" @ThaMessenger07: IMO, DD is slight more agile and he is actually better fighter. =] "I would say Daredevil is more agile since he has a greater sense of equilibrium, although I would consider Grayson a better acrobat since he's been doing it since he was a child.
Nightwing VS. Daredevil
" @FinalStar86 said:Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better?" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone.
" @thegentlemanrogue said:Cap said he was a better fighter straight to Iron Fists face, and I tend to take Cap's word at face value." @FinalStar86 said:Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better? Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone. "" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
Based on what exactly? Black Panther and DD have stalemated twice, and considering BP is pushing Captain America attributes he couldn't possibly be on par with Matt's skill or he would roll DD. Panther is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt. but Matt is more skilled. They have even been stated as being perfectly equal on the pages of the Avengers before.
" @FinalStar86 said:The only time that Panther and DD have stalemated was when Panther was under MC, every other time Panther held back on him. Panther is faster stronger more durable AND more skilled then Daredevil is. He would generally beat Daredevil by outclassing him in every aspect just like Cap has." @thegentlemanrogue said:Cap said he was a better fighter straight to Iron Fists face, and I tend to take Cap's word at face value. Based on what exactly? Black Panther and DD have stalemated twice, and considering BP is pushing Captain America attributes he couldn't possibly be on par with Matt's skill or he would roll DD. Panther is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt. but Matt is more skilled. They have even been stated as being perfectly equal on the pages of the Avengers before. "" @FinalStar86 said:Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better? Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone. "" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
I think DD is superior because of Equilibrium so agreed but I wouldn't say he is more Agile or at least not much more agile.
@thegentlemanrogue:
I have those Feats lol Usually I would fight Daredevil is better but I would have to say he isn't a better fighter because I don't think he brings enough Diversity to a fight against other Scrappers. Batman and Nightwing have Ninja Training, son nothing new there, they also have Boxing in fact boxing is the Default for most Scrappers so he brings nothing new to any of them in battle. If it wasn't for his agilities and senses I would put him on par as a fighter. Don't get me wrong he is but it is due to his unique abilities combined with his skills. If he could See I would say he would have to quit lol sorry my opinion. And I love DD. Still think he will win..
" @thegentlemanrogue said:When Panther was MC, DD stated he had to hold back as well because the more he hurt T'Challa the more the MC tightened. As to who had the larger handicap, a MC Black Panther, or a restrained DD... well that is purely guess work. In DD 245 Daredevil and the advantage over Panther when the fight stopped, he dropped him with an axe-handle smash and went to pull the burning armor off some guy, and there was no indication that either Panther or DD was holding back, and in fact Panther is the one is instigated the fight." @FinalStar86 said:The only time that Panther and DD have stalemated was when Panther was under MC, every other time Panther held back on him. Panther is faster stronger more durable AND more skilled then Daredevil is. He would generally beat Daredevil by outclassing him in every aspect just like Cap has. "" @thegentlemanrogue said:Cap said he was a better fighter straight to Iron Fists face, and I tend to take Cap's word at face value. Based on what exactly? Black Panther and DD have stalemated twice, and considering BP is pushing Captain America attributes he couldn't possibly be on par with Matt's skill or he would roll DD. Panther is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt. but Matt is more skilled. They have even been stated as being perfectly equal on the pages of the Avengers before. "" @FinalStar86 said:Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better? Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone. "" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
" @FinalStar86 said:" @thegentlemanrogue said:Cap said he was a better fighter straight to Iron Fists face, and I tend to take Cap's word at face value. Based on what exactly? Black Panther and DD have stalemated twice, and considering BP is pushing Captain America attributes he couldn't possibly be on par with Matt's skill or he would roll DD. Panther is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt. but Matt is more skilled. They have even been stated as being perfectly equal on the pages of the Avengers before. "" @FinalStar86 said:Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better? Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone. "" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
What were the circumstances of BP's stalemates....... He really should not be in the same league as DD......
@thegentlemanrogue said:
" @velle37 said:" @thegentlemanrogue said:How is he not? He as pretty much identical feats of skill, and his pressure point feats are arguable superior. As for strength Matt has flipped over a limo, used a 400lbs barbell as a bo-staff than tossed it clear a cross a room. He is pushing peak human "How is DD on Batman's level of skill? Strength too? ""Even pre-Shadow Land the simple reality of the situation is that Nightwing is significantly outclassed. For all intensive purposes Daredevil is essentially Batman and Nigthwing in one package, he has the speed and agility of Nightwing, along with the strength and skill of Batman... and then super senses on top of it. I recognize that Dick has been upgraded a lot in the passed decade, that - among other things - he thinks he can beat Cassandra Cain in a fight eventually, but it wasn't so long ago that Batman showed definitively that Dick couldn't even land a single hit on him that he didn't allow. Nigthwing just quite isn't on the same level as the top tier street level MAs, and he isn't going to pose much of a problem for Daredevil. "
if DD has the strenght feats you say, then he's upthere.... But Bats has kicked through foot-thick steel doors........
DD is nowhere near bats in skill... He has speed agility reflexes and radar which usually give him an edge.... But Bats has the knowledge of hundreds of Martial Arts....
The circumstances behind BP defeat were that Matt is a better fighter than he is." @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:Cap said he was a better fighter straight to Iron Fists face, and I tend to take Cap's word at face value. Based on what exactly? Black Panther and DD have stalemated twice, and considering BP is pushing Captain America attributes he couldn't possibly be on par with Matt's skill or he would roll DD. Panther is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt. but Matt is more skilled. They have even been stated as being perfectly equal on the pages of the Avengers before. "" @FinalStar86 said:Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better? Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone. "" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
What were the circumstances of BP's stalemates....... He really should not be in the same league as DD......
@thegentlemanrogue said:if DD has the strenght feats you say, then he's upthere.... But Bats has kicked through foot-thick steel doors........ DD is nowhere near bats in skill... He has speed agility reflexes and radar which usually give him an edge.... But Bats has the knowledge of hundreds of Martial Arts.... "" @velle37 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:How is he not? He as pretty much identical feats of skill, and his pressure point feats are arguable superior. As for strength Matt has flipped over a limo, used a 400lbs barbell as a bo-staff than tossed it clear a cross a room. He is pushing peak human "How is DD on Batman's level of skill? Strength too? ""Even pre-Shadow Land the simple reality of the situation is that Nightwing is significantly outclassed. For all intensive purposes Daredevil is essentially Batman and Nigthwing in one package, he has the speed and agility of Nightwing, along with the strength and skill of Batman... and then super senses on top of it. I recognize that Dick has been upgraded a lot in the passed decade, that - among other things - he thinks he can beat Cassandra Cain in a fight eventually, but it wasn't so long ago that Batman showed definitively that Dick couldn't even land a single hit on him that he didn't allow. Nigthwing just quite isn't on the same level as the top tier street level MAs, and he isn't going to pose much of a problem for Daredevil. "
Daredevil has kicked down thick steel doors as well, pretty every street level hero has... it's not even worth bring up really.
Marvel has always left it kinda off ambiguous as to how my styles DD actually knows. Off the top of my head he knows Eskrima, Judo, Aikito and Jujutsu, and obviously Ninjutsu and boxing... but it has been pretty vague on just what Stick and the Chaste taught him. We know that Punisher is a master of dozens of different martial arts, and Daredevil as literally steam rolled Frank on different occasions. With that all said, knowing a large number of styles doesn't necessarily translate into being better than someone who has spent their life mastering one.
Handbooks are secondary canon companion pieces, they don't over rule primary canon source material." @velle37: Daredevil's strength feats are way out of context, he's classified as Olympic level in terms of physical stats. He's not peak. "
"if DD has the strenght feats you say, then he's upthere.... But Bats has kicked through foot-thick steel doors........ DD is nowhere near bats in skill... He has speed agility reflexes and radar which usually give him an edge.... But Bats has the knowledge of hundreds of Martial Arts.... "Agreed! Here are those Feats tho. DD is quite Strong.
Gallery
Gallery
" @thegentlemanrogue: Handbooks are written by Marvel and they state what a character should be, Most of Daredevils strength feats are massive PIS especially the limo flipping. "Like I said, they are secondary companion pieces to the primary canon source material, if there is a discrepancy then the comics overrule whatever is in the Handbooks easily. Not to mention the Hanbooks are full of mistakes, they are the reason we still have people who think Captain America's shield is an Adamantium / Vibranium hybrid. Citing a Handbook is only slightly more valid than citing a wiki entry or a fan fiction.
I Disagree they tend to go against the constant feats of other characters. They created this base guideline in the 70's and never updated it accordingly. That why you have 100 tons as the benchmark though most characters that are classified 100 are lifting in the 1,000 ton up range.
" @FinalStar86: I Disagree they tend to go against the constant feats of other characters. They created this base guideline in the 70's and never updated it accordingly. That why you have 100 tons as the benchmark though most characters that are classified 100 are lifting in the 1,000 ton up range. "Yeah seriously, the Hulk was freaking holding tectonic plates together which a billion ton feat. The Handbooks are so out of date and inaccurate it would be funny if it wasn't sad.
Class 6 up to 100 tons
Class 7 100 tons minimum, there is no cap on it.
I can understand your lack of faith in the handbook, that's fine but as far as DD goes his strenght feats are waaay out of proportion with what he should be. The only thing above olympic level that Daredevil has are his senses and maybe his agility, his physical strenght and speed are olympic level at the very best.
" @ThaMessenger07: The 100 ton bench mark is where they stop counting because they don't want to put a strenght cap on certain characters. I can understand your lack of faith in the handbook, that's fine but as far as DD goes his strenght feats are waaay out of proportion with what he should be. The only thing above olympic level that Daredevil has are his senses and maybe his agility, his physical strenght and speed are olympic level at the very best. "You realize of course that your stance is that comic books are meaningless and that one could simple read a Handbook entry and have enough information to make an informed decision on what a character is a capable of...
I guess you didn't read my previous post, I already stated that I understand why people disregard the handbook. My argument is that Daredevil's strength feats are not consistent and are massive PIS especially the instances with the limo." @FinalStar86 said:
" @ThaMessenger07: The 100 ton bench mark is where they stop counting because they don't want to put a strenght cap on certain characters. I can understand your lack of faith in the handbook, that's fine but as far as DD goes his strenght feats are waaay out of proportion with what he should be. The only thing above olympic level that Daredevil has are his senses and maybe his agility, his physical strenght and speed are olympic level at the very best. "You realize of course that your stance is that comic books are meaningless and that one could simple read a Handbook entry and have enough information to make an informed decision on what a character is a capable of... "
" @thegentlemanrogue said:Says the man who references Batman kicking someone through a blast door....I guess you didn't read my previous post, I already stated that I understand why people disregard the handbook. My argument is that Daredevil's strength feats are not consistent and are massive PIS especially the instances with the limo. "" @FinalStar86 said:
" @ThaMessenger07: The 100 ton bench mark is where they stop counting because they don't want to put a strenght cap on certain characters. I can understand your lack of faith in the handbook, that's fine but as far as DD goes his strenght feats are waaay out of proportion with what he should be. The only thing above olympic level that Daredevil has are his senses and maybe his agility, his physical strenght and speed are olympic level at the very best. "You realize of course that your stance is that comic books are meaningless and that one could simple read a Handbook entry and have enough information to make an informed decision on what a character is a capable of... "
" @FinalStar86 said:At least Batman's strength feats are consistent, you seem to have trouble grasping this concept" @thegentlemanrogue said:Says the man who references Batman kicking someone through a blast door.... "I guess you didn't read my previous post, I already stated that I understand why people disregard the handbook. My argument is that Daredevil's strength feats are not consistent and are massive PIS especially the instances with the limo. "" @FinalStar86 said:
" @ThaMessenger07: The 100 ton bench mark is where they stop counting because they don't want to put a strenght cap on certain characters. I can understand your lack of faith in the handbook, that's fine but as far as DD goes his strenght feats are waaay out of proportion with what he should be. The only thing above olympic level that Daredevil has are his senses and maybe his agility, his physical strenght and speed are olympic level at the very best. "You realize of course that your stance is that comic books are meaningless and that one could simple read a Handbook entry and have enough information to make an informed decision on what a character is a capable of... "
Applying logic based on size and weight is bad if thats what your doing. Nightwing has punched fist sized craters into concrete and steel walls like nothing as well as supporting a rooftop or a wall(he struggled but still did it). He is 5'10 and weighs 175. if He can do that then I can grasp DD fliping a Limo which isn't out of a 6'0 200lbs olympic lifters range. They say he can lift up to 450 lbs over head according to the handbooks. If we use those as reference then it means he can lift probably well over. Peak Human is said to be at 800lbs over head. That is insane and the fact that it is the starting point for Peak human means DD's feats with the Bar and the Limo are completely comparable.
" @thegentlemanrogue said:lol" @FinalStar86 said:At least Batman's strength feats are consistent, you seem to have trouble grasping this concept "" @thegentlemanrogue said:Says the man who references Batman kicking someone through a blast door.... "I guess you didn't read my previous post, I already stated that I understand why people disregard the handbook. My argument is that Daredevil's strength feats are not consistent and are massive PIS especially the instances with the limo. "" @FinalStar86 said:
" @ThaMessenger07: The 100 ton bench mark is where they stop counting because they don't want to put a strenght cap on certain characters. I can understand your lack of faith in the handbook, that's fine but as far as DD goes his strenght feats are waaay out of proportion with what he should be. The only thing above olympic level that Daredevil has are his senses and maybe his agility, his physical strenght and speed are olympic level at the very best. "You realize of course that your stance is that comic books are meaningless and that one could simple read a Handbook entry and have enough information to make an informed decision on what a character is a capable of... "
Kicking someone through a blast door is soooooooooooooo far from anything close to constant with the rest Batman's strength feats that isn't on the same planet.
" @FinalStar86: Applying logic based on size and weight is bad if thats what your doing. Nightwing has punched fist sized craters into concrete and steel walls like nothing as well as supporting a rooftop or a wall(he struggled but still did it). He is 5'10 and weighs 175. if He can do that then I can grasp DD fliping a Limo which isn't out of a 6'0 200lbs olympic lifters range. They say he can lift up to 450 lbs over head according to the handbooks. If we use those as reference then it means he can lift probably well over. Peak Human is said to be at 800lbs over head. That is insane and the fact that it is the starting point for Peak human means DD's feats with the Bar and the Limo are completely comparable. "Applying strength based on a characters height and weight is bad too. These two Nightwing feats can't even be calculated properly and Nightwing holding up part of a building is ridiculous as well. I'm not implying that Grayson is stronger then Daredevil is physically. As far as I'm concerned both feats are a case of PIS. Both feats are out of context and inconsistent.
" @FinalStar86 said:lol I can already tell that you haven't read many Batman comics and have very little knowledge of the character. Batman has numerous feats that are well above peak human. It's understandable to call that feat PIS if you want. He has plenty of others feats that are consistent." @thegentlemanrogue said:lol Kicking someone through a blast door is soooooooooooooo far from anything close to constant with the rest Batman's strength feats that isn't on the same planet. "" @FinalStar86 said:At least Batman's strength feats are consistent, you seem to have trouble grasping this concept "" @thegentlemanrogue said:Says the man who references Batman kicking someone through a blast door.... "I guess you didn't read my previous post, I already stated that I understand why people disregard the handbook. My argument is that Daredevil's strength feats are not consistent and are massive PIS especially the instances with the limo. "" @FinalStar86 said:
" @ThaMessenger07: The 100 ton bench mark is where they stop counting because they don't want to put a strenght cap on certain characters. I can understand your lack of faith in the handbook, that's fine but as far as DD goes his strenght feats are waaay out of proportion with what he should be. The only thing above olympic level that Daredevil has are his senses and maybe his agility, his physical strenght and speed are olympic level at the very best. "You realize of course that your stance is that comic books are meaningless and that one could simple read a Handbook entry and have enough information to make an informed decision on what a character is a capable of... "
Nightwing. Why? He's Batman's right hand man and 2nd in command of the Bat-Family for a reason.
And he's muthaf#$king Nightwing/Batman
I think based on consistent Feats of throwing around 400lbs men like they were toys is enough to say that these guys even when said to be Olympic, are Greater in Scale then any Human that exist. And I just used Height and weight as a reference to how you were determining there strength. I know it does not apply.
" @FinalStar86: I think based on consistent Feats of throwing around 400lbs men like they were toys is enough to say that these guys even when said to be Olympic, are Greater in Scale then any Human that exist. And I just used Height and weight as a reference to how you were determining there strength. I know it does not apply. "Not a consistent feat. I've been reading a lot of Daredevil from his current and previous series and the strength feats shown on this thread are not consistent and are massive PIS.
Black Canary can throw around men that weigh a lot also, throwing is more about using momentum and force vs physical strength. One instance I can recall is when Daredevil carried some guy that was shot to the hospital, the guy weighed in at 250 lbs and Daredevil looked pretty fatigued when they arrived.
Do you understand what the word consistent even means? Kicking someone through a blast door isn't remotely comparable to breaking missle proof class or supporting a 1000 bound ceiling or lifting a totem pole. You must operate in very brood definitions...." @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @FinalStar86 said:lol I can already tell that you haven't read many Batman comics and have very little knowledge of the character. Batman has numerous feats that are well above peak human. It's understandable to call that feat PIS if you want. He has plenty of others feats that are consistent. "" @thegentlemanrogue said:lol Kicking someone through a blast door is soooooooooooooo far from anything close to constant with the rest Batman's strength feats that isn't on the same planet. "" @FinalStar86 said:At least Batman's strength feats are consistent, you seem to have trouble grasping this concept "" @thegentlemanrogue said:Says the man who references Batman kicking someone through a blast door.... "I guess you didn't read my previous post, I already stated that I understand why people disregard the handbook. My argument is that Daredevil's strength feats are not consistent and are massive PIS especially the instances with the limo. "" @FinalStar86 said:
" @ThaMessenger07: The 100 ton bench mark is where they stop counting because they don't want to put a strenght cap on certain characters. I can understand your lack of faith in the handbook, that's fine but as far as DD goes his strenght feats are waaay out of proportion with what he should be. The only thing above olympic level that Daredevil has are his senses and maybe his agility, his physical strenght and speed are olympic level at the very best. "You realize of course that your stance is that comic books are meaningless and that one could simple read a Handbook entry and have enough information to make an informed decision on what a character is a capable of... "
Which in my opinion is closer to PIS then him flipping the Limo. When I mean he tosses 400lbs men I mean He Stands there Picks them up Over head and Tosses them. He has Been Able to this to King Pin. Like He was a Pro Wrestler Military Pressing Fools lol. If you can not see his strength for what it is I suggest you go further back and see what he can really do. In Most arcs except for the Millar written stuff(which is still brilliant) he is doing some heavy Lifting.
" @FinalStar86: Which in my opinion is closer to PIS then him flipping the Limo. When I mean he tosses 400lbs men I mean He Stands there Picks them up Over head and Tosses them. He has Been Able to this to King Pin. Like He was a Pro Wrestler Military Pressing Fools lol. If you can not see his strength for what it is I suggest you go further back and see what he can really do. In Most arcs except for the Millar written stuff(which is still brilliant) he is doing some heavy Lifting. "I really don't think either is closer to PIS then the other, both are flat out PIS. As far the Kingpin goes he weighs 450lbs according to a more recent handbook entry and while I understand that handbook's may not be valid when it comes to measuring a characters capabilities, a characters height and weight aren't really debatable. I am reading through Miller's work on Daredevil, he has impressive strength feats but nothing to put him at peak human.
No I Meant Disregarding Millar's work. He is the one that Made Daredevil more human and brought back down to earth. He is also the one that dumbed down his senses. Any writer besides him has always put DD's Senses to another level while he kept them in the range of Master martial Artist trained to function blind with greater senses.
" @FinalStar86: No I Meant Disregarding Millar's work. He is the one that Made Daredevil more human and brought back down to earth. He is also the one that dumbed down his senses. Any writer besides him has always put DD's Senses to another level while he kept them in the range of Master martial Artist trained to function blind with greater senses. "Yeah but to be fair Miller turned him into more of a ninja type character where before he used boxing and acrobatics to fight. That kind of makes up for toning his senses down.
Has Daredevil ever tried to lift anything and failed? I remember he tried to lift one of Things barbells that was anchored to the ground once and failed... but that isn't surprising, that would be like a class 70 feat of strength. Other than that the limo flip and barbell toss fall pretty well inline with the majority of his strength feats.
Yeah it did and Millar's run is the reason I became a fan.
I really don't think either is closer to PIS then the other, both are flat out PIS. As far the Kingpin goes he weighs 450lbs according to a more recent handbook entry and while I understand that handbook's may not be valid when it comes to measuring a characters capabilities, a characters height and weight aren't really debatable. I am reading through Miller's work on Daredevil, he has impressive strength feats but nothing to put him at peak human. "Daredevil doesn't have to be peak human to flip a limo.He barely got it up If you look at the entirety of the scans he's straining.You think Cap or Batman would be straining to flip a limo? Don't see how you're calling any of Daredevil's strength feats PIS because he's never shown signs he couldn't lift or move anything he has.Daredevil barely every lifts anything or uses his strength so if you've never seen anything to put him at peak human...well it's obvious why you haven't.DD isn't anything like Wolverine or Cap or any of the other street levelers with a good level of lifting feats.He's a finesse character.Lifitng is almost never a priority.
" @FinalStar86 said:I get the part of Daredevil lacking lifting feats compared to other characters, fine. But I really don't see Cap or Bats being able to flip a limo either if they stayed in their range of physical strength.I really don't think either is closer to PIS then the other, both are flat out PIS. As far the Kingpin goes he weighs 450lbs according to a more recent handbook entry and while I understand that handbook's may not be valid when it comes to measuring a characters capabilities, a characters height and weight aren't really debatable. I am reading through Miller's work on Daredevil, he has impressive strength feats but nothing to put him at peak human. "Daredevil doesn't have to be peak human to flip a limo.He barely got it up If you look at the entirety of the scans he's straining.You think Cap or Batman would be straining to flip a limo? Don't see how you're calling any of Daredevil's strength feats PIS because he's never shown signs he couldn't lift or move anything he has.Daredevil barely every lifts anything or uses his strength so if you've never seen anything to put him at peak human...well it's obvious why you haven't.DD isn't anything like Wolverine or Cap or any of the other street levelers with a good level of lifting feats.He's a finesse character.Lifitng is almost never a priority. "
" @Vance Astro said:You think it is feasible that Batman could punch someone through a blast door, but you don't think he could flip a limo? So is it your estimation that punching someone through a blast door would require less strength than flipping a limo onto its side?" @FinalStar86 said:I get the part of Daredevil lacking lifting feats compared to other characters, fine. But I really don't see Cap or Bats being able to flip a limo either if they stayed in their range of physical strength. "I really don't think either is closer to PIS then the other, both are flat out PIS. As far the Kingpin goes he weighs 450lbs according to a more recent handbook entry and while I understand that handbook's may not be valid when it comes to measuring a characters capabilities, a characters height and weight aren't really debatable. I am reading through Miller's work on Daredevil, he has impressive strength feats but nothing to put him at peak human. "Daredevil doesn't have to be peak human to flip a limo.He barely got it up If you look at the entirety of the scans he's straining.You think Cap or Batman would be straining to flip a limo? Don't see how you're calling any of Daredevil's strength feats PIS because he's never shown signs he couldn't lift or move anything he has.Daredevil barely every lifts anything or uses his strength so if you've never seen anything to put him at peak human...well it's obvious why you haven't.DD isn't anything like Wolverine or Cap or any of the other street levelers with a good level of lifting feats.He's a finesse character.Lifitng is almost never a priority. "
Never really understood the limo feat. But, if it's valid, it puts a lot of street levelers with enhanced physical abilities to shame.
" @FinalStar86 said:Batman slamming a guy through a blast door is out of his strength range, I'm saying that I don't think any street level character should be able to flip a limo if they stayed in their strength range." @Vance Astro said:You think it is feasible that Batman could punch someone through a blast door, but you don't think he could flip a limo? So is it your estimation that punching someone through a blast door would require less strength than flipping a limo onto its side? "" @FinalStar86 said:I get the part of Daredevil lacking lifting feats compared to other characters, fine. But I really don't see Cap or Bats being able to flip a limo either if they stayed in their range of physical strength. "I really don't think either is closer to PIS then the other, both are flat out PIS. As far the Kingpin goes he weighs 450lbs according to a more recent handbook entry and while I understand that handbook's may not be valid when it comes to measuring a characters capabilities, a characters height and weight aren't really debatable. I am reading through Miller's work on Daredevil, he has impressive strength feats but nothing to put him at peak human. "Daredevil doesn't have to be peak human to flip a limo.He barely got it up If you look at the entirety of the scans he's straining.You think Cap or Batman would be straining to flip a limo? Don't see how you're calling any of Daredevil's strength feats PIS because he's never shown signs he couldn't lift or move anything he has.Daredevil barely every lifts anything or uses his strength so if you've never seen anything to put him at peak human...well it's obvious why you haven't.DD isn't anything like Wolverine or Cap or any of the other street levelers with a good level of lifting feats.He's a finesse character.Lifitng is almost never a priority. "
I get the part of Daredevil lacking lifting feats compared to other characters, fine. But I really don't see Cap or Bats being able to flip a limo either if they stayed in their range of physical strength. "I think you are applying the actual weight of a limo to what a peak human should be able to lift or move rather than considering what these characters have shown.Both Bats and Cap have better strength feats than flipping a limo.
" Never really understood the limo feat. But, if it's valid, it puts a lot of street levelers with enhanced physical abilities to shame. "Like who?
" @velle37 said:The circumstances behind BP defeat were that Matt is a better fighter than he is. Daredevil has kicked down thick steel doors as well, pretty every street level hero has... it's not even worth bring up really. Marvel has always left it kinda off ambiguous as to how my styles DD actually knows. Off the top of my head he knows Eskrima, Judo, Aikito and Jujutsu, and obviously Ninjutsu and boxing... but it has been pretty vague on just what Stick and the Chaste taught him. We know that Punisher is a master of dozens of different martial arts, and Daredevil as literally steam rolled Frank on different occasions. With that all said, knowing a large number of styles doesn't necessarily translate into being better than someone who has spent their life mastering one. "" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:Cap said he was a better fighter straight to Iron Fists face, and I tend to take Cap's word at face value. Based on what exactly? Black Panther and DD have stalemated twice, and considering BP is pushing Captain America attributes he couldn't possibly be on par with Matt's skill or he would roll DD. Panther is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt. but Matt is more skilled. They have even been stated as being perfectly equal on the pages of the Avengers before. "" @FinalStar86 said:Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better? Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone. "" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
What were the circumstances of BP's stalemates....... He really should not be in the same league as DD......
@thegentlemanrogue said:if DD has the strenght feats you say, then he's upthere.... But Bats has kicked through foot-thick steel doors........ DD is nowhere near bats in skill... He has speed agility reflexes and radar which usually give him an edge.... But Bats has the knowledge of hundreds of Martial Arts.... "" @velle37 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:How is he not? He as pretty much identical feats of skill, and his pressure point feats are arguable superior. As for strength Matt has flipped over a limo, used a 400lbs barbell as a bo-staff than tossed it clear a cross a room. He is pushing peak human "How is DD on Batman's level of skill? Strength too? ""Even pre-Shadow Land the simple reality of the situation is that Nightwing is significantly outclassed. For all intensive purposes Daredevil is essentially Batman and Nigthwing in one package, he has the speed and agility of Nightwing, along with the strength and skill of Batman... and then super senses on top of it. I recognize that Dick has been upgraded a lot in the passed decade, that - among other things - he thinks he can beat Cassandra Cain in a fight eventually, but it wasn't so long ago that Batman showed definitively that Dick couldn't even land a single hit on him that he didn't allow. Nigthwing just quite isn't on the same level as the top tier street level MAs, and he isn't going to pose much of a problem for Daredevil. "
DD needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with radar and agility and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate BP, or Bats, or NW......
But eh.......
If you say it like that it works for anyone" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @velle37 said:DD needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with radar and agility and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate BP, or Bats, or NW...... But eh....... "The circumstances behind BP defeat were that Matt is a better fighter than he is. Daredevil has kicked down thick steel doors as well, pretty every street level hero has... it's not even worth bring up really. Marvel has always left it kinda off ambiguous as to how my styles DD actually knows. Off the top of my head he knows Eskrima, Judo, Aikito and Jujutsu, and obviously Ninjutsu and boxing... but it has been pretty vague on just what Stick and the Chaste taught him. We know that Punisher is a master of dozens of different martial arts, and Daredevil as literally steam rolled Frank on different occasions. With that all said, knowing a large number of styles doesn't necessarily translate into being better than someone who has spent their life mastering one. "" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:Cap said he was a better fighter straight to Iron Fists face, and I tend to take Cap's word at face value. Based on what exactly? Black Panther and DD have stalemated twice, and considering BP is pushing Captain America attributes he couldn't possibly be on par with Matt's skill or he would roll DD. Panther is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt. but Matt is more skilled. They have even been stated as being perfectly equal on the pages of the Avengers before. "" @FinalStar86 said:Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better? Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone. "" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
What were the circumstances of BP's stalemates....... He really should not be in the same league as DD......
@thegentlemanrogue said:if DD has the strenght feats you say, then he's upthere.... But Bats has kicked through foot-thick steel doors........ DD is nowhere near bats in skill... He has speed agility reflexes and radar which usually give him an edge.... But Bats has the knowledge of hundreds of Martial Arts.... "" @velle37 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:How is he not? He as pretty much identical feats of skill, and his pressure point feats are arguable superior. As for strength Matt has flipped over a limo, used a 400lbs barbell as a bo-staff than tossed it clear a cross a room. He is pushing peak human "How is DD on Batman's level of skill? Strength too? ""Even pre-Shadow Land the simple reality of the situation is that Nightwing is significantly outclassed. For all intensive purposes Daredevil is essentially Batman and Nigthwing in one package, he has the speed and agility of Nightwing, along with the strength and skill of Batman... and then super senses on top of it. I recognize that Dick has been upgraded a lot in the passed decade, that - among other things - he thinks he can beat Cassandra Cain in a fight eventually, but it wasn't so long ago that Batman showed definitively that Dick couldn't even land a single hit on him that he didn't allow. Nigthwing just quite isn't on the same level as the top tier street level MAs, and he isn't going to pose much of a problem for Daredevil. "
Batman needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with a cape, some gadgets and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate...
Captain American needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with an American Flag suit, steroids and a few MA skills shouldn't be beat or even stalemate...
Daredevil has years of character development, he has received trained by one of the best fighters on Marvel Earth, namely Stick. He has 30+ years and a thousand appearances... why is it a shock that he is a top tier fighter?
DD's abilities have been explained.Maybe read the comics first.DD needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with radar and agility and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate BP, or Bats, or NW...... But eh....... "
"@velle37 said:DD's abilities have been explained.Maybe read the comics first. "DD needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with radar and agility and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate BP, or Bats, or NW...... But eh....... "
Your comment was not needed. Thank you. If you have something constructive to add, you may respond.
@thegentlemanrogue said:
" @velle37 said:If you say it like that it works for anyone Batman needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with a cape, some gadgets and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate... Captain American needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with an American Flag suit, steroids and a few MA skills shouldn't be beat or even stalemate... Daredevil has years of character development, he has received trained by one of the best fighters on Marvel Earth, namely Stick. He has 30+ years and a thousand appearances... why is it a shock that he is a top tier fighter? "" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @velle37 said:DD needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with radar and agility and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate BP, or Bats, or NW...... But eh....... "The circumstances behind BP defeat were that Matt is a better fighter than he is. Daredevil has kicked down thick steel doors as well, pretty every street level hero has... it's not even worth bring up really. Marvel has always left it kinda off ambiguous as to how my styles DD actually knows. Off the top of my head he knows Eskrima, Judo, Aikito and Jujutsu, and obviously Ninjutsu and boxing... but it has been pretty vague on just what Stick and the Chaste taught him. We know that Punisher is a master of dozens of different martial arts, and Daredevil as literally steam rolled Frank on different occasions. With that all said, knowing a large number of styles doesn't necessarily translate into being better than someone who has spent their life mastering one. "" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:Cap said he was a better fighter straight to Iron Fists face, and I tend to take Cap's word at face value. Based on what exactly? Black Panther and DD have stalemated twice, and considering BP is pushing Captain America attributes he couldn't possibly be on par with Matt's skill or he would roll DD. Panther is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt. but Matt is more skilled. They have even been stated as being perfectly equal on the pages of the Avengers before. "" @FinalStar86 said:Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better? Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone. "" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
What were the circumstances of BP's stalemates....... He really should not be in the same league as DD......
@thegentlemanrogue said:if DD has the strenght feats you say, then he's upthere.... But Bats has kicked through foot-thick steel doors........ DD is nowhere near bats in skill... He has speed agility reflexes and radar which usually give him an edge.... But Bats has the knowledge of hundreds of Martial Arts.... "" @velle37 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:How is he not? He as pretty much identical feats of skill, and his pressure point feats are arguable superior. As for strength Matt has flipped over a limo, used a 400lbs barbell as a bo-staff than tossed it clear a cross a room. He is pushing peak human "How is DD on Batman's level of skill? Strength too? ""Even pre-Shadow Land the simple reality of the situation is that Nightwing is significantly outclassed. For all intensive purposes Daredevil is essentially Batman and Nigthwing in one package, he has the speed and agility of Nightwing, along with the strength and skill of Batman... and then super senses on top of it. I recognize that Dick has been upgraded a lot in the passed decade, that - among other things - he thinks he can beat Cassandra Cain in a fight eventually, but it wasn't so long ago that Batman showed definitively that Dick couldn't even land a single hit on him that he didn't allow. Nigthwing just quite isn't on the same level as the top tier street level MAs, and he isn't going to pose much of a problem for Daredevil. "
Because DD hasn't been characterized as such. You yourself said DD's MA history is vague, but I'm wrong for asking for clarification? huh?.....
Every other comic says something about Batman mastering all styles oof combat in the world and being the greatest detective, how BP is the 8th smartest person in the world, with world class MA skills, magic enhancements, resources, and a contingency for everything, NW is the best human acrobat in the entire DCU, and an avid learner under Bruce, incredibly intelligent, with an impressively proficient tactical mind... That's reiterated in just about all of their comics..... DD's incredible skills are not...... He has feats with no clear backstory as to how he can acomplish these feats.....
DD hasn't impressed me with anything to the point that i would think he's top tier or even "deserves" to be top tier........
That's simply the situation.
When the word moderator appears under your name you can talk to me like that.Otherwise,don't tell me what I may and may not do.Your lack of knowledge on Daredevil is obvious.Thus you might want to know what you are talking about before you appear to not know the basics about a character that has been around for 20+ years.Your comment was not needed. Thank you. If you have something constructive to add, you may respond.
@velle37 said:
Daredevil's martial arts history actually isn't vague.Don't go by what people say.Actually read the comics.Or at the very least read a bio or two.DD's incredible skills are skills he learned from various Ninja Masters of the Chaste.DD may not be top tier to you but he doesn't need to be top tier because Nightwing isnt' either.Because DD hasn't been characterized as such. You yourself said DD's MA history is vague, but I'm wrong for asking for clarification? huh?..... Every other comic says something about Batman mastering all styles oof combat in the world and being the greatest detective, how BP is the 8th smartest person in the world, with world class MA skills, magic enhancements, resources, and a contingency for everything, NW is the best human acrobat in the entire DCU, and an avid learner under Bruce, incredibly intelligent, with an impressively proficient tactical mind... That's reiterated in just about all of their comics..... DD's incredible skills are not...... He has feats with no clear backstory as to how he can acomplish these feats..... DD hasn't impressed me with anything to the point that i would think he's top tier or even "deserves" to be top tier........ That's simply the situation. "
If I can name more than 10 characters that are more skilled than that character..they aren't top tier." @Vance Astro: What do you consider top tier? "
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