Nigh-Omnipotent tourney - Cruelestashley vs CaptainGanon - Cruelestashley wins!

''Well, Lucifer really isn't. He is a being of his own, only created by God. The Living Tribunal is a vessel for TOAA to enact judgment. If I remember correctly, Lucifer has revolted against God.

''Just like the Living Tribunal--which was my point. Lucifer was God's tool, in much the same way the LT is TOAA's. Lucifer's rebellion, as well as his role in Hell were predetermined by God.

God's plan contains everything that happens/happened/will happen. Everything is pre-determined. And Lucifer dissobeying him is pre-determined. But who can tell if God wanted Lucifer to dissobey him? Who knows if God created Lucifer in a way that he would walk a path of his own, but a path God already knew and had included in his radiance, or that he made him exactly for the reason that Lucifer should dissobey him/challenge him, in a path that God knew and adapted his divine plan for? Radiance of God would make him able to do both. Who's to tell if Lucifer is the way he should be, or the way he should behave? God's plan includes all. But only God knows all. Not Lucifer neither anyone else.

Your scans also prove my point. Lucifer (whether it was part of God's plan or not) dissobeys God. The Living Tribunal never leaves his role as Judge of the Multiverse because he is bored, like Lucifer. And who's to say that just because Lucifer is part of God's plan, he has God on his side?

''Yes, the combined forces of multiple Beyonders killed him. A single Beyonder wouldn't be enough, of course.

''Barring that you said entities, I ask you to evidence this claim.

Entity/being=something/someone that exists/is. Aren't the Beyonders entities?

Now for the claim about a single Beyonder not being enough: The battle ''takes place in all realities'', which means in all universes/dimensions of the Marvel-verse and all their timelines as well. That's infinite locations in space-time. In the scan, there are three bubbles, each containing a part of the LT's body and one Beyonder. In my point of view, that suggests that the Living Tribunal (having combined all his manifestation bodies in one) is one body in all realities at once, since he is not bound to space or time. The Beyonders on the other hand, are bound to their own timeline. That would suggest that since their battle took place ''in all realities'', it had at least one Beyonder for every reality.

I could be wrong, but still, three beings with Cosmic Cubes (that enhance their reality-warping abilities) and capable to destroy the Celestials, Eternity, Infinity, Lord Chaos and Matser Order, are nigh-omnipotents at their worst. Fighting the Ivory Kings is not an embarassing way to go down.

''Yes, Adam Warlock, someone who is inferior to the Living Tribunal in all ways imaginable, said these things, after he found himself with incredible power.

''And in what ways is Adam Warlock as the Living Tribunal inferior, when the context implies otherwise.

Do you quote that? Are you saying that the Living Tribunal (Adam Warlock) is more powerful than the Living Tribunal (original)? I'm using composite Living Tribunal, so that's a plus for me.

And I never said Adam as LT is inferior. I meant Adam as Adam Warlock is inferior to LT, which I believe makes sense.

''And that was AFTER the Beyonders killed the Living Tribunal. Wonder if he would be more capable than the original...

''Adam seems confident that he's more powerful than his predecessor, and the context implies as much.

Again, I never said that LT (original) is more powerful, rather that the two are equal and that perhaps Adam 9LT) wouldn't have acted differently. But if you want to say that Adam (LT) is more powerful than the original LT, again, since I'm using composite, it makes no difference.

''Whoa! Wait! It's a What If story, which means that it's not canon.

''It shows that that if Krovac had used the Avengers as his pawns, and things ended up going down that road, that's what would have happened.

No, it shows a very weak Tribunal, that couldn't even help the Abstracts, or give judgment, and then he left like a coward. The actual Tribunal wouldn't have to leave, as he has manifestation bodies in all realities. This weak Tribunal clearly doesn't, as he implies that he is in a hurry to go (himself) in the next reality and judge.

''Strange has nothing to put him on Lucifer's level.

Sure, but he was a beast! Even without his magic, he was still awesome!

''and Beyonder, two very powerful nigh-omnipotent beings beaten by the Living Tribunal isn't a big feat?

''Frankly, no, not considering the context of this battle. Fact is, neither Protege nor the Beyonder had the power combined to defeat Infinity--and you've provided no evidence thus far that Infinity is a match for Lucifer.

Beyonder was an omnipotent being and could do things to Lucifer's magnitude. Also, what if their powers were decreased in the Court, since it's like a reality of itself?

''if he doesn't have the proper showing to contend, then isn't going to have what it takes. TOAA also doesn't have incredible showings (or appearances, for the matter). Does that mean he also doesn't have what it takes? What about the Great Evil Beast? It's not just about feats, but status/lore as well.

''So replacing the main universe with another isn't in fact the same as ''deciding which is canon''? Either way, it has power over all existance, as long as there is an imbalance.

''No--it seems like a loaded way of wording things. So, because Michael can destroy all of existence, he decides what's canon in the metaphysical realm of the comics? I think not.

Your example wasn't really good. I never said that LT would stop all of existance. And if Michael did (which is impossible), he wouldn't decide what is canon, but rather doom everything as non-canon, as nothing would exist (at least, at the time he would destroy all).

The LT decided if the 616 (main universe) should be replaced by another (Ultimate). If the 616 universe was replaced, then Ultimate-universe would be the main Marvel universe and the main canon as well.

''Thanos's anger only served for him do away with whoever decided to threaten him--unless you can provide evidence his rage augmented his power.

Okay, maybe I was wrong, but he at least got a bit more motivated if not stronger, as he obviously started kicking more ass very quickly when he sees the Marvel Heroes attacking him. At the end of the battle, he also says that not even this victory doesn't satisfy his thirst and rage.

''There is nothing to suggest there was a Tribunal left to do battle with Thanos.

The Living Tribunal doesn't just get sucked in the Heart. And since there was nothing to suggest that LT is dead, I don't think speculating about it or not will help. But there is evidence. The status of the LT is only known as ''dead'' once. When it dies from the Beyonders.

''Incorrect: the Living Tribunal is one, but exists in all realities. If the entire Beyonder race attacked him throught all realities, how is it pointless?

''If he exists in all realities, then he's simultaneously one as well as more than one--it's just a matter of perspective. Is the Tribunal one bodied individual in multiple realities? Or is he multiple bodies of the same, conjoined? Furthermore, there is no evidence of more than three Beyonders--especially when the emphasis has consistently been on three--the Ivory Kings.

I explained it more above, but I'll do it again. I believe the scan shows three parts of the LT and three Beyonders. That probably means that they attacked different parts of the LT from different realities (one fights an arm, the other fights anotyher arm, etc.). Since the Living Tribunal is beyond space and time, yet he died, it must only mean that all his manifestation bodies died as well. Since the Beyonders are bound to their timeline, that must mean that all-timeline Beyonders attacked the LT at the same time. That's more than 3 Beyonders.

''Korvac didn't even defeat the Living Tribunal in combat. The Living Tribunal just left!

''He resisted his judgement and forced him to flee--for his power was greater. It's not the same as say, how the Beyonders did it, but if his power did nothing, and he was so afraid he warned the other abstracts and left, then I'd say that definitely demonstrates my point: stronger individuals exist.

Keep these two quotes in mind for later.

''Gabriel stabbed him with a divine weapon from the Silver City

It would make no difference if it was Sora's wooden sword. I showed evidence that not only Lucifer, the second only to God, was outskilled in fair 1v1 combat, but he was also wounded. Of course, it would take more than a plain sword to pierce the substance of his skin, but since he is ''number two'', shouldn't he be able to handle Gabriel?

''Gabriel is nowhere near Lucifer in power

Makes sense, since Gabriel isn't Lucifer and Lucifer is the 2nd strongest being in DC, 1st being the Pressence. That doesn't change the fact that Lucifer was overpower by Gabriel's swordsmanship.

And about Lucifer being weak, if Michael is able to destroy Lucifer's host, why can't Lucifer do the same? And we can't know if he was fighting Michael, but that is against Lucifer, as we only see Gabriel, someone inferior in power, overwhelm Lucifer. And wouldn't Gabriel be weakened as well, if Lucifer was? Didn't BOTH of them fight?

Your scans only prove that Lucifer is adaptable and learned his lesson the first time (also, is his scar the one Mazikeen did to him?).

''And we know Gabriel was at full power, as he tanked the fall from Heaven

Why would Gabriel be at full power, just because he fell from Heaven? And wouldn't his fall decrease his power? And even if it doesn't decrease his power, doesn't that mean that a fall from Heaven isn't a big feat?

''Above, a lesser demon was placed in the Void, as Lucifer had predicted the Host's movements--with the bulk of them being decimated by said demon.

For all I know, the demon could have been there randomly, or Lucifer could have made another deal with God, before everything went down.

''when God left creation, the Host of Heaven waned in power and was taken down by Sandalphon and Lilith's armies

So when the source of power for divine beings left, they lost part of their power, and the ones that got their power from Hell (which obviously didn't remove itself), defeated the former. Makes sense.

''When you factor that even a weakened Lucifer is above these guys

I thought a weakened Lucifer wasn't fighting this fight. I thought it was Lilith and Sandalphon's armies.

''Lucifer is just as willful, as powerful is his brother, Michael.

''Er, no--Lucifer bleeds will, Michael bleeds power. Lucifer has Morningstar powers, whereas Michael has Demiurgic powers--they serve separate functions in God's framework. Lucifer can manipulate all matter, just not create it as Michael can, for Michael's is the power of God. On the flipside, Michael lacks the ability to manipulate and form said creative power into anything he wishes.

Yes, but they cannot exist without one another. If Michael dies, everything dies. If Lucifer dies...well, everything dies?

I know about the difference in their powers, and their work in God's plan (obviously), but that doesn't prove me wrong. And his Morningstar powers aren't omnipotent outside creation (which is his and his brother's realm).

''Even when all was created, it was Michael that created everything, and Lucifer gave shape to the creations.

''He mainly lit the stars, hence the title of "Lightbringer". His duties were fairly limited, I'd say, but still important nonetheless. I should also mention that, as Lucifer lit every star in creation, he retains the power of each star--stars that dim whenever he calls upon them.

This power is not impressive, either.

''Also, other gods can harm him, and he is omnipotent only inside his creation.

''I think omnipotence is a stretch, even in his creation, as he was harmed in his own creation; although it required a ton of prepwork and failed in the end. I might also mention that no god has harmed a full power Lucifer.

He also has almost died, but quite cleverly and randomly didn't. Full-power or not, someone who is only second toGod, should know how to NOT get stuck in such situations.

''Willpower doesn't win battles, and guts/willpower will only get him so far, if he faces the Living Tribunal.

''Except it does. Lucifer was able to harm the nigh-omnipotent Titans through sheer willpower--to which they responded with the willpower of God, taking him down. That however, was another example of failure, as Lucifer's prep killed him.

The nigh-omnipotent Titans? I hope you don't mean the group in which the guy who Wonder Woman, Deathstroke and Superman wasted in Deathstroke: God Killer, belongs.

''Lucifer by sheer willpower overpowers the velleity, a powerful entity from the First World.

That's no feat, as the Velleity has nothing to even remotely hurt the LT.

''Nirvana, was extinguished as Lucifer snuffed out every human soul in the vicinity, killing its fuel source

So Lucifer is able to take mortal souls. Makes sense, but again, no big feat. When ''nigh-omnipotent'' beings have stupid weaknesses, it only makes sense they will go so far...

''Willpower is just another way of warping reality to his will

Again, he was dealing with mortals (and the weakest kind of mortals-humans!). These are not feats. Plus the LT is all-knowing, as it wouldn't be able to dispense judgment, if not.

You bring up the fact that Lucifer was weakened when he was beaten. He was de-powered and his enemies had an advantage.

Which brings me back to this:

''Korvac didn't even defeat the Living Tribunal in combat. The Living Tribunal just left!

''He resisted his judgement and forced him to flee--for his power was greater. It's not the same as say, how the Beyonders did it, but if his power did nothing, and he was so afraid he warned the other abstracts and left, then I'd say that definitely demonstrates my point: stronger individuals exist.

Isn't this proof that the LT can also be de-powered and weakened? That maybe the LT was depowered for the sake of the story, and that a fully powered LT would be more than enough to handle everyone, since he was able to handle the Beyonder?

And since you brought up that the Beyonder isn't on Lucifer's level:

The Beyonder, a being less powerful than the Ivory Kings (keep that in mind), came from the Beyonder Realm (home to all Beyonders), into the Marvel-verse. There, he was like a god. The only person who could even keep up with him was Molecule-Man, but even he wasn't enough to defeat the Beyonder. He made Earth's mightiest heroes and villains ''dance'' for him in Battleworld, and could tank this: http://i.imgur.com/xQ3DNc4.jpg

And all that, while not even in his own Realm! At the same time, we see Lucifer getting his ass kicked by lower angels, inside creation.

I believe that Lucifer's feats of will, are a little low, to be considered sufficient. Being able to manipulate/read humans is no big deal. The enemies Lucifer has fought aren't really impressive, either. A lower-level angel beat him in combat during a war and he was saved by God in the last second. Another angel beat him in combat and the reason why he didn't die was because he had a backup plan. All in all, Lucifer only has the title ''second to God'', but in reality, a lot more can hurt him. He was also severly weakened in multiple occasions. The reason he never died, is because it wasn't part of God's plan. If it wasn't for daddy, who knows how things might had ended up?

The Living Tribunal on the other hand, has dealt with beings such as Beyonder and Doctor Strange (both of which used to be some of the strongest in the Marvel-verse). He was beaten twice, once by a top-tier being in the Marvel-verse, with the power of an artifact that could destroy the entire Marvel-verse, and once more, by a nigh-omnipotent race with nigh-omnipotent devices (Cosmic Cubes) from outside the Marvel-verse. I don't think a being as powerful as the Living Tribunal could not be defeated by Lucifer.

DC has also confirmed this here, if the above scan wasn't proof enough. His characterization in Lucifer is that of a haughty, self-entitled zealot--taking place before the rebellion--before and after the Silver City's construction. Hellblazer takes place in the 20th century mainly, Gabriel's characterization similar (written over a decade prior), his fall from grace a pathetic one--swept away in the passion of the female form, a lust that cost him his heart. In volume two of Lucifer, he returns as comic relief, a hapless, lovable loser. So while the plots are part of the same continuity, I would reason that Hellblazer contradicts The Sandman continuity quite a bit, even more so than Lucifer does. I wrote a blog about this that you can read here. Finally, as far as power levels go, from what I recall, Ellie ripped out his heart, and when he returned to God impure, he was cast from Heaven, losing all his powers, and eventually his wings (John cut them off). From there, he's coerced into doing John's dirty work. Eventually his heart is crushed by Hellblazer's Satan, thereafter condemned to damnation and agony eternal. I spent the past hour or so looking through The Sandman for a mention of his heart, but I suppose I must have been thinking of Lucifer Vol. 2, unless there was an offhand comment I missed.

I think, in light of my recent blog, Constantine says everything I criticized the angels of in volume two:

Anyway, back to finishing up my last post.

But who can tell if God wanted Lucifer to dissobey him? Who knows if God created Lucifer in a way that he would walk a path of his own, but a path God already knew and had included in his radiance, or that he made him exactly for the reason that Lucifer should dissobey him/challenge him, in a path that God knew and adapted his divine plan for? Radiance of God would make him able to do both. Who's to tell if Lucifer is the way he should be, or the way he should behave? God's plan includes all. But only God knows all. Not Lucifer neither anyone else.

Why would God include it in his plan if he did not want it? In one of the previous scans I showed, from when Lucifer and Michael emerged in the mind of God--God himself expressed distaste with Michael for not branching off as Lucifer did. Let's bring it up once more:

Now let's look at the greater, surrounding context:

God created everything with a purpose, with peers and mirrors for the sake of his children (Lucifer and Michael).

Delving back to Murder Mysteries, let's look at the a key scan I posted:

Here it is revealed that it was preordained that Lucifer would be shown the injustice of God, so that he would brood, think critically--rebel against his maker and serve a necessary function in Hell, as I previously evidenced. Once more however, I will bring these scans up:

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God deceived Lucifer into playing the part he was predetermined to play. The entire of point of Lucifer escaping into the Void was to escape Destiny, a concept he reviled and viewed as a side-effect to his father's approach to creation:

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God intended all of this, and it's shown by Destiny that Lucifer had failed to escape predetermination at that point in time.

So, with all that in mind, how are God's intentions on this particular matter not clear? We have statements directly from him (above) that say he intended for Lucifer to become corrupted, to play the function he predetermined for him.

Your scans also prove my point. Lucifer (whether it was part of God's plan or not) dissobeys God. The Living Tribunal never leaves his role as Judge of the Multiverse because he is bored, like Lucifer. And who's to say that just because Lucifer is part of God's plan, he has God on his side?

Lucifer disobeyed God because God predetermined it. I'm not seeing how this changes anything. In the mutual universe where these two meet, why would the influence of either omnipotent entity play a role? There's nothing to suggest they would. My pointing out Lucifer is a "tool of God" was only to show that the concept is irrelevant, because this isn't a fight between Yahweh and TOAA, but the Tribunal and Lucifer, both unassisted by their makers, otherwise we would have to concede defeat, as omnipotent characters are banned from this tournament. I would hope you're not suggesting the Tribunal is omnipotent because he was created by TOAA, as you would be forced to concede outright. I'd also like to point out how utterly irrelevant pointing out what may as well be a restriction on your combatant is--so what if he's the judge of anything? It needs proven that the Tribunal's judgement, his power, can put Lucifer down, but as of yet, nothing you've presented suggests that as the case.

Also, when the Tribunal fought Nebulos, it took him sometime to overpower his foe, meaning his power is not even remotely close to TOAA, and is in fact shown as limited as a result. The fact he was also impeded in the slightest by Strange, shows just how slow and weak he is compared to the son of the morning.

Entity/being=something/someone that exists/is. Aren't the Beyonders entities?

This is a pointless recourse into semantics--it changes nothing, but I'll answer: entities is plural. The Beyonders as in, more than one, are entities.

Now for the claim about a single Beyonder not being enough: The battle ''takes place in all realities'', which means in all universes/dimensions of the Marvel-verse and all their timelines as well. That's infinite locations in space-time. In the scan, there are three bubbles, each containing a part of the LT's body and one Beyonder. In my point of view, that suggests that the Living Tribunal (having combined all his manifestation bodies in one) is one body in all realities at once, since he is not bound to space or time. The Beyonders on the other hand, are bound to their own timeline. That would suggest that since their battle took place ''in all realities'', it had at least one Beyonder for every reality.

The battle taking place in all realities could mean a multitude of different things. How would you make the distinction from that and the Beyonders being powerful enough to attack him from all facets of his being, thus "taking place in all realities" as a result? How do you know that the Beyonder's power is simply not so powerful that it affects the Tribunal, which in turn affects him in his entirety, and thus all realities being merely a side-effect? Furthermore, how do you know the Ivory Kings in particular are bound by their own timeline? Would not the fact only three have been shown to exist and their transitory nature suggest that they too transcend the continuum as the Tribunal does?

Continuing on from that--Tony Stark found part of the Tribunal's body on the Moon in New Avengers #8, yet it's not until issue #30 that we learn the Ivory Kings killed the Tribunal just before Hank Pym returned from the multiverse in issue #28. So how did Tony witness the Tribunal's body on the Moon, before it had happened? Well, this suggests that time, in such a plane, does not function in the same way as it does in 616. As such, why would the Ivory Kings be an exception to some form of linear time graphing, when nothing about the battle implies that?

Beyond this, even if I conceded this point (and I do not), even if the Tribunal were the most powerful in his respected universe, it would not by some haphazard ABC logic make him more powerful than Lucifer.

I could be wrong, but still, three beings with Cosmic Cubes (that enhance their reality-warping abilities) and capable to destroy the Celestials, Eternity, Infinity, Lord Chaos and Matser Order, are nigh-omnipotents at their worst. Fighting the Ivory Kings is not an embarassing way to go down.

No, it certainly is not an embarrassing way to go down--as currently, they are perhaps the strongest in Marvel. My point with this, now, is to show that the Tribunal's power is limited, and thus not the power of God (TOAA)--certainly making him beatable. I would also contest your claim that these beings are "nigh-omnipotents" as they are by means omnipotent, and nigh-omnipotent, semantics aside, is the highest tier before omnipotent there is.

Do you quote that? Are you saying that the Living Tribunal (Adam Warlock) is more powerful than the Living Tribunal (original)? I'm using composite Living Tribunal, so that's a plus for me.

I'll clarify my position on this: the previous Living Tribunal was implied as lesser by Warlock's own admission. All we have is the implication that he is stronger--but even so, by how much? We cannot know until we see him in action, assuming his word as true.

Personally, I would guess him stronger by virtue of the narrative, but still beneath the Ivory Kings, for if he truly had that much surplus of power, he would have already judged them for their crimes.

Again, I never said that LT (original) is more powerful, rather that the two are equal and that perhaps Adam 9LT) wouldn't have acted differently. But if you want to say that Adam (LT) is more powerful than the original LT, again, since I'm using composite, it makes no difference.

They could be equal, sure, we cannot know for sure either way--but we've been steered in the direction that he is by an unknown amount.

No, it shows a very weak Tribunal, that couldn't even help the Abstracts, or give judgment, and then he left like a coward. The actual Tribunal wouldn't have to leave, as he has manifetsation bodies 9something this weak Tribunal clearly doesn't, as he implies that he is in a hurry to go (himself) in the next imbalance and judge.

If the Tribunal is weak--he is weak, by sheer virtue of Korvac's own power. The story does not demonstrate that, in the scenario, the Tribunal is any lesser than he normally is, as the focus is on Korvac using the Avengers as his pawns, taking place during Avengers #177, with the change in reality being that Carina did not hesitate to give Korvac the power to kill the Avengers--whom he resurrects as pawns (hence the title). Everything in this scenario played out from there, as it would if it actually happened, meaning that if Carina really did not hesitate, then this is exactly what would have happened. Furthermore--these what if stories all take place in their own universes, and given the infinitude of different realities, how is this any less a reality than say, when Lex Luthor killed Superman in space? The story was "imaginary", but still took place on one of the infinite alternative Earths.

I never said he had, but once upon a time (pre-retcon version) he was a beast.

Then what is the purpose in bringing him up? He's a nonfactor in the presence of Lucifer.

Doctor Strange himself said that the LT is second only to TOAA.

He may have said that, but was he, at that point in time, even aware of the Ivory Kings? Or of the potential power Korvac could embody? Or rather, was it a statement about the current hierarchy at that point in time? I would assume the latter third as the most plausible.

Your example wasn't really good. I never said that LT would stop all of existance. And if Michael did (which is impossible), he wouldn't decide what is canon, but rather doom everything as non-canon, as nothing would exist (at least, at the time he would destroy all).

I wasn't saying that the Tribunal would stop all of existence, just that altering reality does not constitute what is "canon" in the overall metaphysical sense of the comic.

I would also like to add that isn't impossible, as it's the nature of the Demiurgic power--I posted this earlier, but:

The LT decided if the 616 9main universe) should be replaced by another (Ultimate). If the 616 universe was replaced, then Ultimate-universe would be the main Marvel universe and the main canon as well.

I find this a misappropriation of what the word canon means--because by this definition, any sort of large scale reality warping is "changing the canon". Even if the Tribunal wiped out 616, it would be up to the writers what to do with the vestiges and so forth--what would remain canon/non-canon.

Okay, maybe I was wrong, but he at least got a bit more motivated if not stronger, as he obviously started kicking more ass very quickly when he sees the Marvel Heroes attacking him. At the end of the battle, he also says that not even this victory doesn't take away his feelings.

Motivated, yes, that is an appropriate word--the angrier Thanos got, the more motivated he became to utilize the power at his disposal.

The Living Tribunal doesn't just get sucked in the Heart. And since there was nothing to suggest that LT is dead, I don't think speculating about it or not will help. But there is evidence. The status of the LT is only known as ''dead'' once. When it dies from the Beyonders.

Well, we see the Tribunal alongside Eternity and Infinity getting sucked in--I see no reason not to assume he was finished, especially since another Tribunal did not oppose Thanos afterward. If we're shown an entity essentially dying, then how exactly is there any implication of him still being alive when after the death we're shown there is nothing?

It would make no difference if it was Sora's wooden sword.

Lucifer's been stabbed and jabbed while weakened by plenty of mystical weapons, yet were never able to truly stagger him, despite being weakened:

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The context is present under the "Durability" section of my opener, where Noema talks of Lucifer weakening due to God's abdication of creation.

I showed evidence that not only Lucifer, the second only to God, was outskilled in fair 1v1 combat, but he was also wounded. Of course, it would take more tha n a plain sword to pierce the substance of his skin, but since he is ''number two'', shouldn't he be able to handle Gabriel?

Hold the phone--like I said, Lucifer can only sustain injury from physical attacks when he's weakened. This is why the Lilim were so surprised that he bled at all, for Lucifer does not normally bleed:

Generally speaking, even when he is weakened, Lucifer does not need organs to function, and blood is merely a sign to show that is he weakening, not that it in and of itself has much significance:

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In the above fight, Lucifer functions perfectly fine without a heart, in one of his most vulnerable and weakened states.

Though this is all besides the point--a weakened Lucifer is not relevant--as per the rules of the tournament--he is at full power.

shouldn't he be able to handle Gabriel?

I parrot the point I made earlier: there is no way of knowing how Lucifer became as injured as he did by that point. At every twist and turn in the series, we only ever see him truly weakened by a plot device (e.g. Izanami's prepwork, God leaving creation, etc.), thus this appears the only instance where one is not present, but then, there is also no context presence. All we can ascertain is--Gabriel stabbed Lucifer, yet, Lucifer remained and stood his ground. But, what about after?

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Lucifer, despite his wounds, stood and communicated fine. What would have happened between the two had the battle raged on? Who's to say? At full power, however, Lucifer is higher on the pecking order, and would tear his pathetic brother to shreds, both by statements and feats.

As such--even moments after shedding blood and taking injury from Michael, again, despite being weakened, he was able to absorb Michael's most powerful attack at Yggdrasil:

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So, even if Lucifer is severely weakened (in this case from God's abdication and the journey to the World Tree), and further takes a beating from an extremely powerful entity, essentially his antithetical equal, only to tank the most powerful explosion in the DCU ever, then what we can discern is that: the level of Lucifer's sustained weakness/injuries is what's of importance. At this point in the series, Lucifer is at one of his lowest points. If I had to list Lucifer's nerfs, starting with the biggest:

• When Izanami's prepwork caused Lucifer's powers to backfire on himself, he lost everything, becoming extraordinarily weak--this is the Lucifer shown above in issue #32 without a heart.
• The point at which the Lilim notice Lucifer can bleed, per Fenris's actions--this is a continuation from the above events in #57, as the longer time persisted, the weaker he became due to God's absence--notwithstanding the portion of power he hid away to annihilate Fenris.
• The events just prior to above, when Lucifer and co. arrive in Yggdrasil weakened from the journey--and Lucifer, as I've stated several times now, initially lessened due to God's abdication.
• At the end of the series, as Lucifer transfers his Morningstar Powers to Mazikeen, which left him defenseless in the Void against Gabriel.

Makes sense, since Gabriel isn't Lucifer and Lucifer is the 2nd strongest being in DC, 1st being the Pressence.

Elaine Belloc becomes omnipotent in issue #69--so that would make Lucifer third.

That doesn't change the fact that Lucifer was overpower by Gabriel's swordsmanship.

In what way was he "overpowered"? He was stabbed with a divine weapon of God and refused to yield. We do not know the circumstances leading up to how he was weakened, nor do we know how the confrontation would have ended. All we know for certain is, that even without his Morningstar Powers, Lucifer is more than a match for Gabriel, meaning that a full power Lucifer would have absolutely demolished him, giving credence to the idea that someone else, something else, weakened him.

Lucifer was weakened? How?

See above--I detailed each event.

If Michael is able to destroy Lucifer's host, why can't Lucifer do the same?

God's backing--Lucifer was predetermined to rebel and "fall".

And we can't know if he was fighting Michael, but that is against Lucifer, as we only see Gabriel, someone inferior in power, overwhelm Lucifer.

If he was overwhelmed, he would have been beaten, but he wasn't beaten. Gabriel himself is filled with pride, often pathetically arrogant:

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Above, Gabriel was ready to slaughter two children by his own virtue--giving a self-righteous speech to justify his actions. Lucifer however, was fed up with his indignation, the gall of the host, of God, and threatened Gabriel, suggesting he was nothing to him, and in truth he is, for Lucifer's feats are far beyond that of Gabriel's, and Lucifer has demonstrated far more power, speed and competence than Gabriel--he who lost his heart in a fit of passion.

And wouldn't Gabriel be weakened if Lucifer was?

There's no way of knowing.

Didn't BOTH of them fight?

All we know is they had that brief confrontation--we do not know the events prior.

Your scans only prove that Lucifer is adaptable and learned his lesson the first time

No matter how you slice it, Lucifer would need the speed or predictive capabilities to demonstrate superiority over his brother--so it's more than adaptability. What's more is, Lucifer did not have his powers, as he had given them to Mazikeen before he left:

And as a result was weakened from his altercation with Gabriel in the Void:

Beyond this, we also know a full power Lucifer is faster than Gabriel, as he has no feats to match the Morningstar's:

Lucifer's perceptions and reactions are as near as possible to being instantaneous--Gabriel having no feats, no statements to have demonstrate him as comparable.

(also, is his scar the one Mazikeen did to him?).

Yes, after he gave her his powers--he kept it to show he is not a coward--it's entirely superficial:

Why would Gabriel be at full power, just because he fell from Heaven?

Refer back to the scan I previously posted:

And then some:

Lucifer paints the image that it's all or nothing with Gabriel--either he was restored to his angelic glory, or he wasn't. Lucifer, on the other hand, had given his powers to Mazikeen in Lucifer #72, and wouldn't receive a new set for a few more issues--from Elaine.

And wouldn't his fall decrease his power?

Yes--but he has a healing factor, as stated above, just like all the archangels do. That aside, Gabriel did not fall from Heaven after his powers were restored when he attacked Lucifer.

For all I know, the demon could have been there randomly, or Lucifer could have made a deal with God, before everything went down.

It wasn't random--there was an entire issue dedicated to Lucifer pursuing it--Lucifer #9. Plus, we see Lucifer doing it:

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So when the source of power for divine beings left, they lost part of their power, and the ones that got their power from Hell (which obviously didn't remove itself), defeated the former. Makes sense.

Yahweh's name was written on every atom of creation, so when he left, not only did Heaven begin to wane in power, but all of existence began to crumble. Lilith's armies were not of Hell, ruled by Christopher Rudd, but the Lilim-in-Exile, as Hell (a third party) entered the fray late at Lucifer's behest, defeating Sandalphon's half-angels and the Lilim. The greatest threat at that point was Fenris, who was soon eliminated by Lucifer:

Hell enters the fray:

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Lucifer eliminates the Lord of Entropy, Fenris the Wolf--who earlier manifested himself as a spectral lightning bolt and destroyed the Primum Mobile (God's throne within the womb of creation) despite being severely injured/weakened:

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I would also add that Fenris, once he regained physical form, was at his absolute strongest.

I thought a weakened Lucifer wasn't fighting this fight. I thought it was Lilith and Sandalphon's armies.

Lucifer was allied with Hell and Heaven by that point. Lilith, Sandalphon and Fenris were the big bads.

Yes, but they cannot exist without one another. If Michael dies, everything dies.

How do you mean? Lucifer has tanked Michael's greatest power, the Demiurgic release, three times, as I've shown in my opener, with the second third times resulting in Michael's death-- the latter I've shown a number of times throughout this debate--it's when Elaine absorbs his powers with help from Lucifer at the World Tree in Yggdrasil.

If Lucifer dies...well, everything dies?

He's never died, so it would only be speculation. I would imagine that his creation would die, if anything, assuming his name is written on every atom of it, which isn't the case anymore.

but that doesn't prove me wrong.

There's no evidence to suggest Michael has willpower at all close to Lucifer, just as there's no evidence Lucifer has the raw power Michael has--they're antithetical equals. Michael's power is infinite, as I showcased in my opener, whereas Lucifer's willpower is infinite:

And his Morningstar powers aren't omnipotent outside creation (which is his and his brother's realm).

I would argue they're not omnipotent anywhere. I mean sure, you could make an argument about relative omnipotence, in the same way the Beyonder is in his universe, but that is not omnipotence in the same vein as say, Elaine or TOAA.

This power is not impressive, either.

Having the power of every star in the multiverse is fairly impressive, especially when you factor rogue stars nearly destroyed the multiverse in Sandman: Overture by driving everyone mad, and even, together, even managed to imprison Dream of the Endless.

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Beyond that, Lucifer does have some multiversal destruction feats, as he he shattered The Mansions of Silence with his mere presence, the structure too fragile to contain it:

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The Mansions of Silence contained rejected creations--think every possible outcome that could have happened in someone's life, and Lucifer's presence, so vast and powerful, it destroyed everything just by him being there, Heaven's side completely eradicated. This is no different than Elaine's presence, as God, being too large and powerful to enter a basement realm without destroying it:

He also has almost died, but quite cleverly and randomly didn't.

On one occasion due to Izanami's prepwork, which I will detail directly below.

Full-power or not, someone who is only second to God, should know how to NOT get stuck in such situations.

Why not? Being depowered by the plot is the only way to have a story that typically doesn't end with Lucifer taking out his opponents with a single blow, which is exactly what he was going to do to the Basanos in that scenario:

It was only by a plot device, hinged on a complex series of events that took months and months of preparation that it was even able to happen. The plot device was a one-of-a-kind thing, not something the Living Tribunal would be capable of replicating. You see, in The Sandman, where he first appeared, Lucifer, upon much introspection, abdicated his throne in Hell, forcing every single inhabitant out. He cited his reasoning as being tired of it--the triumvirate (three kings of Hell) only existing because he ordained to keep himself entertained. And in truth, if he wanted, by feats and statements, his own in particular, he has the power to destroy all the denizens of Hell perhaps effortlessly:

So he had Morpheus (Dream of the Endless), cut off his wings, handing him the key to the most valuable plot of psychic real estate on the market:

As a result, his wings were left in Hell, where the deceitful, self-loathing Remiel sold his wings to Izanami:

And so Lucifer ventured to her realm, relinquishing his powers at the gate, journeying for nine days straight while mortal in a demon infested desert. From there, he manipulated, contrived and laid waste to her sons. Even Susano, having sent a demon to kill him in his vulnerable state realized his strategy failed, as if Lucifer had the opportunity to speak, it would be over:

I'll spare you the remaining details, about how he defeated the rest of them, powerless, cutting to the point just before receiving his wings:

Izanami vomits up special pinfeathers that are injected into his wings before they're given back while in his mortal form. These feathers took months upon months to gestate:

Through an ancient, extremely powerful magic, requiring the utmost precision on his execution, costing Susano (who's an ancient Japanese god by the way) his hands:

It was only then that Lucifer's power could be backfired on himself--the internal forces in his body unable to find equilibrium.

To conclude this ordeal:

• Lucifer at no point would give up his powers in this battle, thus this would not work, even with prep time.
• The Tribunal has no prep time.
• The Tribunal has no knowledge of these magicks.
• The Tribunal would not have the opportunity to create the ceremony and execute it even if he did have prep.

The nigh-omnipotent Titans? I hope you don't mean the group in which the guy who Wonder Woman, Deathstroke and Superman wasted in Deathstroke: God Killer, belongs.

Er... no, I do not. I'm talking about the Titans that usurped Yahweh's throne and nearly obtained omnipotence:

That's no feat, as the Velleity has nothing to even remotely hurt the LT.

Lucifer's will is infinite, which I have already shown in application in my opener, when he creates his cosmos. The feat merely shows that even a powerful ancient pantheon of gods cannot overpower him by sheer force of will (i.e. showing his will in battle application). As it stands, you've demonstrated zero feats to suggest the Living Tribunal has the power to overcome infinite willpower, and such, would end up just like the Velleity.

So Lucifer is able to take mortal souls. Makes sense, but again, no big feat. When ''nigh-omnipotent'' beings have stupid weaknesses, it only makes sense they will go so far...

The point was to show that, even centimeters away from something gaining momentum that could potentially kill him, he was able to snuff out every soul in the vicinity, such is the nature of his will. It's a willpower feat in the sense that it shows how he can reach out and end souls, a speed feat, complimenting the idea that he can react at as near instantaneously as possible, and an intelligence feat, as he was able to solve the puzzle walking straight into it, just by observing its nature. This aids him in a number of ways, as he will be able to analyze and understand the nature of the Tribunal, developing a strategy on the fly to deal with him.

Again, he was dealing with mortals (and the weakest kind of mortals-humans!). These are not feats.

That's not the point of the feats--they're there to show that reality is his to bend as he so chooses, how the mechanics of his powers work, for all material in the universe is his to meld and bend to do with as he pleases, like a book he reads from, altering the words as he so chooses.

Plus the LT is all-knowing, as it wouldn't be able to dispense judgment, if not.

Yet, zero feats have been provided to suggest the Tribunal is omniscient, especially when there's evidence to the contrary (e.g., getting taken down by the Ivory Kings). Furthermore, why would he have to be omniscient to dispense judgement? How does that follow? It's a non-sequitur.

Isn't this proof that the LT can also be de-powered and weakened? That maybe the LT was depowered for the sake of the story, and that a fully powered LT would be more than enough to handle everyone, since he was able to handle the Beyonder?

No, that's an extremely weak cop-out. It's made abundantly clear, as I've shown, that Lucifer was weakened--it's not a matter of opinion--it's a fact of the narrative--whereas in the case of the Tribunal, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest he was underperforming, and you only base it on the fact he's handled Post-Retcon Beyonder, who you have failed to demonstrate as being above that particular Korvac, and your opinion that he should be more powerful, thus he would have to be depowered--which is circular reasoning.

And since you brought up that the Beyonder isn't on Lucifer's level:

The Beyonder, a being less powerful than the Ivory Kings (keep that in mind), came from the Beyonder Realm (home to all Beyonders), into the Marvel-verse. There, he was like a god. The only person who could even keep up with him was Molecule-Man, but even he wasn't enough to defeat the Beyonder. He made Earth's mightiest heroes and villains ''dance'' for him in Battleworld, and could tank this: http://i.imgur.com/xQ3DNc4.jpg

And all that, while not even in his own Realm!

Barring the fact that isn't anymore impressive than the Demiurgic release--it's not even the same Beyonder you're talking about--that's Pre-Retcon Beyonder.

At the same time, we see Lucifer getting his ass kicked by lower angels, inside creation.

There's context behind each scan you've presented, and I feel I've adequately addressed all of them.

I believe that Lucifer's feats of will, are a little low, to be considered sufficient.

Creating an infinite cosmos bound by his will is insufficient? Something that Michael passed out from doing, unable to maintain it?

We're talking about a guy that literally threw time forward by sheer force of will, yet his willpower feats are low? Despite all this, I've yet to see any feats for the Tribunal presented, that he would have the durability necessary to contend with Lucifer's will, or the power of Lucifer's infinite fires.

Being able to manipulate/read humans is no big deal. The enemies Lucifer has fought aren't really impressive, either. A lower-level angel beat him in combat during a war and he was saved by God in the last second.

This is taken completely out of context. As I mentioned above, Lucifer showed no signs of backing down. I do not understand how one stab wound equate to being defeated, not to mention not knowing the previous context surrounding the prior events.

Another angel beat him in combat and the reason why he didn't die was because he had a backup plan.

Amenadiel? He didn't beat Lucifer at all--a Lucifer that had no powers whatsoever, mind you. This is a deliberate misconstruing of events.

All in all, Lucifer only has the title ''second to God'', but in reality, a lot more can hurt him. He was also severly weakened in multiple occasions.

All of which have been addressed appropriately. Ignoring the context doesn't somehow make it go away, either, I would add.

The reason he never died, is because it wasn't part of God's plan. If it wasn't for daddy, who knows how things might had ended up?

This is based on nothing but conjecture.

• No durability feats have been provided for the Living Tribunal to suggest that he can take what Lucifer is dishing, whether it be by force of will or his Lightbringer powers.
  • A few judgement feats were provided, but there was little attempt to show they would affect Lucifer.
    • There was a reliance on power scaling without demonstrating the characters scaled from would be able to harm Lucifer.
      • The only instance really expanded on was Beyonder--the wrong Beyonder.
• Scans were taken out of context, and when the context explained it was ignored, as though it were irrelevant.
  • The arguments basically came down to, "Lucifer was weakened and fighting lesser beings, therefore he will lose."
    • It was ignored this Lucifer is at full power and the Tribunal lacks the plot devices necessary to replicate weakening Lucifer.

I maintain the position that Lucifer will be able to ascertain the nature of his enemy, dealing with him swiftly by either imposing his will upon him or using his Morningstar powers to strike him down with an infinite flame that dims all the stars in the multiverse as he raises his hand to strike.

@wollfmyth@asgardianbrony@skyroid@thebestofthebest@bloodwarlock@theholyland@lunacyde@huir@larcadedragneel@thesuperor@ataraxy@thedarkpaladin@jloneblackheart@helloman@giliad_