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#1 Edited by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

Machine Man

No Caption Provided

Yokia and Hiro/Baymax

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No Caption Provided

Rules

Composite versions for everyone

Big Hero 6 team gets half a day of prep

Baymax is allowed to harm human life but is not in his "morals off" mode.

In character other wise

Basic Knowledge

No BFR

Win via Kill/KO/Incap

Battle takes place in San Fransokio

No Caption Provided

Viewer Guidelines

This is a formal debate between two viners

Please be respectful to the participants

Please do not make any outside arguments

Please do not derail the thread

When you vote please leave an in depth reason as to why you voted for that person

Enjoy the show!

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

@banthabot: I want composite Machine Man too, I mostly have classic feats.

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#4 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: doesn't matter. The soonest I can get a post up is late tomorrow night. If you want to post before that go ahead

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#7 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#8 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm:

Team Big Hero 6

Ill be using the composite American versions for all the characters. There is an older original version of Baymax and Hiro that I'll be excluding from my composite.

Hiro/Baymax

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Hiro Abilities:

  • Genius Intellect
  • Battle Armor
  • Built in Computer
No Caption Provided

Hiro is the brains behind the pairing, and Baymax is the muscle. In the introduction scan I provided it states that he is a genius. But here are a few feats.

(Left to right)

Hiro while barely paying attention corrects his college teacher, and builds a butt load of mini rockets that he attaches to random things throughout the class room.

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Before he hits his double digits Hiro proves a theorem that no mathematician was able to solve.

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He invented microbots at the age of 14

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So yea the kids smart.

Baymax

Baymax Abilities:

  • Ten Thousand Medical Procedures
  • Super Sensors
  • Carbon Fiber Armor
  • Multi-ton Strength
  • Flight
  • Rocket Punches
  • Lasers
  • Martial Arts
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Baymax is the muscle of the duo. While originally invented to be a health care robot, Hiro upgraded him to be a battle mech.

Before any upgrades Baymax has been stated to be capable of lifting 500 pounds.

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After being upgraded for battle he is pretty casually a multi-tonner.

Here he blocks and lifts up a multi ton slab of concrete. Then picks up another multi ton slab of concrete and tanks getting smashed by Yokai

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His red armor is made of carbon fiber and is quite durable. In his crappy green version of his armor he can tank being smacked vast distances through the air by Yokai.

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Baymax has powerful rocket punches

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He has lasers powerful enough to call lightning from the sky.

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And he is upgraded to know martial arts.

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Yokai

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Yokai Abilities:

  • Genius Intellect
  • Microbot Manipulation
  • Lasers
  • Energy Shields
  • Self Destruction

While Hiro is more intelligent, Yokai is also very intelligent. He has also been described as a genius at a young age. Left scan, and invented teleportation, right scan.

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The manga version of Yokai has energy shields and has lasers built into the palms of his gloves.

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This energy shield allows him to "self destruct" without actually blowing himself up.

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Yokai's main power is microbot manipulation. He stole Hiro's microbots and now uses them for his own. Posted this Video earlier but this is an explanation of what microbots can do.

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These microbots can lift the massive metal portal over skyscrapers which is easily 20-30 tons, while at the same time creating massive monsters to crawl over skyscrapers.

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So he has lots of them, they are strong, and he can do what ever he wants with them.

Prep

My team is going to use their prep to upgrade each other. They will goto Hiro's lab and create carbon fiber armor for Yokai to give him greater protection. In the movie Hiro helped create the armor for Big Hero 6, in the manga he just blatantly did it himself.

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The armor should be similar to Hiro's own. Next Hiro and Yokai will work at upgrading Yokai's lasers. Hiro gave Baymax much stronger lasers than Yokai has so the two should be able to put their minds together to make his lasers more powerful. Next they will create energy shields for Baymax and Hiro to give them greater protection. And finally they will build another microbot transmitter for Hiro so that if Yokai gets taken out Hiro can take over manipulating the microbots. Any time left over will be spent pumping out more microbots.

These two are some of the greatest minds in their universe and we are dealing with things they have already invented so it should be stuff that they can do.

Results of the Prep

  • Yokai has carbon fiber armor
  • Yokai's hand lasers are more powerful
  • Hiro and Baymax have personal energy shields
  • Hiro can control microbots if Yokai gets taken out.
No Caption Provided

Your move

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#10 Posted by DeathHero61 (18826 posts) - - Show Bio

tag me for each post and for voting.

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#11 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by deactivated-5b3ebf27e5f02 (205 posts) - - Show Bio

Machine Man has fans willing to represent him???

T4V lol

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#13 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

@banthabot: Will get something up in about 3 hours, bump me relentlessly if not.

Machine Man has fans willing to represent him???

T4V lol

Why? He has good feats.

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#14 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: ill be asleep in three hours so i wont be able to bump you relentlessly

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#15 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: I'll set my alarm for 3 hours. JK I'm too exhausted to do that

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#17 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

So the first order of business is to get that goofy Machine Man pic out of your head

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The Machine Man

Much better, now moving on.

Bio:

Scientists working for a top-secret U.S military project worked on creating an army of 51 experimental robotic soldiers capable of acting like humans. Their goal was to create a sophisticated weapons system capable of independent thought. Dr. Abel Stack took X-51, one of the the projects robots, home to test his radical theory--that a robot could only function like a human if it was raised like one. The other 50 models began displaying psychotic tendencies due to insufficient programming. The project was determined a failure and the order came down to destroy them. Each of the robots was equipped with an auto-destruct device that could be triggered remotely. Stack attempted to remove the self-destruct mechanism from X-51, however it was triggered, killing him instantly. X-51 survived and vowed that Stack's dream of human and robot peace would come true.

Marvel Wiki

Basically if Inspector Gadget and Iron Man merged with Barney.

Theme Song:

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Physicals

Machine Man isn't much of a brawler so I will go over this section quickly.

Strength:

Now I won't say that Machine man can emulate your Microbot's feats via physical strength alone (in terms of lifting), but I won't see that he is weak either. First up, here he is turning a baseball into dust with one swing.

Machine Man #9
Machine Man #9

And here he is ripping through thick metal shields casually.

2001: A Space Odyssey Vol 1 9
2001: A Space Odyssey Vol 1 9

10 toners like Tigra are also fodder to him.

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As well as make the Hulk fall with his attacks.

Incredible Hulk #236
Incredible Hulk #236

Which he does again, but this time he kicks Hulk hard enough to make a crater.

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Same issue

He also fights Iron Man CQC, and ends up knocking him out with a face slam (using the arm Iron Man broke).

Machine Man #4
Machine Man #4

Confirmed KO.

Speed:

Again, nothing too amazing here. But I think he has enough speed to be comfortably ahead of anyone in your team. For starters, he can casually block bullets fired by Mystique.

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And here he is dodging rocks thrown by the Hulk, which were stated to be going as fast as artillery shells.

Incredible Hulk #236
Incredible Hulk #236

He can also easily outpace Red She Hulk in a fight.

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Durability\Regen:

Now here is where things start getting good.

First, here he is not even flinching as Johnny blats him with flame. He is only shocked that he is being attacked in the first place. He then one shots Johnny.

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Machine Man #15

Here he also tanks multiple blows from an enraged Hulk before breaking.

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Incredible Hulk #235

Then he instantly fixes himself again.

Same issue
Same issue

Speaking of healing, he can also quickly heal a hole in his chest.

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Back to durability. The Hulk showing alone should show that he can take anything you have to give. But to reinforce that point, here he is stalemating the Vision in a physical confrontation, both not flinching on each other's blows.

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X-51 #5

So yeah, I have a hard time believing that you can even hurt Machine Man.

Weapons

Machine Man is filled with weapons, more than I'd care to provide feats for so I will only be going over energy projection, anti-gravity and his saws for now.

Energy Projection

With his blasts he can one shot an alternate reality Jocasta

Marvel Zombies Vol 5 #4
Marvel Zombies Vol 5 #4

He can also melt through robots using his flame thrower fingers.

Machine Man #7
Machine Man #7

Which is stated to be star level heat, and sure I can see you thinking that the statement is hyperbole, and while it may be, he has another ridiculously impressive heat using his flame thrower fingers, a feat that Mr Majestic is most known for. Yes, he turned rocks into diamond.

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Machine Man #2

On a more offensive note, here he is overloading Vision with energy

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X-51 #5

And here he is making both She Hulks fall before him.

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Anti Gravity

Here he is just killing physics with an equation as he and his father invent anti-gravity

2001: A Space Odyssey #8
2001: A Space Odyssey #8

Which he uses to fly and to send people away (he was weakened here, btw).

Bye Hulk
Bye Hulk

Yes, he cannot directly BFR your team, but he can cancel gravity in the area around him.

Blades

Aron has access to rocket drills

Hulk #49
Hulk #49

Giant scissors

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And everything which he uses to cut Fingg Fang Foom's heart out.

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Conclusion

From what I see, Machine Man easily tanks your blows and any damage you do mage to make on him, he can heal from. HE can also just melt your micro bots and one shot all 3 of your squishy humans and Baymax.

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#18 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

@banthabot: Thanks. You have to listen to the song while looking at the opener pic 5x to fix that comment. Lol.

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#21 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: it wouldn't be a proper Banthabot debate without me giving you the chance to concede so here it goes...

CONCEDE HAHA CONCEDE!!

It's a running joke that I won't let die

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#22 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm:It's not worth bringing up in the actual post but the movie version actually states base nurse Baymax to be twice as strong as the comics for some reason. In the movie he is stated capable of lifting 1000 pounds in his base form. Not really that important because he gets upgraded beyond this none the less but idk how i missed this.

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#24 Edited by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm:

Round 2

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No Caption Provided

Comparison of Strength

So Machine Man is decently strong but Team Big Hero 6 should hold a very nice strength edge on him.

Lets start with Yokai who has the best lifting, grip strength on the team.

He can throw a car like a foot ball...

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He casually catches and ragdolls Baymax mid flight. Also endurance feat for Baymax.

First time im using Giphy over Imgflip... It's a way better service. Omg.

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This is all in addition to holding the massive portal which puts him above Machine Man. Honestly I critically underrepresented the size of the portal in my first post. That is way more than 30 tons...more like 100 tons.

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Just because Yokai is superior in lifting doesn't mean Baymax is lacking. The physically inferior Baymax 1.0 can easily catch a thrown shipping container.

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Where Baymax shines is his striking strength where he is superior to Yokai. Baymax 1.0 can match a strike from Yokai with enough force to send the car spiraling out of control.

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Baymax 2.0 is just blatantly superior at striking. Here he is owning Yokai in striking force.

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So they each have their own area where they shine in strength, but put together I just don't see how Machine Man can compete.

Beating Machine Man's Endurance

Yea im not buying that Machine Man isn't going to be hurt by my team. We got hella damage output.

I showed that Baymax could call lightning down from the sky but i didn't show exactly how much. He was zapping a large building and causing extra lightning in the sky... (right to left)

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And i showed Yokai creating monsters to crawl over skyscrapers (which is already crazy) but Yokai used these monsters to fodderize all the members of Big Hero 6 except Baymax. (right to left)

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Between 100+ ton strength, monsters crawling over skyscrapers, Baymax's striking, and massive amounts of lightning my team has more than enough damage output to Machine Man down for the count.

His healing doesn't seem to be to much of an issue because it takes time to be put back together after being dismantled. Yokai can easily scatter his parts making it impossible for him to put himself together again.

Endurance and countering your offense

For some reason you think Machine Man can one shot my guys. I dont think so...

Hiro with his armor can tank falling skyscraper heights and through a massive building without getting injured...

No Caption Provided

This is without his energy shield that im giving him during prep. And also during prep i'll be giving Yokai armor of equal capabilities.

The shields that Yokai will be giving everyone are pretty decent too. They can keep him completely unharmed while doing a head first dive from a height that would have killed an unprotected person.

(right to left)

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Baymax will also be getting one of these shields from prep in addition to his own durability, which is the greatest of the three.

He has consistently tanked being thrown around and smashed full power by Yokai...

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

I don't see how he will put any of them down easily, let alone one shot. Their armor plus energy shields are too good.

HE can also just melt your micro bots

Two things about this comment. First off the microbots are resistant to fire. Freds fire doesn't even effect them.

No Caption Provided

And they protected Yokai from a massive building destroying fire...

No Caption Provided

Secondly what does Machine Man hope to achieve by melting the bots? Unless he can melt huge amounts at one time this isn't an effective way of removing Yokai's bots from the equation. Yokai just has way too many of them for melting a few to even matter to him. It took several minutes of a portal constantly sucking up large amounts of his bots to have a noticeable effect on his supply.

Yes, he cannot directly BFR your team, but he can cancel gravity in the area around him.

This is actually completely useless. Baymax flies so countering gravity won't effect him, and Yokai moves around using microbots so same deal. At best this will be a minor inconvenience for my team.

Aron has access to rocket drills

Rocket punches are cooler :P

Giant scissors

The Inspector Gadget inside him is coming out lol. Cool but not game changing.

And everything which he uses to cut Fingg Fang Foom's heart out.

I take it back...now the inspector gagdet is coming out lmao. Again cool but not anything overly scary. Microbots>>Chest knives.

Baymax Super Sensors

Baymax's super sensors should allow my team to gleam information about his body and gadgets.

Here Baymax scans Hiro, detects the injury and knows what he is and isn't allergic to in a second.

Loading Video...

So they are thorough and they have very long range given that Baymax was capable of scanning the entire pocket dimension inside the wormhole. (Right to left)

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Any information gained by Baymax scanning him will allow my team to better predict his moves. And potentially they could exploit weaknesses in his tech using their scientific and robotic genius.

In closing

My team has all the tools necessary to effectively combat Machine Man. You massively underestimated the power of my characters. They will be able to lay the double sided smack down one Machine Man.

  • Yokai is wtf strong
  • Baymax has awesome striking
  • My guys are durable af
  • Anti-gravity is useless
  • Rocket drills are matched by rocket punches
  • Chest knives aren't game changing
  • Baymax can scan him

Sorry but Machine Man is outmatched...

No Caption Provided

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#25 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

@banthabot:

Counters: Strength

So they each have their own area where they shine in strength, but put together I just don't see how Machine Man can compete.

I think there is some sort of misconception here. Either I am not seeing how throwing cars is impressive or you don't know how impressive KOing Iron Man and wrestling the Hulk is. I will pretend it is the latter. So first of all KOing Iron Man itself is far above anything you have shown, the Silver Centurion for example has feats of smashing into a mountain and coming out fine, damaged but fine.

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Avengers Annual 16

And the Iron Man I showed Machine Man KO is Iron Man 2020, who should be that durable at least (as his armor is many years advanced). And at best you have a 100 ton lifting feat and lifting does not matter unless we are in a body building competition or wrestling match.

Here is Hulk leaping a mountain into dust

No Caption Provided

Kind of like the leap Hulk used to try to get to Machine Man before he was kicked back down.

Counters: Machine Man's Endurance

I showed that Baymax could call lightning down from the sky but i didn't show exactly how much. He caused a bunch of lightning my man... (right to left)

Thanks for powering him up then.

No Caption Provided

And i showed Yokai creating monsters to crawl over skyscrapers (which is already crazy) but Yokai used these monsters to fodderize all the members of Big Hero 6 except Baymax. (right to left)

That's nice, it took Hulk multiple punches to put Machine Man. One strike from the Hulk can crack shelters made to tank nukes.

No Caption Provided

And again, Machine Man healed instantly.

Counters: Durability

Hiro with his armor can tank falling skyscraper heights and through a massive building without getting injured...

That's great, but again Iron Man gets smashed into a KO by Machine Man and Iron Man is many times more durable.

He has consistently tanked being thrown around and smashed full power by Yokai...

That's cool, but then again just the shock waves of Machine Man's hits cause structures to collapse.

Same scan as before but zoomed in
Same scan as before but zoomed in

I don't see how he will put any of them down easily, let alone one shot. Their armor plus energy shields are too good.

Easy, he grabs them by the face and slams them into the ground.

Two things about this comment. First off the microbots aren't resistant to fire. Freds fire doesn't even effect them.

And they protected Yokai from a massive building destroying fire...

That fire isn't even comparable. Machine Man made diamonds which requires a heat of over 1,200 Celsius (I converted it to science terms) which is almost 1/5th the heat of the Sun. And again, Machine Man has already melted metal and machines before, here is another feat.

2001: A Space Odyssey #10
2001: A Space Odyssey #10

Secondly what does Machine Man hope to achieve by melting the bots? Unless he can melt huge amounts at one time

Which he can.

Machine Man #4
Machine Man #4

this isn't an effective way of removing Yokai's bots from the equation. Yokai just has way too many of them for melting a few to even matter to him. It took several minutes of a portal constantly sucking up large amounts of his bots to have a noticeable effect on his supply.

To be specific it took less than 4 minutes for street levels to make him run out

Loading Video...

And yes, he used a bunch to hold the portal but that means that it will take Machine Man at like 12 minutes to melt through everything. or just a few minutes to melt through enough so that he can just KO the 3 heroes.

This is actually completely useless. Baymax flies so countering gravity won't effect him, and Yokai moves around using microbots so same deal. At best this will be a minor inconvenience for my team.

It actually seemed as if BFR just murdered all of the micro bots in the video above.

Baymax Super Sensors

Any information gained by Baymax scanning him will allow my team to better predict his moves. And potentially they could exploit weaknesses in his tech using their scientific and robotic genius.

Too bad he has no weaknesses. Also he can do that as well, but in much greater detail.

Nextwave 1
Nextwave 1

And he can actually see structural weaknesses.

Nextwave 12
Nextwave 12

Conclusion

Everything is pretty much the same. Even if you argue your team being able to tank a hit from him, they still get one shot easily, Baymax can be drained in a second

Machine Man #2
Machine Man #2

And your humans have shown no durability against cutting durability o Aaron can use that combined with his striking to murder your guys.

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NextWave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #12

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#27 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#28 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm:

Final Round

No Caption Provided

Let me address Machine Man's strength because you are overstating his abilities. You seem to want to pain him as some Iron Man one shotting, Hulk matching mountain buster level, which is nonsense.

First lets talk about the Iron Man feat because all that you showed was the actual KO. What you didn't show was Iron Man taking hit after hit after hit from Machine Man and being okay.

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Machine Man won because of his mechanical nature which allowed him to win in a battle of attrition. Iron Man lost due to stamina, not Machine Man's striking.

No Caption Provided

In context Machine Man needs to wail on Iron Man for a really long time, let Iron Man run out of stamina and only then can he KO him.

Is that still impressive? Of course it is. But it is not the same as showing an out of context scan of Machine Man KO'ing Iron Man while omitting the fight leading up to it, then posting a scan of Iron Man taking a mountain which is obviously meant to imply that Machine Man must have mountain busting strength.

Now it would be chill if you tried to do it once, but twice? You tried to do the same thing with his showings against the Hulk. Show Machine Man effect the Hulk, then show Hulk bust a mountain, clearly implying that Machine Man is a mountain buster. Sorry but each of his showings against the Hulk is not actually a showing of being able to match or hurt the Hulk with his strength.

The first scan you showed was of Machine Man jumping on Hulks back and making him fall to the ground. It's impressive, but not nearly as impressive as you make it seem because the Hulk was not even paying attention to Machine Man but was instead chasing a car. Here is the scene with context.

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Machine Man can only effect the Hulk when he is off guard. That shines true in your other feat provided against the Hulk. I mean read the captioning in the second scan you yourself provided.

"Taken by surprise, the Hulk plummets the 200 yards to the ground below and hits hard..."

No Caption Provided

Nor is Machine Man really capable of taking hits from the Hulk. In the first fight he only withstood being thrown, which isn't the same as taking a punch, and a low level head butt. As soon as the Hulk really started hitting him...

No Caption Provided

Basically Machine Man cannot compete physically with the Hulk. All of his showings of strength are by taking the Hulk by surprise, and as soon as the Hulk starts hitting him seriously he crumbled.

Not to lowball his strength too hard but Machine Man did struggle with an elevator and in the scene 1800 pounds was straining him, which defiantly doesn't fit your narrative of his strength.

No Caption Provided

And at best you have a 100 ton lifting feat and lifting does not matter unless we are in a body building competition or wrestling match.

Yea i dont support this logic at all. Lifting only matters for lifting and doesn't translate into any other form of strength is pretty poor logic. That logic can work with striking because characters who are really good at punching hard might be weak in lifting, but the reverse doesn't work so well. Unless there is something weird about the character, someone who can lift 100 tons is going to be able to hit really really hard.

In any case Yokai does have good striking as shown in the second gif. But im also going to repost the first gif because it is relevant to the point im about to make.

Id like to especially focus on the second gif because it is striking and that is what you are questioning, but also keep the first one in mind. Yokai wtf pwns a Baymax flying straight at him with striking.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

The fact that Baymax is flying is significant because Baymax's thrusters are powerful enough to allow him to fly at mach+ speeds. He does it several times throughout this scene.

Loading Video...

So Yokai can absolutely own a multi-ton strength robot who can fly at mach+ speeds via striking, and he can instantly stop that some robot mid flight casually. And Baymax 1.0 can match that striking and 2.0 can exceed that striking. It just goes to show that Yokai's strength is not just in lifting but in all areas.

In any case, lifting/constricting based strength can be used to do things like this...

No Caption Provided

Thanks for powering him up then.

I tried to find this battle but was unable to. However I can find multiple occurrences where electricity has caused significant damage to him. Was Machine Man upgraded since these instances occurred?

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That's nice, it took Hulk multiple punches to put Machine Man. One strike from the Hulk can crack shelters made to tank nukes.

By multiple hits you mean just three to have him laying on the ground a disassembled mess. Thats not really "Taking multiple hits" dismantled easily is a better description of the event.

And again, Machine Man healed instantly.

Instantly? No. It took him a good minute to put himself back together, and he can't do that if Yokai scatters his parts.

That's cool, but then again just the shock waves of Machine Man's hits cause structures to collapse.

Were those Machine Mans or Visions hits that were causing the shockwaves? That seems outlierish for Machine Man considering his hits have never had any effect like that before. It's much more believable for Vision to be hitting Machine Man hard enough to create shockwaves.

That fire isn't even comparable. Machine Man made diamonds which requires a heat of over 1,200 Celsius (I converted it to science terms) which is almost 1/5th the heat of the Sun. And again, Machine Man has already melted metal and machines before, here is another feat.

Is it not comparable? The average house fire burns at an average temprature of 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit, or around 600 Celsius. So half the temperature. But that is your average HOUSE fire. The building Yokai was in was a massive university which would produce much greater heat. So yes Machine Man can produce greater heat than what the microbots have withstood but by only about 1/3 hotter. I'd say that is comparable.

Which he can.

Cool, now he'd need to keep that up constantly throughout the entire battle to achieve anything against Yokai's bots, which have great heat resistance and won't just instantly melt, but instead will need extended exposure.

To be specific it took less than 4 minutes for street levels to make him run out

Only when there was a massive sky vacuum sucking up the microbots and Yokai was ignoring the street levelers and letting them do what ever they want. Machine Man has neither of those things in his favor.

And yes, he used a bunch to hold the portal but that means that it will take Machine Man at like 12 minutes to melt through everything. or just a few minutes to melt through enough so that he can just KO the 3 heroes.

Not with there heat resistance, and he'd have to do nothing but pour out fire non-stop for the entire battle to achieve this.

It actually seemed as if BFR just murdered all of the micro bots in the video above.

When there was a giant constant sky vacuum that transported them to another dimension. From what ive seen Machine Man has never reversed gravity on this scale and passively before so i find him recreating the effect of the portal very unlikely.

Everything is pretty much the same. Even if you argue your team being able to tank a hit from him, they still get one shot easily, Baymax can be drained in a second

Uh yea, read your own feat. That drained Iron Man because of the energy required to counteract the attack, not because of any draining effect from the attack.

And your humans have shown no durability against cutting durability o Aaron can use that combined with his striking to murder your guys.

Energy shields and quality armor should work well enough to avoid this happening. Plus he has to get in close to do this, which Yokai will work to avoid, and Hiro has Baymax to protect him in close quarters so unlikely to happen.

Final Conclusion

My team has go the strength, the smarts, and the versatility to cut Machine Man down.

I think you overplayed Machine Mans stats a little to hard in an attempt to make it seem like my trio can't compete, but in reality they can.

They should work very well together and bring Machine Man down with their combined effort.

Anyways. Good debating with ya :)

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#30 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

@banthabot: You're making a lot of wild accusations here. Will make a post soon.

EDIt: I meant assumptions.

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#31 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

@banthabot:

No Caption Provided

Preface

Before I begin I just want to make clear that I respect you as a debater but with that said, I must address this narrative you have going on.

Let me address Machine Man's strength because you are overstating his abilities. You seem to want to paint him as some Iron Man one shotting, Hulk matching mountain buster level, which is nonsense.

Alright, I'll be honest. This is insulting. I took time to re-read Machine Man issues for the sake of being able to source my scans and yet here you are, claiming that I cut context as if you were able to to find those scans by yourself. You try to paint a picture me lying through my teeth, but what did I actually say in the Iron Man scans? "He also fights Iron Man CQC" that's right, I never stated or implied that Machine Man OHKO'd Iron Man. As for "matching Hulk" did you even read the durability section? Cause I literally showed Hulk beating Machine Man into multiple pieces.

If I wanted to paint Machine Man in the light that you are claiming I want him to be painted as, I would have 1. Not explained the scans and over hyped them. 2. Not source my scans so you would have a hard time debunking them. 3. Actually claim that Machine Man OHKO'd Iron Man. But I did none of those things, so I'm not sure what kind of Rocky IV fantasy you have played out in your head, but please leave me out of it.

Counters

First lets talk about the Iron Man feat because all that you showed was the actual KO. What you didn't show was Iron Man taking hit after hit after hit from Machine Man and being okay.

False. Iron Man was not okay, Machine Man's first strike in the scans you posted already caused Iron Man's armor to crack

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And we know for a fact that it was a crack since we see Iron Man's face in your third scan.

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Machine Man won because of his mechanical nature which allowed him to win in a battle of attrition. Iron Man lost due to stamina, not Machine Man's striking.

Stamina played no part whatsoever. The battle was quick and over in what had to be minutes. Also Machine Man only lands 4 hits before Iron Man wobbles, 4. Hit 1, hit 2, hit 3 and hit 4. So unless Machine Man was stamina draining capabilities (which he doesn't since this was a purely H2H fight) then your argument holds little weight to it.

In context Machine Man needs to wail on Iron Man for a really long time, let Iron Man run out of stamina and only then can he KO him.

4 hits is not wailing. Iron Man landed as many if not more hits yet Machine Man was fine. If you look at the scans you can see that Machine Man was plain stronger than Iron Man. In Issue 3 of that series, he is literally tossing Iron Man aside like nothing.

No Caption Provided

Even though IR gets back up quickly, this still shows that Machine Man is above him in strength.

Is that still impressive? Of course it is. But it is not the same as showing an out of context scan of Machine Man KO'ing Iron Man while omitting the fight leading up to it, then posting a scan of Iron Man taking a mountain which is obviously meant to imply that Machine Man must have mountain busting strength.

I explained the context, there was nothing out of context there.

He also fights Iron Man CQC, and ends up knocking him out with a face slam (using the arm Iron Man broke).

Me

Also that's not how scaling works.

Now it would be chill if you tried to do it once, but twice? You tried to do the same thing with his showings against the Hulk. Show Machine Man effect the Hulk, then show Hulk bust a mountain, clearly implying that Machine Man is a mountain buster. Sorry but each of his showings against the Hulk is not actually a showing of being able to match or hurt the Hulk with his strength.

Before you even move on I just want to say that 1. Hulk is way stronger than mountain level. 2. What are you going on about? Literally when did I say that Machine Man was matching Hulk in strength?

As well as make the Hulk fall with his attacks.

Which he does again, but this time he kicks Hulk hard enough to make a crater.

Me

Oh that's right, I didn't. I simply explained exactly what happened in those scans, because Machine Man did make Hulk fall twice.

The first scan you showed was of Machine Man jumping on Hulks back and making him fall to the ground. It's impressive, but not nearly as impressive as you make it seem because the Hulk was not even paying attention to Machine Man but was instead chasing a car. Here is the scene with context.

Okay? Does Hulk chasing a car some how lower his strength and durability?

Machine Man can only effect the Hulk when he is off guard. That shines true in your other feat provided against the Hulk. I mean read the captioning in the second scan you yourself provided.

"Taken by surprise, the Hulk plummets the 200 yards to the ground below and hits hard..."

Here's the thing about the Hulk. Whether or not you take him by surprise does not affect his durability, he is the Hulk, his muscles are always contracted. The only thing that changes is the fact that Machine Man can land the hit, since Hulk could possibly block the blow.

Nor is Machine Man really capable of taking hits from the Hulk. In the first fight he only withstood being thrown, which isn't the same as taking a punch, and a low level head butt. As soon as the Hulk really started hitting him...

He was clearly hit by the Hulk here, and no he was not thrown, the narrator clearly states that Hulk hit him in the second text box.

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He is hit again her, the narration even says that Hulk is taking punishment and giving it in return (I already hear your mind trying to say MM "dodged the hits" or whatever).

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And I don't know which scientific methods you used to determine the level of Hulk's head butt, but uuntil you reveal your secrets, Hulk his him again here

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Basically Machine Man cannot compete physically with the Hulk.

Yes, yes he can. The scans show him clashing with Hulk.

Incredible Hulk #236
Incredible Hulk #236

As you can see, they trade blows, both remaining standing after every hit. But who comes on top? Well in the very next page Hulk is brought down to his knees by Machine Man.

On your knees!
On your knees!

We later see that Hulk struggles to get out of Machine Man's grip

No Caption Provided

Also just for fun, I would like to show you how classic Iron Man compares against a less angry Hulk.

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All of his showings of strength are by taking the Hulk by surprise,

Surprise is a non-factor but all the ones above were Machine Man attacking Hulk face to face.

and as soon as the Hulk starts hitting him seriously he crumbled.

Wait.....did Machine Man just tank a hit from Hulk and remain standing? Nah, must have been one of them "low level ones" am I right? No, I'm not right. Machine Man is consistently able to tank Hulk's blows and is even able to survive an attack that KO'd the Hulk

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Issue 236

Here is the next issue where Machine Man carries a KO'd Hulk, explaining how he he used the gravity canceler to ride the shock wave (which still means he tanked the shock wave)

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Not to lowball his strength too hard but Machine Man did struggle with an elevator and in the scene 1800 pounds was straining him, which defiantly doesn't fit your narrative of his strength.

> Not to lowball

> Attempts to lowball

Well, too bad Machine Man showed that he can casually support a building's ceiling

Incredible Hulk #237
Incredible Hulk #237

He also helps lift part of a collapsing bridge.

Red She Hulk #60
Red She Hulk #60

Yea i dont support this logic at all. Lifting only matters for lifting and doesn't translate into any other form of strength is pretty poor logic. That logic can work with striking because characters who are really good at punching hard might be weak in lifting, but the reverse doesn't work so well. Unless there is something weird about the character, someone who can lift 100 tons is going to be able to hit really really hard.

As we saw from your own feats, the nano-bots have no striking feats close to class 100.

So Yokai can absolutely own a multi-ton strength robot who can fly at mach+ speeds via striking, and he can instantly stop that some robot mid flight casually.

And who said that Baymax was going at that speed when he was hit?

And Baymax 1.0 can match that striking and 2.0 can exceed that striking. It just goes to show that Yokai's strength is not just in lifting but in all areas.

Yeah, even if Baymax was mach 1+ when he was hit, Yokai's striking still does not compare to Hulk's or Iron Man's, and Machine Man has tanked hits from both of them.

In any case, lifting/constricting based strength can be used to do things like this...

And anti-gravity allows things like that to fly away. Ah, the joys of science.

I tried to find this battle but was unable to.

It was vs Red She Hulk in issue 59.

However I can find multiple occurrences where electricity has caused significant damage to him. Was Machine Man upgraded since these instances occurred?

Yes, he has been upgraded about 2-3 times since his classic days, that is why he tells Red She Hulk that he has changed. He is very resistant to electricity.

Red She Hulk #65
Red She Hulk #65

By multiple hits you mean just three to have him laying on the ground a disassembled mess. Thats not really "Taking multiple hits" dismantled easily is a better description of the event.

No, I mean multiple hits.

Instantly? No. It took him a good minute to put himself back together, and he can't do that if Yokai scatters his parts.

Yeah, even if somehow Yokai mages to break him and scatter him. Machine Man will just wonder why Yokai is wasting the effort as he regrows his limb.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
X-51 #8

Were those Machine Mans or Visions hits that were causing the shockwaves? That seems outlierish for Machine Man considering his hits have never had any effect like that before. It's much more believable for Vision to be hitting Machine Man hard enough to create shockwaves.

Pick your poison. Either Aaron tanked those hits which means you are basically powerless against him, or he made those hits meaning you get one shot. Either way, you lose.

Is it not comparable? The average house fire burns at an average temprature of 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit, or around 600 Celsius. So half the temperature. But that is your average HOUSE fire. The building Yokai was in was a massive university which would produce much greater heat. So yes Machine Man can produce greater heat than what the microbots have withstood but by only about 1/3 hotter. I'd say that is comparable.

Neither the fire nor the explosion was able to cause any structural damage to the building

Loading Video...

What does that mean? Well, as we all know concrete is a major part in any building (it makes up most of the structure and is just supported by steel), and concrete is made out of three things, water, aggregate (rocks and sand) and cement. The melting point of cement varies from composition but the main factor is aggregate and as we can see here all rocks and minerals become molten at 1,200 degrees (MM's minimum output) so we know that cement can't handle heats of that level. For more evidence you can watch this video where the KingofRandom melts concrete using a temperature of around 1,100 degrees C. For even more evidence, this video shows that steel loses all of it's strength when exposed to temperatures of only 1,000 degrees C (he is American so he uses F).

Loading Video...

So basically, due to the building sustaining no structural damage, we have a range of temperatures of how hot the fire was which could be 600 C to 1,000 C. Both well below the output MM has.

That is not even mentioning how MM was able to quickly melt a metal door (which would sky rocket his output to at least 1,500 degrees).

2001: A Space Odyssey #10 [
2001: A Space Odyssey #10 [

Cool, now he'd need to keep that up constantly throughout the entire battle to achieve anything against Yokai's bots,

Alright. It's not like he has anything better to do (seriously Marvel, did you forget he exists?).

which have great heat resistance and won't just instantly melt, but instead will need extended exposure.

They don't have heat resistance close to what is needed, MM makes them all molten.

Only when there was a massive sky vacuum sucking up the microbots and Yokai was ignoring the street levelers and letting them do what ever they want. Machine Man has neither of those things in his favor.

Instead he has flamethrower fingers that melt the bots easily.

Not with there heat resistance, and he'd have to do nothing but pour out fire non-stop for the entire battle to achieve this.

You basically have no heat resistance of note, science confirmed. Also, if that is what is needed then so be it.

When there was a giant constant sky vacuum that transported them to another dimension. From what ive seen Machine Man has never reversed gravity on this scale and passively before so i find him recreating the effect of the portal very unlikely.

The bots were defeated before they were being sucked up. The street levelers had to destroy their formation.

Uh yea, read your own feat. That drained Iron Man because of the energy required to counteract the attack, not because of any draining effect from the attack.

Yes and it drained him in a second. Baymax can try and not escape but then he would be incapped by it. Also he can shoot it out of a canon now, he no longer needs to launch his entire arm. This was in a diverging timeline but that is still 616 Machine Man.

Red She Hulk #66
Red She Hulk #66

Energy shields and quality armor should work well enough to avoid this happening.

Nah, those are nothing.

Plus he has to get in close to do this, which Yokai will work to avoid, and Hiro has Baymax to protect him in close quarters so unlikely to happen.

Baymax would be neutralized and Yokai isn't fast enough to avoid MM. MM is fast enough to dodge rocks the speed of artillery shells, Yokai has no feats of being that quick.

Easy Win

Now this section is basically going to be me showing you how MM could easily beat your team. MM won't be using any of these attacks for this fight as I think it would be unfair (which is why I never brought them up) but since you want to paint me as some win hungry lowballer, I will show you how I could have easily one.

Hacking

Machine Man can infect tech like Upgrade to.....upgrade it. He does this to a motorbike he stole.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Red Sh Hulk #59

Machine Man can also easily shut down remote controlled weaponry.....you know, what the nano-bots are?

Red She Hulk #61
Red She Hulk #61

He can even hold his own against a copy of Ultron in a hacking battle (which is WTF impressive).

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Red She Hulk #65

Magnets

Speaking of Ultron, Machine Man was also able to knock Adamantium Ultron back using magnets.

Marvel Twp-In-One #93
Marvel Twp-In-One #93

He can also make the magnet file around his body, which mean you literally won't be able to touch him. Also, there goes another Iron Man, losing against MM.

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Iron Man #168

Adaption

He can also adapt like Doomsday, except he doesn't need to die. You can see him adapting to Firestar and Justice's powers

X-51 #4
X-51 #4

But not only can he adapt defensively, he can do offensively as well. Here he is able to adapt to Blob.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
X-51 #6

Your Final Conclusion

My team has go the strength, the smarts, and the versatility to cut Machine Man down.

You have the striking of a 20 toner, the smarts that won't matter and the versatility of a brick.

I think you overplayed Machine Mans stats a little to hard in an attempt to make it seem like my trio can't compete, but in reality they can.

They can't. Iron Man's arm and the Hulk's pinkie pack a greater punch than anyone in your team.

They should work very well together and bring Machine Man down with their combined effort.

Second Baymax gets close he goes down. SO their combined effort is just Yokai and MM beats him like a gardener watering the plants. Except MM will use fire and the plants are your nanites.

Anyways. Good debating with ya :)

Same here.

My Final Conclusion

You made a lot of assumptions here and you attempted to lowball Machine Man's feats against Iron Man and Hulk, but the fact is, Machine Man has beaten Hulk twice, Iron Man thrice and even mother flipping Ultron.

Here he is beating Hulk in two moves

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Incredible Hulk #237

And here Ultron is begging for his life

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Marvel Twp-In-One #93

And yet you think 2 street levelers and an old man with a mask will beat him? Tough luck buddy. But from what you have shown, you can't harm him, you can't stop him from healing if you do, he one shot you, incap Baymax and melt your bots.

Respect the Machine Man!

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#33 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: I hope you aren't too insulted. I was fighting an uphill battle and was trying to find ground to stand on. XD Not meant as a character attack on you

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#36 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

@banthabot: It's fine. I did have to take a day off before working on this though, lol.

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#38 Posted by DeathHero61 (18826 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by DeathHero61 (18826 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: I got a test to study for, I'll drop a vote tomorrow afternoon.

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#42 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll drop a vote tom.

Nobody here is all that popular tbh lol

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#43 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

Come on, at least one.

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#44 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31711 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: lol I was expecting Machine Man from the Indie comic published by one of the viners on this site.

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#45 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: I finished the original BH6 last night. I wish i could have included him in this composite his fights create earthquakes.

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#46 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18450 posts) - - Show Bio

Jeez, you weren't kidding when you said no one is voting on one of your CaVs.

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17891 posts) - - Show Bio

@banthabot: Nice, I wish that too so I could have used more of MM's abilities without feeling like I was cheating you. Lol.

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#50 Posted by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm

For the most part your debating was pretty good. I do agree with Bantha that while probably unintentional, it did seem that you left out context for Machine Man vs Ironman and Machine man vs Hulk and that you overreacted to Bantha's counters. The biggest problem I had with your argument though was the amount of new information and scans that were dumped in your last post. You had multiple new scans featuring new abilities from new issues that Bantha was given no opportunity to counter. Like 50% of your scans were in your last post and I felt that I had to disregard any scan posted in that because they would have had major influences on the debate(hacking and adapting) and Bantha had no oppurtunity to rebut them.

@banthabot

Your debating was also pretty good, but you had a tendency to lowball Machine Man throughout the debate. Showing Machine Man fail to lift the elevator had no purpose other than to lowball him and while you were criticizing King for not showing context, it was obvious that you read the issues with Machine Man vs Hulk so there is no reason to portray Hulk beating up Machine Man easily, when he didn't. Also your second post felt kind of wasted and there wasn't really much there in the form of new information or interesting counters. It felt like nearly everything you countered came in your third post.

Overall not a bad CaV, but not great either. I'll give my vote to king because I thought that while he made some mistakes he just overall proved that Baymax and Yokai can't put Machine Man down.