Put simply, you are either a master troll, or unbelievably obtuse. I have rarely seen more incoherent gibberish on CV these days.
Bro, you don't even understand what uniform distribution is - not able to recognise the difference between a widespread Force Wave and a precise Force grip. You claimed that Dooku could rag doll Kenobi given his ability to rag doll inanimate objects; such as starships, and you think that Anakin's absence prevents Kenobi from the same fate that befell him in ROTS.
You lack the sophistic ability and the raw intelligence to argue the absurd stances you take up. There's nothing else to say except to give you a spanking the next time it happens, you biased little fanboy.
After reading that troll post of yours I can safely say that my little finger has infinitely more raw intelligence than your entire cognitive system, lmao.
You lack the capacity to even troll properly, let alone make an argument that has the slightest bit of merit.
Rounds 3 and 5 are foregone conclusions, as we've seen what happens when ROTS Obi-Wan takes on Grievous and Dooku. Kit Fisto would be a less helpful ally than Anakin in the fight against Dooku, and so I'd suggest that round 5 ends even more unfavourably for Obi-Wan than the fight between Dooku, Anakin and Obi-Wan did.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about. I presume you have only played KoToR games or read some Karpyshyn novels, and then have seen GIF's of force users pushing each other about in TCW and conclude that "lesser force shields are staple defense mech" But yeah, "lesser force shields" literally are almost useless against force based attacks.
It literally doesn't matter what specific mechanics pertain to Force defences. The outcome is always the same.
Although you recognise that passive force barriers are a concept explained in Legends content - and not literally contradicted by any counter-explanation in canon - but I respect that there are going to be inconsistencies. However... they aren't of consequence. The fact is, Dooku still grabbed Kenobi through the Force - while engaging Anakin - and hurled him so hard that he was knocked unconscious (without even hitting his head). Wether Kenobi wasn't strong enough in the Force, or simply didn't have quick enough reactions to defend himself is of not of importance. The result is, and will always will, remain the same. There is no reason to assume that Kenobi will be quick enough the next time Dooku decides to dispose of him. Just because rational thought doesn't occur before gaging another mouthful on your Kenobi themed dildo, doesn't change the outcome of this fight 10 out of 10 times.
The ironic thing here is that LOTL - despite questioning my own (obviously better) cognitive capacity - admits that Kenobi isn't quick enough to rebuke Dooku's force attack when referring the junior novel :
Lastly, I seriously wonder as to your cognitive capacity when you are unable to comprehend that this sentence means that Obi Wan was not able to put up a defense in time.
To that, concession accepted :
Lordofthelol's excuse ^ Dooku can't ragdoll Kenobi while Anakin is attacking him
Obi Wan is extremely vulnerable when fighting alongside Anakin against force users.
It is a apparently an "extreme factor" against Kenobi that Anakin was there to press Dooku while the latter locked his master in a force choke and slammed him so hard that his nervous system went to sleep. His "logic" is to capitalise on the generally inconsistent fighting sequences found in TCW - using selective examples to persist that Anakin and Obi Wan aren't actually better as a team, in spite of what the ROTS novel implies. He does this without understanding that the show really doesn't follow any structural logic itself (unlike the tier system by Gillard) and as we can see with the behind the scenes commentary, is pretty much based around the whims of it's director, Dave Filoni, who creates on-the-fly circumstances to support his work, giving us a mismatch of unorganised occurrences such as :
What he also doesn't understand is that Kenobi performing better without Anakin isn't even a regular theme for TCW. For example - his first fight against the revived Maul and Savage, when left to his own devices against Cad Bane and of course this little tidbit ( unfinished season 7 projects are confirmed to be canonical by Hidalgo) :
So were left with a simple question : does Anakin's absence ensure Kenobi won't get force choked by Dooku? The answer : I don't see a single reason why it should.
LOTL Argument #2 - Dooku can't Force choke Kenobi because this happened :
Fact : Explosive waves are subject to uniform distribution. That means Kenobi only protects himself against the fraction of the wave that actually hits him. The equation = the size of the wave divided by the surface area of Kenobi's body. If the Wave is big enough to hit precisely eight people, then he only has to defend against a eighth of it's power. As the above, everyone next to/directly behind him is incapacitated - which is very likely the intended purpose of Dooku's force attack.
Not a fact :
He is being hit with nearly half the wave's power. He defends it while being staggered back only a step or two.
Not even remotely true. The wave was big enough to incap everyone next to and behind him, despite his shield. Then You also have to consider the gaps between the soldiers. If Kenobi was capable protecting everyone at once with his barrier, then you might have a reliable comparison - but as it stands he's only making effort to protect his own mass against a force wave hurtling towards multiple targets. So what exactly is the reasoning here? That Kenobi was being hit with half of the wave - while anakin was being hit with the other half - and all the soldiers around them were being hit with separate halves of the wave too...? There appears more halves than fit into one whole. And here's the red note that makes you such a walking meme on kmc. You don't have a good enough grasp of logic and argumentation to push the kind of devils advocate stances you fantasise about. You just look like a sad little fanboy (and you are), only here your contending against someone who's generally thought to be better than you.
As a secondary point, you have to consider that Kenobi has more time to react against the above - considering the distance - as oppose to both times Dooku rolled him in CQC. And of course, Force chokes are different from force pushes/waves alltoether, which you ironically admit:
A force "grip" or "force choke" is directed at a single opponent. Force pushes always have side effects.
Concession accepted. Thanks for doing me the favour of admitting my premises a second time. It's no wonder everyone of repute has you a tier below me when it comes to discussing these things. It's no wonder why I don't see these horrible types of augments on KMC.
So now, if you are capable of basic mathematics, you would know that had Dooku directed his power on Obi Wan alone, the distance staggered would simply have been doubled.
If you're capable of anything other than blind fanboyism, you would understand that dooku has directed his power at Kenobi alone. The ordeal left him once on his ass and a second time sleeping under a broken metal platform. This will happen every time a hypothetical match up appears featuring them and everyone on the forum will agree. Don't get too upset because Kenobi is your favourite character though. I know that's hard considering how upset you've displayed yourself to be on this thread.
What even is this humongous difference between beginning and end of RotS Kenobi? What suggests end of RotS Kenobi is good enough to get to Mace?
There is none. In the ROTS novel, Kenobi begins the Mustafar fight hindered (due to his affection for Anakin) he overcomes that hinderance mid fight, and Lord of the Lol played it off as some sort of permanent power up.
Ah, I see. Yeah, him being hindered on Mustafar then letting go of the hindrance doesn't equate to an actual power up nor would it put him above Dooku.
Although you recognise that passive force barriers are a concept explained in Legends content -
Has this actually been stated in a source? It's obviously logical- or else everyone would be pushing everyone in every fight- but has it legitimately been explained?
Right, so you are probably BioDynamicApe. Last time we engaged, it ended with me literally crushing the crap out of your "legitimate" arguments in the Kenobi vs Bane thread and you throwing a gigantic temper tantrum which this conversation is beginning to go towards.
It literally doesn't matter what specific mechanics pertain to Force defences. The outcome is always the same.
Although you recognise that passive force barriers are a concept explained in Legends content - and not literally contradicted by any counter-explanation in canon - but I respect that there are going to be inconsistencies. However... they aren't of consequence. The fact is, Dooku still grabbed Kenobi through the Force - while engaging Anakin - and hurled him so hard that he was knocked unconscious (without even hitting his head). Wether Kenobi wasn't strong enough in the Force, or simply didn't have quick enough reactions to defend himself is of not of importance. The result is, and will always will, remain the same. There is no reason to assume that Kenobi will be quick enough the next time Dooku decides to dispose of him. Just because no rational thought occurs before gaging another mouthful of your Kenobi themed dildo doesn't change the outcome of this fight 10 out of 10 times.
The ironic thing here is that LOTL - despite questioning my own (obviously better) cognitive capacity - admits that Kenobi isn't quick enough to rebuke Dooku's force attack when referring the junior novel :
Your cognitive capacity matches that of your previous username - That of an ape. In fact, I have doubts as to even that, but let's not go there.
You still haven't responded to the fact that Kenobi does much worse against the same opponents when he is with Anakin than he does alone, and he will not have the same hindrance when fights Dooku alone.
I literally called you out on this point several times and you, like the dumbass you are, do not choose to respond adequately here. Because you know that all you have done is "pretend" to act like an alpha, thinking it will mask your terrible logic and "less than functional" brain.
Another point you missed( or deliberately stated wrong) is that Dooku didn't knock Kenobi out by hurling him. He knocked him out by literally dropping the edge of a huge metallic balcony right on Kenobi's head which only caused a small bump. He was not knocked out till that happened.
Do us both a favor, and stop jerking off to the statement "Dooku grabbed Kenobi in the force" and throwing it around like it is a lifesaver that will protect you from the ass-kicking you are about to receive. Because it really won't.
It is a apparently an "extreme factor" against Kenobi that Anakin was there to press Dooku while the latter locked his master in a force choke and slammed him so hard that his nervous system went to sleep. His "logic" is to capitalise on the generally inconsistent fighting sequences found in TCW - using selective examples to persist that Anakin and Obi Wan aren't actually better as a team, in spite of what the ROTS novel implies. He does this without understanding that the show really doesn't follow any structural logic itself (unlike the tier system by Gillard) and as we can see with the behind the scenes commentary, is pretty much based around the whims of it's director, Dave Filoni, who creates on-the-fly circumstances to support his work, giving us a mismatch of unorganised occurrences such as :
What he also doesn't understand is that Kenobi performing better without Anakin isn't even a regular theme for TCW. For example - his first fight against the revived Maul and Savage, when left to his own devices against Cad Bane and of course this little tidbit ( unfinished season 7 projects are confirmed to be canonical by Hidalgo) :
In other words, you are a dumbass incapable of producing an argument other than "Boo hoo, the creators of the show have destroyed any chance I have of not looking like a total retard in this debate by actually showing so many examples in favor of my opposition's points so I have to shift the brunt of the blame on them now".
And yeah, there are a ton of people in real life who do not work well in teams than they do alone. There are tennis players who are fabulous when they go solo, simply because they do not have to rely on and cover for a partner. Because they can respond to their opposition's attacks and defenses without having to "rely" on a partner and without having to watch their backs, and at the same time synchronizing well with their partner as to how to play out the entire game including its strategies and intricacies. Likewise, there are people who work fabulously well with a partner simply because they "have the knack" of doing those things.
In his "first fight" against the revived Maul and Savage the director of the show in Filoni confirmed that he was mentally hindered right from the start. He then gets beaten up by "both" of them after they gang up on him. Even then, he is "winning" against Maul, landing two kicks and spinning him with the force like a toy, till Maul unbalances him fully. Perhaps you might have not known the former circumstance as I do, but really, there is no excuse for not knowing the latter two circumstances here.
As for Grevious, he still got his ass kicked in ROTS, so I'd take that either as an inconsistency, or a massive improvement for Kenobi. Either way, your ass still gets kicked.
So you are left with the singular example of Cad Bane. While laughable on its own, it does not stand up to the huge number of other examples which contradict your claims.
So were left with a simple question : does Anakin's absence ensure Kenobi won't get force choked by Dooku? The answer : I don't see a single reason why it should.
Addressed and debunked long ago. Not that I expect that you have the cognitive capacity to understand.
Fact : Explosive waves are subject to uniform distribution. That means Kenobi only protects himself against the fraction of the wave that actually hits him. The equation = the size of the wave divided by the surface area of Kenobi's body. If the Wave is big enough to hit precisely eight people, then he only has to defend against a eighth of it's power. As the above, everyone next to/directly behind him is incapacitated - which is very likely the intended purpose of Dooku's force attack.
Not even remotely true. The wave was big enough to incap everyone next to and behind him, despite his shield. Then You also have to consider the gaps between the soldiers. If Kenobi was capable protecting everyone at once with his barrier, then you might have a reliable comparison - but as it stands he's only making effort to protect his own mass against a force wave hurtling towards multiple targets. So what exactly is the reasoning here? That Kenobi was being hit with half of the wave - while anakin was being hit with the other half - and all the soldiers around them were being hit with separate halves of the wave too...? There appears more halves than fit into one whole. And here's the red note that makes you such a walking meme on kmc. You don't have a good enough grasp of logic and argumentation to push the kind of devils advocate stances you fantasise about. You just look like a sad little fanboy (and you are), only here your contending against someone who's generally thought to be better than you.
Yeah, this might have merit, if the creators of the show would actually stick to the laws of physics religiously.
Here's a different way of looking at it: Ventress and Anakin( mid TCW) are comparable enough in the force. So, when Ventress hits him with an exactly similar force wave as Dooku does here, when there also happen to be targets around him, he is also staggered back an equal amount as he is in this instance.
So, does this mean that they are "not" comparable? No. Does this mean that an "eight" of Ventress's power is greater than Anakin's power? No.
Here's the thing which proves your stupidity and incapability: The inability to recognize the situation as it is portrayed. Going strictly by the laws of physics, or strict logic, I too can make outlandish claims. For example, SC has Obi Wan pushing Maul back with such strength, that it makes Maul's legs whine. Now, I too can claim that Maul has a much more muscular body than Obi Wan, and has obviously trained physically with a much greater intensity than Obi Wan has. Yet, it is Obi Wan who had the advantage in strength in that encounter. So, obviously Obi Wan's force power is far greater, since he can augment himself to a much greater extent than Maul can, with respect to his muscular mass.
You are probably scratching your head like an ape after reading that, so read it several times. Eventually you will get it.
When you do, you would understand the foolishness of expecting a fictional universe to "strictly" adhere to the laws of physics. In case you actually believe that, then do concede that Obi Wan has far better force augmentation than Maul, and I can bring up countless examples like that into the picture.
Else, and this is where your critical thinking is nonexistent. You are unable to understand that the sequence in S6 was meant to show that Obi Wan and Anakin can defend themselves against Dooku's attack just fine, should they try to resist it. The stage was set for such events, when they tried to show Anakin and Ventress in an exactly similar situation, with the same result.
With the intent that "Anakin blocking Ventress's force wave, despite it being a wave" was meant to show that Anakin and Ventress are comparable enough in the force.
Else, yeah sure, you can assert that Anakin is less powerful than a mere fraction of Ventress's power. But don't expect anyone to take you seriously after that.
If you're capable of anything other than blind fanboyism, you would understand that dooku has directed his power at Kenobi alone. The ordeal left him once on his ass and a second time sleeping under a broken metal platform. This will happen every time a hypothetical match up appears featuring them and everyone on the forum will agree. Don't get too upset because Kenobi is your favourite character though. I know that's hard considering how upset you've displayed yourself to be on this thread.
Looks like almost nobody agrees right now, lmao. Even on KMC, the consensus is that Kenobi and Dooku are comparable in power. Ant, Az, ILS, Nova, heck, even AP agrees that Kenobi and Dooku are comparable.
See, this is the thing here: You are a joke. And the reason is simple. You act as though you are superior to everyone( which by the way, is true in the realm of your imagination but nowhere else), but this is actually a method to mask the crappy arguments you produce on forums. A method to compensate. Literally all you have done is write up irrelevant passages, spammed "Dooku force choked Kenobi" repeatedly as though it would change the circumstances, and created headers in an attempt to mock and used GIF's, and made full use of your ape like characteristic which is to act big, but actually have almost no substance at all. Thinking that probably more people would be attracted to your mess of jumbled words you call an argument.
As Az said, when he stomped you in the Kenobi vs Vos, Agen and Bulq thread:
It reminds me of a guy who has a small dick buys an expensive lamborghini to compensate. Lots of buck, but no bang.
What even is this humongous difference between beginning and end of RotS Kenobi? What suggests end of RotS Kenobi is good enough to get to Mace?
There is none. In the ROTS novel, Kenobi begins the Mustafar fight hindered (due to his affection for Anakin) he overcomes that hinderance mid fight, and Lord of the Lol played it off as some sort of permanent power up.
Yeah, I am beginning to wonder if you are actually as stupid as you seem right now, or if you haven't read the argument.
Because I have specifically addressed this point. Not my fault if bigg_dumbass here cannot comprehend it.
And ok, I'll check out Kenobi vs Bane. Should be interesting.
I thought he was Ziggy, considering his username and initial posts. But then his weird stances and non-existent logic in this thread made me think of alternatives and only one other came to mind after that.
Nope. It's ZiggyStardust. You guessed right the first time.
Last time we engaged, it ended with me literally crushing the crap out of your "legitimate" arguments in the Kenobi vs Bane thread
I'm sure it was a triumphant conquest to crush the crap out of the true appropriator of Banehate (jack aka BioDyAPe) in an argument against Bane. Cliffs : you were most likely being taken for a ride.
and you throwing a gigantic temper tantrum which this conversation is beginning to go towards.
Your cognitive capacity matches that of your previous username - That of an ape. In fact, I have doubts as to even that, but let's not go there.
[...]
After reading that troll post of yours I can safely say that my little finger has infinitely more raw intelligence than your entire cognitive system, lmao.
[...]
Because you know that all you have done is pretend to act like an alpha, thinking it will mask your terrible logic and less than functional brain.
[...]
See, this is the thing here: You are a joke. And the reason is simple. You act as though you are superior to everyone( which by the way, is true in the realm of your imagination but nowhere else), but this is actually a method to mask the crappy arguments you produce on forums. A method to compensate. Literally all you have done is write up irrelevant passages, spammed "Dooku force choked Kenobi" repeatedly as though it would change the circumstances, and created headers in an attempt to mock and used GIF's, and made full use of your ape like characteristic which is to act big, but actually have almost no substance at all. Thinking that probably more people would be attracted to your mess of jumbled words you call an argument.
Phycological projection is when one attributes to another feelings or motives that he himself possesses - but is uncomfortable perceiving in himself. I've yet to see such a severe case of such unwavering self amnesty, but I suppose believing one's lies help with that. Setting you on the lucid path of truth - when it comes to Jack or myself - our opponents throw the tantrums. Not us. Pretty evident to everyone reading. For example - let's compare and contrast LordofTheLights's impotent rage above with his previous opinion of me :
ZiggyStardust is another debater with probably a high raw IQ. Has a capacity for top quality speech( or rhetoric as some would call it) and a propensity to generate novel arguments and novel counters to walls of text. (Link)
All before any heretical blasphemy at the alter of Kenobi. Typical - all it takes for a 180 opinion change are attacks at aimed at ones religion. Now on to the tantrum argument :
You missed( or deliberately stated wrong) is that Dooku didn't knock Kenobi out by hurling him. He knocked him out by literally dropping the edge of a huge metallic balcony right on Kenobi's head which only caused a small bump. He was not knocked out till that happened.
Ummm.... What? The gif must have been posted three times in this thread
So you're either unaware of human body parts and there anatomical whereabouts - mistaking Obi's legs for his head - or simply refuse to watch that little scene because... it invokes bottled-up emotions within? If that's the case, perhaps a verbal account might rip the bandaid of a little slower : Dooku grabs Kenobi, slams him into a railing and Obi is knocked out cold before the balcony falls on his legs. Which is clear by the fact he:
Was completely motionless
Didn't even make a token response to the huge balcony falling towards him
But don't take my word for it - the ROTS script itself says Kenobi lost conciseness before the platform fell. And that trumps whatever secondary interpretation you have on the matter - the books are only canon when they aren't contradicting the movie, before you regurgitate some benign passage.
Do us both a favor, and stop jerking off to the statement "Dooku grabbed Kenobi in the force" and throwing it around like it is a lifesaver that will protect you from the ass-kicking you are about to receive. Because it really won't.
Given your false account of those events above, I apparently have to keep jerking off to the statement - If not because you skipped the little cutscene - then because you simply can't come to grips with what happened. It also hasn't been debunked, remains legitimate and is the focal point of our discussion. So far you've created a fake circumstance to excuse it. In other words - "Boo hoo, the creators of the show have destroyed any chance I have of not looking like a total retard in this debate by canonising the one the scene I want you to stop mentioning". A classic case of head canon vs literal canon, in which two seperate realities exist :
LOTL's conjecture - Dooku can't Force choke Kenobi with Anakin as support
The real circumstance that affected The Count :
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was getting stronger. Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led upto the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higherground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.
Anakin's presence means Dooku spends his force reserves lavishly to meet him head on - so much that his enhanced perceptions begin to dim. Despite this, he was still quick/skilled/powerful enough to heave Anakin off of himself and bypass Kenobi's force defence, leaving him a motionless vessel on the floor. Wether achieved by greater clout or greater swiftness makes no difference. The ROTS script also notes Dooku tiring with Anakin getting stronger. If he can indeed use TK to undermine Kenobi with such dire circumstances, then you can bet your left nut he'll be doing so without Anakin's there to empty his exhaust ports. Of course - LOTL pretty much admitted his premise is absent of any logic in his first post - but that he could still make a strained argument for it.
Now I am not saying that it is necessarily logical( although you can easily make an argument for it) that Obi Wan somehow always does worse when he teams up with Anakin than he does alone, but that is what the examples show us.
This appears to be the case :
.
LOTL Argument #3 - Dooku Cant Force choke Kenobi because some IRL Tennis players prefer to play solo
And yeah, there are a ton of people in real life who do not work well in teams than they do alone. There are tennis players who are fabulous when they go solo, simply because they do not have to rely on and cover for a partner. Because they can respond to their opposition's attacks and defenses without having to "rely" on a partner and without having to watch their backs, and at the same time synchronizing well with their partner as to how to play out the entire game including its strategies and intricacies. Likewise, there are people who work fabulously well with a partner simply because they "have the knack" of doing those things.
Apparently force augmented duelling is just like tennis... only if the tennis pros could percieve the world around them through a penumbra of senses beyond sight, smell and hearing. Let's picture this : Kenobi and Anakin play tennis doubles against Dooku. Only Dooku doesn't have a partner, and he is defending against two balls (both lightsabers), while his adversaries are only defending against one. Yet, somehow Kenobi is having to watch Anakin's back, despite being the weaker of the two players and is the apparently the most vunrenble in a situation that clearly puts immense pressure on Dooku. Oh yes, LOTL this is a really perfect equivocation. You must have thought this through very clearly.
.
LOTL's Greatest Hits on Repeat - TCW still shows Kenobi working better alone despite the inconsistencies and counter examples :
As for Grevious, he still got his ass kicked in ROTS, so I'd take that either as an inconsistency, or a massive improvement for Kenobi. Either way, your ass still gets kicked.
We're at the point where when there exists a few instances to contradict some others, we automatically decide that whichever happens to fit LordoftheLol's opinion as the right examples, and label the other examples an "inconsistency". There are plenty of times where Kenobi shows the same, sometimes worse, vulnerabilities on his own throughout TCW. And here you've hit the nail on the as to why. There are three (perhaps more) valid instances that go against your singular example on Florrum, was that not just an inconsistency too?
There are many eclectic ideas one can gleam from this show. Kenobi "always fighting better without Anakin" isn't one. It just shows Kenobi fighting inconsistently in general. Given that a larger cast sample-net of occurrences no longer supports youridea, the fact you admit the idea isn't logical in the first place and how the only "argument" presented compares Star Wars fighting to Tennis, I'd say we have a dead premise, don't you think?
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LOTL Argument #4 - The authors wanted show how Dooku Can't Force Choke Kenobi even though they didn't literally
To recap - a small portion of Dooku's attention is being blocked by Kenobi in that instant. This doesn't mean Dooku fails when his concentration is focused on a lone target. To which LOTL says :
Yeah, this might have merit
It does have merit. Certainly more merit than the Grand Open Tennis play-offs featuring your favourite Jedi.
if the creators of the show would actually stick to the laws of physics religiously.
So in other words "Boo hoo, the creators of the show have destroyed any chance I have of not looking like a total retard in this debate by not literally showing Kenobi deflecting Dooku's full power, so I'll shift brunt of the blame on them now."? Anyway Real-life physics do apply to Star Wars within a classical limit wether the creators are thinking about them or not . Clearly the characters, star ships and people act in a newtonian matter, so the formulas regarding mass and acceleration will work here. The same goes for explosions and waves. For example, the epicentre of an explosion has more destructive energy than the outer rim - hence why everything in the centre is annihilated while those near enough are only shook. Various calculations can be applied onto the Star Wars universe and the authors are probably aware of the basics - being content aggregators for a Sience-Fiction work and all. Furthermore, all feats are a math - how high one jumps, how fast one runs, how big a Tk'd object is. They're just simple math. The authors might not be aware of the more complicated stuff, but they don't have to be. Everything in-universe is bound to physical laws otherwise all feats would be worthless. By the way, concession accepted. You clearly understand your argument no longer contains rational logic and now have douse it with nebulous authorial intent. That is a concession.
Here's the thing which proves your stupidity and incapability: The inability to recognize the situation as it is portrayed. Else, and this is where your critical thinking is nonexistent. You are unable to understand that the sequence in S6 was meant to show that Obi Wan and Anakin can defend themselves against Dooku's attack just fine, should they try to resist it. The stage was set for such events, when they tried to show Anakin and Ventress in an exactly similar situation, with the same result.
Nope.
The Portrayed Situation according to LOTL : This Shows that Dooku can't Force Choke Kenobi
What the situation actually portrays : Kenobi and Anakin resist an attack meant to put Muggles on their ass.
The same goes for the Force push Vetnress employed against those clones. The same goes for this :
So... a unified Savage and Maul can't ragdoll either Jedi pictured above? Because they appear to withstand the attack much better than the flying muggles surrounding them. And here we have the defining issue with authorial intent. I can just as easily bring up the two .gifs from ROTS (that cause you untold misery) and claim that they wanted to Potray Dooku as someone who can simply Force-Roll Obi Wan. Lucas wasn't considering Kenobi's track record in TCW then and I do doubt he was taking on-board your personal (loworthy) ideas either.
Going strictly by the laws of physics, or strict logic, I too can make outlandish claims. For example, SC has Obi Wan pushing Maul back with such strength, that it makes Maul's legs whine. Now, I too can claim that Maul has a much more muscular body than Obi Wan, and has obviously trained physically with a much greater intensity than Obi Wan has. Yet, it is Obi Wan who had the advantage in strength in that encounter. So, obviously Obi Wan's force power is far greater, since he can augment himself to a much greater extent than Maul can, with respect to his muscular mass.
Debate tip #1 : When trying to to make your opponent deny a proposition by offering a counter-proposition, make sure that counter has relevance to the argument. For one, I can happily admit Kenobi had greater Force augmentation than Maul in that moment without denying the ragdolling in ROTS. It doesn't hurt my case at all. However, I don't even have to. Please tell me how Kenobi making Maul's cybernetic legs (the limbs keeping him stable and upright) "whine" is evidence of greater augmentative ability?
You are probably scratching your head like an ape after reading that, so read it several times. Eventually you will get it.
Ladies and Gentleman : the man who doesn't think real world physics apply to Star Wars but compares Jedi to Tennis players, mistook Kenobi's head for his legs and forgot that Mauls' own were made from metal ^
Looks like almost nobody agrees right now, lmao. Even on KMC, the consensus is that Kenobi and Dooku are comparable in power. Ant, Az, ILS, Nova, heck, even AP agrees that Kenobi and Dooku are comparable.
Did I say they weren't comparable in power? No. I said that Dooku has the skill to undermine Kenobi with TK. If that means setting up a situation where he's caught off guard, then so be it. He has the capacity to do that ten out of ten times, and that's not even factoring in Force lighting, which is guaranteed to down Kenobi if (when) he's hit. It's an edge he holds against Kenobi and I reckon ILS, Nova, Az will are warm to such an idea. Now as you think that "almost nobody" agrees that Dooku can beat Kenobi, I'll make a thread later. You can consider a personal victory for yourself if Kenobi gets more votes, otherwise it's business as usual boy. And you can quietly retreat with a Kenobi plushy in one hand and your shaft in the other.
@lordofthelight: I'm not buying your pro-Obi-Wan arguments. They seem like pure wank, if I'm honest. Also, you look bad when you constantly tell others how stupid they are compared to you, oh almighty smart one. ;)
I'm sure it was a triumphant conquest to crush the crap out of the true appropriator of Banehate (jack aka BioDyAPe) in an argument against Bane. Cliffs : you were most likely being taken for a ride.
Phycological projection is when one attributes to another feelings or motives that he himself possesses - but is uncomfortable perceiving in himself. I've yet to see such a severe case of such unwavering self amnesty, but I suppose believing one's lies help with that. Setting you on the lucid path of truth - when it comes to Jack or myself - our opponents throw the tantrums. Not us. Pretty evident to everyone reading. For example - let's compare and contrast LordofTheLights's impotent rage above with his previous opinion of me :
All before any heretical blasphemy at the alter of Kenobi. Typical - all it takes for a 180 opinion change are attacks at aimed atones religion. Now on to the tantrum argument :
Nope. I responded the way I did because I genuinely thought you were BDA and I guess I wanted to throw my weight around a bit since that guy did irritate me a lot. Now that I know that you are Ziggy for sure, I will have to spend more than 10 minutes on this post.
So you're either unaware of human body parts and there anatomical whereabouts - mistaking Obi's legs for his head - or simply refuse to watch that little scene because... it invokes bottled-up emotions within? If that's the case, perhaps a verbal account might rip the bandaid of a little slower : Dooku grabs Kenobi, slams him into a railing and Obi is knocked out cold before the balcony falls on his legs. Which is clear by the fact he:
Was completely motionless
Didn't even make a token response to the huge balcony falling towards him
But don't take my word for it - the ROTS script itself says Kenobi lost conciseness before the platform fell. And that trumps whatever secondary interpretation you have on the matter - the books are only canon when they aren't contradicting the movie, before you regurgitate some benign passage.
Well, it's a good thing we are discussing primarily the Legends continuity here. Because in the Legends continuity, the novelizations being word edited by Lucas himself carry similar or higher priority than the script( at least the main novel):
He rolled hard into a pile of rubble: shattered permacrete,hydrofoamed to reduce weight. "Obi-Wan—!"
He sprang to his feet and waved away the debris that had buried the body of his friend. Obi-Wan lay entirely still, eyes closed, dust-caked blood matting his hair where his scalp had split.
Credit: ROTS Novel
But yeah, the part where he just lays there unresponsive is addressed by the junior novel where it does say that he was half stunned:
Obi-Wan dropped to the floor below and lay half-stunned. Distantly, he felt a surge in the dark side, and then a large chunk of the balcony hurtled down at him. His last thought before he lost consciousness was, It’s up to Anakin now.
Credit: ROTS Junior Novel
As well as heavily implying that the platform had struck him on the head.
Now, if you want to consider "Disney" canon, then I am not taking part in discussing it. I am considering primarily the Legends continuity here( obviously I have to consider TCW as well).
Now, let's get to your addressing of the circumstances affecting Kenobi, before we come to the part where you address Dooku's choke.
Apparently force augmented duelling is just like tennis... only if the tennis pros could percieve the world around them through a penumbra of senses beyond sight and hearing. Let's picture this : Kenobi and Anakin play tennis doubles against Dooku. Only Dooku doesn't have a partner, and he is defending against two balls (both lightsabers), while his adversaries are only defending against one. Yet, somehow Kenobi is having to watch Anakin's back, despite being the weaker of the two players and is the apparently the most vunrenble in a situation that clearly puts immense pressure on Dooku. Oh yes, LOTL this is a really perfect equivocation. You must have thought this through very clearly.
Yeah, this doesn't fly for many reasons:
-That they have force augmented sight and hearing does nothing to change what I have said, lol. Their enemy too has the same advantage, and it is just one more dimension of competence that is added to the mix. Force augmented sight and hearing does nothing to change the fact that people still have to coordinate and synchronize well with their partners, else they will lose. It does nothing to change the fact that their enemy has the same advantage and that they will exploit those advantages to the same extent that you do. It does nothing the change the fact that the whole drama still has to take place, just on a much more advanced and sophisticated level than before. So, yeah, this is amusing.
But here's the part which is "really" amusing:
Only Dooku doesn't have a partner, and he is defending against two balls (both lightsabers), while his adversaries are only defending against one.
So, the brilliant Ziggystardust is talking about a game of tennis, where, the two players defending are shooting "two" balls against their opponent, when in return, they are receiving only "one" ball?
Excellent thinking dude. But yeah, in the rush of undermining my perfectly valid analogy, perhaps you could have equated the lightsabers to the "tennis rackets", the ball to the symbolism of the lightsabers making contact? Then, you could arrive at the perfect situation where only one ball is being used, but there are three players playing. Yeah, that would make much more sense.
-Your entire rant does nothing to change the fact that the player on the opposing team may be vulnerable and unable to coordinate well with his partner. Now that we have established that there is only one ball being involved in the entire game( the alternative that Ziggy the brilliant here proposed being quite like the realm of quantum physics where two balls go but only one comes back, in a repeated loop throughout the game), Dooku here, faces a stiff problem in actually getting the ball past the two, because there are actually two players on the opposing court, and only one on his court. That is the only problem he faces, because otherwise, it is just like a normal game.
But let's say that of the two players on the opposing court, Kenobi is the more defensive one, and "does not" work well in team situations. He can block the ball if driven towards him, but unlike Dooku or his other opponent, Skywalker, does not have the prodigious offensive talents necessary to take the game to the opponent. In such a situation, it is perfectly easy for Dooku the create a situation, "via" cheating, that Kenobi is forced on the offensive, and being "confirmed" to be distracted, Dooku can easily smash a ball on his area and score a point.
This does not take away from the fact that Kenobi, when on his own, is almost perfect in his defense and it is next to impossible to get a ball past him. Well, maybe if he is forced into unwanted offensive maneuvers, which are a "confirmed" weakness of his( confirmed by Gillard himself) but otherwise, no.
Seems perfectly valid for the situation doesn't it?
We're at the point where when there exists a few instances to contradict some others, we automatically decide that whichever happens to fit LordoftheLol's opinion as the right examples, and label the other examples an "inconsistency". There are plenty of times where Kenobi shows the same, sometimes worse, vulnerabilities on his own throughout TCW. And here you've hit the nail on the as to why. There are three (perhaps more) valid instances that go against your singular example on Florrum, was that not just an inconsistency too?
Again, this laughable rant does not fly, because:
-Yeah, Obi Wan has seen the guy that has haunted him for more than a decade suddenly appear to life. The guy that killed his master and the guy that drove him into a fit of frenzy quite unlike his character. Yeah, maybe, just maybe, there is a chance that he might not be ready for a confrontation with this guy. That his mind is in a jumbled mix of emotions at this stage and that he cannot perform effectively. Not to mention, seeing his monster of a brother whom both he and Anakin failed to defeat earlier?
Yeah, reasonable as it seems, it was confirmed by Filoni himself that he was not in the right mindset, so that is not an example we can hold against him, lol.
Only when we get to their duel on Florrum is he ready for his fight with Maul. Again, said by Filoni himself. And while you might be inclined to dismiss these examples as inconsistencies an actual examination of the circumstances of these fights does make sense.
-Force users in general are portrayed weaker in the TCW show than they are in almost any other media. That is consistent throughout the show, notable examples being pre-Viszla's battle with Obi Wan and Maul.
Nevertheless, you made a brilliant point of showing Cad gripping Obi Wan's arm once and electrocuting him ignoring the other parts of the duel where he shows casual superiority to Cad. That does completely show Obi Wan's inferiority to Cad, doesn't it?
-Yeah, good thing that that part of the show didn't materialize, so we have no idea what they might have showed. But just as an example, scenes such as these were made of Maul ragdolling Palpatine( further weakening your point that there are force shields around force users) yet they were shelved. Now, if S5 had been cancelled, we would have those clips on for your so called canonical content.
The point being, even if Pablo said that( could you give the full quote) we still cannot assume that it is perfectly canonical due to the fact that it is not the final version. One that has gone through repeated editing to make sure it is in line with continuity and the optimized version. Again, the duel with Obi Wan and Grevious in S7 is as ridiculous as the duel with Maul and Palpatine in S5 which was deleted. However, due to the show being cancelled, we don't know how their duel might have played out in reality there. Because the process of repeated editing and changing of the scene was not done. That is, if you don't have evidence for it.
Even giving you this one example, this does nothing to undermine
-The much larger sample set I have in my favor
-Kenobi not doing well in teams in general being a recurring theme which I will get to later. Note that the ROTS novel's commentary on their teamwork is when they are taking on scores of droids together and crushing the separatists on various worlds which is what the outer rim sieges was about, and where their fame was enhanced significantly. That still does not speak to their competency when taking on singular force users as the type of fighting involved there would be a lot different.
Next, let's move to the brilliant logic you have employed in these posts. Aside from the Maul and Savage example on Maul's return, which is explained away by the circumstances of the duel, literally nothing else is an "inconsistency". Obi Wan being manhandled by Grevious has nothing to do with his performances against Maul and Savage, or Ventress for that matter, since at this point, it is laughably obvious that she was amped on Dathomir to a great extent.
Ziggy's brilliant logic:
Kenobi does not defeat his opponent outright in a scant few selected cases on his own, when one of those cases was a circumstantial duel and the other case never materialized on the actual show and the last case is the opponent just getting a single hit past his guard and electrocuting him, a really poor example of Ziggy's point. Yet, he does much better against "different" opponents, so obviously the scant amount of former cases are evidence enough that we completely neglect his better performances against "different" opponents when solo, and classify them as inconsistencies.
For the layman, the logical "premise" of Ziggy is as follows: Obi Wan defeats Maul on his own. But in a hypothetical duel between him, Anakin and Maul where Anakin supports him, Obi Wan doesn't do so well, and the duel is termed as a stalemate. Obi Wan also trashes Ventress on his own, yet he does badly against her when he is teamed up with Anakin. Obi Wan trashes Savage on his own, but is unable to defeat him with the aid of Anakin. At this point, it should be obvious that he faces problems when teamed up with Anakin yet does well when he fights alone.
Now, Obi Wan duels Sidious and loses. So, obviously it is an "inconsistency" for him here. That he did well against Maul is of no consequence because a completely different opponent in Sidious defeated him. Hence all his solo duels are inconsistencies, and hence him teaming up with Anakin and losing almost every single time they face a force user does not indicate his vulnerability in Anakin's presence at all.
Great premise. Note that my example with Sidious was just to illustrate your logic here.
There's an eclectic variety of ideas one can gleam from this show. Kenobi "always fighting better without Anakin" isn't one. It just shows Kenobi fighting inconsistently in general. Given that a larger sample-net of instances no longer support your idea, the fact you admit it's not logical in the first place and how the only "argument" presented compares Star Wars fights to Tennis matches, I'd say we have a dead premise, don't you think?
The tennis match example is valid as an analogy, and none of these "inconsistencies" mean what you want them to mean, so yeah, no.
So in other words "Boo hoo, the creators of the show have destroyed any chance I have of not looking like a total retard in this debate by not literally showing Kenobi deflecting Dooku's full power, so I'll shift brunt of the blame on them now." ?Anyway Real-life physics do apply to Star Wars within a classical limit wether the creators are thinking about them or not . Clearly the characters, star ships and people act in a newtonian matter, so the formulas regarding mass and acceleration will work here. The same goes for explosions and waves. For example, the epicentre of an explosion has more destructive energy than the outer rim - hence why everything in the centre is annihilated while those near enough are only shook. Various calculations can be applied onto the Star Wars universe and the authors are probably aware of the basics - being content aggregators for a Sience-Fiction work and all. By the way, you clearly understand this argument doesn't no longer contains rational logic and now have douse it with ambiguous authorial intent. That is a concession.
Here's the thing which proves your stupidity and incapability: The inability to recognize the situation as it is portrayed. Else, and this is where your critical thinking is nonexistent. You are unable to understand that the sequence in S6 was meant to show that Obi Wan and Anakin can defend themselves against Dooku's attack just fine, should they try to resist it. The stage was set for such events, when they tried to show Anakin and Ventress in an exactly similar situation, with the same result.
Nope.
The Portrayed Situation according to LOTL : This Shows that Dooku can't Force Choke Kenobi
What the situation actually portrays : Kenobi and Anakin resist an attack meant to put Muggles on their ass.
The same goes for the Force push Vetnress employed against those clones. The same goes for this :
So... a unified Savage and Maul can't ragdoll either Jedi pictured above? Because they appear to withstand the attack much better than the flying muggles surrounding them. And here we have the defining issue with authorial intent. I can just as easily bring up the two .gifs from ROTS (that cause you untold misery) and claim that they wanted to Potray Dooku as someone who can simply Force-Roll Obi Wan. Lucas wasn't considering Kenobi's track record in TCW then and I do doubt he was taking on-board your personal (loworthy) ideas either.
I don't need to respond to this section to each of your points for two reasons the first being:
Did I say they weren't comparable in power? No.
Most of the debate was centered around this, or so I perceived. With this not being an issue, we half agree.
The same goes for the Force push Vetnress employed against those clones.
It is not meant to put only non force sensitives on their ass because as Ventress, Dooku and Maul and Savage are aware, there are Jedi in front of them that are a far bigger threat than the non force sensitives.
The Jedi are the primary "targets" here, at least in the case of Dooku and Ventress. I don't need to explain why either of them would want to take out the Jedi primarily and why the others would be of little concern to them.
Speaking of which, how do you "know" for sure that this is a "uniform distribution" as you have ranted throughout here? How do you know for sure that the vast majority of the power of Ventress and Dooku isn't directed at the Jedi, and that only the vestigial remains of the so called "wave" is directed at the force sensitives?
For one, Anakin and Ventress should be almost equal, and if anyone should be superior, it would be Anakin. Yet, going by your premise and assuming that Ventress directs a "uniformly distributed" wave at them, Anakin would be as powerful as only a "small fraction" of her power? Not an acceptable premise at all, since even if you were willing to believe such a notion, the duel that Anakin and Ventress took before Ventress hitting him with a force blast, put Ventress on her ass with Anakin arguably coming out the superior there. If Ventress would be vastly more powerful than Anakin, there is no way that he should keep up with her in a duel, yet he came out of the duel looking superior to her there.
Debate tip #1 : When trying to to make your opponent deny a proposition by offering a counter-proposition, make sure that counter has relevance to the argument. For one, I can happily admit Kenobi had greater Force augmentation than Maul in that moment without denying the ragdolling in ROTS. It doesn't hurt my case at all. However, I don't even have to. Please tell me how Kenobi making Maul's cybernetic legs (the limbs keeping him stable and upright) whine is evidence of greater augmentative ability?
Because Maul was trying his hardest to fight offensively, and Kenobi was still pushing him back with enough strength to make his legs whine, meaning
-Either he was battering Maul with greater force than Maul was battering him, causing severe pressure on his legs and making them whine
-Or they were engaged in a bladelock and Kenobi was bearing down hard on Maul, causing his legs to buckle and making them whine
From the passage and the context, it is highly likely that the former situation was occurring, not the latter.
But do you deny that the implications of this are profound? If Kenobi indeed has a greater force augmentation in strength than Maul, then that means that his power is significantly greater than Maul's. Because Maul's body is obviously a lot more muscular than Obi Wan's, meaning that to surpass his natural muscles and his force augmentation for someone who does not have his type of body structure, he would need to pour in a lot more power than Maul can pour in to enhance his strength through the force.
But primarily, it is mainly the case that authors don't understand the implications of their writing fully. I am sure you are in great distress over the SF Malak quote which implies that Revan can stomp Kun now.
My point being, there is a huge difference when a novel goes out of its way to state that Obi Wan was caught off guard in ROTS hence his defeat to Dooku, and when you try to accurately determine the power of SW characters through the physics of uniform distribution that the creators might not have put much thought into. Note that it is you who has assumed that it is a uniform distribution. What prevents Dooku or Ventress from directing a majority of their power against the force users and only a negligible amount against the non force sensitives there?
Ever considered that it might not be a uniform distribution there?
My comparison with Ventress was to illustrate, that since this is not a given, that we can compare how a force defense works when Anakin who should be atleast comparably powerful to Ventress tries to defend himself and what happens to him. Extending that to Obi Wan defending himself against Dooku there.
This example doesn't rely on the internal dynamics of how you assume force attacks and defenses work. It simply uses an existing example and then compares similar situations with that example to determine how the other force users compare to each other.
Anakin's presence means Dooku spends his force reserves lavishly to meet him head on - so much that his enhanced perceptions begin to dim. Despite this, he was still quick/skilled/powerful enough to heave Anakin off of himself and bypass Kenobi's force defence, leaving him a motionless vessel on the floor. Wether achieved by greater clout or greater swiftness makes no difference. The ROTS script also notes Dooku tiring with Anakin getting stronger. If he can indeed use TK to undermine Kenobi with such dire circumstances, then you can bet your left nut he'll be doing so without Anakin's there to empty his exhaust ports. Of course - LOTL pretty much admitted his premise is absent of any logic in his first post - but that he could still make a strained argument for it.
Dude, Kenobi not fighting well in teams in general is a theme throughout not just in TCW.
It is all but confirmed that Obi Wan is pretty close to Qui Gon as it is and almost equal to him by TPM( as evidenced by his performance against Qui Gon when he was 17 and him defeating Plo Koon around the time of TPM to which Koon conceded inferiority).
We also know that Qui Gon can press Maul on his own and give him a good fight. Now together, they are almost equal to Maul, but that has hardly any appreciable step up from when Qui Gon was fighting Maul alone. Nowhere even remotely close to what you would expect if you almost doubled Qui Gon's abilities( since it is evident that Obi Wan is pretty close to him). And although he is now emotional, Obi Wan visibly performs worse against Maul with Qui Gon than he does without.
Their duel against Aurra Sing too should serve further as an example of this. Ordinarily I would expect an entity twice as strong as Plo Koon to destroy her, but it appears that that entity is barely stronger than Plo Koon there.
Not sure if you take games into account but Dooku is able to give a good fight to both Obi Wan and Mace there, when Mace should be decisively above Dooku on his own.
It does appear that Obi Wan barely contributes anything at all to team duels where he should be comparable to his team mate. We do know that base Obi Wan is similar to Qui Gon, and should thus replicate his performance or better it since he doesn't share Qui Gon's disadvantages against Maul.
Likewise all the examples in TCW and his duel on the IH.
Since they are comparable in power and obviously almost similarly skilled with a blade, it makes no sense for Obi Wan to perform as bad against Dooku as he does when he fights him with Anakin. This is emphasized even more when you consider that a much weaker Obi Wan in AoTC does a lot better against Dooku than he does in TCW.
If you don't agree with the tennis example, how about a different or a simpler one-in situations where you take on an enemy with a partner, you not only have to be more careful of the enemy's moves but also the moves of your partner. The presence of a partner may help, but your need to match and synchronize well with your partner may also hinder you. In the case of Kenobi, he is hindered more than he benefits from Anakin's presence, hence his poor performances against Dooku, and almost everyone in TCW when he is with Anakin.
Now as you think that "almost nobody" agrees that Dooku can beat Kenobi, I'll make a thread later.
When did I say that the consensus was that "almost nobody thinks Kenobi beats Dooku" lmao? I said that it is primarily agreed upon that the two are comparable in power and my statement is a clear evidence of it. Even you yourself agree with it.
Heck, even I myself admitted that Dooku would beat Kenobi as of their fight on the IH. There really is no point to the poll. As far as I am concerned, there isn't a debate here, because Kenobi being comparable to Dooku in power is what I was looking for in the first place. With you agreeing to it, the rest of the debate is on semantics. I don't care how many times Dooku beats Kenobi out of 10, although I disagree with the assertion that Dooku can undermine him and take him out with the force by catching him off guard whenever he wants to.
I would appreciate it if you could wrap up this discussion soon. I don't debate regularly these days due to commitments irl and they are about to increase highly soon.
We basically agree that Dooku and Kenobi are comparable in power( which I was arguing for) so it primarily comes down to you arguing that Dooku can take him out via skill which I don't agree with.
@lordofthelight: I'm not buying your pro-Obi-Wan arguments. They seem like pure wank, if I'm honest. Also, you look bad when you constantly tell others how stupid they are compared to you, oh almighty smart one. ;)
Do us both a favor, and stop jerking off to the statement "Dooku grabbed Kenobi in the force" and throwing it around like it is a lifesaver that will protect you from the ass-kicking you are about to receive. Because it really won't.
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