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#1 Edited by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio

An exciting MCU/DCEU battle. Power vs tricks

Team MCU represented by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps

No Caption Provided
  • Dr. Strange (4)
  • Loki (3)

Perks:

  • Extra Character point (2)
  • Mind Link (2)
  • 15 minutes prep on battlefield (1)
  • Morals off (5 - Apply to Strange)

Facing off against TheSpartanB345T representing the team DCEU

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

  • DCEU Doomsday (5 pts)
  • DCEU Deadshot (1 pt)

Perks:

  • Speed equalized (8 pts)
  • 21 mercs of Lex Luthor (2)

Rules:

  • This is a CaV between GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps and TheSpartanB345T. So the debate remains between them. Please do not interfere between them.
  • You can ask to be tagged for votes though, and you can vote after the debate is over. Remember, you should vote for the debater who convinced that their team will win based on the evidence provided in the debate. Don't simply vote for who you think should win.
  • If a vote looks biased, we might not count it.

Battle rules:

  • The fight takes place in a large field of grass. Fighters start 40 meters (127 feet) apart near the middle of the field. They start on the ground. About a km away from there is a river surrounding the field from all sides, ie circular. It is 5 m wide, 5 m deep.
  • Win by any means except BFR
  • No living person is anywhere near the battlefield and the characters are aware of it.
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#2 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by eri123 (1212 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

Online
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#4 Posted by Chronicplane (9203 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

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#5 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2658 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2658 posts) - - Show Bio

Stephen Strange & Loki Laufeyson: Masters of The Mystic Arts

No Caption Provided
Loading Video...

Prep/Gameplan:

Ok, I'm going to be doing this in a different for my normal CaV posts and will be jumping straight into the prep, as most of what I would normally show in a general opener would overlap in this case & I'd like to make this post as short as possible for the sake of keeping this tourney moving, so without further ado, let's begin.

Loading Video...

First thing Strange will do is look into the future. Now I don't think I have to explain what this does, every knows this by now, so I'll let the video do all the talking and just say that the number Strange sees will be quite different, and that the Mind Link perk allows Loki to see what happens as well.

Thor: The Dark World
Thor: The Dark World

Meanwhilst, Loki will be setting up his Illusions, making it so that my duo will be effectively invisible, and yours will be attacking something that isn't even real.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Both from Avengers: Infinity War

Finally, Strange will step up not only his Mirror Dimension barriers, giving my duo an extra layer of protection, and well as summon as many clones as he desires, pretty self-explanatory for both offense and defensive purposes.

All of this won't take long and will certainly take less than 15 minutes.

Now as for the fight itself, I'm fully aware that Doomsday has never dealt with Illusions before, so naturally he'd fall for the them, which also Strange and his many clones to apply what will take you down:

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

That being transmutation, and thanks to being Morals Off and the future foresight can be something Strange opts for immediately, and since I'm quite sure you don't have transmutation resistance, this will be a certified kill, letting Strange take you out whilst you're seeing a fake mirage, with no real way to tell what's going on before being turned into butterflies.

Another thing that's worth noting is that your speed equalized perk actually helps me more than you, allowing a blitz to be impossible and opens the gate for Strange to truly go ham.

Oh, and as for Deadshot and your fodder, I think it's safe to say they ain't doing much (This is pretty much just gonna be Strange vs Doomsday).

Avengers
Avengers

Honestly, considering Loki's bulletproof nature, plus the illusions still being intact, there's nothing stopping him from just waltzing up to them and ripping them to shreds with his Knives. So overall, they will never really be a threat.

Conclusion:

Of course, we can get into stuff like physicals at a later date, but in this post I simply wanted to show the essentials and my main focus of victory throughout this debate.

  1. My team knows every possible outcome
  2. The Illusions and Mirror Dimension shields allow for good defenses should you try and attack wildly
  3. Transmutation allows for a surefire means of defeat for anyone Strange gets his hands on
Let's begin.
Let's begin.
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#7 Edited by Chronicplane (9203 posts) - - Show Bio

Whoa.

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#8 Posted by GateOfBabylon (4402 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#10 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio

that was fast

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#11 Posted by geekryan (4770 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#12 Posted by FaradaySloth (10083 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and TAEP

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#13 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4171 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow good post. Mine will be up soon (hopefully).

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#14 Posted by Xerolot (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#15 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

This is weird.

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#16 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4171 posts) - - Show Bio

Doomsday, Deadshot, and the Asian Mercenary's Crew

Bow down before your Lord and Savior.
Bow down before your Lord and Savior.

Let's start a bit smaller:

Mercenaries

Loading Video...

This covers pretty much everything about the mercenaries that you need to know.

First off, they have an insane technology advantage. In the video, you can see they have access to a tremendous amount of gear, including:

  • Machine guns
  • 3 Dodge RAM pickup trucks
  • Several mounted heavy machine guns
  • 20+ assault rifles with armor-piercing rounds (this will be important later)
  • A flamethrower
  • Explosives

The most dangerous aspect of this team, however, are the members themselves. There are 24 armed, highly skilled and trained mercenaries ready to demolish anything in their paths.

While I certainly don't believe that they would be able to put your team down by themselves, they will definitely make a difference in this fight. You see, Dr. Strange and Loki do not have the time to fodderize the entire team without being distracted, as there are two much more dangerous members of the team that they must first deal with.

Deadshot

You are critically underselling Deadshot's importance in this battle. If he sees Strange or Loki at any point, he will kill them. Nobody on your team is a bullet-timer and Dr. Strange certainly isn't bulletproof, and Deadshot doesn't miss.

This is not an exaggeration by any means.

Moreover, his superhuman levels of accuracy are only amplified by his eyepatch and scope, which calculate and adjust his shot placement if he somehow fails to hit his target.

Not only will Deadshot easily dispatch Doctor Strange once he finds him, but he will also be able to hit Loki in his eyes if his skull proves itself to be too bulletproof.

And here is the moment that you've all been waiting for...

Doomsday

While he is by far the weakest member of my team, he still has lots to offer in terms of this battle.

Durability

Hurting Doomsday via physical means is impossible for Loki and Strange.

Doomsday can tank both nuclear blasts AND falls from space onto Earth.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Furthermore, he can replace limbs

No Caption Provided

And tank rockets and heavy machine gun fire from helicopters.

No physical attacks in Loki's or Strange's arsenals will be able to hurt him.

Strength and Offensive Abilities

Getting close to Doomsday is a very poor choice and neither of your characters have the durability to resist his levels of strength:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
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No Caption Provided

He is able to hurt characters like Superman and Wonder Woman with his punches. Loki and Strange are much lower in durability then both of them.

Ranged Abilities

He has several ranged attacks available for use.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Doomsday's heat vision is at the very least hypersonic. Strange and Loki will be vaporized if they come into contact with it, and likely will be unable to react properly with shields before they are decimated.

No Caption Provided

He also is capable of producing evolution shockwaves, which are AoE blasts that can essentially city-bust. This attack is unavoidable and with undoubtedly end in Loki and Strange's death.

Evolution shockwaves occur whenever Doomsday adapts. His adaptations occur whenever he is injured or encounters a new substance/form of attack that he has not adapted against yet. Many of the offensive magic attacks that Strange and Loki will perform will trigger this adaptation process; the shockwave is highly likely to occur in this battle.

It is also worth noting that Doomsday can fly.

No Caption Provided

So this negates Strange's flight advantage.

Now, before I tie in all of their abilities together, allow me to counter some of the points that you've made (my attack plan makes more sense that way.)

Counters

First off:

Prep/Gameplan:

Ok, I'm going to be doing this in a different for my normal CaV posts and will be jumping straight into the prep, as most of what I would normally show in a general opener would overlap in this case & I'd like to make this post as short as possible for the sake of keeping this tourney moving, so without further ado, let's begin.

First thing Strange will do is look into the future. Now I don't think I have to explain what this does, every knows this by now, so I'll let the video do all the talking and just say that the number Strange sees will be quite different, and that the Mind Link perk allows Loki to see what happens as well.

While Strange did this in Infinity War, I don't believe he will do it in this battle. Strange is adamant about not using the stone unless absolutely necessary (this is made clear by the end of his solo film) and he only did this to Thanos because the universe was at stake.

Even if he does somehow choose to do this, it isn't foolproof.

While this is definitely useful, it does not guarantee a win by any means. Because of all of the millions of tiny variables changing each action that will occur (or the Butterfly Effect) it is incredibly difficult to ensure that your team will remain in a winning timeline. While Strange may have a "photographic memory" (which is still limited, of course) both he and ESPECIALLY Loki will struggle to remember the exact circumstances of the infinite amounts of timelines.

There is another issue as well: there is a truly INFINITE number of timelines. In Infinity War, Strange stopped as soon as he found the winning timeline. If he had kept going, he could have found 3 or 4 more in the next few million but decided to memorize and practice ONE scenario. The problem is that this is not as feasible in this situation. While Loki and Strange can try to manipulate the results to the best of their abilities, they CANNOT control the reactions of the 24 mercenaries and Deadshot, but merely predict them. It is possible to estimate the mercenaries actions, as they are human and logical. It is not as simple with Doomsday, however. He is an uncontrollable beast. His impulses are not logical and are possibly unknown in origin. Doomsday's reactions are random and unpredictable. While using the losing timelines to learn their reactions is possible, there are so many possible changes and reactions in each moment that could go wrong that it is nearly impossible to replicate as the timeline suggested. I do believe Strange would partially succeed in keeping the team on the right timeline, Loki is not nearly as refined or exact as Strange. His mistakes could result in catastrophic changes and more unpredictability. The timeline issue is extremely complicated and fragile and may end up doing more harm than good.

Loki to see what happens as well.

Thor: The Dark World
Thor: The Dark World

Meanwhilst, Loki will be setting up his Illusions, making it so that my duo will be effectively invisible, and yours will be attacking something that isn't even real.

Can Loki even attack someone while in an illusion? Because it seems to me that any physical disruptions make the illusion disappear and reveal the truth. (Touching a fake Loki will result in that Loki disappearing and the revelation of the true Loki)

No Caption Provided

Finally, Strange will step up not only his Mirror Dimension barriers, giving my duo an extra layer of protection, and well as summon as many clones as he desires, pretty self-explanatory for both offense and defensive purposes.

The clones are all easily shot down or fodderized by Doomsday. Strange has to rely on luck, as he could be targeted by any of the 26 enemies actively seeking him out; there is no guarantee that he won't be hit. Cloning doesn't stop the fact that he has no way of hurting Doomsday and only inevitable.

All of this won't take long and will certainly take less than 15 minutes.

Fair.

Now as for the fight itself, I'm fully aware that Doomsday has never dealt with Illusions before, so naturally he'd fall for the them, which also Strange and his many clones to apply what will take you down:

He can easily adapt to the illusions...

In all seriousness, Doomsday would stop fighting the illusions once they disappeared (as any physical contact causes this.)

down:

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

That being transmutation, and thanks to being Morals Off and the future foresight can be something Strange opts for immediately, and since I'm quite sure you don't have transmutation resistance, this will be a certified kill, letting Strange take you out whilst you're seeing a fake mirage, with no real way to tell what's going on before being turned into butterflies.

Several issues come up with this argument:

  1. This attack has no ranged capabilities
  2. It takes several seconds to charge and properly use
  3. We've never seen it work on living things

He used it on a black hole. We don't even know if he can do this to anything other than similar, non-matter objects. Because Strange has never used it even on real matter, let alone a living, breathing organism, you can't assume that it work on Doomsday.

Furthermore, attempting this on Doomsday will only result in one thing:

No Caption Provided

Strange will die trying to attempt this. It takes several seconds to do this and requires that you touch the target. In trying to do this, Strange is risking a lot for a very questionable method of incapacitation.

The other issue is that Strange's clones clearly do the same thing at the same time, meaning that they are much easier to deflect and predictable in movement. Surrounding Doomsday may not be the best choice either:

No Caption Provided

R.I.P to the dozens of Stranges...

Oh, and as for Deadshot and your fodder, I think it's safe to say they ain't doing much (This is pretty much just gonna be Strange vs Doomsday).

No Caption Provided

(This is pretty much just gonna be Strange vs Doomsday).

Avengers
Avengers

Honestly, considering Loki's bulletproof nature, plus the illusions still being intact, there's nothing stopping him from just waltzing up to them and ripping them to shreds with his Knives. So overall, they will never really be a threat.

We know he is bulletproof to handgun rounds, but not all guns are equal.

According to this article: (political or not, it helps my point lmao)

The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal…The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange

9-millimeter rounds don't even go through most of their victims, but rather stay inside them.

There is a reason that a 5.56/.223 of an AR-15 and a 9 mm are vastly different. Assault rifle rounds are made to have increased piercing power, as they are meant to maim the target (which makes the enemy heal the soldier, leading to more money spent and more resources brought) and pierce body armor. Handgun rounds stay in the target instead of going through so that the victim stays down when it is hit. In the case of this battle, this means that Loki is going to feel Deadshot's AR-15 rounds much more than a normal bullet. Furthermore, there are 20ish mercs firing at him as well, and they have military grade armor-piercing rounds, which are MUCH more effective at going through tough materials (like, say, Loki's skull) than 9 mm rounds.

If you still don't get it, here's a visual for you:

The pistol round that Loki was hit with was a 9 mm. The soldiers and Deadshot will have access to .223s and 7.62x39s.
The pistol round that Loki was hit with was a 9 mm. The soldiers and Deadshot will have access to .223s and 7.62x39s.

Loki has no feats suggesting he can even remotely survive an armor-piercing round to the head. Once his illusion is disrupted by a bullet and his location is revealed, he will be dropped very quickly.

It is also worth noting that the heavy machine guns on the trucks are MUCH stronger than assault rifle rounds and use MUCH heavier ammunition as well. (They can use .50 calibers, which pierce tanks and planes and cause people to explode.)

9 mm vs .50 cal
9 mm vs .50 cal

So even if Loki can survive an assault rifle round (spoiler: he can't) then this will more than suffice.

So overall, they will never really be a threat.

No Caption Provided

  1. My team knows every possible outcome

That's not possible, there is an infinite amount. They know SOME of the outcomes. The more they know, the more confusing and stressful the battle is.

  1. The Illusions and Mirror Dimension shields allow for good defenses should you try and attack wildly

Illusions are good easily disrupted (unless you can prove otherwise?) and mirror dimension shields are stationary and work both ways. The shields will stop your attacks AND mine, and they are limited in their range. If Strange decides to move too much, the shield is useless. It doesn't follow him and can only go forwards, we don't know if it can even stay in one place. The shields will work if the team wants to sit their and wait, but that's just delaying the inevitable.

  1. Transmutation allows for a surefire means of defeat for anyone Strange gets his hands on

I addressed this.

Now, for my gameplan.

The Endgame

Get it? Because of the movie?

  • Deadshot will assume control of the mercs. With the combination of his amazing accuracy and all of their sheer firepower, they provide a very dangerous distraction to Strange and Loki, who both can be immediately shot and killed. Illusions will not last long at all (physical disruption) and Deadshot can drop both of them before they react. Add in 24 highly trained mercs, explosives, heavy machine guns, and THREE DODGE RAM TRUCKS and you have a very effective death squad.

Just imagine Deadshot riding around in a DODGE RAM, headshotting Strange and Loki. That's one of the trillions of outcomes, and Strange and Loki are going to see that. They might kill themselves right then and there from the sheer fear factor, ending the battle before it begins.

  • Loki is getting one-shotted, either by Doomsday or Deadshot. His illusions are easy to disrupt, and the moment his true location is revealed he dies. Since Loki dies fairly quickly, Strange has to defend himself from Doomsday (who he has no way of putting down) and several dozens mercs and a man who doesn't miss. He isn't bulletproof and so eventually, despite all of his planning, shielding, and "precognition," he gets overwhelmed and dies.
  • I can't stress this enough: without transmutation (which is completely ambiguous in nature and likely doesn't work on living things) he has no way of putting Doomsday down. At all.
  • Even if transmutation works, there is no way it will bring Strange a win for a majority of the time. It requires him to get very close and is incredibly slow in nature. Half of the time, he gets killed by Doomsday before the spell goes off. The other half he gets shot by Deadshot from a Dodge RAM pickup truck.

Here's how the battle will go:

Let's look into the future.
Let's look into the future.

First outcome:

Bitch.
Bitch.

Back to real-time:

Loki, you're on your own.
Loki, you're on your own.

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#17 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4171 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27883 posts) - - Show Bio

Dammit y'all are posting so fast.

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#19 Posted by TonyMartial (9770 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2658 posts) - - Show Bio

Counter: Mages against The Monster

No Caption Provided

Fodder/Deadshot:

First off, they have an insane technology advantage. In the video, you can see they have access to a tremendous amount of gear, including: Machine guns 3 Dodge RAM pickup trucks Several mounted heavy machine guns 20+ assault rifles with armour-piercing rounds (this will be important later) A flamethrower Explosives

None of which are helping with the task of dealing with illusions, and will either be caught in the mirror dimension shields, or they'll be shooting nothing but air.

The most dangerous aspect of this team, however, are the members themselves. There are 24 armed, highly skilled and trained mercenaries ready to demolish anything in their paths.

Do they even have anything beyond vague statements that'd mean anything in regards of how deadly they are? Cause going purely by feats, they have absolutely nothing worth a damn beyond getting smacked up by Batman, who himself really doesn't have anything impressive beyond this fight iirc, so it's a weird paradox of un-impressiveness.

While I certainly don't believe that they would be able to put your team down by themselves, they will definitely make a difference in this fight. You see, Dr. Strange and Loki do not have the time to fodderize the entire team without being distracted, as there are two much more dangerous members of the team that they must first deal with.

If I take out Deadshot, the fodder goes with him, and Loki can solo them all just fine (more on that during the counters section).

You are critically underselling Deadshot's importance in this battle. If he sees Strange or Loki at any point, he will kill them. Nobody on your team is a bullet-timer and Dr. Strange certainly isn't bulletproof, and Deadshot doesn't miss.

I address Loki's speed at a later point in this debate, but Strange certainly has supersonic speeds.

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

His ability to react too and block attacks from Thanos (the same guy who smacked up Hulk, the monster who scales at worst equal to the Mach 2 Abomination. Keep in mind Hulk only tagged Thanos via a surprise attack) should give him the supersonic speeds needed to block/avoid the bullets just fine, especially since Deadshot hasn't hit anything moving at supersonic speeds iirc (both the feats you showed where on stationary targets).

Also you have speed equalized, so ultimately, if I ain't bullet timers, neither are you, but I'll just put feats here for the sake of answering the question in need of an answer here.

Moreover, his superhuman levels of accuracy are only amplified by his eyepatch and scope, which calculate and adjust his shot placement if he somehow fails to hit his target.

Won't help against illusions.

Not only will Deadshot easily dispatch Doctor Strange once he finds him, but he will also be able to hit Loki in his eyes if his skull proves itself to be too bulletproof.

Not before it enters a CQC scenario, which Loki greatly dominates in and would stomp Floyd within due to way superior strength, durability, gear and skill (I can go into detail next post).

Doomsday:

I'll be skipping over durability as you showed nothing for transmutation (the way I intend to take you down) and the healing factor doesn't stop him from being turned into butterflies (heck, so long as the heads gone that might be enough, since his healing factor as never shown to be able to heal brain damage/destruction iirc, tho will admit, may be wrong).

I will also going to ignore strength/heat damage as I'll admit that Loki & Strange can't last long against DD's damage potential, but they aren't getting hit at all thanks to DD's non-existent outs to illusions.

So yeah, an entire section skipped lol. Apologies, but DD's best factors aren't gonna be the deciding factor, so there'd be no point.

Initial Counters:

While Strange did this in Infinity War, I don't believe he will do it in this battle. Strange is adamant about not using the stone unless absolutely necessary (this is made clear by the end of his solo film) and he only did this to Thanos because the universe was at stake.

Fortunately, Morals Off for Strange means I don't have to worry about any pesky in-character arguments getting in the way.

While this is definitely useful, it does not guarantee a win by any means. Because of all of the millions of tiny variables changing each action that will occur (or the Butterfly Effect) it is incredibly difficult to ensure that your team will remain in a winning timeline.

It still effectively gives the duo full knowledge on everything your team can throw at them and where you will start in the battle (since that part won't change no matter what), and can position themselves accordingly, something I admittedly forgot to bring up in my opener, but something that will also make transmuting DD incredibly easy.

While Strange may have a "photographic memory" (which is still limited, of course) both he and ESPECIALLY Loki will struggle to remember the exact circumstances of the infinite amounts of timelines.

Well their's not much to really remember tbh. Since you don't have prep Loki and Strange will know exactly where you spawn, it's all pretty much a matter of positioning and knowing that transmutation will work wonders.

There is another issue as well: there is a truly INFINITE number of timelines. In Infinity War, Strange stopped as soon as he found the winning timeline. If he had kept going, he could have found 3 or 4 more in the next few million but decided to memorize and practice ONE scenario.

Uh, where is this coming from? In IW, Strange looked into every timeline he could, and to say he just stopped the moment he found a winning solution is pure head canon, so unless I'm missing something, you're gonna need sources to back up your claim.

Hell, Strange even says in the video I linked "To see all the possible outcomes of the coming conflict.", and he has absolutely no reason to lie/hyperbole about this, so not only is what you're saying is head-canon, but it's also contradicted by what Strange says here.

The problem is that this is not as feasible in this situation. While Loki and Strange can try to manipulate the results to the best of their abilities, they CANNOT control the reactions of the 24 mercenaries and Deadshot, but merely predict them. It is possible to estimate the mercenaries actions, as they are human and logical.

Who have never even seen powers like what Loki & Strange possess afaik and thus without prior knowledge, have no idea how to deal with them.

It is not as simple with Doomsday, however. He is an uncontrollable beast. His impulses are not logical and are possibly unknown in origin. Doomsday's reactions are random and unpredictable. While using the losing timelines to learn their reactions is possible, there are so many possible changes and reactions in each moment that could go wrong that it is nearly impossible to replicate as the timeline suggested.

But they do know what is the most likely to happen. We know DD doesn't open with spamming AOE shockwaves, for example (more on that later), so we can always make very educated guesses based on where Strange places the clones, as well as with Loki's illusions. Pus it won't really matter, given the plan I have for this fight which I'll show in detail with at the conclusion.

I do believe Strange would partially succeed in keeping the team on the right timeline, Loki is not nearly as refined or exact as Strange. His mistakes could result in catastrophic changes and more unpredictability. The timeline issue is extremely complicated and fragile and may end up doing more harm than good.

Nah, it'll do nothing but good, and all Loki needs to do is setup his Illusions, keep them up, then he can run off and do whatever he wants really, Strange can handle the rest solo. Obviously he won't be doing nothing, he'll be cleaning up the fodder whilst the good Doctor deals with DD, but you can hopefully see my point. Loki can't screw up cause their's nothing really to screw up.

Can Loki even attack someone while in an illusion? Because it seems to me that any physical disruptions make the illusion disappear and reveal the truth. (Touching a fake Loki will result in that Loki disappearing and the revelation of the true Loki)

Avengers
Avengers

As far as attacking whilst using Illusions go, this scan is pretty self-explanatory, he can fight back just fine and blend in with he rest of illusions being thrown around.

Thor: The Dark World
Thor: The Dark World

And this scan directly debunks that the illusions disappear after touch, again pretty self-explanatory. It's more accurate to say Loki has an 'On and Off' button for his illusions (heck we can even see that the illusions can affect the real world via how the rocks fall off the cliff), unless hit with an incredibly hard attack like Thor's lightning (which only DD can replicate, unless we're claiming regular guns=Thor's lightning, which I doubt).

The gif you used was clearly supposed to be Loki intentionally turning the illusion off to screw around with Odinson, so it's not really that apt of a comparison.

The clones are all easily shot down or fodderized by Doomsday. Strange has to rely on luck, as he could be targeted by any of the 26 enemies actively seeking him out; there is no guarantee that he won't be hit. Cloning doesn't stop the fact that he has no way of hurting Doomsday and only inevitable.

Or better yet, thanks to knowing where Doomsday starts, Strange can easily put all the clones right in front of Doomsday, baiting him into using his heat vision (and knowing him he'll be standing still whilst using it), not knowing that the real Strange is right behind him, with a transmutation spell primed and ready to go.

In all seriousness, Doomsday would stop fighting the illusions once they disappeared (as any physical contact causes this.)

Bit too late at that point, since he'll be transmuted at that point.

This attack has no ranged capabilities

Not an issue if Strange gets right up in his backside.

It takes several seconds to charge and properly use

That's fine, just charge it during the last seconds of prep time.

We've never seen it work on living things He used it on a black hole. We don't even know if he can do this to anything other than similar, non-matter objects. Because Strange has never used it even on real matter, let alone a living, breathing organism, you can't assume that it work on Doomsday.

Any reason to suggest it'd work differently on normal beings beyond head-canon? Not like their's anything saying it wouldn't work.

Furthermore, attempting this on Doomsday will only result in one thing: Strange will die trying to attempt this. It takes several seconds to do this and requires that you touch the target. In trying to do this, Strange is risking a lot for a very questionable method of incapacitation.

Nah, he'll be safe behind him, whilst Doomsday's busy heat visioning all he clones.

The other issue is that Strange's clones clearly do the same thing at the same time, meaning that they are much easier to deflect and predictable in movement.

So long as they exist and DD can see them, they're serving their purpose (assuming he can even see past Loki's illusions which'd have even the clones protected, which he can't).

Surrounding Doomsday may not be the best choice either: R.I.P to the dozens of Stranges...

Nah, not only do the mirror dimension shields strange set up during rep will help protect him by bfring the projectiles, but I don't think DD will open with this, and for that let's look at some context as to why DD used this attack.

Loading Video...

See what's happening in this scene, DD's being surrounding by what looks to be about half a dozen helicopters, each unloading everything they have into him, DD being clearly angry and frustrated (even moreso than usual). This is simply a situation Strange won't put DD in, as all the clones will for all intents and purposes just be floating in the air, doing weird hand movements things, letting DD peacefully laser beam them all of them whilst the real deal transmutes him from behind.

It's also worth noting that DD needed to charge up the energy(?) in his body in order to get this attack of, even moreso than the time Strange's transmutation takes, so if DD does open with this, he's leaving himself as easy pickings.

Once last side note, tho you probably don't mind this too much, but this attack is taking Deadshot and your fodder down as collateral damage, so that in of itself is working against you (hell their's an argument to be made of DD getting distracted by the fresh meat right next to him and going after your own team first, giving Strange & Loki all the time in the world to do what they must).

We know he is bulletproof to handgun rounds, but not all guns are equal. 9-millimeter rounds don't even go through most of their victims, but rather stay inside them. There is a reason that a 5.56/.223 of an AR-15 and a 9 mm are vastly different. Assault rifle rounds are made to have increased piercing power, as they are meant to maim the target (which makes the enemy heal the soldier, leading to more money spent and more resources brought) and pierce body armor. Handgun rounds stay in the target instead of going through so that the victim stays down when it is hit. In the case of this battle, this means that Loki is going to feel Deadshot's AR-15 rounds much more than a normal bullet. Furthermore, there are 20ish mercs firing at him as well, and they have military grade armor-piercing rounds, which are MUCH more effective at going through tough materials (like, say, Loki's skull) than 9 mm rounds. If you still don't get it, here's a visual for you: Loki has no feats suggesting he can even remotely survive an armor-piercing round to the head. Once his illusion is disrupted by a bullet and his location is revealed, he will be dropped very quickly. It is also worth noting that the heavy machine guns on the trucks are MUCH stronger than assault rifle rounds and use MUCH heavier ammunition as well. (They can use .50 calibers, which pierce tanks and planes and cause people to explode.) So even if Loki can survive an assault rifle round (spoiler: he can't) then this will more than suffice.

This is all fair, but remember, Loki shrugged off that pistol more annoyed than hurt, and it was right in his head, so saying he could survive a tougher bullet isn't unfeasible (especially since his clothing is completely bulleproof to tougher bullets, meaning a head-shot or the highest level guns all but required).

Thor 1
Thor 1

This is all assuming they can see through the illusions, and even if they did see through, Loki being able to pole dance around the supersonic Thor means that Loki has the speeds to dodge through bullets should it be required. And again, speed is equal, so you claiming they can't dodge bullets means you can't ever, so like hell are you dodging Strange's point blank transmutation. Not sure why I'm even showing speed feats tbh.

That's not possible, there is an infinite amount. They know SOME of the outcomes. The more they know, the more confusing and stressful the battle is.

Nope, it's hardly infinite, their's only so many ways this battle can go, with only so many reactions, and Strange sees all of them.

Illusions are good easily disrupted (unless you can prove otherwise?)

Like to think that I did.

and mirror dimension shields are stationary and work both ways. The shields will stop your attacks AND mine, and they are limited in their range. If Strange decides to move too much, the shield is useless. It doesn't follow him and can only go forwards, we don't know if it can even stay in one place. The shields will work if the team wants to sit their and wait, but that's just delaying the inevitable.

Good thing Strange and Loki will be focused on close ranged combat in this scenario, the mirrors are placed anywhere and everywhere, and my team are already aware of where the mirrors are, whilst your team know nothing.

I addressed this.

As did I.

How The Fight Plays Out/Conclusion:

Honestly, not much has changed since my opener, but let's go down how the fight will play out, to show how I will certainly win this bout.

First, let's start about before the battle starts, Strange has seen everything your team can do and what they are most likely to start off with, and thus he & Loki know exactly what to do in order to secure a quick and easy victory, and so he can set up his clones accordingly, as can Loki with his Illusions.

No Caption Provided

Now under most scenarios without prep, this is what the general battlefield will roughly look like (not to scale obviously), but thanks to prep, it'll look more like this:

No Caption Provided

See the big difference here? Your team will be distracted by the hoard of Strange and Loki's causing a scene, whilst the real ones (still covered up by the illusion tho) will be right behind you. Of course,Strange & Loki know to do this because of prep, and will have their methods of assassination primed and ready.

And from that point on, I think you know the rest. Since Strange is right behind DD, it will take only a second for him to instantly turn him into butterflies, with no time for DD to react, due to the incredibly close distance, the lack of prior knowledge, the lack of speed required due to lack of a speed gap and the army of illusions and clones staring him down (whilst the clones copy Strange's every move and won't reach DD himself, so long as he gets DD and Floyd's attention it works fine. You can run, you can't hide, you can only stare at the army whilst the man behind the scenes turns you into a harmless little fly.

And as for Floyd and the fodder, with DD gone in a matter of a second, It gives Strange & Loki to immediately dog-pile them with clones, incredibly powerful means of KOing/killing and general physical superiority, which as stated previously, I can into detail in my next post should it be needed. Of course, Loki will be stabbing Floyd in the back first chance he gets, so you ace player is down for the count with the snap of a finger.

And with that, the fight ends, a quick match, but one that ends in my favour.

In the end, you may hit harder and take more hits (at least in terms of normal durability), but in this case, the brains will defeat the brawn.

Tl;Dr:

  1. Strange one-shots DD the moment the fight starts, with no hope of him escaping
  2. Loki & Strange can double up on the fodder and Floyd, ripping them to shreds at close range
  3. This entire fight your team will be stuck seeing illusions with no hope to escape
  4. Even if you do somehow find where my members are, Strange's mirrors block any attack you can throw at me, keeping my duo nice and safe
  5. Ultimately, don't see many avenues where you win this

How this fight really goes:

I can play this game too :).
I can play this game too :).
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#21 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2658 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Subline (8424 posts) - - Show Bio

Dammit y'all are posting so fast.

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#23 Edited by Chronicplane (9203 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2658 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4171 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4171 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps:

Counters

Before I address things chronologically, let's counter some of your main points again.

Illusions:

Nah, it'll do nothing but good, and all Loki needs to do is setup his Illusions, keep them up, then he can run off and do whatever he wants really, Strange can handle the rest solo. Obviously he won't be doing nothing, he'll be cleaning up the fodder whilst the good Doctor deals with DD, but you can hopefully see my point. Loki can't screw up cause their's nothing really to screw up.

Avengers
Avengers

As far as attacking whilst using Illusions go, this scan is pretty self-explanatory, he can fight back just fine and blend in with he rest of illusions being thrown around.

Thor: The Dark World
Thor: The Dark World

And this scan directly debunks that the illusions disappear after touch, again pretty self-explanatory. It's more accurate to say Loki has an 'On and Off' button for his illusions (heck we can even see that the illusions can affect the real world via how the rocks fall off the cliff), unless hit with an incredibly hard attack like Thor's lightning (which only DD can replicate, unless we're claiming regular guns=Thor's lightning, which I doubt).

The gif you used was clearly supposed to be Loki intentionally turning the illusion off to screw around with Odinson, so it's not really that apt of a comparison.

While this does prove that illusions will not be disrupted physically, there is still a clear effect that is visually shown when the illusions are physically disrupted. This is very obvious and indicates to my team that the Loki's are not real.

Furthermore, he illusions themselves have not shown that they can hurt people. Loki may be able to while his illusions are up, but in doing so he reveals his true location, which would become the first priority for the rest of my team (minus Doomsday.) Loki would be quickly gunned down once the team members realized that he was behind them, meaning that they would notice him fairly quickly. Loki has not displayed the capability of stealth required to silently kill all of my members without being attacked, nor has he displayed the ability to attack while invisible. These two factors ensure that he cannot take down an entire squad of armed gunmen that have the firepower available to kill him.

This is all fair, but remember, Loki shrugged off that pistol more annoyed than hurt, and it was right in his head, so saying he could survive a tougher bullet isn't unfeasible (especially since his clothing is completely bulleproof to tougher bullets, meaning a head-shot or the highest level guns all but required).

My team won't have a problem landing headshots, especially if Loki intends on taking the fight into close range. Deadshot himself can effortlessly headshot Loki, and the mercs themselves have been shown to be highly skilled and effective, even able to take on Batman himself. (More on their feats later.)

and it was right in his head, so saying he could survive a tougher bullet isn't unfeasible

And no, you can't just assume that characters are able to do things that they haven't shown themselves to do. There are bulletproof vests that can effortlessly withstand a pistol round and still get ripped to shreds by armor-piercing bullets. Loki doesn't even come close to tanking these bullets.

This is all assuming they can see through the illusions, and even if they did see through, Loki being able to pole dance around the supersonic Thor means that Loki has the speeds to dodge through bullets should it be required.

This is just false. First off, Thor has NEVER shown supersonic combat speed. He has been able to dodge and block hypersonic energy blasts on occasion, but this has never even come close to translating to his attacks being even close to that. In that gif, Thor swings his hammer and runs at Loki. His hammer strikes and running speeds are peak human at best and nothing indicates otherwise; dodging a bullet does not equal punching or running at hundreds or thousands of miles per hour. Even then, Thor dodged big, bright beams of light, which are easy to spot and defend against compared to small bullets that can barely be seen through the air. Nothing indicates that Thor can perceive these energy blasts so slow that he can also perceive tiny bullets, and Loki is clearly even worse than Thor in this department.

Thor runs at Loki. He can run at supersonic speeds. If he could, then the movie would have certainly made him travel faster than a speedy jog here.
Thor runs at Loki. He can run at supersonic speeds. If he could, then the movie would have certainly made him travel faster than a speedy jog here.

And again, speed is equal, so you claiming they can't dodge bullets means you can't ever,

The problem with this (for you at least) is that Loki and Strange don't have any attacks even a regular human couldn't dodge.

so like hell are you dodging Strange's point blank transmutation. Not sure why I'm even showing speed feats tbh.

Strange's transmutation is rather slow.

No Caption Provided

It takes him nearly two seconds to fully enact the spell. While that doesn't sound like much, this means everything in a fight. Regular human reaction times are 0.25 seconds and slower, meaning that Doomsday will have ample time to defend against this even if he is dumbed down in speed.

While we are on the topic of transmutation...

Any reason to suggest it'd work differently on normal beings beyond head-canon? Not like their's anything saying it wouldn't work.

You see, it isn't headcanon, because nothing says that it would work. You can only assume that characters can do certain things in battles when they either have

  1. Previously showcased the capability to work in a certain way, or
  2. Have an ability that is well-defined and has clear limits, and
  3. Have used the ability on a similar object/person, etc.

So with most physical attacks and actions characters only need feats that are high-level. Luke Cage doesn't need to show that he can tank a knife if he has shown that he can bullets because one is obviously higher than the other. Similarly, we don't have to assume that he can't kill a rabbit just because he hasn't done so previously, because we know that punches and the types of force that Luke can exert will work on any living thing and that rabbits will die to such levels of force. While I seem to be overcomplicated a very simple notion, it is very important to understand that magic does not work this way. Why?

Because magic, first of all, does not exist in any fathomable way in the real world. This is not the same as superpowers, because when an individual has a unique set of superpowers, they are generally well-defined and also do things that we can fathom or utilize things that actually exist. Energy powers and electricity powers use real things that actually exist (Carol's photon blasts, for example, are light-speed because that's what photons are.)

Magic is not specific, but often involves a very broad set of abilities. Therefore you can't assume anything about these abilities except what has been shown to you, and this transmutation instance is very vague about how it works.

  • Black holes are intense fields of gravity caused by extremely dense types of matter. That means that a black hole itself is not made of matter, and so they are literally just energy and gravity. That means Strange transmuted energy and gravity into butterflies. He didn't even transmute matter at all.
  • Even if he was able to transmute matter into what he wanted, that still doesn't mean he can transmute living things. While living things are basically matter in real life, Marvel puts far more emphasis on life. Astral forms are a concept in the MCU, meaning that life in the MCU has distinct differences than in the real world. Moreover, the soul stone indicates that souls exist in all living things (Red Skull's "a soul for a soul" shows how at least people have souls in Marvel, and it is very likely that other creatures also do; allow me to explain)
  • Thanos needed all 6 stones to kill half of the universe (don't worry, no Endgame spoilers here.) The reason that the stones don't overlap and the reality stone doesn't do everything is because each stone his it's "niche." Each stone controls certain aspects of the universe (and they represent these aspects as well, GotG makes this clear) and so the stones can ONLY affect the things under the domain of their respective stone. Notice how the power, space, time, mind, and reality stones are all physical/scientific in nature? That's because the soul stone deals with the magical elements of life: people's souls. Thanos couldn't snap away all of life without the soul stone because all life has a soul. Not only has Kevin Feige himself admitted it, but it was stated several times across the movie (IW) that Thanos intended to kill 50% of all life in the universe. This confirms the idea that all life has a soul, and complicates things. This is because the transmutation of an object is FAR different than the transmutation of a living, breathing, moving thing with a soul. According to Infinity War, you can't kill someone without killing their soul, meaning that Strange's transmutation would also have to work on souls, otherwise it would prove to be utterly ineffective.

So, not only has Strange never shown his transmutation to work on matter itself, (and instead only on energy and gravity) he also cannot use it on souls. Both matter and souls are completely different than energy and gravity in fundamental ways. However, at least matter exists physically. Souls do not and are magical in nature. To assume that Strange can transmute life when he hasn't shown such an ability requires immense and nonsensical leaps in logic; he hasn't displayed that he can, so he can't.

Alright. Now that the essential points have been covered, I'll go chronologically.

None of which are helping with the task of dealing with illusions, and will either be caught in the mirror dimension shields, or they'll be shooting nothing but air.

Excuse me? You are criminally underselling Dodge RAM pick up trucks here.

Even besides that, the illusions will visually change upon being shot, enough to be noticeable. The mercs can observe and once they realize that the real Loki is behind them Loki is going to be destroyed easily.

Do they even have anything beyond vague statements that'd mean anything in regards of how deadly they are? Cause going purely by feats, they have absolutely nothing worth a damn beyond getting smacked up by Batman, who himself really doesn't have anything impressive beyond this fight iirc, so it's a weird paradox of un-impressiveness.

First of all, the mercenaries are clearly skilled and so is Batman. This is made clear through choreography alone.

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However, what is important isn't the thugs' hand to hand skill, but their proficiency with firearms.

Several thugs in the clip above were able to tag Batman multiple times. It is worth noting that many of these were headshots and that Batman was a swift and difficult to hit target.

Furthermore, the thugs, in the beginning, were able to hit the Batwing, which moved at hundreds of miles per hour, from across the bay with a heavy machine gun.

It is also worth noting that Lex Luthor (a billionaire with vast resources) hired these men specifically to guard Martha Kent against Superman himself. It is not a stretch in the least to suggest that these mercs would be extremely proficient marksmen and hand-to-hand assailants, especially considering Lex's intellect.

If I take out Deadshot, the fodder goes with him, and Loki can solo them all just fine (more on that during the counters section).

Doubt this highly. Not only does the fodder have .50 cal machine guns that will most definitely pierce his armor (since they pierce planes, bulletproof glass, and industrial steel.)

I address Loki's speed at a later point in this debate, but Strange certainly has supersonic speeds.

Excuse me?

No Caption Provided

His ability to react too and block attacks from Thanos (the same guy who smacked up Hulk, the monster who scales at worst equal to the Mach 2 Abomination. Keep in mind Hulk only tagged Thanos via a surprise attack) should give him the supersonic speeds needed to block/avoid the bullets just fine, especially since Deadshot hasn't hit anything moving at supersonic speeds iirc (both the feats you showed where on stationary targets).

Those are insane leaps in logic, again. ABC logic rarely works at all, and it definitely doesn't work here. Let's break this down step-by-step.

His ability to react too and block attacks from Thanos the same guy who smacked up Hulk, the monster who scales at worst equal to the Mach 2 Abomination.

Okay, there are clear differences between reaction, combat, and travel speed. Reaction speeds are how fast characters can perceive an incoming attack, and they are not the same as combat speeds. Combat speed incorporates reaction speed, but, once again, punches and kicks are not as fast as reaction speeds.

Here's a real-life example:

Pro-boxers can punch at speeds of roughly 25 miles per hour. Meanwhile, the world record for punch speed is 43 miles per hour. However, MLB players can bat baseballs that clock anywhere from 80-105 mph. Punching is not equal to reacting to a fast projectile at all.

However, it only gets worse once you see that Thanos used a pushing kick against Strange, which is far slower than a punch.

Keep in mind Hulk only tagged Thanos via a surprise attack)

Hulk may have fought opponents with high reaction speeds, but he doesn't even have the same feats and furthermore clearly does not punch at those speeds. The string of logic doesn't work at all.

  1. Abombination caught a missile
  2. Hulk fought and dodged Abombination
  3. Hulk fought Thanos, who dodged Hulk
  4. Strange fought Thanos, would blocked Hulk

There are too many variables between all these scenarios in the first place, and at the end of the day, none of their attacks equal anything close to supersonic.

should give him the supersonic speeds needed to block/avoid the bullets just fine, especially since Deadshot hasn't hit anything moving at supersonic speeds iirc (both the feats you showed where on stationary targets).

Deadshot can also decimate moving targets if you were wondering:

Also you have speed equalized, so ultimately, if I ain't bullet timers, neither are you, but I'll just put feats here for the sake of answering the question in need of an answer here.

Again, this argument is moot because your team has no ranged attacks that come close to that speed.

Won't help against illusions.

But it will help him see that enemies are being disrupted by the bullets, leading him to believe that they are not real. This matters little, however, since the team will decimate Loki once they realize that he's actually attacking from behind.

Not before it enters a CQC scenario, which Loki greatly dominates in and would stomp Floyd within due to way superior strength, durability, gear and skill (I can go into detail next post).

Except he can't possibly hope to be able to kill Deadshot, or any merc, without getting spotting and having a hailstorm of bullets tear him apart.

I'll be skipping over durability as you showed nothing for transmutation (the way I intend to take you down)

I suggest you recheck that section since it proves that nothing in Loki and Strange's arsenal can even make Doomsday flinch and I've already proved that transmuting Doomsday isn't possible.

I will also going to ignore strength/heat damage as I'll admit that Loki & Strange can't last long against DD's damage potential, but they aren't getting hit at all thanks to DD's non-existent outs to illusions.

Doomsday will tag them eventually, and Strange can't hide forever. Getting close to Doomsday, even for a second, is a death wish. Keeping your distance just results in a fiery death.

Fortunately, Morals Off for Strange means I don't have to worry about any pesky in-character arguments getting in the way.

Lmao I forgot about that my bad.

It still effectively gives the duo full knowledge on everything your team can throw at them and where you will start in the battle (since that part won't change no matter what), and can position themselves accordingly, something I admittedly forgot to bring up in my opener, but something that will also make transmuting DD incredibly easy.

Fair point. However, I don't see any possible situation that includes Doomsday's defeat, as they literally can't surpass his durability.

Well their's not much to really remember tbh. Since you don't have prep Loki and Strange will know exactly where you spawn, it's all pretty much a matter of positioning and knowing that transmutation will work wonders.

Either way, they can't transmute Doomsday, so they literally just make it quicker by bringing themselves right to their deaths.

Uh, where is this coming from? In IW, Strange looked into every timeline he could, and to say he just stopped the moment he found a winning solution is pure head canon, so unless I'm missing something, you're gonna need sources to back up your claim.

Hell, Strange even says in the video I linked "To see all the possible outcomes of the coming conflict.", and he has absolutely no reason to lie/hyperbole about this, so not only is what you're saying is head-canon, but it's also contradicted by what Strange says here.

I just assumed, because in reality there is an infinite amount of possibilities with every situation. Strange would have had to stop eventually, but the possibilities are literally endless because of every possible slight variation that leads to another, and another, etc.

No need to argue semantics, however. This doesn't change the outcome at all.

But they do know what is the most likely to happen. We know DD doesn't open with spamming AOE shockwaves, for example (more on that later),

True; I outlined that the shockwaves only occur when he is healing or adapting.

so we can always make very educated guesses based on where Strange places the clones, as well as with Loki's illusions.

Fair.

Nah, it'll do nothing but good, and all Loki needs to do is setup his Illusions, keep them up, then he can run off and do whatever he wants really, Strange can handle the rest solo. Obviously he won't be doing nothing, he'll be cleaning up the fodder whilst the good Doctor deals with DD, but you can hopefully see my point. Loki can't screw up cause their's nothing really to screw up.

On the contrary. Loki needs to take down Deadshot and the mercs because if he doesn't he AND Strange die. Strange can't afford to have to deal with a hailstorm of bullets (and Deadshot wouldn't miss) and Doomsday all at once.

The transmutation arguments were pretty repetitive but this one does have an exception:

Nah, he'll be safe behind him, whilst Doomsday's busy heat visioning all he clones.

The problem is that Doomsday has super-hearing, being a Kryptonian and all, meaning that he'd hear Strange behind him and kill him pretty instantly.

Nah, not only do the mirror dimension shields strange set up during rep will help protect him by bfring the projectiles, but I don't think DD will open with this, and for that let's look at some context as to why DD used this attack.

Loading Video...

See what's happening in this scene, DD's being surrounding by what looks to be about half a dozen helicopters, each unloading everything they have into him, DD being clearly angry and frustrated (even moreso than usual). This is simply a situation Strange won't put DD in, as all the clones will for all intents and purposes just be floating in the air, doing weird hand movements things, letting DD peacefully laser beam them all of them whilst the real deal transmutes him from behind.

Not really noteworthy since I established that it is based on healing and adaption.

However, that is important if Strange decides to attack Doomsday, because he adapts (or tries to) whenever he encounters a new method of attack. This means that any magic will be seen as different and result in a deadly evolution wave that decimates all of the land for miles. While I'm not arguing that Doomsday can adapt to anything (NLFs are pretty dumb) I am suggesting that anything that doesn't instantly kill him will result in an AoE attack of annihilation as Doomsday attempts to adapt to the new substance.

It's also worth noting that DD needed to charge up the energy(?) in his body in order to get this attack of, even moreso than the time Strange's transmutation takes, so if DD does open with this, he's leaving himself as easy pickings.

False, it instantly affects the area around him once it starts. That wasn't him charging energy, it was him absorbing the incoming attacks, which resulted in adaption. Other waves were pretty instantaneous, like the one following the nuke and the one following the slicing of his arm.

Once last side note, tho you probably don't mind this too much, but this attack is taking Deadshot and your fodder down as collateral damage, so that in of itself is working against you

That's what the Dodge RAMs are for: driving away.

(hell their's an argument to be made of DD getting distracted by the fresh meat right next to him and going after your own team first, giving Strange & Loki all the time in the world to do what they must).

I don't see this as something that would even be allowed in this situation since the characters on the team would be REQUIRED to team up against the other team. However, Doomsday can still solo everybody here (including the fodder) 10/10 times.

Nope, it's hardly infinite, their's only so many ways this battle can go, with only so many reactions, and Strange sees all of them.

Not at all. There are an infinite amount of random thoughts, slight changes in actions, environmental effects, mistakes, etc. that can change the battle. Furthermore, the timing of these can change, even further distorting everything. With a butterfly effect, this will lead to an infinite amount of results existing.

Honestly, not much has changed since my opener, but let's go down how the fight will play out, to show how I will certainly win this bout.

First, let's start about before the battle starts, Strange has seen everything your team can do and what they are most likely to start off with, and thus he & Loki know exactly what to do in order to secure a quick and easy victory, and so he can set up his clones accordingly, as can Loki with his Illusions.

Now under most scenarios without prep, this is what the general battlefield will roughly look like (not to scale obviously), but thanks to prep, it'll look more like this:

See the big difference here? Your team will be distracted by the hoard of Strange and Loki's causing a scene, whilst the real ones (still covered up by the illusion tho) will be right behind you. Of course,Strange & Loki know to do this because of prep, and will have their methods of assassination primed and ready.

And from that point on, I think you know the rest. Since Strange is right behind DD, it will take only a second for him to instantly turn him into butterflies, with no time for DD to react, due to the incredibly close distance, the lack of prior knowledge, the lack of speed required due to lack of a speed gap and the army of illusions and clones staring him down (whilst the clones copy Strange's every move and won't reach DD himself, so long as he gets DD and Floyd's attention it works fine. You can run, you can't hide, you can only stare at the army whilst the man behind the scenes turns you into a harmless little fly.

Doomsday can't be transmuted, and so you're entire argument falls apart.

And as for Floyd and the fodder, with DD gone in a matter of a second, It gives Strange & Loki to immediately dog-pile them with clones, incredibly powerful means of KOing/killing and general physical superiority, which as stated previously, I can into detail in my next post should it be needed. Of course, Loki will be stabbing Floyd in the back first chance he gets, so you ace player is down for the count with the snap of a finger.

The issue is that Doomsday won't die and that every member of my team has the ability to destroy your members in seconds.

And with that, the fight ends, a quick match, but one that ends in my favour.

In the end, you may hit harder and take more hits (at least in terms of normal durability), but in this case, the brains will defeat the brawn.

Tl;Dr:

  1. Strange one-shots DD the moment the fight starts, with no hope of him escaping
  2. Loki & Strange can double up on the fodder and Floyd, ripping them to shreds at close range
  3. This entire fight your team will be stuck seeing illusions with no hope to escape
  4. Even if you do somehow find where my members are, Strange's mirrors block any attack you can throw at me, keeping my duo nice and safe
  5. Ultimately, don't see many avenues where you win this

Without any method of winning, Strange and Loki can only resort to illusions and clones to delay their inevitable downfall. Doomsday can fly around and eventually he will find them and kill them. Seeing as they can't dodge heat vision or bullets and can't get close to him, this battle is fairly straightforward. Here are the possible timelines that Strange is going to see:

  1. Deadshot shoots him in the head once the illusion/clone ruse is up.
  2. Doomsday's HV burns them
  3. Doomsday adapts and his wave destroys everyone
  4. Doomsday smacks them
  5. Doomsday flies around, waits, and then smacks them once he finds them
  6. The mercs shoot them eventually
  7. They get run over by Dodge RAMs while Doomsday dances in the back.
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#28 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4171 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by DarkDementor101 (366 posts) - - Show Bio

That was a good counter post!

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#30 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2658 posts) - - Show Bio

Closer: Brain vs Brawn

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While this does prove that illusions will not be disrupted physically, there is still a clear effect that is visually shown when the illusions are physically disrupted. This is very obvious and indicates to my team that the Loki's are not real.

At which point it'd already be too late. Not to mention that how would they know they're Illusions immediately and not, for example, intangible? Their's too many variables beyond illusions that limits the chances of just going "Oh, they're illusions, where the real one at?", especially without experience facing an opponent like Loki. What'd be most likely is that they'd be distraught and fall into a panic, especially since the illusions will be essentially right on top of them thanks to my prep.

Plus the fodder don't exactly strike me as particularly smart, so I find it unlikely that they'd piece the puzzle together immediately like you think they can.

Furthermore, the illusions themselves have not shown that they can hurt people. Loki may be able to while his illusions are up, but in doing so he reveals his true location, which would become the first priority for the rest of my team (minus Doomsday.) Loki would be quickly gunned down once the team members realized that he was behind them, meaning that they would notice him fairly quickly.

Assuming they didn't waste all there bullets on the illusions, by that point Deadshot's already stabbed in the back and the rest of the fodder get mopped up quite quickly, still panicking and grossly out-stated.

Loki has not displayed the capability of stealth required to silently kill all of my members without being attacked, nor has he displayed the ability to attack while invisible. These two factors ensure that he cannot take down an entire squad of armed gunmen that have the firepower available to kill him.

Actually, Loki technically has shown the ability to attack whilst invisible.

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Let's look back at the context of the scene where Loki kills Coulson, but I ask you to pay attention to Thor. Throughout that exchange, Thor was looking directly at Coulson, without any room for Loki for sneak up or do use any fancy tricks. For all intents and purposes, he was invisible before he stabbed Coulson, so their's no reason to suggest he couldn't do the same here.

Also you gotta consider that once Strange is done with his 1 second kill (we'll get to him later), he'll immediately back up Loki with his own clones and long range options, so not only would your team still be distracted by Loki and his illusions, but Strange can sick his 20+ clones on your mooks and have them KO your team on the spot with whips and other general ranged options.

My team won't have a problem landing headshots, especially if Loki intends on taking the fight into close range. Deadshot himself can effortlessly headshot Loki, and the mercs themselves have been shown to be highly skilled and effective, even able to take on Batman himself. (More on their feats later.)

Thanks to the precog, Loki knows that Floyd is the first one to go, so he's dead in a second, even before the fodder. And I'll discuss Bats when you get to him, but Loki vastly outclasses him in just about every way.

And no, you can't just assume that characters are able to do things that they haven't shown themselves to do

We can if their's logic & evidence to support it.

.There are bulletproof vests that can effortlessly withstand a pistol round and still get ripped to shreds by armor-piercing bullets. Loki doesn't even come close to tanking these bullets.

Eh, to say he gets one-shot still seems a bit off to me, especially if they go for the Armour, which as I've mentioned can take higher level bullets. But either way, the illusions will do more than enough to keep them busy whilst Loki mops through loads of them before they catch on. And again, Strange will be joining Loki very quickly, so it's not like Loki will be riding solo for long.

This is just false. First off, Thor has NEVER shown supersonic combat speed. He has been able to dodge and block hypersonic energy blasts on occasion, but this has never even come close to translating to his attacks being even close to that. In that gif, Thor swings his hammer and runs at Loki. His hammer strikes and running speeds are peak human at best and nothing indicates otherwise; dodging a bullet does not equal punching or running at hundreds or thousands of miles per hour. Even then, Thor dodged big, bright beams of light, which are easy to spot and defend against compared to small bullets that can barely be seen through the air. Nothing indicates that Thor can perceive these energy blasts so slow that he can also perceive tiny bullets, and Loki is clearly even worse than Thor in this department.

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Also I guess at this point I should bring this up and say that thanks to your own speed equalized perk, both Loki & Strange are as fast as Doomsday, who unless you wanna lowball him to the maximum levels possible, is way faster than bullets, so my duo still can't even really be tagged by what you fire.

I could debunk that Thor lowball, but quite frankly I don't need, since you've effectively killed yourself with this perk choice.

The problem with this (for you at least) is that Loki and Strange don't have any attacks even a regular human couldn't dodge.

What? I mean yeah, by definition, but you need speed beyond peak humans in order to not be tagged by either of my duo's attacks, considering ones superhuman in of itself, whilst the others magic was fast enough to where Thanos couldn't counteract it.

Strange's transmutation is rather slow. It takes him nearly two seconds to fully enact the spell. While that doesn't sound like much, this means everything in a fight. Regular human reaction times are 0.25 seconds and slower, meaning that Doomsday will have ample time to defend against this even if he is dumbed down in speed.

I already debunked this, the spell can be charged during prep, removing the waiting period.

You see, it isn't headcanon, because nothing says that it would work. You can only assume that characters can do certain things in battles when they either have Previously showcased the capability to work in a certain way, or Have an ability that is well-defined and has clear limits, and Have used the ability on a similar object/person, etc.

There also has to be a sign of anything that would be altered when applied to a different object, which we'll get to.

So with most physical attacks and actions characters only need feats that are high-level. Luke Cage doesn't need to show that he can tank a knife if he has shown that he can bullets because one is obviously higher than the other. Similarly, we don't have to assume that he can't kill a rabbit just because he hasn't done so previously, because we know that punches and the types of force that Luke can exert will work on any living thing and that rabbits will die to such levels of force. While I seem to be overcomplicated a very simple notion, it is very important to understand that magic does not work this way. Why? Because magic, first of all, does not exist in any fathomable way in the real world. This is not the same as superpowers, because when an individual has a unique set of superpowers, they are generally well-defined and also do things that we can fathom or utilize things that actually exist. Energy powers and electricity powers use real things that actually exist (Carol's photon blasts, for example, are light-speed because that's what photons are.). Magic is not specific, but often involves a very broad set of abilities. Therefore you can't assume anything about these abilities except what has been shown to you, and this transmutation instance is very vague about how it works.

OK then, sure, but what would that change? Just because it doesn't adhere to the rules of reality doesn't change that what you're doing is making up rules that the transmutation has never been shown to have before.

Black holes are intense fields of gravity caused by extremely dense types of matter. That means that a black hole itself is not made of matter, and so they are literally just energy and gravity. That means Strange transmuted energy and gravity into butterflies. He didn't even transmute matter at all.

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A good thing then that Strange has transmuted matter before, as seen here in Ragnarok (water and glass would certainly count), so this has been promptly debunked. Unless you wanna say "He's never done it on living beings/skin", which is pretty silly for fairly obvious reasons.

Even if he was able to transmute matter into what he wanted, that still doesn't mean he can transmute living things. While living things are basically matter in real life, Marvel puts far more emphasis on life. Astral forms are a concept in the MCU, meaning that life in the MCU has distinct differences than in the real world. Moreover, the soul stone indicates that souls exist in all living things (Red Skull's "a soul for a soul" shows how at least people have souls in Marvel, and it is very likely that other creatures also do; allow me to explain) Thanos needed all 6 stones to kill half of the universe (don't worry, no Endgame spoilers here.) The reason that the stones don't overlap and the reality stone doesn't do everything is because each stone his it's "niche." Each stone controls certain aspects of the universe (and they represent these aspects as well, GotG makes this clear) and so the stones can ONLY affect the things under the domain of their respective stone. Notice how the power, space, time, mind, and reality stones are all physical/scientific in nature? That's because the soul stone deals with the magical elements of life: people's souls. Thanos couldn't snap away all of life without the soul stone because all life has a soul. Not only has Kevin Feige himself admitted it, but it was stated several times across the movie (IW) that Thanos intended to kill 50% of all life in the universe. This confirms the idea that all life has a soul, and complicates things. This is because the transmutation of an object is FAR different than the transmutation of a living, breathing, moving thing with a soul.According to Infinity War, you can't kill someone without killing their soul, meaning that Strange's transmutation would also have to work on souls, otherwise it would prove to be utterly ineffective. So, not only has Strange never shown his transmutation to work on matter itself, (and instead only on energy and gravity) he also cannot use it on souls. Both matter and souls are completely different than energy and gravity in fundamental ways. However, at least matter exists physically. Souls do not and are magical in nature. To assume that Strange can transmute life when he hasn't shown such an ability requires immense and nonsensical leaps in logic; he hasn't displayed that he can, so he can't.

OK, so this can be debunked rather simply. The soul can quite frankly stay right where it is, so long as the body is destroyed (as you said, they aren't one in the same, so the body is still wide open for the pickings), it'd still count at worst as an Incap win.

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And for the record, Thanos has transmuted people and projectiles fine without the soul stone, so the whole "can't transmute people without the soul stone" falls right on it's face. Actually for that matter, why are you equalising the Stones with Dr. Strange's magic, they are 2 separate things with clearly different rules and systems. Thanos also wasn't trying to kill the Guardians in this situation (it's why he reverted them back top normal), so before you bring up that they didn't actually die, their's a reason for that.

Another thing, would Doomsday even have a soul? He's an artificial monster created by Lex Luthor born from a dead Kryptonian, so I'm not even sure he'd even count as a 'living being'. And btw, I don't need transmutation for the fodder, a couple slaps from Strange's whips will do fine.

Excuse me? You are criminally underselling Dodge RAM pick up trucks here.

Nothing Loki can't just either trick with the illusions, rendering them helpless. Nor are they anything Strange can't deal with.

Avengers
Avengers

It's not like Loki doesn't have the skills with his knives, as shown here in order to hit the wheels, causing it to spill out of control and possibly hit some collateral damage. Also your perk makes Loki more than fast enough to get out of the way.

Even besides that, the illusions will visually change upon being shot, enough to be noticeable. The mercs can observe and once they realize that the real Loki is behind them Loki is going to be destroyed easily.

Already addressed. How would they know they are Illusions specifically? For all they know, they would just be intangible, and their's nothing to suggest they'd immediately identify them as illusions.

First of all, the mercenaries are clearly skilled and so is Batman. This is made clear through choreography alone.

Not really, most of the thugs were getting 1-2 shotted, and Bats isn't nearly as strong to be anywhere near Loki's level.

Avengers
Avengers

Bats is never replicating the feat of no-selling a hit from Cap, sending him flying, all whilst holding his own in skill, he simply doesn't have the feats, reputation nor the experience against opponents with actual feats to warrant it.

Let's put things into context, this is the guy who could easily dent cars in CW, take a load of abuse from Bucky's metal arm (which by itself has feats above what Bats has done) and fast/skilled enough to perform the now-famous elevator scene, which is way better than Cap fighting off those fodder for very clear reasons. Cap has always had Batman outclassed in every way, and Loki no-sold his attacks and fought back just fine, so quite frankly, A Batman level opponent is quite frankly fodder to Loki, let alone mooks who are fodder to the Bat.

However, what is important isn't the thugs' hand to hand skill, but their proficiency with firearms. Several thugs in the clip above were able to tag Batman multiple times. It is worth noting that many of these were headshots and that Batman was a swift and difficult to hit target. Furthermore, the thugs, in the beginning, were able to hit the Batwing, which moved at hundreds of miles per hour, from across the bay with a heavy machine gun.

Most of the headshots were when they were at point blank range, so it's not all that impressive, and the fight will already be in cqc from the very beginning, so having long range capabilities aren't necessary. Plus when hitting the batwing, the thing wasn't far from ground level and was clearly not going at full speeds, making it a much easier target to hit.

It is also worth noting that Lex Luthor (a billionaire with vast resources) hired these men specifically to guard Martha Kent against Superman himself. It is not a stretch in the least to suggest that these mercs would be extremely proficient marksmen and hand-to-hand assailants, especially considering Lex's intellect.

Shame they have nothing to back this up worth a damn beyond vague scaling to someone who's best skill feats com from these fights. As I've mentioned previously, a paradox of un-impressiveness.

Doubt this highly. Not only does the fodder have .50 cal machine guns that will most definitely pierce his armor (since they pierce planes, bulletproof glass, and industrial steel.)

They need to be able to hit him first through the speed and illusions first.

Excuse me? Those are insane leaps in logic, again. ABC logic rarely works at all, and it definitely doesn't work here. Let's break this down step-by-step.

Not gonna go through everything, but this'll fall under what I said previously about speed equalized. Unless you unironically think DD is below bullet speed (something I seriously doubt), then Loki and Strange can still dodge these bullets fine. I could counteract this, but tbh, I ain't worth the effort.

Deadshot can also decimate moving targets if you were wondering:

None of the feats you provided where moving anywhere near tagging Supersonic, or even FTE oppnnents, so my point stands.

Again, this argument is moot because your team has no ranged attacks that come close to that speed.

Well it's not like the fodder have any quantifiable speed feats of their own, and they'll have no idea that the projectiles will be coming (since, and I know I've said this before, but they've never faced someone like Strange), tagging them will still be a complete non-issue.

But it will help him see that enemies are being disrupted by the bullets, leading him to believe that they are not real. This matters little, however, since the team will decimate Loki once they realize that he's actually attacking from behind.

At that point it's too late. Loki will be already working on mopping the floor with your fodder with superior strength and skill, and Strange will also be done, so he can go to town with his whips, which your team can't handle considering their sheer numbers difference via clones and lack of knowledge.

Except he can't possibly hope to be able to kill Deadshot, or any merc, without getting spotting and having a hailstorm of bullets tear him apart.

They'll still be disorientated by the illusions, Loki can attack invisible as I've shown, and Strange will be right behind him (you'd have to find & kill the real Loki in not even a second if you want to avoid the fodder fighting Strange).

I suggest you recheck that section since it proves that nothing in Loki and Strange's arsenal can even make Doomsday flinch and I've already proved that transmuting Doomsday isn't possible.

Nah, it's possible, just that the soul (if he even has one) will remain, and unless you wanna say he can adapt to his entire body being transmuted (please don't, that's silly and we all know it), then it still counts as my victory no matter which way you slice it.

Doomsday will tag them eventually, and Strange can't hide forever. Getting close to Doomsday, even for a second, is a death wish. Keeping your distance just results in a fiery death.

He won't get the chance to fight.

Fair point. However, I don't see any possible situation that includes Doomsday's defeat, as they literally can't surpass his durability.

Except with transmutation.

Either way, they can't transmute Doomsday, so they literally just make it quicker by bringing themselves right to their deaths.

Already considered.

I just assumed, because in reality there is an infinite amount of possibilities with every situation. Strange would have had to stop eventually, but the possibilities are literally endless because of every possible slight variation that leads to another, and another, etc. No need to argue semantics, however. This doesn't change the outcome at all.

You assumed, and you were proven wrong.

True; I outlined that the shockwaves only occur when he is healing or adapting.

Which means he won't use it during this fight.

On the contrary. Loki needs to take down Deadshot and the mercs because if he doesn't he AND Strange die. Strange can't afford to have to deal with a hailstorm of bullets (and Deadshot wouldn't miss) and Doomsday all at once.

Doomsday gone in less than a second, so they can easily mop up the fodder as a duo without issue. Again, the bullets aren't tagging Loki or Strange considering I believe we both put DD at worst high-supersonic speeds.

The transmutation arguments were pretty repetitive but this one does have an exception: The problem is that Doomsday has super-hearing, being a Kryptonian and all, meaning that he'd hear Strange behind him and kill him pretty instantly.

He'd have to not only have the brainpower to stop and smell the roses instead of the threats right in front of him, as well proper blitz him kill Strange if you want to not be transmuted, which can't happen since Strange will be doing this the moment the fight starts and that speed is equal. Needless to say, I can't see something like this happening.

Not really noteworthy since I established that it is based on healing and adaption. However, that is important if Strange decides to attack Doomsday, because he adapts (or tries to) whenever he encounters a new method of attack. This means that any magic will be seen as different and result in a deadly evolution wave that decimates all of the land for miles. While I'm not arguing that Doomsday can adapt to anything (NLFs are pretty dumb) I am suggesting that anything that doesn't instantly kill him will result in an AoE attack of annihilation as Doomsday attempts to adapt to the new substance.

Well good thing the transmutation will kill him instantly, unless you wanna argue DD being able to regenerate with nothing but a soul left (that's what you'd have to do even if I subscribed to your idea of needing to destroy a soul), otherwise it's still a win for me via Incap.

False, it instantly affects the area around him once it starts. That wasn't him charging energy, it was him absorbing the incoming attacks, which resulted in adaption. Other waves were pretty instantaneous, like the one following the nuke and the one following the slicing of his arm.

My point still stands that DD only uses this kind of attack is used when he's being overwhelmed/Injured , which Strange's instant transmutation won't give him the time to even process that he's in any kid of danger.

That's what the Dodge RAMs are for: driving away.

Go ahead, run away, makes picking apart the ground soldiers even easier.

I don't see this as something that would even be allowed in this situation since the characters on the team would be REQUIRED to team up against the other team. However, Doomsday can still solo everybody here (including the fodder) 10/10 times.

Let's just say there's a reason prefect teamwork is a perk.

Not at all. There are an infinite amount of random thoughts, slight changes in actions, environmental effects, mistakes, etc. that can change the battle. Furthermore, the timing of these can change, even further distorting everything. With a butterfly effect, this will lead to an infinite amount of results existing.

Did you not see my counter post? Strange himself contradicts what you are saying here, their are a finite amount of timelines with only so many possibility, their just happens to be a metric assload of them, and Strange will see them all, as he had before.

Doomsday can't be transmuted, and so you're entire argument falls apart.

Nah, his body can still be transmuted fine, his soul will just be chilling in ghost space somewhere (if he even has one) as a worst case scenario.

The issue is that Doomsday won't die and that every member of my team has the ability to destroy your members in seconds.

Has to hit my duo first through clones, bfr shields and illusions first, and he will be removed from the equation.

Without any method of winning, Strange and Loki can only resort to illusions and clones to delay their inevitable downfall.

Nah, for reasons already stated

Deadshot shoots him in the head once the illusion/clone ruse is up.

My duo's faster than any bullet you can through at me.

Doomsday's HV burns them

The same ones Batman was dodging out of the way of? Yeah, especially with speed equalised and the defensive measures set up pre-battle, my team will be fine staying safe from these blasts.

Doomsday adapts and his wave destroys everyone

Won't get the chance to.

Doomsday smacks them

Has to find them first, at which point it's too late.

Doomsday flies around, waits, and then smacks them once he finds them

Strange can fly too, their's no escape.

The mercs shoot them eventually

Thanks to your perk, they are more than fast enough to avoid anything

They get run over by Dodge RAMs while Doomsday dances in the back.

They are both faster and Strange can fly (he can drag Loki into the air if he must).

Conclusion:

Let's go over my battle plan, one last time.

The Doomsday & prep part remains unchanged, Strange still has the ability to transmute him, and one-shot. Your only counter argument was that Strange can't kill someone because he needs to affect the soul, however not only is DD having a soul rather questionable, given his artificial nature, leaving DD as nothing but a soul with no body to regenerate to (his HF simply hasn't soon capabilities at that level). And Strange still has the means to defend himself via portals, whist his clones grant DD a distraction for him to be tricked by.

Speaking of tricks, Loki still stabs Floyd in the back, killing him on the spot and giving him no time to fight back due to him being grossly outclassed in both strength & skill, and as for the rest of your fodder, not only are they grossly outclassed in physicals, but this is were your own speed equalized perk bends you over and really screws ya, as the speed being equalized to Doomsday means that both of my members can definitely weave between any kind of gunfire you throw at them, and mop them up with knives and magic.

So to conclude, DD may be a big boy, but my duo has the hax, prep time, prior knowledge & toolkit to take you down. I'll admit I've been repeating a lot of things, but that's merely to emphasise how effective they will be.

To lazy to make a funny image lol. Let's just finish this
To lazy to make a funny image lol. Let's just finish this
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#32 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2658 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4171 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps:

Final Counters and Closing Post

Once again I will target the most important points before I head into the post chronologically.

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Yeah, if speed equalized is that powerful, then Deadshot and the 21 mercenaries are useless. Doomsday, however, can still effortlessly solo, as transmutation still doesn't work.

There also has to be a sign of anything that would be altered when applied to a different object, which we'll get to.

Not at all. You don't assume that an ability has no limits until they are shown; rather, you assume that whatever is shown is all that that ability can do until proven otherwise, especially with magic. So if Strange hasn't shown the ability to transmute matter, he can't until he displays this ability.

OK then, sure, but what would that change? Just because it doesn't adhere to the rules of reality doesn't change that what you're doing is making up rules that the transmutation has never been shown to have before.

I'm not making up rules at all. Rather, I'm stating that it is improper to assume that Strange's transmutation ability, which has appeared once and has only been shown to work on gravitational/high-energy forces, cannot affect matter, let alone a complex organism with a soul unless it has displayed this ability.

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A good thing then that Strange has transmuted matter before, as seen here in Ragnarok (water and glass would certainly count), so this has been promptly debunked. Unless you wanna say "He's never done it on living beings/skin", which is pretty silly for fairly obvious reasons.

Except this isn't transmutation. Remember all of the specific requirements that Strange needed before to transmute?

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

As you can see, transmutation requires physical contact, large shields, and about 2 seconds of hand gestures and sparkling lights. This spectacle was nowhere to be seen in the scene that you brought up. However, it goes deeper than that once you look into the context of the scene itself.

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Watch the video entirely; the context is extremely important. There is a common theme among the powers portrayed by Strange: teleportation.

  1. Strange teleports Loki into an endless void. Following this, a card pops onto the ground where he was. Now, sling rings are very consistent in the MCU: they are essentially two-way doors. This ring, however, was in a void, meaning there is no way that Strange could throw the card out from the portal unless he was in the void; I think it's safe to say that he wasn't. That means that Strange had to teleport the card to that location. This is the first time that Strange displays the ability.
  2. He teleports Thor several times. This is a recurring issue for Thor, in fact.

Finally, he replaces Thor's teacup with a mug of beer. Is this transmutation? Not even close. Not only have we already established that he has a tendency to teleport (especially in this scene,) but, as previously stated, the transmutation spell isn't activated at all. No lights, sparks, shields, or anything even close. Strange didn't even flinch to make it happen. The most likely thing that he actually did was "swap" the cup with the mug. This means that the cup still exists, but was teleported to another location, with the beer replacing it by being teleported seamlessly into Thor's hand.

However, this particular scene is extremely vague about how he does this in general. So while I don't think it is 100% safe to assume that it definitely was teleportation, it also isn't safe to just assume that it definitely was transmutation simply because it helps your argument. Because of how vague the scene is and because there is no record of displaying anything remotely similar to this in combat, I don't think it is a viable method to attack Doomsday at all and it definitely doesn't prove that Strange can transmute matter. This becomes especially evident when you view it from a plot-focused perspective. In Infinity War, Strange explicitly states that he would do anything to protect the time stone and save the universe, including allowing Tony, an innocent hero, to die (until the end because of the timelines...) If that was the case and he was able to transmute as easily as he did with Thor's cup, he could have easily dispatched Maw, Cull, and Thanos all at once. While the timelines cop-out might work for Thanos's instance (even though he'd have no way of escaping it) it doesn't explain why Strange didn't do it when Maw was actively threatening the security of the time stone.

It is worthing mentioning that Strange also refills Thor's beer, but this seems to be more teleportation or miscellaneous hax than transmuting oxygen into beer.

OK, so this can be debunked rather simply. The soul can quite frankly stay right where it is, so long as the body is destroyed (as you said, they aren't one in the same, so the body is still wide open for the pickings), it'd still count at worst as an Incap win.

While they aren't one in the same, they are tied to each other. A person's soul will continue to exist so long as their body is living, and neither the body nor the soul can die/disappear without the other being affected. Therefore, if you can't affect both, you can't affect either unless you kill the body physically. As far as the MCU is concerned, there seems to be no evidence that the soul lives on after death, but that is only involving physical death. Transmutation is a completely different story because the person doesn't die, they disappear entirely. To transmute someone with a soul, or otherwise kill them without using physical means, you would have to also destroy their soul. How do we know this?

As I said in previous posts, the Snap makes this pretty clear. The Collector makes it evident that the stones are "singularities" that control certain aspects of the universe. That is power, space, time, reality, mind, and soul. The power stone can affect most things physically but is limited to that time period and area that it is in until the space and time stones are introduced. The reality stone affects reality on a small scale until you amp it with the power stone and extend its range with the space stone. This continues for all the stones; they all tie together. We know this because in fight scenes this is made abundantly clear through the stones glowing. When Strange makes his clones and uses the bands on Thanos, Thanos uses the power and soul stones to detect the real Strange and disrupt the clones. When he pulls down the moon, he uses the power stone to break up rocks and the space stone to pull them down. The Snap required all 6 stones, meaning that all 6 had a place in destroying 50% of life. What would the soul stone be used for unless all of the life snapped away had some sort of soul? At the very least it was used to detect the souls of living beings and destroy both them and their physical bodies; dusting away unnaturally isn't a physical death, but a disappearance of sorts, meaning that the soul would still have been needed to be taken care of if the physical was to disappear; ergo, neither are affected in this case without the soul stone.

What does this mean? Two things: One, it shows us that transmutation would be impossible unless it could affect the soul as well. Two, it shows us that Doomsday indeed does have a soul, because all life has a soul. This was indicated by Kevin Feige himself, who admitted that 50% of all life died during the Snap, including plants and animals. If the Snap killed 50% of all life and all of the life killed had a soul as we've established, then Doomsday must have a soul himself regardless of his beast-like nature.

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And for the record, Thanos has transmuted people and projectiles fine without the soul stone, so the whole "can't transmute people without the soul stone" falls right on it's face.

You don't understand what transmutation is. In the scene, Thanos turns Drax into blocks of himself and Mantis into a stringed version of herself. Transmutation would be changing their chemical composition completely, as in turning Drax into cheese and Mantis into actual spaghetti. So Thanos never actually transmuted anyone until he obtained the soul stone.

Actually for that matter, why are you equalising the Stones with Dr. Strange's magic, they are 2 separate things with clearly different rules and systems.

I'm not "equalizing" them, I'm using the precedents that Infinity War has set on souls in the MCU as a metric in general. Unless you're implying that Dr. Strange's magic is more powerful than the universal infinity stones, then the limitations that the stones adhere to (they aren't specific to the stones at all, that is) should also apply to Dr. Strange's magic.

Thanos also wasn't trying to kill the Guardians in this situation (it's why he reverted them back top normal), so before you bring up that they didn't actually die, their's a reason for that.

He also never transmuted anybody before the Snap at all... Separating someone into different pieces of themselves isn't changing their chemical makeup. That's like saying that cutting ice into a thousand little pieces is transmutation or that cutting a dead rat in half is transmuting a rat. And them remaining alive doesn't change how they remained in their current chemical composition and state of matter.

Another thing, would Doomsday even have a soul? He's an artificial monster created by Lex Luthor born from a dead Kryptonian, so I'm not even sure he'd even count as a 'living being'. And btw, I don't need transmutation for the fodder, a couple slaps from Strange's whips will do fine.

Doomsday would absolutely have a soul. Not only is he a living, breathing creature, but there also are lower levels of artificial life that disappeared during the Snap. Groot, who grew from a stick of the burnt husk of his previous self, was dusted. Rocket, who is an experimental and artificial creature like Doomsday, was presumably vulnerable to the Snap. But, most importantly, half of all plants.

Now, plants are artificially fertilized, genetically altered, and overall severely changed all the time. Many crops themselves are GMOs, much like Doomsday is, and they themselves were not safe from the Snap.

So as it stands Strange still can't even transmute matter. Even if Doomsday had no soul, which he does, Strange still would have no win condition. Add the fact that transmutation becomes incredibly complex and downright impossible when you account for souls and it becomes clear that Strange can't turn Doomsday or anyone else into butterflies.

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While this does prove that illusions will not be disrupted physically, there is still a clear effect that is visually shown when the illusions are physically disrupted. This is very obvious and indicates to my team that the Loki's are not real.

At which point it'd already be too late. Not to mention that how would they know they're Illusions immediately and not, for example, intangible? Their's too many variables beyond illusions that limits the chances of just going "Oh, they're illusions, where the real one at?", especially without experience facing an opponent like Loki. What'd be most likely is that they'd be distraught and fall into a panic, especially since the illusions will be essentially right on top of them thanks to my prep.

Plus the fodder don't exactly strike me as particularly smart, so I find it unlikely that they'd piece the puzzle together immediately like you think they can.

Furthermore, the illusions themselves have not shown that they can hurt people. Loki may be able to while his illusions are up, but in doing so he reveals his true location, which would become the first priority for the rest of my team (minus Doomsday.) Loki would be quickly gunned down once the team members realized that he was behind them, meaning that they would notice him fairly quickly.

Assuming they didn't waste all there bullets on the illusions, by that point Deadshot's already stabbed in the back and the rest of the fodder get mopped up quite quickly, still panicking and grossly out-stated.

Loki has not displayed the capability of stealth required to silently kill all of my members without being attacked, nor has he displayed the ability to attack while invisible. These two factors ensure that he cannot take down an entire squad of armed gunmen that have the firepower available to kill him.

Actually, Loki technically has shown the ability to attack whilst invisible.

Let's look back at the context of the scene where Loki kills Coulson, but I ask you to pay attention to Thor. Throughout that exchange, Thor was looking directly at Coulson, without any room for Loki for sneak up or do use any fancy tricks. For all intents and purposes, he was invisible before he stabbed Coulson, so their's no reason to suggest he couldn't do the same here.

Also you gotta consider that once Strange is done with his 1 second kill (we'll get to him later), he'll immediately back up Loki with his own clones and long range options, so not only would your team still be distracted by Loki and his illusions, but Strange can sick his 20+ clones on your mooks and have them KO your team on the spot with whips and other general ranged options.

My team won't have a problem landing headshots, especially if Loki intends on taking the fight into close range. Deadshot himself can effortlessly headshot Loki, and the mercs themselves have been shown to be highly skilled and effective, even able to take on Batman himself. (More on their feats later.)

Thanks to the precog, Loki knows that Floyd is the first one to go, so he's dead in a second, even before the fodder. And I'll discuss Bats when you get to him, but Loki vastly outclasses him in just about every way.

And no, you can't just assume that characters are able to do things that they haven't shown themselves to do

We can if their's logic & evidence to support it.

.There are bulletproof vests that can effortlessly withstand a pistol round and still get ripped to shreds by armor-piercing bullets. Loki doesn't even come close to tanking these bullets.

Eh, to say he gets one-shot still seems a bit off to me, especially if they go for the Armour, which as I've mentioned can take higher level bullets. But either way, the illusions will do more than enough to keep them busy whilst Loki mops through loads of them before they catch on. And again, Strange will be joining Loki very quickly, so it's not like Loki will be riding solo for long.

This is just false. First off, Thor has NEVER shown supersonic combat speed. He has been able to dodge and block hypersonic energy blasts on occasion, but this has never even come close to translating to his attacks being even close to that. In that gif, Thor swings his hammer and runs at Loki. His hammer strikes and running speeds are peak human at best and nothing indicates otherwise; dodging a bullet does not equal punching or running at hundreds or thousands of miles per hour. Even then, Thor dodged big, bright beams of light, which are easy to spot and defend against compared to small bullets that can barely be seen through the air. Nothing indicates that Thor can perceive these energy blasts so slow that he can also perceive tiny bullets, and Loki is clearly even worse than Thor in this department.

Also I guess at this point I should bring this up and say that thanks to your own speed equalized perk, both Loki & Strange are as fast as Doomsday, who unless you wanna lowball him to the maximum levels possible, is way faster than bullets, so my duo still can't even really be tagged by what you fire.

I could debunk that Thor lowball, but quite frankly I don't need, since you've effectively killed yourself with this perk choice.

The problem with this (for you at least) is that Loki and Strange don't have any attacks even a regular human couldn't dodge.

What? I mean yeah, by definition, but you need speed beyond peak humans in order to not be tagged by either of my duo's attacks, considering ones superhuman in of itself, whilst the others magic was fast enough to where Thanos couldn't counteract it.

Strange's transmutation is rather slow. It takes him nearly two seconds to fully enact the spell. While that doesn't sound like much, this means everything in a fight. Regular human reaction times are 0.25 seconds and slower, meaning that Doomsday will have ample time to defend against this even if he is dumbed down in speed.

I already debunked this, the spell can be charged during prep, removing the waiting period.

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To make this easier on the reader and myself, I've condensed many of the Deadshot+mercenary counters into one blob, and well as a bit about transmutation speed (which I admit is a fair point) because they both are addressed above.

But, to summarize, it doesn't matter what illusions they use or not, because the bullets are moving super slow for everyone, meaning that nothing short of the Dodge RAMs can save my fodder.

Excuse me? You are criminally underselling Dodge RAM pick up trucks here.

Nothing Loki can't just either trick with the illusions, rendering them helpless. Nor are they anything Strange can't deal with.

This was a joke the trucks are for show.

Dodge RAMs are far too intelligent to be tricked by Loki's mere illusions. This is a pathetic attempt of a lowball and doesn't refute the fact that the trucks solo everyone here.

It's not like Loki doesn't have the skills with his knives, as shown here in order to hit the wheels, causing it to spill out of control and possibly hit some collateral damage. Also your perk makes Loki more than fast enough to get out of the way.

Do you realize how much horsepower they have? 300+... Unless Loki has feats of destroying 300+ horses, he gets run over...

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Already addressed. How would they know they are Illusions specifically? For all they know, they would just be intangible, and their's nothing to suggest they'd immediately identify them as illusions.

First of all, the mercenaries are clearly skilled and so is Batman. This is made clear through choreography alone.

Not really, most of the thugs were getting 1-2 shotted, and Bats isn't nearly as strong to be anywhere near Loki's level.

Bats is never replicating the feat of no-selling a hit from Cap, sending him flying, all whilst holding his own in skill, he simply doesn't have the feats, reputation nor the experience against opponents with actual feats to warrant it.

Let's put things into context, this is the guy who could easily dent cars in CW, take a load of abuse from Bucky's metal arm (which by itself has feats above what Bats has done) and fast/skilled enough to perform the now-famous elevator scene, which is way better than Cap fighting off those fodder for very clear reasons. Cap has always had Batman outclassed in every way, and Loki no-sold his attacks and fought back just fine, so quite frankly, A Batman level opponent is quite frankly fodder to Loki, let alone mooks who are fodder to the Bat.

However, what is important isn't the thugs' hand to hand skill, but their proficiency with firearms. Several thugs in the clip above were able to tag Batman multiple times. It is worth noting that many of these were headshots and that Batman was a swift and difficult to hit target. Furthermore, the thugs, in the beginning, were able to hit the Batwing, which moved at hundreds of miles per hour, from across the bay with a heavy machine gun.

Most of the headshots were when they were at point blank range, so it's not all that impressive, and the fight will already be in cqc from the very beginning, so having long range capabilities aren't necessary. Plus when hitting the batwing, the thing wasn't far from ground level and was clearly not going at full speeds, making it a much easier target to hit.

It is also worth noting that Lex Luthor (a billionaire with vast resources) hired these men specifically to guard Martha Kent against Superman himself. It is not a stretch in the least to suggest that these mercs would be extremely proficient marksmen and hand-to-hand assailants, especially considering Lex's intellect.

Shame they have nothing to back this up worth a damn beyond vague scaling to someone who's best skill feats com from these fights. As I've mentioned previously, a paradox of un-impressiveness.

Doubt this highly. Not only does the fodder have .50 cal machine guns that will most definitely pierce his armor (since they pierce planes, bulletproof glass, and industrial steel.)

They need to be able to hit him first through the speed and illusions first.

Excuse me? Those are insane leaps in logic, again. ABC logic rarely works at all, and it definitely doesn't work here. Let's break this down step-by-step.

Not gonna go through everything, but this'll fall under what I said previously about speed equalized. Unless you unironically think DD is below bullet speed (something I seriously doubt), then Loki and Strange can still dodge these bullets fine. I could counteract this, but tbh, I ain't worth the effort.

Deadshot can also decimate moving targets if you were wondering:

None of the feats you provided where moving anywhere near tagging Supersonic, or even FTE oppnnents, so my point stands.

Again, this argument is moot because your team has no ranged attacks that come close to that speed.

Well it's not like the fodder have any quantifiable speed feats of their own, and they'll have no idea that the projectiles will be coming (since, and I know I've said this before, but they've never faced someone like Strange), tagging them will still be a complete non-issue.

But it will help him see that enemies are being disrupted by the bullets, leading him to believe that they are not real. This matters little, however, since the team will decimate Loki once they realize that he's actually attacking from behind.

At that point it's too late. Loki will be already working on mopping the floor with your fodder with superior strength and skill, and Strange will also be done, so he can go to town with his whips, which your team can't handle considering their sheer numbers difference via clones and lack of knowledge.

Except he can't possibly hope to be able to kill Deadshot, or any merc, without getting spotting and having a hailstorm of bullets tear him apart.

They'll still be disorientated by the illusions, Loki can attack invisible as I've shown, and Strange will be right behind him (you'd have to find & kill the real Loki in not even a second if you want to avoid the fodder fighting Strange).

I suggest you recheck that section since it proves that nothing in Loki and Strange's arsenal can even make Doomsday flinch and I've already proved that transmuting Doomsday isn't possible.

Nah, it's possible, just that the soul (if he even has one) will remain, and unless you wanna say he can adapt to his entire body being transmuted (please don't, that's silly and we all know it), then it still counts as my victory no matter which way you slice it.

Doomsday will tag them eventually, and Strange can't hide forever. Getting close to Doomsday, even for a second, is a death wish. Keeping your distance just results in a fiery death.

He won't get the chance to fight.

Fair point. However, I don't see any possible situation that includes Doomsday's defeat, as they literally can't surpass his durability.

Except with transmutation.

Either way, they can't transmute Doomsday, so they literally just make it quicker by bringing themselves right to their deaths.

Already considered.

I just assumed, because in reality there is an infinite amount of possibilities with every situation. Strange would have had to stop eventually, but the possibilities are literally endless because of every possible slight variation that leads to another, and another, etc. No need to argue semantics, however. This doesn't change the outcome at all.

You assumed, and you were proven wrong.

True; I outlined that the shockwaves only occur when he is healing or adapting.

Which means he won't use it during this fight.

On the contrary. Loki needs to take down Deadshot and the mercs because if he doesn't he AND Strange die. Strange can't afford to have to deal with a hailstorm of bullets (and Deadshot wouldn't miss) and Doomsday all at once.

Doomsday gone in less than a second, so they can easily mop up the fodder as a duo without issue. Again, the bullets aren't tagging Loki or Strange considering I believe we both put DD at worst high-supersonic speeds.

The transmutation arguments were pretty repetitive but this one does have an exception: The problem is that Doomsday has super-hearing, being a Kryptonian and all, meaning that he'd hear Strange behind him and kill him pretty instantly.

He'd have to not only have the brainpower to stop and smell the roses instead of the threats right in front of him, as well proper blitz him kill Strange if you want to not be transmuted, which can't happen since Strange will be doing this the moment the fight starts and that speed is equal. Needless to say, I can't see something like this happening.

Not really noteworthy since I established that it is based on healing and adaption. However, that is important if Strange decides to attack Doomsday, because he adapts (or tries to) whenever he encounters a new method of attack. This means that any magic will be seen as different and result in a deadly evolution wave that decimates all of the land for miles. While I'm not arguing that Doomsday can adapt to anything (NLFs are pretty dumb) I am suggesting that anything that doesn't instantly kill him will result in an AoE attack of annihilation as Doomsday attempts to adapt to the new substance.

Well good thing the transmutation will kill him instantly, unless you wanna argue DD being able to regenerate with nothing but a soul left (that's what you'd have to do even if I subscribed to your idea of needing to destroy a soul), otherwise it's still a win for me via Incap.

False, it instantly affects the area around him once it starts. That wasn't him charging energy, it was him absorbing the incoming attacks, which resulted in adaption. Other waves were pretty instantaneous, like the one following the nuke and the one following the slicing of his arm.

My point still stands that DD only uses this kind of attack is used when he's being overwhelmed/Injured , which Strange's instant transmutation won't give him the time to even process that he's in any kid of danger.

That's what the Dodge RAMs are for: driving away.

Go ahead, run away, makes picking apart the ground soldiers even easier.

I don't see this as something that would even be allowed in this situation since the characters on the team would be REQUIRED to team up against the other team. However, Doomsday can still solo everybody here (including the fodder) 10/10 times.

Let's just say there's a reason prefect teamwork is a perk.

Not at all. There are an infinite amount of random thoughts, slight changes in actions, environmental effects, mistakes, etc. that can change the battle. Furthermore, the timing of these can change, even further distorting everything. With a butterfly effect, this will lead to an infinite amount of results existing.

Did you not see my counter post? Strange himself contradicts what you are saying here, their are a finite amount of timelines with only so many possibility, their just happens to be a metric assload of them, and Strange will see them all, as he had before.

Doomsday can't be transmuted, and so you're entire argument falls apart.

Nah, his body can still be transmuted fine, his soul will just be chilling in ghost space somewhere (if he even has one) as a worst case scenario.

The issue is that Doomsday won't die and that every member of my team has the ability to destroy your members in seconds.

Has to hit my duo first through clones, bfr shields and illusions first, and he will be removed from the equation.

Without any method of winning, Strange and Loki can only resort to illusions and clones to delay their inevitable downfall.

Nah, for reasons already stated

Deadshot shoots him in the head once the illusion/clone ruse is up.

My duo's faster than any bullet you can through at me.

Won't get the chance to.

Doomsday smacks them

Has to find them first, at which point it's too late.

Doomsday flies around, waits, and then smacks them once he finds them

Strange can fly too, their's no escape.

The mercs shoot them eventually

Thanks to your perk, they are more than fast enough to avoid anything

They get run over by Dodge RAMs while Doomsday dances in the back.

They are both faster and Strange can fly (he can drag Loki into the air if he must).

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These all fall under the "already addressed" category, but I don't want to just not acknowledge points that you've made.

The same ones Batman was dodging out of the way of? Yeah, especially with speed equalised and the defensive measures set up pre-battle, my team will be fine staying safe from these blasts.

He was also able to tag the supersonic Wonder Woman and Superman himself on multiple occasions. The Batman showing is more aim-dodging than anything, with Bruce grappling away as soon as Doomsday noticed him.

Let's go over my battle plan, one last time.

The Doomsday & prep part remains unchanged, Strange still has the ability to transmute him, and one-shot. Your only counter argument was that Strange can't kill someone because he needs to affect the soul, however not only is DD having a soul rather questionable, given his artificial nature, leaving DD as nothing but a soul with no body to regenerate to (his HF simply hasn't soon capabilities at that level). And Strange still has the means to defend himself via portals, whist his clones grant DD a distraction for him to be tricked by.

The problem with the entire transmutation argument is that it doesn't work, even beyond the soul-issue. Strange hasn't transmuted matter before. Furthermore, that's the only win condition he could possibly have, and it's literally impossible.

Speaking of tricks, Loki still stabs Floyd in the back, killing him on the spot and giving him no time to fight back due to him being grossly outclassed in both strength & skill, and as for the rest of your fodder, not only are they grossly outclassed in physicals, but this is were your own speed equalized perk bends you over and really screws ya, as the speed being equalized to Doomsday means that both of my members can definitely weave between any kind of gunfire you throw at them, and mop them up with knives and magic.

Fair enough.

So to conclude, DD may be a big boy, but my duo has the hax, prep time, prior knowledge & toolkit to take you down. I'll admit I've been repeating a lot of things, but that's merely to emphasise how effective they will be.

Okay, my turn.

Doomsday's Victory

It is really obvious now that the mercs and Deadshot are dead pretty quickly due to speed differences. However, Doomsday literally cannot die. Since we've established the lack of reliability with transmutation, Strange and Loki can't win at all. Their 15 minutes prep consists of millions of different situations where Doomsday claps them and not one where your team wins. Let's look at their offensive capabilities compared to Doomsday's durability and power.

Doomsday's Durability

He consistently tanks hits from Superman and shrugs off missiles, heavy machine gun bullets, and nuclear missiles.

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He also can regrow limbs.

So, what do Strange and Loki bring to the table?

Loki

His knives, which can't pierce Doomsday, a nuke-proof being that no-sells 30 caliber bullets from miniguns.

...

That's it. His striking feats can maybe bother Thor, who is far below Doomsday and shrugs off most of Loki's attacks.

Strange

This is more interesting, however.

I'll copy and paste most of these from his respect thread to cover as much as possible.

Eldritch Weapons:

The whips and sword can't even hope to bother Doomsday; they failed against Thanos, a much less durable opponent (though he is no slouch.) The Bands of Cyttorak are interesting but won't hurt Doomsday at all. Furthermore, Doomsday would break free much easier than Thanos did, as he is far stronger. He rivals Clark in that regard, who pulls entire sea liners, lifts oil rigs, and destroys World Engines that are at least state-country level.

Those seem to be the only offensive weapons other than portals, which I assume would be your next logical argument after transmutation. However, that also doesn't work.

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You can clearly see that closing a portal on an organism cauterizes the would after cutting it, similar to a lightsaber would. This means the damage is heat-based, which spells bad news for your team because Doomsday's skin has withstood nuclear explosions, missiles, heat vision, and reentry into Earth's atmosphere; all of this is far beyond the capabilities of Cull Obsidian, the most durable individual to be hurt by a portal.

Doomsday's Clapping Devices

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His punches can match Superman's blitzes, which are especially powerful.

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The World Engine weakened Clark with the Kryptonian atmosphere, and he still was able to fly through a force that could terraform the Earth by obliterating the crust and destroying all surface life.

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Heat vision and the evolution waves will both one-shot Loki and Strange. If Strange tries to introduce a new substance or method of attack into Doomsday, he will adapt to it (or at least try to,) which would result in a wave of annihilation that destroys everyone nearby but Doomsday. Nothing short of leaving the battle entirely would safe them from this.

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Now, while illusions and shields will help to a certain extent, they don't make Loki and Strange invincible and certainly don't prevent them from eventually being hit. All it takes is one hit as well, meaning Doomsday just has to get lucky once. While Strange has several tricks up his sleeve, all they do is prolong the inevitable. Eventually, Loki and Strange will get tagged. The clones will be quickly picked off, and the illusions anger Doomsday temporarily until the real Loki and Strange try to attack Doomsday while he is turned. They then die.

Nothing in Strange and Loki's arsenal can put down Doomsday. Everything in Doomsday's can kill them several times over. You do the math.

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#35 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4171 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2658 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio

Open for votes. Rules for voting:

  • Min 400 posts required
  • Make your vote for the debater who convinced you their team could win based on the debate, and/or who was the better debater. Do not vote based on your opinion on who would win the fight.
  • Give reasons with your vote, why you vote for whoever you are voting for.
  • If a vote looks biased, we might not count it.

Let's go

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#39 Posted by Subline (8424 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by DiarrheaRegatta (5267 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by GateOfBabylon (4402 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote should go to @gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps. His posts play on his team's strengths very well, while Spartan failed to do as much for Deadshot and his mercenaries, as I felt he spent more effort trying to bring down the opponents than bringing up his own team. Both debaters were wonderful though, but my personal vote goes to The Pimp to End All Pimps.

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#43 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#44 Posted by geekryan (4770 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @thespartanb345t.

I was more convinced by his arguments and counters, whereas I thought that Gilgamesh made a lot of generalizations and assumptions. I was also convinced that Strange couldn't transmute Doomsday (which was the bulk of Gilgamesh's strategy) and that Loki could at least be injured by the high-caliber bullets that Deadshot and the mercs can use.

This was a fun debate to read though, so great job to the both of you!

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#45 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4171 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#46 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio
GilgameshSpartan
11
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#47 Posted by APEX_pretador (20993 posts) - - Show Bio

Open for votes. Rules for voting:

  • Min 400 posts required
  • Make your vote for the debater who convinced you their team could win based on the debate, and/or who was the better debater. Do not vote based on your opinion on who would win the fight.
  • Give reasons with your vote, why you vote for whoever you are voting for.
  • If a vote looks biased, we might not count it.

Let's go

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#48 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27883 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try to vote on this.

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#49 Posted by Lan_Fan (14925 posts) - - Show Bio

That's a very clever plan...

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#50 Posted by Chronicplane (9203 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try to vote on this.