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#1 Posted by Cs1013 (39 posts) - - Show Bio

I was unsure if this had been done before , so this is my first topic .

• combatants at their prime

• canon and legends feats apply ( except that ridiculous 2003 cartoon , everything else free game )

• maul can use saberstaff or single blade

BONUS ROUND

• obi wan and anakin get Darth Vader

• mace and maul get count dooku

Who comes out on top ?

Really interested to hear some opinions on this , hope my first day on the vine stimulates some good debate

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#2 Edited by Cs1013 (39 posts) - - Show Bio

Cs1013 marked this as the best answer

@comicgirl21: I gotta disagree, Mace isn't soloing anyone here

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#3 Posted by lilcabbage (381 posts) - - Show Bio

You called tartavosky's creation ridiculous? fuk outa here. mace solos these idiots

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#4 Posted by Cs1013 (39 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by lilcabbage (381 posts) - - Show Bio

@cs1013: nani? mace beat sidious first off. Powerful enough to redirect sidious's lighting to his lightsaber. ill give ya this feat right here too

mace winds creates an after image and blitzes the assassin behind her so as not to harm the ugly baby and maybe you should actually know some star wars knowledge before creating a thread if u are unsure if a topic has been done before look it up lol. Here I just finished ur debate
mace winds creates an after image and blitzes the assassin behind her so as not to harm the ugly baby and maybe you should actually know some star wars knowledge before creating a thread if u are unsure if a topic has been done before look it up lol. Here I just finished ur debate

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#6 Posted by Greysentinel365 (5227 posts) - - Show Bio

canon and legends feats apply ( except that ridiculous 2003 cartoon , everything else free game )

You realise those aren't their best feats right?

Team 1 sweeps.

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#7 Posted by Cs1013 (39 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: you mean the 2003 cartoon ? I mainly say it because it’s exaggerated and inconstient , especially towards Mace , but I could edit it and say it’s allowed

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#8 Edited by Kilius (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

OCW is ridiculously exaggerated, as with TFU, and much of TOR.

I mean seriously did any of those writers watch AotC. Jedi aren't one man army's who can kill legions by the individual. Their supercomandos that can do great things but need to choose their battles carefully. Sheer numbers can certainly overwhelm even a Mace Windu level master.

OT: If this is Jedi Knight Anakin then team 2 gets the majority. Mace is the mvp. If this is Knightfall Vader then it can go either way, perhaps a slight edge for team 1; I have peak Kenobi slightly above Maul.

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#9 Posted by Bayman007 (600 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 because of Mace

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#10 Posted by BreakOfDawn (511 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

OT: If this is Jedi Knight Anakin then team 2 gets the majority. Mace is the mpv. If this is Knight Fall Vader then it can go either way, perhaps a slight edge for team 1; I have peak Kenobi slightly above Maul.

This.

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#11 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (1955 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin>Mace

Kenobi>Maul

Team 1 wins.

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#12 Posted by Kilius (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin>Mace

Kenobi>Maul

Jedi Knight Anakin > Mace?

If it's KF Vader yeah I can see that, though it's close. But Jedi Knight Anakin should only be tier 8 with Kenobi.

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#13 Posted by Cs1013 (39 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: characters are in their prime , all feats leading up to that counts . ( so to answer your question, this anakin up to ROTS)

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#14 Posted by i_like_swords (25987 posts) - - Show Bio

Knightfall Vader is not the same as Anakin. I think Mace helps his team swing it in both rounds.

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#15 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (1955 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Richard96 (5219 posts) - - Show Bio

It depends if this is ROTS Jedi Anakin, at the start of the movie, who is an 8, or KF Vader/Zonakin, who is a 9. In the first case, Mace > anakin and Kenobi = Maul and team 2 wins. In the second, KF Vader beats mace and then team 1 wins.

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#17 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (1729 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

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#18 Posted by Cs1013 (39 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: you think mace has the edge against anakin ? What about Vader and dooku , what’s your perspective on them ?

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#19 Posted by Riddlerfan77 (5734 posts) - - Show Bio

It depends if this is ROTS Jedi Anakin, at the start of the movie, who is an 8, or KF Vader/Zonakin, who is a 9. In the first case, Mace > anakin and Kenobi = Maul and team 2 wins. In the second, KF Vader beats mace and then team 1 wins.

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#20 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (1729 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol at Jedi Anakin not being a 9. Of course we have the statement saying he's an 8 but that is just not true. There is a contradictory source saying he is a 9. Now seen as the 2 sources contradict each other we have to look at other sources to get a defnitive ranking of his power. The problem of arguing he's an 8 is that just about every statement in ROTS disagrees with this as well as other canon sources.

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.

Credit: Labyrinth of Evil

"What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It’s unfair! I’m more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?"

"Take a seat, young Skywalker . . ."

...

Everything in his life had led to this point because Anakin Skywalker’s destiny had been subverted and warped by well-meaning but blind Masters, sending him off on a tangent to do a flawed Palpatine’s bidding instead of realizing his own full power.

I’m more powerful than any of you.

It was a boy’s expression of anger, but it was true.

Credit: Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines

"An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not?"

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

There are about a million other quotes besides this as well these are just the ones I've chosen to use.

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#21 Posted by Richard96 (5219 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

It is blatantly clear that at the start of the movie anakin is not the strongest Jedi. Yoda is. Dooku was able to fight anakin and Kenobi simultaneously, and in the movie he was even at ease with them. He started to lose badly only when he used Dun Moch on anakin who tapped into the DS. At the same time, dooku barely held his own against yoda with much trouble.

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#22 Posted by Kilius (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

Those quotes at the start of the book might be in reference to Anakin's reputation and general perception by the common people.

Anakin is obviously not "the fastest and strongest" Jedi, otherwise, he would be faster than Yoda, which we know isn't true.

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#23 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (1729 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Except in the Nolvelization he got stomped and the film does not directly contradict this. At the start of the fight neither Obi Wan nor Anakin was taking him seriously and Obi Wan still perfectly stonewalled him. As soon as Kenobi is ragdolled then Anakin stomps Dooku as he starts taking it seriously. The only time Dooku looks like he's even remotely holding his own his when he manages to land a kick on Anakin which is the only hit he lands but it matters about as much as Maul kicking Sidious. Dooku got rekt deal with it.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

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#24 Edited by lilcabbage (381 posts) - - Show Bio

wtf are people saying mace still solos.

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#25 Posted by Insanity_ (76 posts) - - Show Bio

Close fight. I'm betting on Skywalker and Kenobi.

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#26 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1195 posts) - - Show Bio

Close fight. I'm betting on Skywalker and Kenobi.

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#27 Posted by RedHeathen (1879 posts) - - Show Bio

This is everyone at their prime, so based on what Lucas said, I don't think there is an argument over who is most powerful:

"Fathered by the force Anakin was the most powerful Jedi/Sith to ever live..."

~Source Disc 2 Star Wars Episode 3 special edition, "the chosen one extended" documentary with George Lucas.

Even Mace says that he is not as powerful as Anakin:

"Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker."

"Mace stood motionless except for the heaving of his chest. He knew already he could not match Vastor for raw power."

~Shatterpoint

Anakin is not fighting against Kenobi, so there should be no emotional issue for him that might hinder his performance. Maul and Kenobi are too evenly matched, but Maul turns to jello sometimes when he fights Kenobi. Sometimes not, but I wouldn't count on him keeping his ish together. Either way, Anakin has top honors in this duel, and with Kenobi and Maul being close to even but giving Kenobi a slight edge over Maul, Team One wins.

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#28 Edited by Kilius (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting to see how the paradigm has shifted in Kenobi vs Maul. It used to be "even in sabers but Maul wins with the Force" now it seems at least half the former Maul supporters have shifted to "peak Kenobi takes a slight edge over Maul tbh".

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#29 Posted by CuckedCurry (563 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace

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#30 Edited by Richard96 (5219 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by Richard96 (5219 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

“Except in the Nolvelization he got stomped and the film does not directly contradict this.”

Instead, the movie contradicts the senior novel badly, and even the junior novel does. In the movie dooku has no trouble with Anakin’s strength, managing even to overpower him (and kenobi) in a bladelock (before kicking anakin and ragdolling kenobi). Dooku was still mocking them and smiling until the rage amp. He wasn’t having half of the trouble he had in the senior novel. Also, the junior novel states neither between dooku and anakin was taking an advantage before the rage amp.

“At the start of the fight neither Obi Wan nor Anakin was taking him seriously and Obi Wan still perfectly stonewalled him.”

Kenobi stonewalled Dooku alone when the latter removed anakin from the fight for few moments with a kick.

“As soon as Kenobi is ragdolled then Anakin stomps Dooku as he starts taking it seriously.”

He already started to take him seriously. In the senior novel, this happens well before the ragdolling of kenobi. In the movie and junior novel, there is no mention of kenobi and anakin not going all out from the beginning. Also, in the senior novel even dooku was holding back at the beginning. Also, the senior novel contradicts badly the movie again when dooku kicks and not ragdolls kenobi to take him out.

“The only time Dooku looks like he's even remotely holding his own his when he manages to land a kick on Anakin which is the only hit he lands but it matters about as much as Maul kicking Sidious. Dooku got rekt deal with it.”

Dooku would have never managed to fight on equal terms, kick and even ragdoll kenobi while dealing with a yoda+ duelist. The movie is the highest form of canon and it is backed even by the junior novel, while the senior novel contradicts badly it. Start of the movie Anakin is an 8, like gillard said, deal with it.

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#32 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (1955 posts) - - Show Bio

lol @Mace soloing

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#33 Posted by mega6382 (1439 posts) - - Show Bio

Obi Wan and Anakin

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#34 Posted by Erkan12 (8065 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace and Maul.

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#35 Edited by Erkan12 (8065 posts) - - Show Bio
@kilius said:

Interesting to see how the paradigm has shifted in Kenobi vs Maul. It used to be "even in sabers but Maul wins with the Force" now it seems at least half the former Maul supporters have shifted to "peak Kenobi takes a slight edge over Maul tbh".

Vader's growth in sabers, and Kenobi's performance against Vader (although defensively only) is the main reason. Ben Kenobi never showed anything impressive as a Force user, on the contrary, Maul read his mind and almost learned his biggest secret on Tatooine and before that Maul sensed Kenobi's presence on Tatooine while Kenobi was trying to hide from him. Kenobi won only by faking his saber style and prior knowledge, plus a huge amp. Without those, Maul should be still superior as he was against Adult Ahsoka.

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#36 Posted by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace and Maul.. Mace could beat Anakin and Obi Wan won't have a significant edge over Maul to beat him before Both Mace and Maul Stomp him in a 2v1. I honestly don't think Obi Wan was much better then Maul do to plot. But overall even if you weren't in agreement with me, the outcome would end the same.

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#37 Posted by marvelfan1992 (1813 posts) - - Show Bio

Why exactly is KF Vader > Mace? Not disputing it, just wondering why since I know Mace can content with Sidious was just surprised

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#38 Edited by Erkan12 (8065 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992 said:

Why exactly is KF Vader > Mace? Not disputing it, just wondering why since I know Mace can content with Sidious was just surprised

KF or Mustafar, Anakin mentally is a tier 8. Mace is a tier 9 both mentally and physically.

The reason why Vader surpassed Sidious as a duelist, is because of his growth in mentality after the Mustafar incident.

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#39 Edited by Kilius (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12 said:
@marvelfan1992 said:

Why exactly is KF Vader > Mace? Not disputing it, just wondering why since I know Mace can content with Sidious was just surprised

KF or Mustafar, Anakin mentally is a tier 8. Mace is a tier 9 both mentally and physically.

The reason why Vader surpassed Sidious as a duelist, is because of his growth in mentality after the Mustafar incident.

He's giving you false information, out of bias.

Mace used to be tier 9.

Now Nick Gillard amended his position and labeled him 8 bordering on 9.

KF Vader is physically 9 but mentally 8.

That said Mace vs KF Vader is highly debatable. Anakin should physically a better fighter by a very tiny amount but Mace is mentally superior. Both factors could turn the tide in their favor.

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#40 Edited by Erkan12 (8065 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:
@erkan12 said:
@marvelfan1992 said:

Why exactly is KF Vader > Mace? Not disputing it, just wondering why since I know Mace can content with Sidious was just surprised

KF or Mustafar, Anakin mentally is a tier 8. Mace is a tier 9 both mentally and physically.

The reason why Vader surpassed Sidious as a duelist, is because of his growth in mentality after the Mustafar incident.

He's giving you false information, out of bias.

Mace used to be tier 9.

Now Nick Gillard amended his position and labeled him 8 bordering on 9.

KF Vader is physically 9 but mentally 8.

That said Mace vs KF Vader is highly debatable. Anakin should physically a better fighter by a very tiny amount but Mace is mentally superior. Both factors could turn the tide in their favor.

''Used to be'' lmao.

Who's deciding that? You?

Gillard said Mace is a tier 9, and he is on the same level with Yoda according to Lucas. There is no ''used to be''... Gillard never said why he should've been a tier 8 bordering to 9 or why Mace shouldn't be a tier 9. He just said two different things which is open to interpretation. Stop spreading misinformation.

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#41 Posted by Kilius (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12:

Please don't ever leave these forums, they just wouldn't ever be the same. I mean that wholeheartedly.

''Used to be'' lmao.

Well, yah.

Who's deciding that? You?

No Gillard. It was CV that decided Kit Fisto was tier 8 and that Dooku was tier 9, but it was Gillard's recent rulings that struck them down to tier 7 and 8 respectfully. His word is the law around here.

Gillard said Mace is a tier 9

Then he changed his ruling to 8 bordering on 9. He changed his ruling on TPM Kenobi and AotC Anakin several times, but we go with his most recent ruling.

and he is on the same level with Yoda according to Lucas.

Approxemently. 8 bordering on 9 is close enough. Even an 8 can beat a 9 though I acknowledge Anakin wasn't mentally 9. Lucas said only Yoda or Mace can compete with the Emporer. That doesn't preclude Yoda being slightly above Mace. An 8 bordering 9 can certainly compete and even beat a tier 9, as he did with Sidious.

There is no ''used to be''...

Erkan please...you're killing me.

Gillard never said why he should've been a tier 8 bordering to 9 or why Mace shouldn't be a tier 9.

Does he need to? Gillard rarely ever gives a 'reason' for his rulings. It's his most recent ruling and best reflects his current position. No reason to take his old ruling over his new one, unless Kit Fisto isn't a tier 7.

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#42 Edited by Erkan12 (8065 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

Does he need to?

Yes he needs to. You can't say two different things then you can't ignore the other just because it suits your purpose, and you can't say it's retconned just because he said a different thing later. He needs to explain why, did he give any explanation why? Did he say that it was wrong to say that Mace was a tier 9 before? No, I've never seen any explanation or any reasoning why saying Mace is a tier 9 is wrong.

Then both statements are open to interprepation.

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#43 Edited by Kilius (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12 said:
@kilius said:

Does he need to?

Yes he needs to. You can't say two different things then you can't ignore the other just because it suits your purpose, and you can't say it's retconned just because he said a different thing later. He needs to explain why, did he give any explanation why? Did he say that it was wrong to say that Mace was a tier 9 before? No, I've never seen any explanation or any reasoning why saying Mace is a tier 9 is wrong.

Then both statements are open to interprepation.

Okay seriously Erkan I like you and think you're a good debater, but this reeks of bias.

"just because it suits your purpose"

Yeah because you totally aren't bias for Mace and aren't using one ruling to suit your purposes.

I'm not a KF Vader or Anakin fanboy. I have Tenebrous above KF Vader and Bane above Jedi Knight Anakin, I have no reason to be partial to Anakin. I'm just simply going with the most recent ruling from Gillard, which seems logical. If Gillard thought Mace was 9 he would have said so in the recent interview, as he said with Anakin in said interview.

Come on just accept it Mace is 8 bordering on 9. He still has a case for beating KF Vader, via superior mentally, anyways.

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#44 Posted by Riddlerfan77 (5734 posts) - - Show Bio

Kenobi and Anakin.

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#45 Posted by Cs1013 (39 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Is there any proof Ben was Amped? or that he was trying to hide from Maul? If not, I can't take those into your argument

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#46 Posted by Cs1013 (39 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: So who do you think takes the Majority?

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#47 Posted by Kilius (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@cs1013:

Peak Kenobi should be RotS Anakin or arguably enofRotS Kenobi after he lets go of all his attachments, even if you go by Disney Canon, so I don't know why Ben is relevant, unless it's just an off topic question.

As for Ben being amped. It's a simple conviction. I mean you could call it a 'motivation amp' but that's kind of like saying Rurouni Kenshin is amped whenever he has something to fight for. It's still his own power and conviction brings out the best in fighters, so I would apply it to him in any case.

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#48 Posted by Kilius (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@cs1013 said:

@kilius: So who do you think takes the Majority?

Probably team 1 if this is KF Vader. KF Vader and Mace match each other, whereas I think RotS Kenobi after he lets go of all his attachments is slight above Maul; this happens at the end of Rots during the Mustafar duel.

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#49 Posted by Cs1013 (39 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: Erkan stated that Ben was amped against maul on Tatooine, which I disagree with but I wanted to see if he had proof

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#50 Posted by ComicGirl21 (832 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace is the only high tier here. He solos.