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#51 Posted by comicace3 (12434 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing takes this.

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#52 Posted by AcroKat (7384 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: Seems unlikely he did when you consider that he'd first have to overpower the demons grasp to actually kick it, and we know he's nowhere near as strong as it. Maybe a shock?

He wouldn't have needed to overpower the demon. His legs and arms weren't grabbed, just his torso, so with his skill+agility+flexibility, he could have just slipped out/around the demon's grasp.

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#53 Posted by buildhare (8649 posts) - - Show Bio

@acrokat:

"Withstood" might be better but I don't think it matters. Bucky can't hit Grayson anyway.

Just "taking" the hit would be best, because being left in a daze doesn't really scream withstanding something to me. You're right though it doesn't matter.

Why not?

When he threw the stick he also started an entire conversation with the demon and witch lady lol. It is not a surprise at that point.

An entire conversation?

No Caption Provided

That's the first time Nightwing attacks, talks or generally reveals himself. You can see he attacks the demon straight away after throwing the stick, there's no delay for banter or conversing just him speaking as he attacks.

Yeah, he kicked and hurt him. You can see where he goes "EHNN!"

Well it looks like a kick but he may have been somersaulting out after zapping him, it doesn't make sense for the Demon to have him firmly grasped the panel before and have Dick breaking out the next, and I know you don't think Dick is stronger than the Demon.

If it was a kick can you see how it would be inconsistent given the Demon no sold a better hit earlier?

Like his fight with Batman in Nightwing 30 (stronger as in striking power). Bruce kicked him so hard it split a motorcycle in half. Nightwing came out on top in the fight.

Did he kick the bike or kick Dick into the bike?

His fight with Midnighter in Grayson, the first one he's fighting evenly, the second one he gains the upper hand (And wins but that win was due to context, other than that the fight was initially stacked against Grayson).

I haven't read it yet but I've heard Midnighter was wrecking him up until he changed styles, and even then only had an advantage for a short amount of time.

He also easily physically restrained a Talon with one leg, and they are enhanced to superhuman.

When?

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#54 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

Posted some scans above, it's from Nightwing (2011) issue 30. They basically wrecked the entire Batcave in their fight, crushed the Batmobile, Bruce kicked Dick through a motorcycle (he was fine), sent each other flying with blows, all that jazz

Sending people the distance they did isn't really SSS level, I don't think any hit in that fight was on par with what Bucky can dish out. Batman got most of the good durability feats as well (mainly the Batmobile crush).

How do you quantify Dick taking the bike kick? It was kicked with enough force to break the bike but compare that to how people on Bucky's tier in the MCU have interacted with similar weighted objects (i.e Cap's bike throw, truck kick, Ultron throw) and I think it's pretty clear they could surpass that hit if they were in Batman's place.

Never said it was flat out better than anything they've done, but it's good enough to be comparable

Dick had to charge with enough force to flatten the Batmobile like that (after all, it's not like the Batmobile's just a regular car)

Kicking a regular person, let alone a fighter like Nightwing, clean through a motorcycle would definitely rank among impressive SSS feats

@wewlad80 said:

Yes because Dick is in big trouble here.

He Traded Blows with a Bloodlusted ironman and Tagged him Multiple Times, The same ironman that can Dodge Tank shells after they are fired Casually in an Older Suit.

No Caption Provided

No hes not, Bucky is actually Faster than him as he dodged Falcons guns when he shot at him aswell as smacking away gunfire with his arm. Also Bucky can move as fast as Cars.

So you don't see how comparing Bucky to Thanos is ridiculous?

Right, because it's not like basically every member of the Batfamily can bullet time..oh wait, they can

As one example

Dodging shots from a guy who can predict Nightiwng's every move

Or dodging gunfire despite being mentally attacked

No Caption Provided

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#55 Posted by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@buildhare said:
@arcus1 said:

Posted some scans above, it's from Nightwing (2011) issue 30. They basically wrecked the entire Batcave in their fight, crushed the Batmobile, Bruce kicked Dick through a motorcycle (he was fine), sent each other flying with blows, all that jazz

Sending people the distance they did isn't really SSS level, I don't think any hit in that fight was on par with what Bucky can dish out. Batman got most of the good durability feats as well (mainly the Batmobile crush).

How do you quantify Dick taking the bike kick? It was kicked with enough force to break the bike but compare that to how people on Bucky's tier in the MCU have interacted with similar weighted objects (i.e Cap's bike throw, truck kick, Ultron throw) and I think it's pretty clear they could surpass that hit if they were in Batman's place.

Never said it was flat out better than anything they've done, but it's good enough to be comparable

Dick had to charge with enough force to flatten the Batmobile like that (after all, it's not like the Batmobile's just a regular car)

Kicking a regular person, let alone a fighter like Nightwing, clean through a motorcycle would definitely rank among impressive SSS feats

@wewlad80 said:

Yes because Dick is in big trouble here.

He Traded Blows with a Bloodlusted ironman and Tagged him Multiple Times, The same ironman that can Dodge Tank shells after they are fired Casually in an Older Suit.

No Caption Provided

No hes not, Bucky is actually Faster than him as he dodged Falcons guns when he shot at him aswell as smacking away gunfire with his arm. Also Bucky can move as fast as Cars.

So you don't see how comparing Bucky to Thanos is ridiculous?

Right, because it's not like basically every member of the Batfamily can bullet time..oh wait, they can

As one example

Dodging shots from a guy who can predict Nightiwng's every move

Or dodging gunfire despite being mentally attacked

No Caption Provided

Pff Show me Every member of the Bat Family Dodging Tank Shells

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#56 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

One-shotting a Kobra-enhanced soldier

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Just one more feat

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#57 Posted by AcroKat (7384 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: Because Nightwing is just too fast, agile, and skilled, plus he subconsciously uses his body language reading and can predict Bucky's movements before he makes them. Think about how Bucky did against Black Panther the first time and it'll be like that but much, much worse.

Not literally, but he did start talking, and for them to hear, plus he threw the stick at the witch lady first, and she was directly in front of the demon. It wasn't much of a surprise.

I caught that a little late so I'll repeat it, his legs and arms were free so with his flexibility and agility he could have kicked that high.

The hit with the chair? That was Dick, out of armor acting on instinct so it wasn't his best hit. Plus the demon is way too strong for a wooden chair to effect him anyway... if you're talking about the first kick, the Demon didn't no-sell it, no-selling is what Superman does with bullets.

He kicked Dick and he was launched through the bike from a distance.

First fight he and Midnighter were going blow for blow. The next fight, Midnighter had studied Grayson before fighting him, so he had the upper hand briefly, until Grayson changed styles then Dick had the upper hand. Neither of them were getting "wrecked" but they both had advantages.

Robin: Son of Batman 7.

No Caption Provided

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#58 Edited by AcroKat (7384 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: I thought Nightwing would b getting feats only from New 52, that Kobra soldier feat was in Rebirth.

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#59 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

@wewlad80 said:
@arcus1 said:
@buildhare said:
@arcus1 said:

Posted some scans above, it's from Nightwing (2011) issue 30. They basically wrecked the entire Batcave in their fight, crushed the Batmobile, Bruce kicked Dick through a motorcycle (he was fine), sent each other flying with blows, all that jazz

Sending people the distance they did isn't really SSS level, I don't think any hit in that fight was on par with what Bucky can dish out. Batman got most of the good durability feats as well (mainly the Batmobile crush).

How do you quantify Dick taking the bike kick? It was kicked with enough force to break the bike but compare that to how people on Bucky's tier in the MCU have interacted with similar weighted objects (i.e Cap's bike throw, truck kick, Ultron throw) and I think it's pretty clear they could surpass that hit if they were in Batman's place.

Never said it was flat out better than anything they've done, but it's good enough to be comparable

Dick had to charge with enough force to flatten the Batmobile like that (after all, it's not like the Batmobile's just a regular car)

Kicking a regular person, let alone a fighter like Nightwing, clean through a motorcycle would definitely rank among impressive SSS feats

@wewlad80 said:

Yes because Dick is in big trouble here.

He Traded Blows with a Bloodlusted ironman and Tagged him Multiple Times, The same ironman that can Dodge Tank shells after they are fired Casually in an Older Suit.

No Caption Provided

No hes not, Bucky is actually Faster than him as he dodged Falcons guns when he shot at him aswell as smacking away gunfire with his arm. Also Bucky can move as fast as Cars.

So you don't see how comparing Bucky to Thanos is ridiculous?

Right, because it's not like basically every member of the Batfamily can bullet time..oh wait, they can

As one example

Dodging shots from a guy who can predict Nightiwng's every move

Or dodging gunfire despite being mentally attacked

No Caption Provided

Pff Show me Every member of the Bat Family Dodging Tank Shells

So basically, what I'm getting is that all you've got is the Iron Man fight

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#60 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

@acrokat said:

@arcus1: I thought Nightwing would be restricted to New 52, that Kobra soldier feat was in Rebirth.

Rebirth is the same continuity as New 52, I've always seen it that feats from rebirth are fine for new 52

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#61 Posted by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@wewlad80 said:
@arcus1 said:
@buildhare said:
@arcus1 said:

Posted some scans above, it's from Nightwing (2011) issue 30. They basically wrecked the entire Batcave in their fight, crushed the Batmobile, Bruce kicked Dick through a motorcycle (he was fine), sent each other flying with blows, all that jazz

Sending people the distance they did isn't really SSS level, I don't think any hit in that fight was on par with what Bucky can dish out. Batman got most of the good durability feats as well (mainly the Batmobile crush).

How do you quantify Dick taking the bike kick? It was kicked with enough force to break the bike but compare that to how people on Bucky's tier in the MCU have interacted with similar weighted objects (i.e Cap's bike throw, truck kick, Ultron throw) and I think it's pretty clear they could surpass that hit if they were in Batman's place.

Never said it was flat out better than anything they've done, but it's good enough to be comparable

Dick had to charge with enough force to flatten the Batmobile like that (after all, it's not like the Batmobile's just a regular car)

Kicking a regular person, let alone a fighter like Nightwing, clean through a motorcycle would definitely rank among impressive SSS feats

@wewlad80 said:

Yes because Dick is in big trouble here.

He Traded Blows with a Bloodlusted ironman and Tagged him Multiple Times, The same ironman that can Dodge Tank shells after they are fired Casually in an Older Suit.

No Caption Provided

No hes not, Bucky is actually Faster than him as he dodged Falcons guns when he shot at him aswell as smacking away gunfire with his arm. Also Bucky can move as fast as Cars.

So you don't see how comparing Bucky to Thanos is ridiculous?

Right, because it's not like basically every member of the Batfamily can bullet time..oh wait, they can

As one example

Dodging shots from a guy who can predict Nightiwng's every move

Or dodging gunfire despite being mentally attacked

No Caption Provided

Pff Show me Every member of the Bat Family Dodging Tank Shells

So basically, what I'm getting is that all you've got is the Iron Man fight

And you dont have anything better that isnt PIS.

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#62 Posted by AcroKat (7384 posts) - - Show Bio
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#63 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

@wewlad80 said:
@arcus1 said:
@wewlad80 said:
@arcus1 said:
@buildhare said:
@arcus1 said:

Posted some scans above, it's from Nightwing (2011) issue 30. They basically wrecked the entire Batcave in their fight, crushed the Batmobile, Bruce kicked Dick through a motorcycle (he was fine), sent each other flying with blows, all that jazz

Sending people the distance they did isn't really SSS level, I don't think any hit in that fight was on par with what Bucky can dish out. Batman got most of the good durability feats as well (mainly the Batmobile crush).

How do you quantify Dick taking the bike kick? It was kicked with enough force to break the bike but compare that to how people on Bucky's tier in the MCU have interacted with similar weighted objects (i.e Cap's bike throw, truck kick, Ultron throw) and I think it's pretty clear they could surpass that hit if they were in Batman's place.

Never said it was flat out better than anything they've done, but it's good enough to be comparable

Dick had to charge with enough force to flatten the Batmobile like that (after all, it's not like the Batmobile's just a regular car)

Kicking a regular person, let alone a fighter like Nightwing, clean through a motorcycle would definitely rank among impressive SSS feats

@wewlad80 said:

Yes because Dick is in big trouble here.

He Traded Blows with a Bloodlusted ironman and Tagged him Multiple Times, The same ironman that can Dodge Tank shells after they are fired Casually in an Older Suit.

No Caption Provided

No hes not, Bucky is actually Faster than him as he dodged Falcons guns when he shot at him aswell as smacking away gunfire with his arm. Also Bucky can move as fast as Cars.

So you don't see how comparing Bucky to Thanos is ridiculous?

Right, because it's not like basically every member of the Batfamily can bullet time..oh wait, they can

As one example

Dodging shots from a guy who can predict Nightiwng's every move

Or dodging gunfire despite being mentally attacked

No Caption Provided

Pff Show me Every member of the Bat Family Dodging Tank Shells

So basically, what I'm getting is that all you've got is the Iron Man fight

And you dont have anything better that isnt PIS.

Ah, so you're just going to dismiss anything you don't like as PIS, and just scale off Iron Man as much as you can. Ok

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#64 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

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#65 Posted by buildhare (8649 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Never said it was flat out better than anything they've done, but it's good enough to be comparable

It isn't though. Compare kicking someone across a room into some electronics to Cap kicking someone a good 40 feet or Bucky's turbine kick (greater distance with actual height), it's good but it's not the same.

Dick had to charge with enough force to flatten the Batmobile like that (after all, it's not like the Batmobile's just a regular car)

All of Dick's force was going sideways into tackling Batman off the railing they were standing on, that doesn't have any bearing on them falling down onto the Batmobile. Maybe it's PIS that the Batmobile can be damaged by people falling on it but that's not Nightwings doing.

Kicking a regular person, let alone a fighter like Nightwing,

How does that have any bearing on the feat? Nightwing is the projectile in this scenario, him being a good fighter doesn't change the feat.

clean through a motorcycle would definitely rank among impressive SSS feats

It'd be good but it wouldn't be high end either. Kicking through a bike is fine but at the end of the day it is just a bike (solid steel beams/walls>>collection of parts held together by steel fixtures). I think Batman's feat with the marble walls in his maze fight with Cobb is better than that.

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#66 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Never said it was flat out better than anything they've done, but it's good enough to be comparable

It isn't though. Compare kicking someone across a room into some electronics to Cap kicking someone a good 40 feet or Bucky's turbine kick (greater distance with actual height), it's good but it's not the same.

Dick had to charge with enough force to flatten the Batmobile like that (after all, it's not like the Batmobile's just a regular car)

All of Dick's force was going sideways into tackling Batman off the railing they were standing on, that doesn't have any bearing on them falling down onto the Batmobile. Maybe it's PIS that the Batmobile can be damaged by people falling on it but that's not Nightwings doing.

Kicking a regular person, let alone a fighter like Nightwing,

How does that have any bearing on the feat? Nightwing is the projectile in this scenario, him being a good fighter doesn't change the feat.

clean through a motorcycle would definitely rank among impressive SSS feats

It'd be good but it wouldn't be high end either. Kicking through a bike is fine but at the end of the day it is just a bike (solid steel beams/walls>>collection of parts held together by steel fixtures). I think Batman's feat with the marble walls in his maze fight with Cobb is better than that.

Not like every blow they land is that powerful, or that those are the strongest blows Bruce/Dick have shown

Eh comic physics

Cause landing a solid blow on a fighter like Nightwing would be more difficult in the first place, and he'd be better able to brace against the blow

You'd think the bike would just be knocked over. The fact that he actually kicked Nightwing straight through the bike shows the force/speed was so great that he actually tore through the bike instead of just pushing it over

And even if we say Bucky's stronger than Dick, that doesn't account for Dick's rather significant skill advantage. Bucky's never beaten any notable who can also compete with his stats. Nightiwng has, a number of times

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#67 Posted by Lunacyde (28178 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing. Comics vs. live action doesn't translate well.

Moderator
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#68 Posted by buildhare (8649 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Not like every blow they land is that powerful, or that those are the strongest blows Bruce/Dick have shown

Well some of their blows look visually no different from what kick-ass can do, that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of power behind them.

Eh comic physics

Isn't that just PIS?

Cause landing a solid blow on a fighter like Nightwing would be more difficult in the first place, and he'd be better able to brace against the blow

We weren't debating about how hard he was to hit, we were talking about Batman's (and by extension Dicks) striking. Dick bracing may have allowed him to be less hurt by the hit but I doubt it affected the actual power with which Bruce sent him into the bike.

You'd think the bike would just be knocked over. The fact that he actually kicked Nightwing straight through the bike shows the force/speed was so great that he actually tore through the bike instead of just pushing it over

It still probably still should have toppled it even with Batman's striking, maybe it was rooted?

And even if we say Bucky's stronger than Dick, that doesn't account for Dick's rather significant skill advantage. Bucky's never beaten any notable who can also compete with his stats. Nightiwng has, a number of times

Does a character need wins to be impressive? Falcon hasn't beaten anyone and he'd stomp Kick-Ass and beat Arrow, despite both of those characters having many more "wins" than him. Contending with Cap, T'challa, Falcon etc. is a feat in itself.

Although the statement is incorrect anyway, as Bucky got a clean win over Steve when he was escaping the facility in Civil War.

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#69 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1776 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing.

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#70 Posted by King_Majestros (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

Can Bucky even take Dick?

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#71 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Not like every blow they land is that powerful, or that those are the strongest blows Bruce/Dick have shown

Well some of their blows look visually no different from what kick-ass can do, that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of power behind them.

Eh comic physics

Isn't that just PIS?

Cause landing a solid blow on a fighter like Nightwing would be more difficult in the first place, and he'd be better able to brace against the blow

We weren't debating about how hard he was to hit, we were talking about Batman's (and by extension Dicks) striking. Dick bracing may have allowed him to be less hurt by the hit but I doubt it affected the actual power with which Bruce sent him into the bike.

You'd think the bike would just be knocked over. The fact that he actually kicked Nightwing straight through the bike shows the force/speed was so great that he actually tore through the bike instead of just pushing it over

It still probably still should have toppled it even with Batman's striking, maybe it was rooted?

And even if we say Bucky's stronger than Dick, that doesn't account for Dick's rather significant skill advantage. Bucky's never beaten any notable who can also compete with his stats. Nightiwng has, a number of times

Does a character need wins to be impressive? Falcon hasn't beaten anyone and he'd stomp Kick-Ass and beat Arrow, despite both of those characters having many more "wins" than him. Contending with Cap, T'challa, Falcon etc. is a feat in itself.

Although the statement is incorrect anyway, as Bucky got a clean win over Steve when he was escaping the facility in Civil War.

Idk, comic physics are consistently altered enough that every instance of stuff that maybe doesn't make sense can't just be attributed to PIS. Considering how they were wrecking stuff all across the Batcave, I think wrecking the Batmobile was intended at least in part to convey their strength

Dick bracing/blocking the hit would have reduced how much he was sent flying by it. It's probably not a huge factor, but still something worth considering

I mean the pieces still would've fallen over, but the fact that he went straight through the bike shows the strength of the blow

Falcon's got advantages over someone like Arrow that Bucky doesn't have over Dick.

Steve was surprised by Bucky being brainwashed and was largely on the defensive for that fight, arguably holding back/not going all out. Winter Soldier showed that Steve was superior to Bucky, and the gap between them seemed even bigger by Civil War, hence why it's important, imo, to acknowledge the context of Bucky's win there.

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#72 Posted by deactivated-5bb6a6f86dc65 (4972 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing stomps.

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#73 Posted by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio
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#74 Posted by JohnPeterBanana (1149 posts) - - Show Bio

@wewlad80 said:

The Burden of proof is on you since you first Implied such.

Show me scans of Comic Bucky being Better than his MCU Counterpart. Comic Bucky doesnt even Have the Serum and has inferior stats from the start.

Usually when someone wants to argue something it's him who has to shows prove of it. But, anyway, Comic Bucky was able of defeating Comic CA (who is, without any question, stronger than MCU Cap), while MCU Bucky struggled against a taken-by-surprise Steve.

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#75 Posted by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

@wewlad80 said:

The Burden of proof is on you since you first Implied such.

Show me scans of Comic Bucky being Better than his MCU Counterpart. Comic Bucky doesnt even Have the Serum and has inferior stats from the start.

Usually when someone wants to argue something it's him who has to shows prove of it. But, anyway, Comic Bucky was able of defeating Comic CA (who is, without any question, stronger than MCU Cap), while MCU Bucky struggled against a taken-by-surprise Steve.

LUL ABC logic Right off the bat.

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#76 Posted by JohnPeterBanana (1149 posts) - - Show Bio

@wewlad80 said:

@johnpeterbanana said:

@wewlad80 said:

The Burden of proof is on you since you first Implied such.

Show me scans of Comic Bucky being Better than his MCU Counterpart. Comic Bucky doesnt even Have the Serum and has inferior stats from the start.

Usually when someone wants to argue something it's him who has to shows prove of it. But, anyway, Comic Bucky was able of defeating Comic CA (who is, without any question, stronger than MCU Cap), while MCU Bucky struggled against a taken-by-surprise Steve.

LUL ABC logic Right off the bat.

Wanna save time...

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#77 Posted by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

@wewlad80 said:

@johnpeterbanana said:

@wewlad80 said:

The Burden of proof is on you since you first Implied such.

Show me scans of Comic Bucky being Better than his MCU Counterpart. Comic Bucky doesnt even Have the Serum and has inferior stats from the start.

Usually when someone wants to argue something it's him who has to shows prove of it. But, anyway, Comic Bucky was able of defeating Comic CA (who is, without any question, stronger than MCU Cap), while MCU Bucky struggled against a taken-by-surprise Steve.

LUL ABC logic Right off the bat.

Wanna save time...

Are you by any chance the Fastest man alive ?

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#78 Posted by Bomberman1404 (301 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick stomps. Bucky won't even be able to touch him. If he can dodge hits from Midnighter and fight on equal grounds against Batman, then he's far superior to Bucky.

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#79 Posted by buildhare (8649 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Idk, comic physics are consistently altered enough that every instance of stuff that maybe doesn't make sense can't just be attributed to PIS. Considering how they were wrecking stuff all across the Batcave, I think wrecking the Batmobile was intended at least in part to convey their strength

I really don't. Ignoring the fact that either Dick or Bruce damaging the Batmobile should be inconsistent anyway (given most of their feats are breaking concrete or damaging steel and the Batmobile is miles above that) it's still very clearly not Dick creating that force. You can say it's comic physics but anywhere else it would be labelled PIS and discarded, it's not a showing for Dick.

Dick bracing/blocking the hit would have reduced how much he was sent flying by it. It's probably not a huge factor, but still something worth considering

Okay.

Falcon's got advantages over someone like Arrow that Bucky doesn't have over Dick.

Sure, but you were talking about Bucky not having wins as if that's a requirement to beat Dick, which it isn't.

Steve was surprised by Bucky being brainwashed and was largely on the defensive for that fight, arguably holding back/not going all out.

There's no real argument for Cap holding back;

  1. He knows Bucky can take it
  2. He knows Bucky isn't himself
  3. He knows that if he doesn't stop him someone is going to die (most likely)
  4. Bucky has just beaten the shit out of Falcon
  5. Steve outright runs to the fight

Being on the defensive doesn't indicate someone is holding back, in this scenario it just meant Steve couldn't catch a breather because Bucky was relentless. Which makes more sense when you consider the advantages Bucky has in a pure H2H fight against Steve (massively stronger in one limb).

Winter Soldier showed that Steve was superior to Bucky,

By a very slim amount, and that was due to things that weren't really a factor in this fight. Bucky has better pure unarmed H2H than Steve does, even though Cap is more skilled.

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#80 Posted by linsanel_Doctor (8630 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick gives him a beating

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#81 Edited by buildhare (8649 posts) - - Show Bio

@acrokat:

Because Nightwing is just too fast,

I haven't seen anything from Nightwing yet that would make him too fast at all, he may have an edge but he doesn't seem clearly better in raw speed by any means.

agile,

Fair enough, but this doesn't mean he can avoid being shot indefinitely, or that he can outmanoeuvre Bucky (Nightwing has to come close quarters eventually because of his gear), who while not a peer to Nightwing in this regard is still pretty damn agile.

and skilled,

Nightwing probably has this as well, but he's not spades more skilled than Bucky. Which is what he'd have to be to avoid getting tagged when his opponent is as good as he is in other areas.

plus he subconsciously uses his body language reading and can predict Bucky's movements before he makes them.

Has he ever done this in combat? In a way that actually helped? IIRC all he did with it was work out who Batman was.

Think about how Bucky did against Black Panther the first time and it'll be like that but much, much worse.

T'challa is a really bad match-up for Bucky as he has counters for basically every edge Bucky would normally have in a fight (bullet proof suit so most of his gear is useless, vibranium means that Bucky's strength and striking advantage means very little, he's more skilled and faster on top of that). Nightwing doesn't have any of that besides a skill (and potentially speed) advantage over him, Bucky still has his other physicals and gear to fall back on.

The first instance isn't really a fair example anyway, as;

  1. Bucky wasn't interested in fighting, only running
  2. Bucky had no gear

Put them on neutral ground with full gear for both and it would be a much fairer fight.

Not literally, but he did start talking, and for them to hear, plus he threw the stick at the witch lady first, and she was directly in front of the demon. It wasn't much of a surprise.

He attacked from the shadows after speaking half of a sentence, it's a surprise attack.

I caught that a little late so I'll repeat it, his legs and arms were free so with his flexibility and agility he could have kicked that high.

Didn't catch it the first time, looking at it more closely I still disagree;

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His upper legs are being held, which is the important part. There's no way he could launch something close to his best kick while his upper legs are immobilised.

I'll concede the art makes it look like it was a kick as opposed to a shock from his sticks, but that would just mean it's PIS that he managed to hurt it enough to let go of him (based on everything else we know about this particular demon).

The hit with the chair? That was Dick, out of armor acting on instinct so it wasn't his best hit. Plus the demon is way too strong for a wooden chair to effect him anyway... if you're talking about the first kick, the Demon didn't no-sell it, no-selling is what Superman does with bullets.

Dicks armour is just armour though, it doesn't enhance his striking by a significant margin. If someone is unphased by his hits outside of his suit they're not going to be greatly hurt when he puts it on.

I'm talking about the first hit not the kick. With regards to acting on reflex, he certainly did hit it hard;

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At least a little effort into it.

Maybe not as hard as he could have hit had he prepared for the strike, but definitely not weaker than his standard blows in a fight.

First fight he and Midnighter were going blow for blow. The next fight, Midnighter had studied Grayson before fighting him, so he had the upper hand briefly, until Grayson changed styles then Dick had the upper hand. Neither of them were getting "wrecked" but they both had advantages.

Is N52 Midnighter really nerfed or was this PIS?

Robin: Son of Batman 7.

Good feat, do Talon's have to breath?

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#82 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4756 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick

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#83 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing in a good fight. His skill edge should be a solid one. Buck would make him work for it at least a little though

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#84 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3716 posts) - - Show Bio

Winter Soldier wins the majority

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#85 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare:

Because Bucky and Dick are both h2h fighters mainly, someone like Falcon's got a bunch of tech to give him wins over the likes of Arrow

Except Bucky being superior to Cap is inconsistent with all their other showings, including how he beat him in Winter Soldier (without the shield). Sure, he's not leagues better than Bucky or anything, they're close enough that Bucky being in brainwashed assassin mode while Cap wasn't looking for a fight was enough to give Bucky an edge. But put both of them at their best, and Cap wins

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#86 Posted by AcroKat (7384 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare:

I haven't seen anything from Nightwing yet that would make him too fast at all, he may have an edge but he doesn't seem clearly better in raw speed by any means.

Fair enough, but this doesn't mean he can avoid being shot indefinitely, or that he can outmanoeuvre Bucky (Nightwing has to come close quarters eventually because of his gear), who while not a peer to Nightwing in this regard is still pretty damn agile.

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Here (right to left) Nightwing gives his grappling hook to Prankster to escape while he deals with the police. Nightwing sets the line up for him and everything, and Prankster gets to the top as Nightwing is still dealing with the police squad. When Prankster gets to the rooftop Nightwing had already casually beat him there without his grappling hook.

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Combat speed, he outpaces a telepath, Grifter, who was reading his mind to predict his moves and using guns. Grifter is far more accurate, skilled, and faster than Bucky, and he doesn't hit Grayson once the entire fight, even with guns, Grifter was basically blitzed. He does a good job evading the super fast atlantean Tempest. He was eventually caught, and Garth was struggling being out of water, but he was only trying to reason with him. He also dodged every hit from an enhanced Joker and almost took him down (He and everyone else were incapacitated by a sonic device the next page), this Joker was able to easily dance around Batman, who apparently only landed hits because Joker was showing off his new healing factor.

There's no way to compare them in speed. Bucky runs faster sure but Nightwing fights, reacts, and can overall move much faster. Like here

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Nightwing probably has this as well, but he's not spades more skilled than Bucky. Which is what he'd have to be to avoid getting tagged when his opponent is as good as he is in other areas.

He really is. Everyone Bucky fought outskilled him. Captain America (twice), Black Widow (twice), Sharon Carter, Black Panther... Tony Stark was able to keep up with him with a tiny piece of his armor. Meanwhile Nightwing is skilled enough to take down David Cain (while fighting off his attack drones I think), keep up with Midnighter and earn his respect, take on Lady Shiva despite still having broken ribs, and defeat Batman in a long, brutal fight. This isn't comparable.

Has he ever done this in combat? In a way that actually helped? IIRC all he did with it was work out who Batman was.

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And I only said to think about his first fight with Black Panther to use as a visual representation as how badly this fight would go for him. Except worse.

I'll get to the other stuff later.

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#87 Posted by AcroKat (7384 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: The demon only had 3 fingers. You see how He grabbed him, and he kicked with his left side. The side that had a ton of room to move. And Nightwing hits hard. One kick he destroyed all the tendons in a Talon's knee, one kick he kicked apart a giant bronze statue in Nightwing 18. Hurt his ankle doing that one though.

It probably doesn't enhance his striking but again, he hit him with a wooden chair. Something I could break apart if I tried. Even if Captian America did it, I don't think it would have done better simply because of how fragile the weapon used is.

I think his battle computer was blocked but that's it. He was still super fast, strong, and skilled. I don't see why it's such a problem, Grayson fought him good and wasn't letting himself get stomped, but all he did was keep up. He wasn't winning that one. And Midnighter wasn't completely serious at first. The second fight, had a lot of context to it, Grayson only won due to a plot weapon having a plot safe-word pretty much. Still, in the actual fight, all he did was keep up.

I am not actually sure. This might be relevant though.

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This was William Cobb, one of the better Talons, but still, might apply since this is durability and not skill.

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#88 Posted by nfactor1995 (12873 posts) - - Show Bio

What advantages does Nightwing have in this fight besides skill that would allow him to stomp?

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#89 Edited by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

What advantages does Nightwing have in this fight besides skill that would allow him to stomp?

He's more agile and arguably faster. I don't think he's stomping persay, but I think he has everything he needs to win. Bucky might have an edge in brute strength, but I don't see that being significant enough to make up for everything Nightwing's got going for him

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#90 Posted by lubub55 (12896 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Why do you think Nightwing's faster?

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#91 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:

@arcus1: Why do you think Nightwing's faster?

He's got bullet dodging/timing feats as good as Bucky's, plus overall better agility and combat speed

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As a couple examples, could get more. In terms of pure reaction speed they're probably not far off, but Dick's an acrobat who uses his speed more in fights

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#92 Posted by blackpantherisb (7107 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing for a solid majority.

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#93 Posted by Bomberman1404 (301 posts) - - Show Bio
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#94 Posted by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, Bucky still wins easily.

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#95 Edited by Black_Arrow (10258 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok Nightwing just got an amazing strength feat:

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While having a broken ankle.

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One more image to show how big it is.

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#96 Posted by modernww2fare (7045 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde said:

Nightwing. Comics vs. live action doesn't translate well.

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#98 Posted by Arcus1 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio
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#99 Edited by BruceRogers (17297 posts) - - Show Bio
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#100 Posted by Black_Arrow (10258 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_arrow: Have they mentioned how heavy that thing is?

No, It was never mentioned, it's part of an Egyptian statue and those were made out of stone, so It shouldn't be that hard for someone to calculate that. Nightwing was holding it for quite some time