Sion saw through the entire style with a single glance and even improved it at only 8-years old.

Jin has literally done the same casually, literally defeating multiple first Generation disciples from just pulling out his sword. Not to mention Sion seeing the attack doesn’t have to do with her seeing through unpredictable attacks, she can see the speed of it. Clint’s attack isn’t unpredictable, if someone is faster than him, he won’t be able to cut them. Jin on the other hand was able to confuse Master Martial Artists who have similar strength and speed, making it difficult for others to be able to read his movements since it’s so unorthodox. And this isn’t just any person, but a person who fought side by side with Jin’s father and has seen his techniques multiple times. Yet he still could not easily read his movements.

As shown above, Sion is used to not being hit so getting even the slightest touch on her is going to be almost impossible with her skill alone. That's not to mention the closed space barrier created by the Armored Blade that surrounds Sion at all times. If you want to hit Sion you have to somehow match her level of skill and break her barrier at the same time.

Just because she isn’t used to being hit, doesn’t mean she can’t be hit, she has never faced an opponent like Jin, and Jin doesn’t need to touch her for Snow Flower to take its effects. As shown before Snow Flower is able to control and possess the minds of master martial artists. Add the fact that Jin's own style confuses his opponents, you have a deadly combo in both Jin and Snow Flower. Sure she can fight off the power within her who tries to control her, but Jin’s Sword easily controlled a Master Martial artist who is well versed in espionage and stealth, to the point that even other masters around them couldn’t detect him. Yet he was still affected, and easily I might add, this is also a universe in which illusions are capable of affecting others, so it’s not like these things are uncommon in Jin’s universe. Now I don’t think it will control her, but that with Jin’s Martial Arts and his immense power that also has long range attacks should suffice to cause her more than enough trouble. We both agree one hit and she’s dead.

So while Snowflower is strong and possesses unique powers; thanks to the Armored Blade's barrier, those powers become completely useless.

Except it isn’t, it complements Jin’s abilities to give him an edge in combat.

I came into this CAV knowing that Jin has superior attack power. I agree with his power scaling but strength isn't everything. Sion's skill and agility more than make up for the power difference.

It isn’t just power, Jin also has superb AOE, meaning he can keep her at bay when he wants and get close when he needs to.

As you've seen in the Hyperion battle, Sion is used to fighting opponents that can kill her in a single strike. This battle is extremely similar with the exception that Jin Mu-Won isn't nearly as dangerous as Hyperion (due to Hyperion's hax). Hyperion is absolutely stronger than Sion and yet she can trade blows with it. Why? Because of her skills and equipment. Sion was able dodge and counter every attack from Hyperion despite the the alien possessing strength that should have easily overwhelmed her. The Closed Space from the Armored Blade and Sion's Power Suit, mediated the strength difference between Sion and Hyperion, allowed her to overwhelm the alien in sheer skill. The same thing will happen here.

Except Hyperion doesn’t have any of the advantages that Jin does, from being unpredictable, to having a blade known to confuse his targets, to having impressive AOE attacks and being vastly superior to skill than Hyperion, unless you can prove Hyperion has the skill above Jin.

I have already mentioned earlier that I don’t take your skill scaling seriously, since it relies on scaling people who are weaker than others, and those people aren’t getting beat by sure skill. When power doesn't make a huge difference is when you see real skill come out.

There's the nail in the coffin for Mu-Win, Sion's monstrous understanding. The Northern Blade's unique martial arts have made him victorious in fight after fight thanks in part to no one else knowing about it.

This is the part that really gets to me, 2 times Jin fought Master Martial Artists who not only knew the martial arts of the Northern Sect, but fought alongside it for years. You cannot say that they had no idea about his martial arts, and that’s why he beat them, I mean even Uncle Jo said it was unpredictable, and he spent all his life trying to surpass Jin’s father.

Although they were never taught how to use the Martial Arts of Northern Heavenly Sect, to say they had no idea about it is just not true at all.

That will change in an instant against Sion. With a single glance, Sion will not only master the Northern Blade's martial arts but she'll actually figure out ways to improve it. There is no scenario in this battle where Mu-Win can win through skill since Sion will be using an improved version of his own skills against him. Add in the dozens of other martial arts forms at her dispose and it will be like Mu-Win is fighting dozens of Sions at once.

Are you forgetting she isn’t the only person here who is capable of copying skills, Jin did it against the sword god mid fight and overpowered him with his own move. Not to mention there is no way she can copy his martial arts, because it needs to be cultivated with shadow ki, and no one knows how to cultivate sinister Ki except Jin as he was the only one able to read the manual. To say Sion could copy his Martial arts is to say she can also copy a kamehameha wave from Goku, but she doesn’t have any of the Ki necessary to do it, nor will she know how. Otherwise any master martial artist in the series would easily copy and perform the same moves as Jin, look at the sword god for example, he was nowhere near the level of Jin’s father despite him working his entire life to reach the pinnacle of the sword. It isn’t that easy and isn’t that simple, there are prerequisites.

As I addressed either, Sion has counters and defenses against this.

Which honestly I don’t think will do much, she is fighting someone extremely unique with not just power on his side, but a type of martial arts she has never seen before and cannot copy.

From what has been posted, Mu-Win is easily superior to master martial artists in both skill and power. Said martial artists spend years perfecting their skills, constantly fighting for supremacy. Compared to the Knight Run universe, the master Martial Artists are about on par with the Raven Unit. An elite group of fighters that spent their lives training in various fighting skills with their lives on the line. Raven's aren't even on the same level as a Knight Trainee, let alone a Knight and not even remotely close to a Top Sword like Sion.

That's completely based on nothing, unless you can prove they are at the same level, that is a baseless statement. I could literally say the Knight trainees are similar to the Curealean society since they are martial artists who have been trained since birth. There is no reason you should be saying that the master martial artists are on their level when they haven’t even shown skill to begin with.

You have to remember that the Knights are made up of the best of the best of the best.

And so are the master Martial artists that Jin has to face, what's the point here?

They are the best in their verse, yes, but there isn’t sufficient or any evidence to say otherwise.

Take the absolute best fighters from around the universe and you've got the BASE LEVEL to become a Knight Trainee.

Another baseless statement, people like Karate Kid would murder her, he’s so skilled, he can beat superman level opponents with skill alone, despite having human limitations. She hasn’t shown anything that hasn’t been shown in countless other mangas and webtoons, she’s a prodigy in her universe.

That's like taking only the Nine Skys from Northern Blade, calling them Knight trainees and then training them from there.

Knight trainees don’t have to cultivate KI or learn strictly from manuals to learn specific martial arts. The reason Martial arts cannot be combined into 1 in the Northern Blade is because they are capable of combining 2 different types of KI. That’s like saying a person born cultivating light Ki can suddenly learn poison arts despite having no poison resistance or knowledge. There is more to it than simply swinging your sword and parrying attacks.

From what I've seen, Mu-Win's skill is around the Knight to Master Knight level, which is certainly nothing to be depressed about.

Another baseless statement with no facts to back it up, why is Jin’s martial arts inferior?

Take Batman from DC comics for example, he knows every form of combat, yet he isn’t the best martial artist in the DC universe. Bronze tiger doesn’t know every martial art and yet is capable of stomping Batman multiple times. The amount of Martial arts combined doesn’t make you more skilled than another person.

So while Sion does not possess Jin Mu-Win's level of strength she easily exceeds him in both skill and combat exercise. Just like in her fight with Hyperion, Sion's superior skill will outshine Mu-Win's superior strength.

I have yet to see a legitimate counter to anything I pointed out.

Conclusion

I don’t think Jin is as skilled as Sion, but I don’t think it’s a huge gap either, I think they are somewhat close and that Jin has multiple advantages. That being strength, AOE attacks, DC attacks, and his ability to confuse his opponents, including master martial artists who are known for reading their opponents movements.

You have to bring something else to the table than Skill, since it varies from universe to universe and can be really hard to pinpoint. Not to mention a lot of the things can be broken down even further, if you want I can show you specifically how Jin could be considered a better martial artist if you really want me too. From actually having ground game and great hand 2 hand feats, to being able to improvise attacks on the fly.

All in all, I think I have more arguments than just x is more skilled because I said so, even though I genuinely think she’s more skilled, I don’t think the gap is big enough to overcome Jin’s offense.

@mass you are up!

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#29  Edited By RikiX

@Infinitemass Not sure if I'm allowed to comment, and if I'm not, you can just tell me so I can delete this comment.

But some minor details, it's not sinister Ki. It's shadow Ki, the complete opposite of Ki, and no one can sense him due to it.

Also, there is a nice detail from the novel. It says:

"Jin Mu-Won was already fifteen. He was at the age where most children of large martial clans began to shine.

These children would have started learning martial arts around the age of six or seven, but only around age fifteen when they were allowed to do muscle training would they be able to match adults in strength. They also would have been taking medication and receiving treatment since they were born to make their bodies more suited to chi cultivation."

So yeah, pretty much everyone in LOTNB started learning martial arts when they were 6 to 7 years old. Just wanted to point that out.

I'll peace out now.

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How does Mass beat someone named Infinite Mass

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@rikix: Thanks for the info, but yeah probably shouldn't have commented lol, but would you like to be tagged for the vote?

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#32  Edited By RikiX

Ah, sorry then.

Also yeah.

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@mass: Sounds good Will do

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Never done this before, but if it's any similar to any other voting on other sites, then...

Honestly I was initially gonna say Sion since I thought she was much more skilled. But after seeing the arguments, and the recent chapters backing up what is being said here, I'll go ahead and vote for IM/Jin.