jloneblackheart won, lvenger (pre52 Superman/MMH) vs jloneblackheart (Buu and co)

Team buu (jloneblackheart)

• Composite buu
• Mr Satan
• Bulma
• Dr brief

Strong will for bulma, 1 hr prep, mind link, full knowledge

Superman/Martian manhunter -pre52 (lvenger)

• Pre 52 Superman
• Pre 52 Martian manhunter

Bloodlusted, Magic immunity for superman

Rules:

Battlefield:

Restrictions on teleportation:

Battle rules:

Limitations:

Voter rules:

• This is a CaV, do not interfere in the debate because only lvenger and jloneblackheart are allowed to debate.
• You can ask to be tagged for votes.
• You can vote after the debate is over (it will be mentioned when it is open for votes)
• Vote on who debated better, i.e., convinced you that their team will win, not who you feel would win.
• If a vote looks biased, I might ignore it.

@lvenger@jloneblackheart

Let's go

Also, tell if you find any good image for this battle

bloodlusted Martian Manhunter... jesus christ

@apex_pretador: Tag me for all the matches in this tourney if you can.

Thanks.

Definitely

JL should probably post first since he has prep time.

@lvenger: I am working furiously but I don't think I'll have my opener up until Saturday. I thought that's when we were starting the tournament. I have a lot of work to get everything together since this is my first debate. I promise it will be worth it.

Are we doing one or two counters?

@jloneblackheart: That's fine, Saturday it is then. I look forward to seeing your opener. It's up to you, we might need 2 counters but 1 could work too.

Introduction

Dr. Briefs

The founder of Capsule Corporation, genius scientist and richest man in the world. Dr. Briefs always keeps his cool under pressure and no one seems to mind the smoking. He is the creator of capsule technology and experienced in mechanical engineering. He built a spaceship from Saiyan technology from the ground up in 34 days.

Capsule Corporations Capsule technology is able to shrink large items into small hand-held capsules. They can hold fluids and fuel as well as an impressive array of CC designed vehicles including cars, hover bikes, planes, submarines and mech suits. They are also capable of storing residences and mobile labs.

Corporation itself is a massive global technological power with the materials and stockpiles available for the battle.

Bulma Briefs

Daughter of Dr. Briefs, Bulma was a genius by the time she was five years old. She uses and designs her fathers Capsule technology. She invented the Dragon Radar, personal shrinking tech and even a time machine as well as understanding and improving alien technology and reverse engineering Dr. Gero’s blueprints to create a shutdown controller for the androids. She is also an accomplished pilot.

Together, the two Briefs geniuses have repaired Dr. Gero’s full mechanical android, repaired and built Namekian and Saiyan FTL spaceships and developed FTL communications. They both are also great at improvisation.

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Majin Buu

Accidentally created by the warlock Bibidi, Majin Buu is a being of pure evil possessing no reason or emotion. After his absorption of the Supreme Kais he became tamer, but still and engine of death and destruction across the universe. He wiped out hundreds of planets in a few years before he was sealed by his master when he could no longer control him.

I’m going to try this with as little power scaling as possible but reference to the level of another character is really only the measuring stick there is. Since there aren't many quantified feats, we have to look at progression, which is the basis for the universe. Each villain gets stronger, so Buu surpasses Frieza and Cell in overall power.

Strength

Buu possesses enough strength to punch SSJ2 Gohan and the Supreme Kai to the ground and leave craters. He defeated Dabura, SSJ2 Gohan, Supreme Kai and Gotenks with little effort and also defeated Majin Vegeta with no loss for the wear. Based on statements he is SSJ3 level as either Fat Buu or Kid Buu, with Kid Buu having the slight edge due to his ferocity.

I don’t think I would argue that Buu has greater strength than either of your combatants, but he certainly has enough to contend with them. He has displayed excellent striking strength that should be plenty adequate especially with the upcoming advantage…

Speed

Buu was able to blitz Dabura, a Cell level character. He was also able to effortlessly catch Gohan running away after giving them a head start. Again, Buu is about SSJ3 level and can keep up at those speeds. Dragon Ball fighting speed is much greater than their travel speed. In universe fighting has been progressively speeding up and they could move faster than the eye could see way back at the beginning.

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Buu should have the advantage at fighting speed against either of your combatants.

Since my scanner is on the fritz, watch this video for some of my references here for both speed and strength.

Energy Projection

Buu can destroy planets with uncharged energy blasts. He’s destroyed entire cities for fun with one attack. Buu has a near inexhaustible amount of energy that can cover great range with great force. Even with the durability they have, your team can’t take these head on and they won’t take many of them before they are down for good.

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Other abilities that Buu possesses that I will elaborate more on as the battle unfold:

• Stamina
• Regeneration
• Elasticity
• Power Mimicry
• Telekinesis
• Matter Manipulation
• Absorption
• Teleportation
• Fighting Ability

Mr. Satan

The World Champ needs no introduction. You’re just lucky I’m keeping him back with the Briefs family because you wouldn’t want him to have to solo you amateurs.

He’ll give Buu pep talks and maybe get some cool Saiyan battle armor to feel important. He may come in handy later…

Perks

Full Knowledge

Mind Link

Strong Will (Bulma)

One Hour Prep

Basic Strategy

Bulma has full knowledge of the combatants and their weaknesses and will develop weapons accordingly as the battle progresses. The prep time is used to gather capsules and get the mobile lab ready as these resources are readily available at Capsule Corp. A failsafe device will be made to neutralize either Satan or Dr. Briefs in the event of mind control attacks. Force fields will be set up as well as a perimeter of 450G barriers to help prevent entry.

Majin Buu will take on both combatants while the others drop back to continue their defensive measures before going on the offensive as well. Buu will overwhelm his opponents with his immense energy projection. Once they are clear of Buu's range, there's no reason for him to not unleash full power attacks since the world is indestructible.

@lvenger Post is up. Sorry I'm late.

@jloneblackheart: Oh how lucky you're keeping Mr Satan back, Superman and Martian Manhunter combined couldn't beat the guy who beat Cell, one shotted Goku and defeated Beebus.

I'll have my post up tomorrow.

@jloneblackheart: Nice opener but Bibidi didnt create Buu, he just knew the way to awake him ;)

@gaoron: Are you thinking of Babidi?

@jloneblackheart: No im talking about Bibidi. Akira in his interview said that Buu existed since time immemorial and that Bibidi only awake him to kill kaioshins.

@jloneblackheart:

Introduction

Superman

Rocketed from the doomed planet Krypton as a baby, Kal-El's spaceship crash landed on Earth where he was discovered by a couple in Kansas called the Kents. They raised the child as their own naming him Clark Kent. They nurtured him with love, guidance and a strong moral fibre. As he grew up, Clark discovered he possessed amazing gifts which he would later learn came from the yellow sun. As an adult, Clark resolved to use his gifts to serve and protect humanity. He moved to Metropolis and established himself under the identity of Superman, who was later considered the world's greatest hero.

Strength

Superman definitely holds the strength advantage over Buu in a physical fight, especially now that he's bloodlusted in this battle. He's cracked half the moon when the indirect shockwave from his punch rebounded off the Black Racer (Superman: The Man of Steel #116)

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Even more impressive is when a bloodlusted Superman one shotted Wonder Woman from the sun back to the Earth in seconds (Wonder Woman #219)

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Wonder Woman is a top tier easily on par with most DBZ characters in regards to durability yet one blow from a bloodlusted Superman knocked her out cold. Much less impressive blows have phased Buu and a punch that can one shot a top tier in durability and send them millions of miles is going to have an impact on even Buu's impressive regeneration.

Durability

Buu's energy projection is formidable as is the trademark of DBZ characters. Fortunately Superman's durability has several impressive showings where he's resisted massive amount of physical and energy based trauama. One example is Superman tanking the explosion of Pluto with only a ringing in his ears (Superman #171)

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This is one instance of Superman taking incredible force head on which means he can stand up to Buu's firepower too.

Speed

Even assuming Buu has the edge in fighting speed, it won't be enough that Superman won't be able to react to Buu. In JLA #63, Superman blitzes a ship travelling towards Earth at 'extra saturated lightspeeds' according to Kyle Rayner's ring. A poor choice of words, but the implication is clearly that the ship is moving at FTL speeds. Superman was able to blitz the ship before it hit the Earth, whilst detecting that there was no life on board and targeting anything that looked like an engine. So this shows FTL perceptions as well as FTL combat speed.

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Also, a bloodlusted Superman blitzed Wonder Woman from the Earth to the sun in less than 2 minutes whilst using heat vision and grappling with Diana (Wonder Woman #213)

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As light takes 8 and a half minutes to travel from Earth to the Sun that's definitely FTL in combat speed movement and perceptions.

Furthermore, Superman can perceive Barry Allen and Wally West travelling at superluminal velocity whilst they were evading Darkseid's Omega Beams and as impressive as DBZ speed can be, they aren't above Flash level speed (Final Crisis #7)

Energy Projection

Not as impressive as DBZ energy projection but that doesn't mean it won't have its uses. His heat vision can vaporise a massive part of the ocean right down to the ocean floor (JLA: Our Worlds at War)

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His combined use of heat vision and freeze breath has also incapacitated Bizarro (Action Comics #845)

Martian Manhunter

Bio - As the last survivor of the Martian race, J'onn J'onzz protects his adopted homeworld Earth from terrestrial and extrarrestrial threats. He is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful heroes on the planet. His Martian biology gives him a Swiss army knife of superpowers including; superhuman strength, speed, durability, flight, telepathy, intangibility, invisibility, shapeshifting, Martian Vision and regeneration. It's no wonder that even Superman himself considers J'onn the most powerful being on the planet.

Strength

Defeats Triumph in hand to hand combat (Justice League Task Force #28)

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Given that Triumph could amp himself physically to match Superman, it is quite impressive for MMH to KO him.

Speed

Keeps up with a bloodlusted Flash in battle when bloodlusted himself after Joker made the two fight each other (Hourman #16)

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Intangibility

When faced with Buu's energy projection, J'onn would opt to phase through it rather than tank it head on as Superman would like he does here against this White Martian's vision attack.

Phasing's not only good for defence, J'onn can also phase through opponents like here when he takes out 2 White Martians by phasing through their bodies (JLA #57)

Shapeshifting

MMH can manipulate his body into various forms. One effective form would be when J'onn modifies his molecular structure to defeat Ultraman (JLA: Earth 2)

Telepathy

This is J'onn's biggest trump card, he's one of the DCU's most powerful telepaths and has many impressive TP showings to his name. One of MMH's most impressive telepathic showings was breaking through Mageddon's psychic defenses to reach Superman twice (JLA #40-1)

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This is one of J'onn's more impressive telepathy feats because Mageddon was an extremely powerful telepath. To put the feat of getting past its psychic defenses into perspective, these are some of the things Mageddon has done: practically destroying Hector Hammond's (a planetary-scale telepath) mind, causing two wars to break out in the space of five minutes, forcing an entire planet full of the Old Gods (a single Old God could reality warp everyone on Earth to give them powers) to kill each other, driving everyone on Earth out of their minds with rage and fear and making them go to war, and with the exception of that last feat, all the others were done while Mageddon was light years away from its target.

Perks

• Bloodlusted (Team)
• Magic Immunity (Superman)

Problems with your Strategy

I assume your team will be done in the one of the mobile labs Bulma used during the Goku Black arc of Dragon Ball Super. That's fair enough. However, I'm afraid your attempt to gather resources from Capsule Corps is out of the question, your one hour prep perk clearly states that your prep has to take place on the battlefield. You can't leave to go back to Capsule Corps during prep, I already checked with ApexPredator and he confirmed this for me.

Since you can only work with what you've got in terms of standard gear, I must scrutinise the possibility of you making suitable weapons, shields and defences in an hour. First up is weapons, even with full knowledge Bulma and Doctor Briefs have never heard of Kryptonite up until this point nor have they weaponised the radiation of stars before. They may be geniuses but their genius is focused in technology, not in physics and radiation. And developing Kryptonite and red sun weapons are the only ones that would have an effect on Superman.

As for the mind control devices, again there's a big question as to whether the Briefs can build strong enough anti mind control devices in an hour with just a mobile lab resources. J'onn has also broken through the minds of extremely powerful telepaths as well as beings with strong telepathic defences so it's highly debatable as to whether Bulma and Dr Briefs can make anti mind control devices that can keep Martian Manhunter out in an hour.

It was never implied in the manga or anime that Dr Brief can just instantly build a gravity room in no time at all. There's no guarantee they'll have access to the necessary materials to build the gravity generators in a mobile lab. Whilst your feats of Bulma and Dr Briefs' technological achievements are impressive, they did them in longer than an hour and they had full access to Capsule Corps resources. Hell Bulma needed a day to build a time machine in Super. Those are factors you haven't accounted for in your prep.

Of course you might say you can have Majiin Buu make the necessary materials with his transmutation but this is not an instant fix. Buu is temperamental and childlike even when he's good. Plus he's not exactly the brightest bulb like when he failed an exam in the Universe 6-7 tournament by falling asleep. Transmuting candy and cake is one thing but creating complex machine parts is another matter.

Basic Strategy

Superman and Martian Manhunter will engage Majiin Buu as he presents the most immediate threat. Buu may be fast, powerful and his regeneration does pose a problem but Superman and Martian Manhunter's combined physicals and power will be enough to withstand Buu's onslaught. Overpowering Buu via pure brute force would be tough but the thing is, Buu doesn't have any notable mental resistance feats. Buu was easily manipulated by Bibidi into destroying planets en masse and Babidi was ordering Buu around before Goku pointed out that Buu didn't have to do what Babidi said. Hell even Mr Satan's friendship with Buu can be argued to be manipulative of sorts. The point is Buu can be easily manipulated with words alone because of his childlike attitude or destructive tendencies. So an extremely powerful telepath like Martian Manhunter can just put the mental whammy on Buu and prevent him from fighting at all. Remember you didn't pick perks which make your team immune to mental attacks or hax so J'onn can just subdue Buu in a telepathic illusion about eating candy or playing with Mr Satan. Or J'onn can turn Buu against your team making it 3 super powered gods against 3 ordinary people. Or he can just shut Buu's mind down entirely. And I can assure you there's more than enough proof about J'onn's telepathic power that means Buu won't be able to resist. Without Buu, your team's defences and weapons won't be nearly enough to stand up to two bloodlusted alien powerhouses

@jloneblackheart: Post is up, looking forward to your response.

@jloneblackheart: Bump.

I'll have my post up tonight. It's mostly finished.

T4V plox

Is it standard to counter in an introduction? If so, with an hour prep and full knowledge on my side, you should have gone first. Not that it matters because…

I assume your team will be done in the one of the mobile labs Bulma used during the Goku Black arc of Dragon Ball Super. That's fair enough. However, I'm afraid your attempt to gather resources from Capsule Corps is out of the question, your one hour prep perk clearly states that your prep has to take place on the battlefield. You can't leave to go back to Capsule Corps during prep, I already checked with ApexPredator and he confirmed this for me.

Looking back, I certainly wouldn’t call “one hour prep” with no additional information clear on that point. I assume “one hour prep” to be “one hour preparation for the battle.” But I guess it means “one hour with standard gear in a resourseless wasteland to figure out how to fight gods with a little house, a plane, cigarettes and maybe a few nudie magazines.” Had I thought that, I would have organized my perks differently because it kind of makes the ‘full knowledge’ perk fairly useless to my team as well.

Very well, but this certainly takes a lot of the fun of this away and now it’s just a battle of power.

Since you can only work with what you've got in terms of standard gear, I must scrutinise the possibility of you making suitable weapons, shields and defences in an hour.

I would agree. I had several good weapon examples but they are now moot. Most were to be annoyances and distractions.

First up is weapons, even with full knowledge Bulma and Doctor Briefs have never heard of Kryptonite up until this point nor have they weaponised the radiation of stars before. They may be geniuses but their genius is focused in technology, not in physics and radiation. And developing Kryptonite and red sun weapons are the only ones that would have an effect on Superman.

I was going to try to be as realistic to their capabilities as possible. I wasn’t going to take the Kryptonite route.

Dr. Briefs invented gravity and anti-gravity devices. Together with Bulma they have engineered faster-than-light spacecraft. Bulma built a working time machine and the energy to power it. You have to know physics to do these things.

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I would argue however that Bulma could create a red sun radiation weapon. She created the Blutz Wave Amplifier within minutes of Goku’s SSJ4 transformation to give Baby the upper hand in the battle.

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She later created the Blutz Wave Emitter to transform Vegeta into an SSJ4. This didn’t just amplify the Blutz Waves they were created within the machine. She built this during the course of the battle (a short time) with the final Shadow Dragons.

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But she won’t be building any of these things out of plants and insects so…

As for the mind control devices, again there's a big question as to whether the Briefs can build strong enough anti mind control devices in an hour with just a mobile lab resources. J'onn has also broken through the minds of extremely powerful telepaths as well as beings with strong telepathic defences so it's highly debatable as to whether Bulma and Dr Briefs can make anti mind control devices that can keep Martian Manhunter out in an hour.

I wasn’t going to suggest that they could develop mental dampers or anything of the sort since, except for basic telepathy and mind reading, this power isn’t a standard of the universe. I was thinking something that would incapacitate Dr. Briefs or Mr. Satan in the event they were to come under the Martian’s control. A simple device Bulma could use to zap them or gas them so they wouldn’t kill her.

The ‘mind link’ perk would have helped her know if someone lost control and her ‘strong will’ perk would help her resist attacks.

It was never implied in the manga or anime that Dr Brief can just instantly build a gravity room in no time at all. There's no guarantee they'll have access to the necessary materials to build the gravity generators in a mobile lab. Whilst your feats of Bulma and Dr Briefs' technological achievements are impressive, they did them in longer than an hour and they had full access to Capsule Corps resources. Hell Bulma needed a day to build a time machine in Super. Those are factors you haven't accounted for in your prep.

Again, I was not going to suggest anything outlandish. Assuming, as I did, that I could have an hour to gather the abundant resources my team usually has access to, that would include gravity generators. The way Vegeta goes through them, I’d be sure they have a few around. It would have just needed to be adapted during the prep time.

And yes, Bulma and her father have often needed some time to do massive achievements, but typically when it comes to smaller inventions and adaptions they turn them out quickly (Dragon radars, scouters, scooters, etc.). The idea was to weaponize and remote control already existing Capsule Corps vehicles to distract and wear down your team and as a supplementary defense in the event the mobile lab was attacked.

But, plants and insects…

Of course you might say you can have Majiin Buu make the necessary materials with his transmutation but this is not an instant fix. Buu is temperamental and childlike even when he's good. Plus he's not exactly the brightest bulb like when he failed an exam in the Universe 6-7 tournament by falling asleep. Transmuting candy and cake is one thing but creating complex machine parts is another matter.

I wouldn't try to sell that one, but I could if Buu absorbs everyone. But, I'd rather avoid the fan-fic battle of what Buulma can do in this fight.

For my one hour prep, Buu will absorb the team like he did Mr. Satan during GT.

On to the main event then.

Counters

Superman

Superman definitely holds the strength advantage over Buu in a physical fight, especially now that he's bloodlusted in this battle.

Wonder Woman is a top tier easily on par with most DBZ characters in regards to durability yet one blow from a bloodlusted Superman knocked her out cold. Much less impressive blows have phased Buu and a punch that can one shot a top tier in durability and send them millions of miles is going to have an impact on even Buu's impressive regeneration.

Strength really doesn’t matter to someone who cannot be physically damaged.

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There’s also the rubbery consistency of Buu’s physiology to contend with. Not only can it absorb some of that strength and lessen the blow, he can trap Superman within him or with pieces of himself. He can remove and control pieces of himself in the battle to trap or hit his opponents. It’s hard to fight something that can stretch with physical strength.

It should also be noted that Vegeta was using his speed to evade Buu's energy blasts before being ensnared by Buu, which he intended. Buu only looks and sounds stupid as Goku would later admit.

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Buu's energy projection is formidable as is the trademark of DBZ characters. Fortunately Superman's durability has several impressive showings where he's resisted massive amount of physical and energy based trauama. One example is Superman tanking the explosion of Pluto with only a ringing in his ears (Superman #171)

Impressive to be perfectly fine, but need I post the obligatory Roshi and Piccolo Moon destructions? Weaklings compared to Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who’s a weakling to Frieza, and so on. Pluto isn’t even 20% of the Moon.

I am unfamiliar with DC Comics so I am reluctant to use any scans I find as I don’t know the context or continuity, but I believe these hold some value to the discussion. Here’s what happens with something more on the order of magnitude Superman will be dealing with here.

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Even assuming Buu has the edge in fighting speed, it won't be enough that Superman won't be able to react to Buu.

I could agree to that, but it matters not. Buu will absorb and rebound from any physical attacks. During that time period, Superman’s stamina will dwindle and he will take hits of his own. The battle always starts with Buu taking some hits but typically end with him standing over a crumpled warrior. Buu has blitzed before and can increase his speed.

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Superman has been hit by slower and staggered by weaker.

His heat vision can vaporise a massive part of the ocean right down to the ocean floor (JLA: Our Worlds at War).

Superman’s heat vision is the only attack your team possesses that can do any damage to Buu that he may not be able to instantly recover from. He will regenerate of course, but this is the only attack that might give your team any respite from the battle. But still, it won’t be that long. He has reformed from mist in moments.

His combined use of heat vision and freeze breath has also incapacitated Bizarro (Action Comics #845).

I may not be a DC reader (most everything I know is from DCAU), but this seems like a real cop-out defeat for Bizarro, does it not? Why does he even pose a threat if Superman can defeat him, a clone of himself, so easily? Do you have any other examples of Superman’s freeze breath incapacitating any other being on his level of power?

In defense though, Buu could meet such attacks with energy beams or teleport out of the way.

Buu can also use his ki to push the attack away like Goku planned to do against Enma. While he couldn’t because the ice was made of spirits, it was apparent by his smile he knew blowing the freeze attack away would be nothing for him to achieve. Powering up alone generates high winds.

Regardless, I do not believe ice breath would be enough to contain Buu long in the event he was hit by the attack. Area of effect ki attacks are something Buu is quite fond of doing.

Additionally, Buu has shields that will help him with either heat vision or freeze breath.

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Another thing to consider is Buu’s power mimicry. Although it could be argued Buu can only copy ki attacks, the heat vision and freeze breath could give him additional ideas for unique attacks to give you a taste of your own medicine.

Martian Manhunter

I’ve covered strength and speed above with Superman. The same principles apply to the Martian.

When faced with Buu's energy projection, J'onn would opt to phase through it rather than tank it head on as Superman would like he does here against this White Martian's vision attack.

The Martian’s intangibility was only a threat to the human members of my team. While he is intangible, he cannot harm Buu.

As I mentioned, I am unfamiliar with DC Comics, but I feel these are relevant as I believe you have used them for durability feats for Superman and the Martian.

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One clearly shows the Martian being taken out by a small blast (that he approached with caution). The other shows him surviving a smaller than a city-sized blast. I notice he wasn’t intangible for these. Are there limits to his intangibility? What's the strongest attack he has phased through?

Regardless, these explosions are pretty timid compared to the types of energy Buu is going to be slinging around here. All Buu needs is land one and he has an excellent way of doing that, even to foes of superior speed.

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Phasing's not only good for defence, J'onn can also phase through opponents like here when he takes out 2 White Martians by phasing through their bodies (JLA #57)

Buu doesn’t have any organs or nerves or anything to make this an effective attack. He's had his head blown off not to mention all the holes through him.

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Additionally, this is an excellent way for the Martian to get himself absorbed. He’ll already be partially inside before he’s figured out what’s happened.

I think we all know what would happen in the Superman vs Majin Manhunter battle.

MMH can manipulate his body into various forms. One effective form would be when J'onn modifies his molecular structure to defeat Ultraman (JLA: Earth 2)

Buu can do things of a similar ilk.

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I suppose this could be a good argument for a defense against Buu’s transmutation except Buu’s power is magical in nature. Has the Martian ever resisted matter manipulation?

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This is J'onn's biggest trump card, he's one of the DCU's most powerful telepaths and has many impressive TP showings to his name. One of MMH's most impressive telepathic showings was breaking through Mageddon's psychic defenses to reach Superman twice (JLA #40-1)

Buu doesn't have any notable mental resistance feats. Buu was easily manipulated by Bibidi into destroying planets en masse and Babidi was ordering Buu around before Goku pointed out that Buu didn't have to do what Babidi said.

Buu was created for destruction. It’s all he has ever known.

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Like I said earlier, there aren’t really any telepathic mind-controllers in the universe, but Babidi is the closest thing. He could project his thoughts and images into everyone on Earth’s head and communicate with anyone who thought to speak with him. He also could control the evil in beings and was able to control the Demon King Dabura into his service.

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Babidi was completely unable to control Buu, who has been described as pure evil. The only reason Buu listened to Babidi was because he threatened to seal him away again.

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Also, Buu’s killing of Babidi shows he was never really under any control whatsoever.

Buu was also unable to be controlled by Baby, although his method of mind control used an egg as opposed to telepathic powers. He was still able to infect and control the entire human race.

Hell even Mr Satan's friendship with Buu can be argued to be manipulative of sorts. The point is Buu can be easily manipulated with words alone because of his childlike attitude or destructive tendencies.

It’s not manipulation, it was education. Buu doesn’t know any better. He just likes Mr. Satan for some reason.

So an extremely powerful telepath like Martian Manhunter can just put the mental whammy on Buu and prevent him from fighting at all. Remember you didn't pick perks which make your team immune to mental attacks or hax so J'onn can just subdue Buu in a telepathic illusion about eating candy or playing with Mr Satan. Or J'onn can turn Buu against your team making it 3 super powered gods against 3 ordinary people. Or he can just shut Buu's mind down entirely. And I can assure you there's more than enough proof about J'onn's telepathic power that means Buu won't be able to resist.

The illusions would require the Martian to actively use his powers, meaning when he stopped (from say, exhaustion), the battle would resume.

I selected perks based on overall advantage for any battle. As they were not as expected anyway, the consequence to my human team members are negligible. They were never your real problem. Besides, they are now part of Buu, so shouldn't Bulma's 'strong will' perk be as well?

Buu is uncontrollable by the top telepaths and magicians in his universe. A major plot point of his backstory is that he cannot be controlled. Do you have examples of the Martian controlling of "shutting down" magical or artificial creatures? I think at best a mind control attack would cause Kid Buu persona to come out and he would be even more resistant to control. And he would be a more ferocious and powerful opponent to face.

@lvenger Post is up.

Just going by what he originally said. If you go through my post above you'll see the references, such as Buu calling them the "mean people who made me." But, that's Akira for ya.

wow this is great debate

Daytime bump to hopefully get some voters in here. We at least need a third in case of a tie :p

@lvenger:

Bump

@jloneblackheart said:

@apex_pretador said:

wow this is great debate

Damn that jiggling is hypnotic...

T4V

I read both openings but counter is too long ill read it in a few days

@jloneblackheart:

Looking back, I certainly wouldn’t call “one hour prep” with no additional information clear on that point. I assume “one hour prep” to be “one hour preparation for the battle.” But I guess it means “one hour with standard gear in a resourseless wasteland to figure out how to fight gods with a little house, a plane, cigarettes and maybe a few nudie magazines.” Had I thought that, I would have organized my perks differently because it kind of makes the ‘full knowledge’ perk fairly useless to my team as well.

Very well, but this certainly takes a lot of the fun of this away and now it’s just a battle of power.

I made a point to check with Apex the exact nature of what your perks entailed. In fairness they could and should have been worded better so you knew what you were getting. Had you picked more appropriate or even better perks, this could have been an even bigger challenge. But as it is, you do only have an hour's prep in a deserted wasteland in a small lab with limited resources.

I do kind of wish I hadn't taken the fun away from it and made it a battle of power but I needed to be accurate and sure that you could get the prep you wanted to and unfortunately you cannot.

I was going to try to be as realistic to their capabilities as possible. I wasn’t going to take the Kryptonite route.

Dr. Briefs invented gravity and anti-gravity devices. Together with Bulma they have engineered faster-than-light spacecraft. Bulma built a working time machine and the energy to power it. You have to know physics to do these things.

That is appreciated, and I figured you wouldn't go with the Kryptonite route already.

Fair correction on my physics point, but that doesn't detract from the time issue. Dr Briefs would have needed a couple of days if not a week at least to build the gravity chamber. You would only have been able to bring it into play if Bulma or her father actually brought one of the gravity chambers from Capsule Corps.

I would argue however that Bulma could create a red sun radiation weapon. She created the Blutz Wave Amplifier within minutes of Goku’s SSJ4 transformation to give Baby the upper hand in the battle.

She later created the Blutz Wave Emitter to transform Vegeta into an SSJ4. This didn’t just amplify the Blutz Waves they were created within the machine. She built this during the course of the battle (a short time) with the final Shadow Dragons.

I didn't know you were counting GT showings too. Regardless, I think it took longer than minutes for Bulma to build the Blutz Wave Amplifier since SSJ4 Goku was beating on Baby for an episode or two.

Although Blutz waves are a form of radiation in the DBZ universe, there is a difference between moon radiation and solar radiation. Bulma might need to grasp the process of building such a machine, by which time the prep might be spent.

But she won’t be building any of these things out of plants and insects so…

Agreed unfortunately for you.

The ‘mind link’ perk would have helped her know if someone lost control and her ‘strong will’ perk would help her resist attacks.

Strong will isn't the same as complete TP immunity though and had Bulma continued to play a role in the fight, J'onn would have been able to break her will since his TP is tremendously powerful.

And yes, Bulma and her father have often needed some time to do massive achievements, but typically when it comes to smaller inventions and adaptions they turn them out quickly (Dragon radars, scouters, scooters, etc.). The idea was to weaponize and remote control already existing Capsule Corps vehicles to distract and wear down your team and as a supplementary defense in the event the mobile lab was attacked.

Ah so you've mentioned that your ideal gameplan would have been to bring in equipment and resources from Capsule Corps that are already constructed. It might have been a challenge had you been allowed gravity chambers and forcefields but it wouldn't have been anything Superman or J'onn couldn't overcome. Superman's striking power has broken through Green Lantern constructs and J'onn can phase through forcefields. As for gravity, Clark can move under increased gravity pressure as well as Saiyans.

I wouldn't try to sell that one, but I could if Buu absorbs everyone. But, I'd rather avoid the fan-fic battle of what Buulma can do in this fight.

For my one hour prep, Buu will absorb the team like he did Mr. Satan during GT.

I'm curious why Buu would absorb Bulma, Briefs and Mr Satan. They give Buu no increase in power or fighting skill. Is it just to keep them safe?

Anyway moving onto the main arguments.

Counters

Superman

Strength really doesn’t matter to someone who cannot be physically damaged.

There’s also the rubbery consistency of Buu’s physiology to contend with. Not only can it absorb some of that strength and lessen the blow, he can trap Superman within him or with pieces of himself. He can remove and control pieces of himself in the battle to trap or hit his opponents. It’s hard to fight something that can stretch with physical strength.

It should also be noted that Vegeta was using his speed to evade Buu's energy blasts before being ensnared by Buu, which he intended. Buu only looks and sounds stupid as Goku would later admit.

But sufficient strength to hurt Buu does matter in this fight and Superman's striking feats, especially bloodlusted, are superior than any non fused character in DBZ.

That rubbery consistency argument can only stretch so far to pardon a pun. SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu were able to do physical damage to Buu with their blows and before you mention the power difference, Superman is on par with SSJ3 Goku by feats so he has the necessary power to damage Buu especially when bloodlusted.

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As for Buu throwing pieces of himself at Superman, those can be easily evaded or incinerated with heat vision. Buu may be a dangerous and powerful opponent, but I sincerely doubt his skill and tactics. Clark is a tactical fighter and won't fall for a "He's behind you" routine.

Impressive to be perfectly fine, but need I post the obligatory Roshi and Piccolo Moon destructions? Weaklings compared to Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who’s a weakling to Frieza, and so on. Pluto isn’t even 20% of the Moon.

I am unfamiliar with DC Comics so I am reluctant to use any scans I find as I don’t know the context or continuity, but I believe these hold some value to the discussion. Here’s what happens with something more on the order of magnitude Superman will be dealing with here.

Sorry but I'm not one of those people who buy into DBZ characters being supernova level without evidence. They are planet busting, maybe even multi planet busting at best, but there is not one concrete, absolute, definitive on panel feat of a DBZ character demonstrating solar system or supernova busting before Super. You can try to defend this point with power scaling or Cell's empty statement about destroying the solar system or but that will not work with me. Buu doesn't have supernova ki blasts by his actual feats and by Superman's actual durability feats, he can withstand Buu's energy blasts. Here's Superman tanking the nearby explosion of the planet New Krypton in Superman: War of the Supermen #1.

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I could agree to that, but it matters not. Buu will absorb and rebound from any physical attacks. During that time period, Superman’s stamina will dwindle and he will take hits of his own. The battle always starts with Buu taking some hits but typically end with him standing over a crumpled warrior. Buu has blitzed before and can increase his speed.

Superman has been hit by slower and staggered by weaker.

With Martian Manhunter in this fight as well, I doubt Buu can tank their combined assault as even his prestigious regeneration has its limits. Vegeta and Goku could have double teamed him and overpowered Buu if their Saiyan pride and fighting instincts didn't get in the way of practical common sense.

I expected better than cherry picking downplaying from you. By that logic so has Buu. Consistently Superman is easily on Buu's stat level by his feats.

Superman’s heat vision is the only attack your team possesses that can do any damage to Buu that he may not be able to instantly recover from. He will regenerate of course, but this is the only attack that might give your team any respite from the battle. But still, it won’t be that long. He has reformed from mist in moments.

I can assure you a punch from Superman that one shotted Wonder Woman for millions of miles will be something Buu may not be able to instantly recover from. Heat vision is another method of destroying Buu's physical form. Moreover, as Superman is with Martian Manhunter and they've fought together in many battles, they'll be willing to combine their vision attacks to make an even more powerful attack. Here they use their heat vision and Martian vision to trigger a massive tectonic overpressure that would have caused planetary ecological devastation to the planet were it not for Green Lantern containing the explosion.

Since they're bloodlusted the pair won't care about collateral damage and be willing to cause maximum destruction to the surroundings so long as Buu is hurt or destroyed. That kind of attack would really do a number on Buu's regeneration.

I may not be a DC reader (most everything I know is from DCAU), but this seems like a real cop-out defeat for Bizarro, does it not? Why does he even pose a threat if Superman can defeat him, a clone of himself, so easily? Do you have any other examples of Superman’s freeze breath incapacitating any other being on his level of power?

In defense though, Buu could meet such attacks with energy beams or teleport out of the way.

Buu can also use his ki to push the attack away like Goku planned to do against Enma. While he couldn’t because the ice was made of spirits, it was apparent by his smile he knew blowing the freeze attack away would be nothing for him to achieve. Powering up alone generates high winds.

So just because it incapacitates Bizarro it's a cop out defeat? Your knowledge of the DCU is rusty if you think this is an oddity. Superman's beaten more powerful foes than this, and as for freeze breath feats, Superman has also frozen the brain of a cannibal planet incapacitating it in Adventures of Superman #620.

Perhaps but Buu also does not evade attacks sometimes and if Superman should freeze him that gives them another chance to attack Buu or for J'onn to TP him.

Again with the GT references. That doesn't really work since SSJ4 Goku, who was more powerful than Buu saga level characters, was frozen by Eis Shenron's ice attacks.

Regardless, I do not believe ice breath would be enough to contain Buu long in the event he was hit by the attack. Area of effect ki attacks are something Buu is quite fond of doing.

Additionally, Buu has shields that will help him with either heat vision or freeze breath.

It would be long enough for Buu to be hit with a speed blitz or for J'onn to TP Buu either way giving my team a chance to defeat Buu.

The shields can keep out freeze breath but the combined vision blast should be too much for Buu's shields to handle.

Martian Manhunter

I’ve covered strength and speed above with Superman. The same principles apply to the Martian.

And I have dealt with them accordingly. Adding Martian Manhunter into the equation only increases the physical gap between my team's combined might and Buu's.

As I mentioned, I am unfamiliar with DC Comics, but I feel these are relevant as I believe you have used them for durability feats for Superman and the Martian.

One clearly shows the Martian being taken out by a small blast (that he approached with caution). The other shows him surviving a smaller than a city-sized blast. I notice he wasn’t intangible for these. Are there limits to his intangibility? What's the strongest attack he has phased through?

Regardless, these explosions are pretty timid compared to the types of energy Buu is going to be slinging around here. All Buu needs is land one and he has an excellent way of doing that, even to foes of superior speed.

Citing convenient scans without context is a very weak tactic but I guess you had to make do with what you could find on Google. Once J'onn goes intangible Buu is not touching him with physical or ki based attacks. He's phased through a city busting attack that destroyed Keystone City in JLA Classified # so he's immune to city busting attacks.

J'onn also has his shapeshifting and regeneration to compensate for Buu's blasts. He can shapeshift into a form better suited for evading attacks and he can turn invisible so Buu won't see him coming. And although J'onn's regeneration isn't as impressive as Buu's it's still very good. He's regenerated his entire body from an arm in Martian Manhunter #8.

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Buu doesn’t have any organs or nerves or anything to make this an effective attack. He's had his head blown off not to mention all the holes through him.

Fair point that I should have considered but this doesn't render phasing useless. J'onn can still phase Buu into other objects like he phased Superman into the JLA round table (JLA #84)

Additionally, this is an excellent way for the Martian to get himself absorbed. He’ll already be partially inside before he’s figured out what’s happened.

Clark's senses will make him aware of Buu's tactic and warn MMH so that tactic doesn't fly.

I suppose this could be a good argument for a defense against Buu’s transmutation except Buu’s power is magical in nature. Has the Martian ever resisted matter manipulation?

No but given his speed and intangibility he won't have to.

Buu was created for destruction. It’s all he has ever known.

Like I said earlier, there aren’t really any telepathic mind-controllers in the universe, but Babidi is the closest thing. He could project his thoughts and images into everyone on Earth’s head and communicate with anyone who thought to speak with him. He also could control the evil in beings and was able to control the Demon King Dabura into his service.

Babidi was completely unable to control Buu, who has been described as pure evil. The only reason Buu listened to Babidi was because he threatened to seal him away again.

Buu was also unable to be controlled by Baby, although his method of mind control used an egg as opposed to telepathic powers. He was still able to infect and control the entire human race.

Buu was also unable to be controlled by Baby, although his method of mind control used an egg as opposed to telepathic powers. He was still able to infect and control the entire human race.

Saying Buu was created for destruction is about as valid as me saying Superman was created to be unbeatable. Besides, J'onn's telepathy has subdued Vishu, the Hindu god of destruction from awakening and ending the world/universe as is his role in Hindu mythology (JLA #64)

So J'onn's telepathy has worked on an entity of destruction. Buu being made for destruction won't protect him from TP.

Nor does Babibidi's magical possession and mental communication come close to J'onn's telepathic power. Not only can J'onn telepathically affect anyone good or evil but Babidi failed to completely control Vegeta's mind as Vegeta's pride allowed him to resist Babidi's control because he wanted the power to beat Goku. J'onn would never have that problem.

As there are no telepaths or mind controllers in the DBZ universe, that makes them all vulnerable to telepathy. And J'onn has TPed way more powerful beings with stronger telepathic/willpower defences than Buu's.

Too bad since that means J'onn can just trick Buu into thinking he's sealed away again.

The illusions would require the Martian to actively use his powers, meaning when he stopped (from say, exhaustion), the battle would resume.

I selected perks based on overall advantage for any battle. As they were not as expected anyway, the consequence to my human team members are negligible. They were never your real problem. Besides, they are now part of Buu, so shouldn't Bulma's 'strong will' perk be as well?

Buu is uncontrollable by the top telepaths and magicians in his universe. A major plot point of his backstory is that he cannot be controlled. Do you have examples of the Martian controlling of "shutting down" magical or artificial creatures? I think at best a mind control attack would cause Kid Buu persona to come out and he would be even more resistant to control. And he would be a more ferocious and powerful opponent to face.

Why on Earth would J'onn face exhaustion from shutting down Buu's mind? I've shown him piercing Mageddon's defences, who overwhelmed another planetary telepath called Hector Hammond from lightyears away and subduing Vishnu without fatigue. Buu has no mental defences to prevent J'onn shutting down his mind entirely. Besides, once Buu is stuck in his illusion, we win as Buu is no longer fighting. Superman can just pummel him until he won't regenerate whilst J'onn tricks his mind.

Adding Bulma's strong will perk to Buu won't make a difference, it's still not enough to resist Manhunter's telepathy. J'onn has TP feats well in excess of planetary telepaths and has affected more powerful beings than Buu.

There are no telepaths or magicians in the DBZ universe anywhere close to Martian Manhunter in power and control. You've brought up nothing concrete at this point to avoid the inevitable conclusion that J'onn can just mind zap Buu into submission. He's mentally damaged Dr Destiny, a reality warper who was amped by the minds of 6 billion people at the time in JLA Classified #30.

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Nothing you've shown for Buu proves he would not be taken out by such an attack. He's stopped the entire Justice League dead in their tracks in JLA Classified #46.

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Buu has shown no mental resistance feats anywhere near close enough to indicate he wouldn't be just as stopped as the League was. And J'onn has created a telepathic illusion in the mind of a reality warper long enough for Superman and Flash to depower him (JLA #51)

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Nothing prevents J'onn from trapping Buu in an illusion of eating candy or stuck in his cocoon prison. It's highly unlikely that Kid Buu would emerge from all this and even if he did, J'onn can handle him telepathically as well. Even if the physical assault from Superman fails, J'onn's telepathy is guaranteed to shut Majiin Buu down.

If you don’t mind, I’ll just skip the responses to the Bulma stuff since it’s kind of irrelevant. I could counter it, but it’s kind of a waste of both our time at this point and I, as usual, have a lot to say.

I didn't know you were counting GT showings too.

It was in the tournament sign up when characters were chosen.

• Dragon ball characters are allowed Manga, Anime , BOG, RoF, DBS (manga/anime) and GT feats unless stated otherwise.

I'm curious why Buu would absorb Bulma, Briefs and Mr Satan. They give Buu no increase in power or fighting skill. Is it just to keep them safe?

It’s not only to keep them safe but they can always provide intelligence and motivation. Bulma might not be a fighter but she could help with strategies. Bulma and Satan can also help ensure that Buu fights seriously.

Counters - Superman

But sufficient strength to hurt Buu does matter in this fight and Superman's striking feats, especially bloodlusted, are superior than any non fused character in DBZ.

SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu were able to do physical damage to Buu with their blows and before you mention the power difference, Superman is on par with SSJ3 Goku by feats so he has the necessary power to damage Buu especially when bloodlusted.

SSJ3 Goku did absolutely no damage to either Fat Buu or Kid Buu in their battle. Fat Buu was having fun and Goku couldn’t even damage Kid Buu before he ran out of energy.

I’ve already covered how Buu is undamaged by physical blows and can easily repair even the most extreme impacts. Throughout the saga, it was clear that Buu’s ki remained the same no matter how much energy he put out or how much damage he received. He can only be damaged physically or have his ki worn down by another Buu.

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That rubbery consistency argument can only stretch so far to pardon a pun.

Well, let’s stretch it. You just said Superman is on par with SSJ3 Goku and below fused characters. Well, SSJ3 Gotenks and Gohan (both superior to SSJ3 Goku) were completely unable to break free from Buu’s body extensions and were overpowered and absorbed.

As for Buu throwing pieces of himself at Superman, those can be easily evaded or incinerated with heat vision. Buu may be a dangerous and powerful opponent, but I sincerely doubt his skill and tactics. Clark is a tactical fighter and won't fall for a "He's behind you" routine.

Buu trapped Vegeta as shown in my previous post with strategy. Vegeta was able to evade the energy attacks, but they were just a distraction to ensnare him.

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Sure the Buu detachments can be “incinerated” but that is only temporary. Those pieces of Buu still exist. There are two scenarios for that:

1. The atomic particles find their way back to Buu

2. Those particles reform and do a sneak absorption

Sure Clark is a tactical fighter, but there’s going to be a lot going on and a lot wearing him down. You’re also not giving Buu any credit either. He’s very crafty and unorthodox to boot. He’s also fought fairly evenly with both Goku and Vegeta, two of the greatest tactical fighters in the universe, with no training.

If Clark or the Martian can escape from these bonds, it will not be effortless.

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Sorry but I'm not one of those people who buy into DBZ characters being supernova level without evidence. They are planet busting, maybe even multi planet busting at best, but there is not one concrete, absolute, definitive on panel feat of a DBZ character demonstrating solar system or supernova busting before Super. You can try to defend this point with power scaling or Cell's empty statement about destroying the solar system or but that will not work with me.

I don’t need it to work on you; I need it to work with the voters. Empty or not, it’s a statement that was made and the characters involved were shocked by said statement. I personally don’t believe Cell could take out the solar system either, but he could potentially take out the Sun. Buu being leagues above Cell should give him even greater odds at achieving the feat. But I don’t need to prove supernova level energy projection…

Those scans show Superman KO’ed by being on a planet when it was destroyed that was millions of miles away from a supernova. The energy of the supernova goes equally in all directions and the planet Superman is on is but a speck receiving only the smallest portion of that potential energy and at great distance.

What fraction of a star do you think Buu could destroy since he can so non-chalantly destroy worlds?

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Please note that Buu destroys these worlds, along with himself, reforms and teleports to another to do it again in mere moments.

Buu doesn't have supernova ki blasts by his actual feats and by Superman's actual durability feats, he can withstand Buu's energy blasts. Here's Superman tanking the nearby explosion of the planet New Krypton in Superman: War of the Supermen #1.

They were fighting outside of the moon. I don’t know about New Krypton, but our moon is almost a quarter million miles away. He’s caught in a shockwave and debris more than in the blast. This feat is akin to the Pluto blast: Impressive, but not enough.

With Martian Manhunter in this fight as well, I doubt Buu can tank their combined assault as even his prestigious regeneration has its limits.

Buu can always to duplicate himself to even the odds (or double them).

So far, except against another Buu, he hasn’t lost stamina or met something he could not reform from. But don’t worry, that’s coming up.

Vegeta and Goku could have double teamed him and overpowered Buu if their Saiyan pride and fighting instincts didn't get in the way of practical common sense.

Huh? They’d have gotten their asses kicked. Fusion would have been the only way.

I expected better than cherry picking downplaying from you.

Is this in regards to the Superman KO feat or the statement I made “Superman has been hit by slower and staggered by weaker”?

If the Superman scans, if you mean “cherry-picking” to be finding things that help prove my argument, then yes, I certainly cherry-picked it. As far as I can tell, it’s current, in-continuity, non-weakened Superman.

If it’s the latter, I’m not sure how that is cherry-picking at all and I don’t see it as downplaying either. I’m an avid Silver Surfer fan. I would never go into a debate and claim slower couldn’t hit him or weaker couldn’t harm him because I’ve seen it happen a zillion times.

With as many appearances as Superman has had, I’m positive you’ve seen the same.

I can assure you a punch from Superman that one shotted Wonder Woman for millions of miles will be something Buu may not be able to instantly recover from.

Your assurance isn’t required, evidence is. I’ve posted plenty of examples of him bouncing right back from physical impacts. No form of Buu vs any character (including fused) has ever been harmed physically by strikes. Superman can pound him flat if he wants.

Also Wonder Woman got right up just fine and proceeded to take advantage of Clark's weakness (another I can exploit with full knowledge) and then kicks his ass. It should be noted Superman thought she was Doomsday who had just killed Lois. It was stated he was not holding back at all. (Wonder Woman #219):

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I still have yet to see a counter for Buu’s elasticity besides a pun.

Heat vision is another method of destroying Buu's physical form. Moreover, as Superman is with Martian Manhunter and they've fought together in many battles, they'll be willing to combine their vision attacks to make an even more powerful attack. Here they use their heat vision and Martian vision to trigger a massive tectonic overpressure that would have caused planetary ecological devastation to the planet were it not for Green Lantern containing the explosion.

Since they're bloodlusted the pair won't care about collateral damage and be willing to cause maximum destruction to the surroundings so long as Buu is hurt or destroyed. That kind of attack would really do a number on Buu's regeneration.

I’m curious, how well does teamwork and bloodlust go together? I’d imagine bloodlust would inhibit your team in this scenario. Without bloodlust, your team would quickly realize they needed to pull out all the stops anyway. With bloodlust, I can’t see tactics and teamwork being a major factor of your battle plan.

But I digress. So together, your teams combined might can muster an attack that will “cause planetary ecological devastation.” That’s cute.

I’ve covered how Buu’s regeneration can repair holes through his body and replace any appendage he’s lost including his head. He can reform from atoms in moments. So what does it take to actually destroy Buu?

Buu has reformed from incinerations from SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu and more impressively, Majin Vegeta’s suicide attack. No harm, no foul. He didn’t even need to regenerate from Goku’s attack and he was mostly intact for Kid Buu’s assault as well.

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Buu completely absorbed Baby’s Revenge Death Ball by swallowing it. He, of course, survived. Instead of reforming, he chose to unite with Uub to become the most disappointing character in franchise history.

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This is impressive because the Revenge Death Ball is basically an evil Genki Dama and Baby used the same attack to ‘kill’ Goku (he was saved by Kibito Kai but would have died in the blast). The blast itself warped time and space and broke dimensional barriers. And Buu swallowed one.

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We also got to see Buu fight the God of Destruction himself. Here he takes a blast from an angered Beerus.

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Buu returned moments later for more before being sent back down to earth again. But, he came back for more a third time. It shoud be noted that Beerus defeated Gotenks by slapping his wrist, defeated Tien, 18 and Piccolo with a simple kiai, one-shotted Vegeta and knocked out Gohan in one hit as well (with Buu). I bet Buu would come back for more but it was time for the main event with Rageta followed by the arrival of Goku.

Buu is the only one Beerus used an energy blast on (until SSG Goku) and Buu was the one that had angered him in the first place. Not saying Beerus gave it everything he had, but I’d argue he gave it what he thought would end it.

Still not dead? Is there anything that can stop the terror that is Majin Buu?

So just because it incapacitates Bizarro it's a cop out defeat? Your knowledge of the DCU is rusty if you think this is an oddity. Superman's beaten more powerful foes than this, and as for freeze breath feats, Superman has also frozen the brain of a cannibal planet incapacitating it in Adventures of Superman #620.

I’m certain Superman has beaten more powerful foes but that just seems like a very low showing for Bizarro. If they are considered equals (or even roughly the same) as each other, Superman could be incapacitated that easily? But you’ll argue he could escape Buu’s elasticity or absorption?

I’m not sure how freezing a massive target that isn’t fighting back that has exploitable organs has any bearing on this battle. I’m looking for something comparable to the Bizarro incapacitation. We saw above that it is incapable of incapacitating Wonder Woman.

Perhaps but Buu also does not evade attacks sometimes and if Superman should freeze him that gives them another chance to attack Buu or for J'onn to TP him.

Remember how I kept the rest of my team around? They can make sure he avoids. They do have full knowledge of all of Superman’s attacks. We’ll get to the TP soon.

Again with the GT references. That doesn't really work since SSJ4 Goku, who was more powerful than Buu saga level characters, was frozen by Eis Shenron's ice attacks.

Eis was also nearly SSJ4 level. He was also an elemental and froze the entire city in an instant.

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Eis’s freeze beam is superior to Superman’s freeze breath as it worked instantly on contact. It sure didn’t hurt that Goku just stood there and let him freeze him limb by limb without any effort to avoid it either. GT Goku is a dope. But, the second time he froze Goku, he escaped.

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It would be long enough for Buu to be hit with a speed blitz or for J'onn to TP Buu either way giving my team a chance to defeat Buu.

The shields can keep out freeze breath but the combined vision blast should be too much for Buu's shields to handle.

A speed blitz merely delays the inevitable or brings you to Buu’s clutches, provided he doesn’t blitz you first. I’ve covered the regeneration and level of attacks Buu can reform from (which are better than what your team can do). We are still working our way towards the TP discussion.

The shield (ki barrier) should suffice fine for Superman’s freeze breath as referenced above. Your teams combined attack is an inconvenience at most even without the shields with Buu’s survival record (also referenced above). It also assumes both teammates are still standing. The longer the battle wears on, the more damages your team takes and the wearier they become.

Counters – Martian Manhunter

Adding Martian Manhunter into the equation only increases the physical gap between my team's combined might and Buu's.

Individual or combined makes little difference. All I the evidence I have so far to believe your team can inflict any lasting physical damage to Buu is your assurance.

Citing convenient scans without context is a very weak tactic but I guess you had to make do with what you could find on Google.

I actually got these from your respect threads/debates. The first you used as a Superman durability feat (since Superman could take Breach’s attack but the Martian couldn’t). The second you used as an MMH durability feat to show he had greater durability than the rest of his team. Again, these are in-continuity examples of a non-weakened Martian getting KO’ed by vastly inferior attacks than Buu can casually dish out.

I got the supernova one from a Superman respect thread. (They just leave out the last page). It’s an amazing durability feat for a man of flesh and blood to survive such an attack. Not a “lowball” in any shape or form.

Additionally, I did read the issues. Don’t assume that just because I don’t read DC that I have no resources. My LCS that I have been going to for 25 years is more than happy to let me read back issues and digital comics are abundantly available. I’m not afraid to spend a few dollars to have a good debate or take my time to make sure I have a good foundation.

And I did provide some context in that the Martian was cautious and aware of the danger of Breach and he still got blasted. If there is more context you’d like to provide, please share.

Once J'onn goes intangible Buu is not touching him with physical or ki based attacks. He's phased through a city busting attack that destroyed Keystone City in JLA Classified # so he's immune to city busting attacks.

And once he goes intangible, the Martian isn’t harming Buu. Catch 22.

And a city busting attack?

But still, that’s what I was asking for. Although we may not know the magnitude that he can phase through or the time duration he can do it. There also has to be some reason the Martian isn’t intangible at all times in battle?

J'onn also has his shapeshifting and regeneration to compensate for Buu's blasts. He can shapeshift into a form better suited for evading attacks and he can turn invisible so Buu won't see him coming.

You can’t really move your vital organs out of the way of the blast sizes we are talking about here. Even if he gets hit by a small one, there will be pain and recovery time involved.

Invisibility doesn’t matter to someone who can sense ki. It’s a life force and everyone has it. It could be detected on a scouter in normal humans and Black was able to find Trunks (who was suppressing his ki) by finding Mai, who is untrained in ki usage.

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And although J'onn's regeneration isn't as impressive as Buu's it's still very good. He's regenerated his entire body from an arm in Martian Manhunter #8.

That looks pretty taxing and lengthy process. I guess one could hope there would be that much of him left. We should also hope he doesn’t get blasted again before that regen kicks in. Or transmutated. Or absorbed.

Fair point that I should have considered but this doesn't render phasing useless. J'onn can still phase Buu into other objects like he phased Superman into the JLA round table (JLA #84)

There are no structures on our battlefield but I suppose he could be phased into the planet? Which Buu could immediately power his way out of? Not sure if this is an honorable mention or an actual battle tactic. And wouldn’t the Martian have to be in physical form to pull Buu there?

Clark's senses will make him aware of Buu's tactic and warn MMH so that tactic doesn't fly.

Provided Clark is with his senses and not recovering from the punishment Buu will be delivering. I’ve already shown the diversions Buu makes. Buu was also able to sneak absorb three powerful beings all with super senses and the ability to sense ki (which you don’t have). Gohan was absorbed after having seen the technique (with Goku present!).

You’re also suggesting that, mid-battle, Superman can detect this surprise attack, warn the Martian and have the Martian react to it before it happens? That’s some wishful thinking.

[regarding Transmutation] No but given his speed and intangibility he won't have to.

You make this sound so effortless for your team, like they will be fresh and on point every second of the battle. Buu will have opportunities and he’s been shown to do the attack in mid-fight. What if he’s fighting two Buus? What if he’s taken some heavy hits? What if he is fighting to escape Buu’s elasticity? What if he is trying desperately to reform from an arm because he caught a blast?

Saying Buu was created for destruction is about as valid as me saying Superman was created to be unbeatable.

It was stated as the beginning of my narrative go over a few assumptions and erroneous claims regarding Buu’s history and his ability to be controlled.

Besides, J'onn's telepathy has subdued Vishu, the Hindu god of destruction from awakening and ending the world/universe as is his role in Hindu mythology (JLA #64)

Vishnu is the preserver, not the destroyer (that’s Shiva). I read the whole arc and there is zero context as to where he came from, why he’s asleep or why his waking will end creation (since he is supposed to preserve it and he’s typically awake). (Wonder Woman #149):

But later Plastic Man had the task of keeping him asleep, so it must not have been that difficult.

Vishnu is abysmally featless and is peaceful compared to his brothers. The introduction of the Hindu Gods in Atom and Hawkman #42 gave their origin as interdimensional beings now in mortal bodies. Shiva had his brothers under control and fought Hawkman and Hawkgirl with magical talismans as a weapon. Their powers are unexplained and unquantified and they were easily killed by Chronus with the power of the Greek Gods (not exactly a low showing). These guys aren’t on the higher order of pantheons. They are about as godly as Kami.

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Buu being made for destruction won't protect him from TP.

Nor does Babibidi's magical possession and mental communication come close to J'onn's telepathic power. Not only can J'onn telepathically affect anyone good or evil but Babidi failed to completely control Vegeta's mind as Vegeta's pride allowed him to resist Babidi's control because he wanted the power to beat Goku. J'onn would never have that problem.

Vegeta allowed himself to be put under Babidi’s control.

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So when Dabura sensed Vegeta’s “wicked soul” it was actually a lure to get the power he desired. We don’t know if Babidi could have controlled him if he tried harder, but neither Babidi nor Dabura cared since Vegeta was still fulfilling his purpose (collecting energy for Buu).

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And ultimately, it also didn’t fully work because Vegeta isn’t evil. When Porunga granted the wish to bring everyone back to life except the evil people; Vegeta was among them. Hell, King Yemma even kept his body after he died.

This further reinforces my argument. It’s shown that the more evil you are the better control Babidi has over you. He easily controlled Dabura (really evil) and couldn’t fully control Vegeta (not really evil, but once upon a time). Buu is evil incarnate and neither Bibidi nor Babidi could control him in the least.

Since I’ve already been accused of cherry-picking and downplaying, I may as well go all in. Here we see what happens when the Martian tries to control a magical being with strong resistance to telepathy (World War III #1):

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There are limits to the Martians telepathic abilities.

As there are no telepaths or mind controllers in the DBZ universe, that makes them all vulnerable to telepathy. And J'onn has TPed way more powerful beings with stronger telepathic/willpower defences than Buu's.

I would expect a HoF debater would know that lack of evidence does not equal proof. So far the best feats you’ve shown are defeating Despero (who has synapses) and breaking through Mageddon’s defenses to let Bruce and Clark talk. But he couldn’t stop the Mageddon, could he? And the Mageddon never really tried to stop them either. It was a machine with a planetoid for a brain – a brain unlike a normal beings physiology that the Martian has been shown to affect.

Also, reading through the arc, I did not see Hector Hammond at all and all of the chaos caused by Mageddon was emotional manipulation, not telepathy/mind control. Mageddon had a ‘psychic event horizon’ and strong negative emotion manipulation that caused war to break out. Without the Hector Hammond feat that I can’t seem to find (arc #36-41, Mageddon’s only appearances), I don’t even see any telepathy.

Even ignoring all the signs that point to Buu’s inability to be controlled, Buu doesn’t have a brain or synapses or nervous system. What makes you so certain that TP would even work on a being like him? He couldn’t do anything to Mageddon. “Too primitive to reason with… it brings mass extinction…” Sound familiar to anyone?

The Martian has failed against those with strong willpower as well.

Why on Earth would J'onn face exhaustion from shutting down Buu's mind? I've shown him piercing Mageddon's defences, who overwhelmed another planetary telepath called Hector Hammond from lightyears away and subduing Vishnu without fatigue. Buu has no mental defences to prevent J'onn shutting down his mind entirely. Besides, once Buu is stuck in his illusion, we win as Buu is no longer fighting.

Exhaustion from the incredibly intense battle you have on your hands. You are also claiming that the Martian can fight while using his TP, something rarely shown. You are also assuming he can do this with ease despite contrary evidence. Typically, the League has his back so he can go to town with his telepathy or mental powers. Only Supes has his back here and he will be having big problems with Buu whether in close or at range.

He didn’t subdue Vishnu, he was keeping him asleep, just like Plastic Man was. Even if he were keeping the ‘god’ asleep, that is a much easier task than putting him back to sleep. Otherwise he could just put him back to sleep if he woke up. Buu is awake at full power.

Superman can just pummel him until he won't regenerate whilst J'onn tricks his mind.

You’re still going to have to prove that Superman can harm Buu, who has never been permanently damaged from physical attacks, let alone enough that he wouldn’t be able to regenerate from it. Even losing ki against another Buu, he was always able to bounce back and regenerate from physical strikes (as well as energy attacks).

Adding Bulma's strong will perk to Buu won't make a difference, it's still not enough to resist Manhunter's telepathy. J'onn has TP feats well in excess of planetary telepaths and has affected more powerful beings than Buu.

You are determined to take all of my perks out of this battle, aren’t you? But I’m calling BS on this one.

• Strong will - (one character) can resist mind control and mind-shutting down with difficulty.

There are no asterisks here. The power level of the telepath is not relevant. I find this claim ironic for someone who claimed I used “weak tactics” earlier.

I’ve shown at minimum that Buu already has high resistance to mental manipulation, if not immunity. This perk will amplify that resistance.

There are no telepaths or magicians in the DBZ universe anywhere close to Martian Manhunter in power and control. You've brought up nothing concrete at this point to avoid the inevitable conclusion that J'onn can just mind zap Buu into submission. He's mentally damaged Dr Destiny, a reality warper who was amped by the minds of 6 billion people at the time in JLA Classified #30.

It says right in the scan that he is helpless. This is a good feat because?

Nothing you've shown for Buu proves he would not be taken out by such an attack. He's stopped the entire Justice League dead in their tracks in JLA Classified #46.

This is a pretty good showing, although it says right there in the scan that it takes him great strain. And as far as I know, none of those characters are particularly resistant to TP. Buu is.

But I did find this gem reading through the issue:

Buu has shown no mental resistance feats anywhere near close enough to indicate he wouldn't be just as stopped as the League was. And J'onn has created a telepathic illusion in the mind of a reality warper long enough for Superman and Flash to depower him (JLA #51)

I’m not sure why you keep bringing up reality warping like it is mutually exclusive with telepathic defenses. It’s pretty much a trope that reality warpers typically have normal human physiology. The hard part is getting passed their incredible powers.

This guy has no telepathic defenses. He was a bum five minutes earlier. The Martian was easily able to read his mind and ultimately he still needed Flash to help shut him down. Flash ain’t here and Buu doesn’t have a brain.

And his illusion was only a distraction. Are you implying that the Martian can just project an illusion permanently in Buu’s mind and just walk away victorious? Even with the resistance he’s shown, my perk and the others there to help talk him out of it?

Nothing prevents J'onn from trapping Buu in an illusion of eating candy or stuck in his cocoon prison. It's highly unlikely that Kid Buu would emerge from all this and even if he did, J'onn can handle him telepathically as well. Even if the physical assault from Superman fails, J'onn's telepathy is guaranteed to shut Majiin Buu down.

I look forward to something showing that the Martian can “trap” Buu in an illusion without any continuing effort.

Why wouldn’t the Kid Buu persona come out if you toyed with his mind? Buu’s evil expelled himself from Fat Buu when he tried to turn good. Super Buu turned into Kid Buu when Fat Buu’s influence was removed. There are consequences for altering Buu’s mind.

Thanks to the Martian having trouble with characters with chaotic thought patterns, Fat Buu would be hard enough to control (if at all) but Kid Buu would more than likely be completely uncontrollable. Not to mention having greater ferocity and fighting ability. It’s a bad situation turned worse.

A physical assault is a most unwise strategy in my opinion. Buu has the fighting speed, strength, impact resistance, elasticity and unorthodox attacks that make a melee with him a nightmare for any combatant.

@lvenger Post is up. I really only have a short amount left to cover in a conclusion post.

@jloneblackheart: @lvenger:

How many more posts till we are done?

Lvenger and I never really agreed on anything, but I will wrap up with a counter/conclusion my next post.

Cool.

And it's pretty much written so once Lvenger posts, I should be able to just do my direct counters and post quickly.

Lvenger, if it saves you time I saw the scans of the Hector Hammond thing and I'll go back and check the issues again. It's an impressive feat of telepathy to surpass the psychic event horizon and not give into the emotional manipulation, but I still stand that he didn't control or even affect Mageddon in any way.

@lvenger You do plan to continue, correct? I think I only have one other Buu sleeping gif I could make.

@jloneblackheart: Oops, yeah I do. I'll start my concluding post tomorrow.

@lvenger

@lvenger: Bump

Will have it started and hopefully finished tomorrow morning.

@lvenger: Bump

@lvenger: Were you planning on one or two more posts? If only one, I could do my final first and save you some time.

... man. T4v.

@jloneblackheart: Um yeah one was the plan. I thought you said we should stick to one more post each anyway.

@lvenger: Ok, well I don't mind going first. I just don't know if you started yet. It's up to you. Just trying to save you some time if you're busy.