Anakin had a great mental hindrance that stopped him from effectively fighting. Kenobi also knew Anakin's moves inside out, and even then he had the upper hand for most of the fight, with him not losing in a duel but due to his arrogance when Kenobi had an environmental advantage.
Peak Anakin is a tier nine- Yoda and Sidious range- and is one level above Kenobi, with that one level being a "huge jump" and the differences being likened to those of a Richter scale.
Combined, yes, most likely. Kenobi should be close enough to Dooku as it is (he effortlessly deflected Dooku's blows and the Force gap is honestly overblown) and Ventress is a useful distraction.
@dark-sith123: Boost he gets on Mustafar removes Dooku's minute force advantage and that's all he had really.
Kenobi can fend him off effortlessly, he could press him offensively when straying from Ataru even in his much weaker AotC iteration so now should well and truly be able to put on the pressure.
RotS was a blindside. Circumstantial and not applicable in an otherwise fair fight.
He'll have his hands full with Kenobi in sabers and Ventress can just press from the sides. He's not going to ragdoll Ventress when he's having to deal with a fighter on his tier.
@dark-sith123: Except he's not on his tier though is he...
Late TCW Kenobi was literally a non-factor for the same Dooku that got captured by pirates...
Even if you believe Kenobi is as good a swordsman as the Count by the third Prequel, his force ability greatly exceeds Obi's.
And ROTS clearly shows the large force gap between the two: "He [Dooku] Force-pushed Obi-Wan with terrible strength, tossing the Jedi Master like a rag doll against the walls of the quarters. Kenobi was knocked unconscious."
"The slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall"
Dooku flicks his wrist and Kenobi goes flying. Ventress' outcome would be similar.
@hilarityensues: He was put in the same tier as obi wan and maul, but it was also noted that there's a huge gap within the levels... which is present in your novel quote regarding the force choke.
@dark-sith123: Except he's not on his tier though is he...
Late TCW Kenobi was literally a non-factor for the same Dooku that got captured by pirates...
Even if you believe Kenobi is as good a swordsman as the Count by the third Prequel, his force ability greatly exceeds Obi's.
And ROTS clearly shows the large force gap between the two: "He [Dooku] Force-pushed Obi-Wan with terrible strength, tossing the Jedi Master like a rag doll against the walls of the quarters. Kenobi was knocked unconscious."
"The slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall"
Dooku flicks his wrist and Kenobi goes flying.
Why are these "long debunked" arguments being repeatedly used again and again?
There's no way in hell Kenobi gets past Dooku unless it's just sabers. How are you going to argue that?
Did you read the post?
Explain :
Dooku is skilled enough to Force choke Kenobi, while Anakin is breathing down his neck. If he can quickly bypass Kenobi's lesser force shield under said circumstance, then there's not much stopping him from doing the same 1 vs 1.
Dooku is more powerful than Kenobi but the ragdoll is unfair. It was in a very opportune moment, and it only presented itself due to the battle droids, something noted as cheating by the RotS novel.
There's no way in hell Kenobi gets past Dooku unless it's just sabers. How are you going to argue that?
Did you read the post?
Explain :
Dooku is skilled enough to Force choke Kenobi, while Anakin is breathing down his neck. If he can quickly bypass Kenobi's lesser force shield in under said circumstance, then there's not much stopping him from doing the same 1 vs 1.
Any counters?
Lesser force shields are almost useless against force attacks as literally every single instance either in OCW, or TCW or the movies show. And again, as I have said these two do not work well together against force users. Both of them can and have easily defeated the likes of Ventress, yet she is able to give them a solid fight together. Savage arguably won his fight against the two of them, yet Obi Wan wrecked him on Florrum with negative circumstances and while driving Maul back at the same time. Heck, Obi Wan performed evenly with Maul( you could argue he did slightly better as he was the only one who landed a physical strike in an even duel) in his solo duel in Revival and Maul stomped Savage on his own.
Obi Wan has always worked better alone against force users than with Anakin. Coming to your point, yeah, it is an excellent showing on Dooku's part, but not of power, but "skill". He times his attacks perfectly and synchronizes them at the exact time Obi Wan is vulnerable and has his defenses down, and targets Anakin at the same time.
Perhaps a more prudent example would be Obi Wan gesturing and being perfectly capable of blocking Dooku's force attack in S6 when not caught off guard? An Obi Wan who would be significantly weaker than ROTS Obi Wan?
Or if you really believe that overcoming "lesser" force shield is an actual feat then Obi Wan has "torn" through the defenses of both Maul and Savage at once( in Shadow Conspiracy). Maul as you know is vastly superior to Savage, but the thing is that Savage too has "torn" through the shields of Dooku and Ventress simultaneously. Which would give us a crude scaling close to this
TCW Obi Wan>Maul and Savage>>>>>>>Savage>>>>>>>Dooku and Ventress
There are many more examples like this throughout TCW. If we used your logic we would get many more scalings like the one above.
So, all Dooku had to do was grip the weight of Obi Wan. Considering he has thrown starfighters and cruisers with ease before it should be a pretty easy thing to do for him here, and kick Anakin away at the same time. That and considering Obi Wan's poor performances when he teams up with Anakin, I don't think this is an issue for him at all here.
A much weaker version of Obi Wan in AoTC did better than S6 Obi Wan against Dooku in dueling when he didn't have Anakin alongside him. Now I am not saying that it is necessarily logical( although you can easily make an argument for it) that Obi Wan somehow always does worse when he teams up with Anakin than he does alone, but that is what the examples show us.
@lordofthelight: Do you personally think Obi-Wan does worse when teamed with anakin ? I think that working with someone as unpredictable as anakin causes Obi-Wan to hesitate more often because Skywalker adds so many more factors to an engagement.
@grinningf0x: Anakin's more forward style forces Kenobi to use Ataru and their switching prevents either of their styles from being fully effective.
Against Dooku in particular it does not help as Dooku knows Ataru like the back of his hand and he can just pre-empt Kenobi's moves.
The best way for them to work together is the way it's shown in the RotS novel (the only place). Where Kenobi acts as an unassailable wall that forces the opponent to take Anakin "bulldozer" Skywalker head on.
You know full well Vader was extremely hindered and isn't a Mace level combatant on Mustafar. Besides, Vader had the upper hand in multiple occasions before the high ground.
Lesser force shields are almost useless against force attacks as literally every single instance either in OCW, or TCW or the movies show.
Lesser Force shields basically are the staple defence mech for fighting . If you're saying that Kenobi's barriers are useless - unless premeditated - than I agree and we can end the debate here. The premise is that Dooku can TK Incap Obi mid-combat. That doesn't appear to be contradicted by any event on-screen and certainly not by the elaborate reaching below.
Coming to your point, yeah, it is an excellent showing on Dooku's part, but not of power, but "skill". He times his attacks perfectly and synchronizes them at the exact time Obi Wan is vulnerable and has his defenses down, and targets Anakin at the same time.
Well.... I specifically attributed Dooku's showing with his "skill" with the force. This is within the post you quoted .... so concession accepted? Regarding the conjecture - there is not one source claiming Kenobi's Force defences are down - even the Junior novel doesn't suggest such - implying Kenobi simply wasn't quick enough. I don't take that to mean his defences are "down" but rather his reactions didn't allow for any greater defensive gesture, that basically means Dooku can do the same thing anytime he wants. It also makes no sense for Kenobi to relax his Force barriers after recovering from a prior force push.
Or if you really believe that overcoming "lesser" force shield is an actual feat then Obi Wan has "torn" through the defenses of both Maul and Savage at once( in Shadow Conspiracy). Maul as you know is vastly superior to Savage, but the thing is that Savage too has "torn" through the shields of Dooku and Ventress simultaneously. Which would give us a crude scaling close to this = TCW Obi Wan>Maul and Savage>>>>>>>Savage>>>>>>>Dooku and Ventress. There are many more examples like this throughout TCW. If we used your logic we would get many more scalings like the one above.
Cathy Newman would be envious. You seem to be addressing a certain type of robotic logic that doesn't represent anything I've posted here or anywhere else. Let's start with my actual logic - Dooku TK stomping Kenobi on a whim means that he can TK stomp Kenobi on a whim.... I specifically claim this is a showing of skill - I never claim it promotes his superior power expressed with a line of scaling > - there's a big difference between this feat and what Savage Opress achieves. Dooku engages Anakin and Obi Wan at their synergetic peak and has enough swiftness and skill in the force to launch Anakin with a kick and Incapacitate Kenobi. I Don't see Opress doing the same thing - he's simply not refined enough. And unlike his adversaries, Kenobi was actually knocked out when Dooku hurled him across the room.
And again, as I have said these two do not work well together against force users. Both of them can and have easily defeated the likes of Ventress, yet she is able to give them a solid fight together. Savage arguably won his fight against the two of them, yet Obi Wan wrecked him on Florrum with negative circumstances and while driving Maul back at the same time. Heck, Obi Wan performed evenly with Maul( you could argue he did slightly better as he was the only one who landed a physical strike in an even duel) in his solo duel in Revival and Maul stomped Savage on his own.
Translation : Dooku can not TK roll Kenobi if Anakin isn't attacking him. A simple - lol - will suffice here.
Perhaps a more prudent example would be Obi Wan gesturing and being perfectly capable of blocking Dooku's force attack in S6 when not caught off guard? An Obi Wan who would be significantly weaker than ROTS Obi Wan?
If by prudent you mean completely incomparable. A force wave aimed at multiple targets is not nearly the same a Force push directed at a single target. A wave distributes it's energy uniformly and dissipates with distance. In other words, Kenobi is only being hit by a fraction of the waves power, which explains why he can block it compared to other instances.
So, all Dooku had to do was grip the weight of Obi Wan. Considering he has thrown starfighters and cruisers with ease before it should be a pretty easy thing to do for him here
Translation : ragdolling Jedi is the same a ragdolling inanimate objects. A simple - lol - should suffice here. But really - if Kenobi ever Tk stomped the caliber of characters we're discussing, you would jump on such a feat and wave it around as your new red letter. The only reason your so fervent in these arguments is because of the soft territory. Capitalising on the lack of people that can contend with you here, like a big kid in a small school. But the truth is you're nothing more than a little fanboy in need of a spanking. And it's time to get spanked.
A much weaker version of Obi Wan in AoTC did better than S6 Obi Wan against Dooku in dueling when he didn't have Anakin alongside him.
Put simply, If dooku can break Kenobi's standard force defences and reduce him to unconsciousness with the odds stacked against, he should have no trouble when the odds are in his favour. Lord of the Lol seems to think Anakin's presence makes it easier for Kenobi to be rag dolled but offers no tangible reasoning for this.
Put simply, you are either a master troll, or unbelievably obtuse. I have rarely seen more incoherent gibberish on CV these days.
Bro, you don't even understand what uniform distribution is - not able to recognise the difference between a widespread Force Wave and a precise Force grip. You claimed that Dooku could rag doll Kenobi given his ability to rag doll inanimate objects; such as starships, and you think that Anakin's absence prevents Kenobi from the same fate that befell him in ROTS.
You lack the sophistic ability and the raw intelligence to argue the absurd stances you take up. There's nothing else to say except to give you a spanking the next time it happens, you biased little fanboy.
Lesser Force shields basically are the staple defence mech for fighting . If you're saying that Kenobi's barriers are useless - unless premeditated - than I agree and we can end the debate here. The premise is that Dooku can TK Incap Obi mid-combat. That doesn't appear to be contradicted by any event on-screen and certainly not by the elaborate reaching below.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about. I presume you have only played KoToR games or read some Karpyshyn novels, and then have seen GIF's of force users pushing each other about in TCW and conclude that "lesser force shields are staple defense mech".
You would have an idea of it if you had you know, actually bothered to watch the TCW and OCW shows instead of spouting stuff from head canon, which is literally the entirety of your post.
But yeah, "lesser force shields" literally are almost useless against force based attacks.
Well.... I specifically attributed Dooku's showing with his "skill" with the force. This is within the post you quoted .... so concession accepted? Regarding the conjecture - there is not one source claiming Kenobi's Force defences are down - even the Junior novel doesn't suggest such - implying Kenobi simply wasn't quick enough. I don't take that to mean his defences are "down" but rather his reactions didn't allow for any greater defensive gesture, that basically means Dooku can do the same thing anytime he wants. It also makes no sense for Kenobi to relax his Force barriers after recovering from a prior force push.
Again, you literally have no idea what you are talking about.
Force users do not have a "cocoon" covering them at all times, they have to raise a defense "actively" through the use of gestures. As I said, this is consistent with literally "every single example" throughout TCW, OCW and the movies and may be contradicted only by the Bane trilogy or KoToR which have an entirely different outlook on the force than these media.
No, I said it is a great example of Dooku's skill, but I also pointed out Obi Wan's vulnerabilities while attacking and also when he fights alongside Anakin against other force users compared to when he fights alone. Two extreme factors which would make big differences in fights which you conveniently ignored.
Lastly, I seriously wonder as to your cognitive capacity when you are unable to comprehend that this sentence:
Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden.
Credit: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel
Means that "Obi Wan was not able to put up a defense in time".
Oh, yeah, he did try to do it in S6. You know, the time he was utterly unsuccessful when Obi Wan actually blocked it.
Cathy Newman would be envious. You seem to be addressing a certain type of robotic logic that doesn't represent anything I've posted here or anywhere else. Let's start with my actual logic - Dooku TK stomping Kenobi on a whim means that he can TK stomp Kenobi on a whim.... I specifically claim this is a showing of skill - I never claim it promotes his superior power expressed with a line of scaling > - there's a big difference between this feat and what Savage Opress achieves. Dooku is literally engages Anakin and Obi Wan at their synergetic peak has enough swiftness and skill in the force to launch Anakin and Incapacitate Kenobi. I Don't see Opress doing the same thing - he's simply not refined enough. And unlike his adversaries, Kenobi was actually knocked out when Dooku hurled him across the room.
I wonder if even you have any clue as to what you write.
But yeah, already addressed by Obi Wan being extremely vulnerable when fighting alongside Anakin against force users.
Translation : Dooku can not TK roll Kenobi if Anakin isn't attacking him. A simple - lol - will suffice here.
What you are basically saying is that you do lack the cognitive capacity to understand incredibly simple points, and resort to acting incredulous at perfectly credible points raised not only by me but several other people, including debaters with greater repute and intelligence than you.
Either respond or it is an automatic concession. Your "lol" means absolutely nothing in front of actual source material.
If by prudent you mean completely incomparable. A force wave aimed at multiple targets is not nearly the same a Force push directed at a single target. A wave distributes it's energy uniformly and dissipates with distance. In other words, Kenobi is only being hit by a fraction of the waves power, which explains why he can block it compared to other instances.
He is being hit with nearly half the wave's power. He defends it while being staggered back only a step or two.
So now, if you are capable of basic mathematics, you would know that had Dooku directed his power on Obi Wan alone, the distance staggered would simply have been doubled.
Which means that he would still be staggered back only a meter or two even if all of Dooku's power was directed at him. A significantly pre prime Obi Wan at that.
Yeah, and even force users who are comparable to each other in power like in the case of Anakin and Ventress, when raising their arms to defend, they are staggered back a step or two, just like in this case. A force defense is not a full representation of one's power and a force offense always brings out more power than a force defense. So yeah, if all the effect there is is being staggered back a couple of meters, then yeah, you are easily comparable to your opponent.
Secondly, this point is irrelevant. Force pushes are not "directed" at a single opponent, they are always spread out. This time, there just happened to be both Anakin and Obi Wan who were both present in the line of impact, and were both affected by it. This is demonstrated multiple times in TCW, with both Ventress Tk'ing Anakin and the surroundings being affected, and Maul Tk'ing Obi Wan and collapsing the cave as well. As well as several other instances in the novels such as Assant's force push at Maul also knocking several canisters to either side of Maul, Obi Wan and Anakin force pushing each other 5 months before ROTS and the objects to their sides being affected and many others.
A force "grip" or "force choke" is directed at a single opponent. Force pushes always have side effects. So, even if you are staggered back a step or two by defending yourself against a force push, it still means you are easily comparable to your opponent. Unless you want to argue that Ventress and Anakin are not comparable.
Translation : ragdolling Jedi is the same a ragdolling inanimate objects. A simple - lol - should suffice here. But really - if Kenobi ever Tk stomped the caliber of characters we're discussing, you would jump on such a feat and wave it around as your new red letter. The only reason your so fervent in these arguments is because of the soft territory. Capitalising on the lack of people that can contend with you here, like a big kid in a small school. But the truth is you're nothing more than a little fanboy in need of a spanking. And it's time to get spanked.
Instead of writing "lol" you maybe could write stuff that doesn't make you look like a complete retard. But yeah, literally most of what you have written is complete gibberish and it is obvious that you are simply on a lowballing/trolling spree lmao. All you have done is proved that you literally can't be taken seriously.
Anyways, that was almost obvious from your post on the Mace vs Plagueis thread. Should have been completely obvious then that you were another retard living in the past, and having the typical cognitive dissonance.
As a matter of fact, he has indeed "torn" through the "force shields" which are the only "staple defense mech" for fighting, of Maul and Savage at once in the midst of combat. Like I said, I guess that means that he is now far superior to Dooku, since that was a significantly pre prime version of Obi Wan.
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