NEW 52 Superman V.S Wonder Woman

Batcrow, can you actually explain to me why you think Supergirl is stronger than Superman? Give me PROOF.

I never gave my thoughts on the matter, it was being discussed and I laid out what Supergirl 12 was saying about the matter.

@Batcrow

That's the way Azz has been writing the entire series. PLEASE READ MY POST AGAIN. Why exactly do you disagree.

She was not wearing her bracelets in Tartarus. She was not wearing her normal bracers (and only one, at that, I believe) when she charged into Tartarus, and she was not wearing any bracers before the "wedding". You'll notice a lack of glowing eyes, or any type of power-up. Pretty much discredits anything you're saying.

In fact, in all of issues 8 and 9, she was not wearing her bracers. No power-up to be seen.

This discredits your claim, and lends credit to mine.

Explanations?

If they are the BoV, they are forged by the gods for the champion of the Amazons and given to WW.

If they are normal Amazonian bracelets (which I thought they originally were - I don't think she has her indestructible bracers yet), then they're shackles given to the Amazons by the gods. This would most likely inhibit her powers rebelling against the gods of Olympus.

Anyway, I think this pretty much nullified your point.

"whether they show Supergirl beat Superman or not, they've still established a reason for her superiority in this continuity" are your exact words. There are all these silly theories on Supergirl being stronger, but when it comes down. Superman has better feats, Supergirl truly believes she can beat Superman but she can't. He was raised on Earth so he has morals and restrains himself. While Supergirl doesn't, that and he has shown better feats. You can't dispute that. You may have layed out what that issue said but you obviously didn't look at both of their feats and other encounters. Superman is more powerful than Supergirl. People have to get with this.

As for the battle. Superman wins.

@comicdude23 said:

"whether they show Supergirl beat Superman or not, they've still established a reason for her superiority in this continuity" are your exact words. There are all these silly theories on Supergirl being stronger, but when it comes down. Superman has better feats, Supergirl truly believes she can beat Superman but she can't. He was raised on Earth so he has morals and restrains himself. While Supergirl doesn't, that and he has shown better feats. You can't dispute that. You may have layed out what that issue said but you obviously didn't look at both of their feats and other encounters. Superman is more powerful than Supergirl. People have to get with this.

I assume the difference in their strength would be somewhere close to the difference in strength of a human male and female of equivalent builds. Superman is pretty build, and Kara is fairly lithe. This would easily make Superman three or four times as strong as Supergirl, maybe more.

@greenteaforme: She was wearing her bracers underneath the red wedding dress. While escaping from Hades, the dress tore in places and the bracers were revealed.

@CitizenBane said:

@greenteaforme: She was wearing her bracers underneath the red wedding dress. While escaping from Hades, the dress tore in places and the bracers were revealed.

And before that, with her bare wrists?

@greenteaforme: She didn't have the bracers there.

Pretty sure that the build has nothing to do with it...

@CitizenBane said:

@greenteaforme: She didn't have the bracers there.

Which is the point.

You'll notice she isn't magically empowered, able to smack around gods on a whim, eyes glowing and hair flowing around her stylishly.

@CitizenBane said:

They wouldn't have to assume that she'd lash out at everyone near her. But if you hold her damn sword and demand her to stop, THEN yes you can assume or expect things. Green Lantern confronted her, and so did Superman in a way. I'm not saying if he has to plead or cry, thats completely irrelevant, I said Superman was not pleading or crying that he'd expect Wonder Woman to sit in a corner and listen. Why are you suggesting that I told you Superman should plead or cry. I mean, really?

And if he didn't expect Supergirl to do something in that scenario, then that means he wouldn't be very smart in combat. (Though you don't know what he expected or not, you don't speak for his mind.) And technically he should've blocked her that time too, but yeah, Supergirl was fast enough to hit him without letting him block. And when Supergirl did hit him, he didn't get knocked back over several feet,bleed or say that the pain would hurt him all day. But that's another topic.

And I said that, given how fast Superman is according to you, he technically SHOULD have been able to block her. And he woud've, if he responded fast enough. Why would you CHOOSE, as you say, to let someone hit you that hard. (superman acknowledged and realises her strength from long ago) So I'm still saying he wasn't that much faster otherwise he'd block her. In other words, I said, he should've stopped her if you say it was well within his ability. What's not clear?

Apollo is actually way stronger than you think. Did you see what happened to that car which tried to hit him. The gods have been made ridiculously stronger since the reboot, if you've been keeping up with interviews and reading the book since day 1. It's not a shortcoming on Wonder Woman's part, it's just that Apollo is that powerful even when he isn't using his full power. They are intended by the writer to be incredibly dangerous and truer to actual mythology (regarding their power). I don't know why you think Superman's punches would affect her the same way Apollo's do, the god of the Sun. Even then, she still held a bit of her own and recovered soon enough, considering.

She still survived quite a few blows, and you saw what happened to Lennox, another demigod, with ONE punch from a holding back, relaxed Artemis, and Apollo is probably even stronger.

Based off the latest issue of Wonder Woman, if she taps into her potential power, then she definitely takes it...since she curbstomped one god (Artemis) and Superman got flattened by the one he faced (Darkseid). Otherwise I think it comes down to whenever Superman can get a lucky punch in, since according to JL 11 she is capable of wounding him normally...and she is the one who's had combat training and he hasn't.

@greenteaforme: As WDW said, Artemis was just one of Five goddesse's who created the Amazons in the post-Crisis era (Athena, Demeter, Aphordite and Hestia being the other four).

@Outside_85 said:

Based off the latest issue of Wonder Woman, if she taps into her potential power, then she definitely takes it...since she curbstomped one god (Artemis) and Superman got flattened by the one he faced (Darkseid). Otherwise I think it comes down to whenever Superman can get a lucky punch in, since according to JL 11 she is capable of wounding him normally...and she is the one who's had combat training and he hasn't.

While I agree with most of what you're saying, I have to add:

The entire League faced Darkseid at the beginning of the run, and it took the entire League to simply send him away.

THOUGH.

I have to say Wonder Woman definitely did the best in that fight, in my opinion. Happily stabbing Darkseid in the eye, and getting a few other good hits in, when the others were running around and getting smashed.

@greenteaforme: I will add that the League overall wasn't particularly effective against Darkseid and it was mainly Cyborg's scalp when he boomed him out, that said it was the normal level of Diana back then.

@Outside_85 said:

Based off the latest issue of Wonder Woman, if she taps into her potential power, then she definitely takes it...since she curbstomped one god (Artemis) and Superman got flattened by the one he faced (Darkseid).

Rubbish logic. There is no proof that Artemis is in any way even comparable to Darkseid. This is like claiming that Sentry is superior to Thor on the grounds that he effortlessly killed one god (Ares) while Thor was stomped by another god (Odin).

@greenteaforme said:

@CitizenBane said:

@greenteaforme: She didn't have the bracers there.

Which is the point.

You'll notice she isn't magically empowered, able to smack around gods on a whim, eyes glowing and hair flowing around her stylishly.

That's not what I meant. I fully agree that there are situations where she hasn't entered God Mode even though the bracers were off, I even posted 2 scans of such situations in my reply to Erik on page 3. I just meant that one of the situations you provided (the one with the dress) was a faulty example, that's all.

@Batcrow said:

@CitizenBane said:

They wouldn't have to assume that she'd lash out at everyone near her. But if you hold her damn sword and demand her to stop, THEN yes you can assume or expect things.

You make it sound like trying to pacify someone by attempting to disarm them and asking them to stop is practically begging for them to hit you. It's not. Unless Wonder Woman was in a completely unreasonable state where she'll hit anyone around, there's no reason to be expecting a kick in the stomach.

Green Lantern confronted her, and so did Superman in a way.

He did no such thing. This is the sum extent of Superman's "confrontation".

Attemp to disarm, request to stop. That's about all it was. There's no indication that he ran in expecting Wonder Woman to be irrational enough that she'd kick him even though he did nothing wrong. Hal may be understandable since he blocked her path and her dialogue suggested that he'd pissed her off in the past as well. Superman, not so much. Even better is the fact that he didn't even get the word "Stop" out, while he was halfway through his request she just up and kicks him.

And if he didn't expect Supergirl to do something in that scenario, then that means he wouldn't be very smart in combat.

See, magic word. It wasn't a combat situation to him. He didn't want to fight her, he wasn't interested in fighting her. Once in a while during their encounter when he actually did feel the need to defend himself, he did so, and easily.

(Though you don't know what he expected or not, you don't speak for his mind.)

You're right; I don't. He does that just fine.

He made it clear multiple times in that encounter that he wasn't interested in fighting her. She may have felt the need to vent her anger. That's not his problem.

And technically he should've blocked her that time too, but yeah, Supergirl was fast enough to hit him without letting him block.

It's not that she was fast, she wasn't even faster than Superboy when they fought. He simply didn't feel the need to block. When he actually did fight back after letting her vent for a while, he nearly tossed her into orbit before she even knew what was happening.

So first she's too fast for him, and then she's not?

And when Supergirl did hit him, he didn't get knocked back over several feet

Are you joking? She kicked him straight through the Great Wall of China. He went flying back a LOT further than he did when Wonder Woman kicked him.

Seriously, just take a look at his trajectory:

bleed or say that the pain would hurt him all day

He never said the pain would hurt him all day. He said he'd be feeling it for a while.

In which universe does "a while" translate as "all day"?

And I said that, given how fast Superman is according to you, he technically SHOULD have been able to block her. And he woud've, if he responded fast enough. Why would you CHOOSE, as you say, to let someone hit you that hard.

He didn't "choose" to let her hit him. He didn't walk into the situation thinking that Diana would kick him in the gut, but screw that, let's let her do it. He didn't think she'd kick him at all.

So I'm still saying he wasn't that much faster otherwise he'd block her. In other words, I said, he should've stopped her if you say it was well within his ability. What's not clear?

What's not clear? Seriously? I don't know how many times I can go over the same point over and over again. Here's a comparison; Silver Surfer is one of the fastest Marvel characters there is; and Hulk still whacked him with a tree in Silver Surfer #125. This despite the fact that Hulk is a slow brick who struggles to tag street levelers like Spider-Man and Wolverine. Do we attribute Hulk hitting Surfer to the fact that Surfer wasn't expecting a fight or do we claim "Oh, Hulk tagged him, so Surfer isn't that much faster because otherwise he'd have blocked the tree"?

Honestly, I'm a little tired of this line of reasoning by now. Let's change tack for a moment. Superman hits her with his heat vision. Boom. Fight over. Unless you have some durability showings for Diana that prove she can handle his heat vision, which I know you don't since I've read all her DCnU showings to date. Let's assume that she has the speed to contend with Superman. She still does not have anywhere near the durability.

Apollo is actually way stronger than you think. Did you see what happened to that car which tried to hit him.

LMAO, why would you make that claim and then use that example? This is like saying "Superman is way stronger than you think. He once caught a bullet." I'm not sure why you brought up a completely unimpressive feat like wrecking a car. Him beating up Diana is good enough for me as an indicator that he's powerful.

It's not a shortcoming on Wonder Woman's part, it's just that Apollo is that powerful even when he isn't using his full power. They are intended by the writer to be incredibly dangerous and truer to actual mythology (regarding their power).

I never said it was a shortcoming on her part. Merely that it is the only display of her durability to date.......and it is not a very good one at that.

I don't know why you think Superman's punches would affect her the same way Apollo's do, the god of the Sun.

Words do not exist to convey how completely and totally uninterested I am in titles like "god of the sun" and so on.

Even then, she still held a bit of her own and recovered soon enough, considering.

She did no such thing. At the end of the fight she herself made it more than clear that she was only alive because he allowed her to live. If he wanted her dead, he would not have had a problem ending her life.

and you saw what happened to Lennox, another demigod, with ONE punch from a holding back, relaxed Artemis, and Apollo is probably even stronger.

What has Lennox ever done to indicate that beating him up is something worth mentioning? Really, the only way that feat is impressive is if you want to oversell the "demigod" title.

Superman, too many powers. Straight up H2H WW might beat brakes off New 52 Supes. .

@CitizenBane: I changed my mind. YOU ARE BATMAN!

@CitizenBane: I'm going to say it's equally rubbish logic when you say Darkseid is more powerful than Artemis, when you simply cant prove it.

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane: I'm going to say it's equally rubbish logic when you say Darkseid is more powerful than Artemis, when you simply cant prove it.

Of course I can. He one-shotted Superman. What did Artemis do apart from grappling with original Diana and then getting curbstomped by God Mode Diana?

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane: I'm going to say it's equally rubbish logic when you say Darkseid is more powerful than Artemis, when you simply cant prove it.

What exactly puts Artemis at an equal or even ahead of Darkseid?

@comicdude23 said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane: I'm going to say it's equally rubbish logic when you say Darkseid is more powerful than Artemis, when you simply cant prove it.

What exactly puts Artemis at an equal or even ahead of Darkseid?

Being a god, apparently.

@CitizenBane said:

@comicdude23 said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane: I'm going to say it's equally rubbish logic when you say Darkseid is more powerful than Artemis, when you simply cant prove it.

What exactly puts Artemis at an equal or even ahead of Darkseid?

Being a god, apparently.

...That doesn't even make any sense

@CitizenBane: So he is a bigger threat because he can one shot Superman with his be-all-end-all weapon?

@comicdude23 said:

@CitizenBane: I changed my mind. YOU ARE BATMAN!

LOL mi pick still is Superman

@comicdude23 said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane: I'm going to say it's equally rubbish logic when you say Darkseid is more powerful than Artemis, when you simply cant prove it.

What exactly puts Artemis at an equal or even ahead of Darkseid?

What put's Darkseid on hers? That he can break Jordan's arm?

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane: So he is a bigger threat because he can one shot Superman with his be-all-end-all weapon?

You've failed to answer my question; exactly what has Artemis done to make her comparable to Darkseid in any way?

@Outside_85: That he has better feats? Versatility?

@CitizenBane: What has Darkseid done? It's utter rubbish logic you're applying here because it's Darkseid, regardless of what he has or hasn't done, because it's Darkseid he is simply more impressive. And Artemis took Hermes and Lennox apart if you must know.

@comicdude23: What feats? Beating a bunch of featless people?

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane: What has Darkseid done? It's utter rubbish logic you're applying here because it's Darkseid, regardless of what he has or hasn't done, because it's Darkseid he is simply more impressive. And Artemis took Hermes and Lennox apart if you must know.

Curbstomped Hal, one-shotted Superman, sent the Omega Beams moving so fast Flash ran out of breath dodging them. I do not see why I need to remind you of what he has done, you know what he has done.

Oh, but Artemis beat up two featless "demigods", obviously she's on Darkseid's level. What a joke.

Not gonna lie, the whole "tapping into Zeus' power thing" is highly inconsistent given the times she's had her bracers off in her new series. Some new form of explanation does need to be provided by Azarello.

@Outside_85 said:

@comicdude23: What feats? Beating a bunch of featless people?

How is Superman featless?

Darkseid smacking around the JL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Artemis feats

@comicdude23 said:

@Outside_85 said:

@comicdude23: What feats? Beating a bunch of featless people?

How is Superman featless?

Oh yes, thats right, he's punched Hal, he's punched Brainiac and jumped up to his ship at this time. That's is feats at this time.

@CitizenBane said:

Curbstomped Hal, one-shotted Superman, sent the Omega Beams moving so fast Flash ran out of breath dodging them. I do not see why I need to remind you of what he has done, you know what he has done.

Oh, but Artemis beat up two featless "demigods", obviously she's on Darkseid's level. What a joke.

Again you apply that rubbish logic...the joke is you.

@Outside_85: Did you miss the Supergirl scans?

@Outside_85 said:

@comicdude23 said:

@Outside_85 said:

@comicdude23: What feats? Beating a bunch of featless people?

How is Superman featless?

Oh yes, thats right, he's punched Hal, he's punched Brainiac and jumped up to his ship at this time. That's is feats at this time.

.......have you actually been reading Superman or are you intentionally trolling? Because that is the only impression I am getting right now. His feats at this time are better than just those two things.

Again you apply that rubbish logic...the joke is you.

Mmhmm. Sure.

Artemis has no feats on Darkseid's level whatsoever. Deal with it.

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@comicdude23 said:

@Outside_85 said:

@comicdude23: What feats? Beating a bunch of featless people?

How is Superman featless?

Oh yes, thats right, he's punched Hal, he's punched Brainiac and jumped up to his ship at this time. That's is feats at this time.

.......have you actually been reading Superman or are you intentionally trolling? Because that is the only impression I am getting right now. His feats at this time are better than just those two things.

Again you apply that rubbish logic...the joke is you.

Mmhmm. Sure.

Artemis has no feats on Darkseid's level whatsoever. Deal with it.

Actually you apparently dont get the context of the argument.

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@comicdude23 said:

@Outside_85 said:

@comicdude23: What feats? Beating a bunch of featless people?

How is Superman featless?

Oh yes, thats right, he's punched Hal, he's punched Brainiac and jumped up to his ship at this time. That's is feats at this time.

.......have you actually been reading Superman or are you intentionally trolling? Because that is the only impression I am getting right now. His feats at this time are better than just those two things.

Again you apply that rubbish logic...the joke is you.

Mmhmm. Sure.

Artemis has no feats on Darkseid's level whatsoever. Deal with it.

Actually you apparently dont get the context of the argument.

Riiiight, that's probably it.

@CitizenBane said:

Riiiight, that's probably it.

It's there for all to see /shrug

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Riiiight, that's probably it.

It's there for all to see /shrug

The part where you claimed that beating up Hermes and Lennox is somehow equitable to what Darkseid did? Indeed.

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Riiiight, that's probably it.

It's there for all to see /shrug

The part where you claimed that beating up Hermes and Lennox is somehow equitable to what Darkseid did? Indeed.

Which part of beating up a god and a demi-god is it you have difficulty understanding?

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Riiiight, that's probably it.

It's there for all to see /shrug

The part where you claimed that beating up Hermes and Lennox is somehow equitable to what Darkseid did? Indeed.

Which part of beating up a god and a demi-god is it you have difficulty understanding?

Because beating up completely featless people is still totally legit as a feat as long as those people have meaningless titles like "god" and "demi-god", right?

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Riiiight, that's probably it.

It's there for all to see /shrug

The part where you claimed that beating up Hermes and Lennox is somehow equitable to what Darkseid did? Indeed.

Which part of beating up a god and a demi-god is it you have difficulty understanding?

Because beating up completely featless people is still totally legit as a feat as long as those people have meaningless titles like "god" and "demi-god", right?

And that somehow makes it more valid when they have famous names and are equally featless? Sure...

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Riiiight, that's probably it.

It's there for all to see /shrug

The part where you claimed that beating up Hermes and Lennox is somehow equitable to what Darkseid did? Indeed.

Which part of beating up a god and a demi-god is it you have difficulty understanding?

Because beating up completely featless people is still totally legit as a feat as long as those people have meaningless titles like "god" and "demi-god", right?

And that somehow makes it more valid when they have famous names and are equally featless? Sure...

Except they're not featless, and it takes roughly 2 minutes to verify whether they have feats or not, which brings me back to my original point, have you actually been reading any of their stuff or are you just intentionally trolling?

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Riiiight, that's probably it.

It's there for all to see /shrug

The part where you claimed that beating up Hermes and Lennox is somehow equitable to what Darkseid did? Indeed.

Which part of beating up a god and a demi-god is it you have difficulty understanding?

Because beating up completely featless people is still totally legit as a feat as long as those people have meaningless titles like "god" and "demi-god", right?

And that somehow makes it more valid when they have famous names and are equally featless? Sure...

Except they're not featless, and it takes roughly 2 minutes to verify whether they have feats or not, which brings me back to my original point, have you actually been reading any of their stuff or are you just intentionally trolling?

Context m8te; they have the getting together issues in JL and Action Comics as your feats references and its not great.

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Riiiight, that's probably it.

It's there for all to see /shrug

The part where you claimed that beating up Hermes and Lennox is somehow equitable to what Darkseid did? Indeed.

Which part of beating up a god and a demi-god is it you have difficulty understanding?

Because beating up completely featless people is still totally legit as a feat as long as those people have meaningless titles like "god" and "demi-god", right?

And that somehow makes it more valid when they have famous names and are equally featless? Sure...

Except they're not featless, and it takes roughly 2 minutes to verify whether they have feats or not, which brings me back to my original point, have you actually been reading any of their stuff or are you just intentionally trolling?

Context m8te; they have the getting together issues in JL and Action Comics as your feats references and its not great.

Ok? Let us limit Superman to just the feats from Action Comics, shall we? In the first issue of Action Comics alone he has better feats than Hermes and Lennox have in 12 issues of Wonder Woman. Really, what are you even trying to say here?

@CitizenBane: That there is a distinctive difference between gods and things that are simply aliens, just because they haven't been squared off with anyone not on their level doesnt mean they are any less in power than Darkseid.

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane: That there is a distinctive difference between gods and things that are simply aliens, just because they haven't been squared off with anyone not on their level doesnt mean they are any less in power than Darkseid.

I'm sorry, is this supposed to mean something other than "Hermes, Lennox and Artemis do not have any feats to support the notion that they are on Darkseid's level"? Whether or not they have the feats to justify whatever status you seem to accord to gods is their problem.

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

@CitizenBane: That there is a distinctive difference between gods and things that are simply aliens, just because they haven't been squared off with anyone not on their level doesnt mean they are any less in power than Darkseid.

I'm sorry, is this supposed to mean something other than "Hermes, Lennox and Artemis do not have any feats to support the notion that they are on Darkseid's level"? Whether or not they have the feats to justify whatever status you seem to accord to gods is their problem.

And according to you, because Darkseid can brawl with the League means he is better...I suppose the Martian Manhunter is on Darkseid's level then according to you?