I knew the latest issue of Wonder Woman would cause a stir in who would win in a fight between these two.
@Erik: Given the events of Wonder Woman 12 and your avatar, I assume you'd be interested in seeing a unchecked Wonder Woman vs Superman fight now? Maybe to even the playing field, even though New 52 Superman hasn't done this yet, perhaps it would be fairer to have a no bracelets Wonder Woman vs a sun dipped Superman? Now that would be a good fight.
I would like to see a full powered fight between them in this new universe, yes.
With Diana's latest showing against the god Artemis, I'd say she officially outperforms Superman in combat (so far) and takes it.
Also, I'm not sure that the bracelets specifically limit her power, so much as they were given to the amazons by the goddess Artemis after Artemis herself created them. I think they would have had some sort of enchantment on them that disabled their efforts if they were ever to rebel against the gods, or specifically against Artemis. Or perhaps Artemis was magically limiting WW's power through the bracelets specifically. Either way, I don't think the bracers themselves limit Diana's power, as you described.
Also, I'd like to add, this proves that the bracers are the normal bracers worn by all Amazons, and are not the indestructible aegis bracers. She will probably receive them very soon, as she's shed her Amazon shackles and I see Hephaestus forging her trademark bracers for her now.
They do limit WW's power. I do not think these bracelets were created by Artemis in this universe. Nothing from the previous universe can be taken as canon. There is nothing to prove anything you are saying actually. WW puts those bracelets back on as soon as the fight is over. Furthermore, the WW title takes place in the present. It is not doing a 5 years in the past ordeal like Action Comics.
@CitizenBane said:
Diana kicking Supes when he wasn't expecting it can't be called a fight. All that could be inferred from her previously known power levels was that she was strong enough to hurt Superman.There are plenty of people who can make that claim and still not be much of a fight for Superman. Mongul and Kalibak, for example, have both displayed (pre-Flashpoint examples just for the sake of the point) sufficient strength to hurt Superman just as much as Wonder Woman did in Justice League #11, but they've both lost almost every single fight against Superman they've had, and some of those fights weren't even close. Wonder Woman's strong enough to hurt Superman, but her speed and (most importantly) durability showings are still sorely lacking compared to his. He's blitzed Hal, reconstructed a building in minutes and (incredibly stupid feat, but still) read through every medical text ever published in 5 minutes. Does she have any showings that suggest she could contend with his speed? I've seen the ones where she bullet-times and blocks different kinds of projectiles, but her reaction speed feats aren't anywhere near his level yet. Does she have any showings that suggest she can handle his heat vision?
I read Wonder Woman #12 and the bracelet thing makes very little sense to me. In the 12 issues of her book so far she's been in situations where her bracelets weren't on, and she still didn't go "God Mode".
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I can't tell whether that's just Azzarello being inconsistent and forgetting what he wrote, or if there's something here that I'm not getting. Either way, I get the feeling there might be more to this "God Mode" thing than just removing the bracelets, something that's not been elaborated on yet.
But that aside, even if we assume that removing the bracelets is all it takes, would she actually do it here? She's done it once in all her showings this past year. She didn't do it against Apollo even though that fight went badly enough for her that at the end of it, she remarked that she only lived because he didn't feel like killing her. She didn't do it against Darkseid, or even against Hal and Superman in Justice League #11 despite being angry and upset at the time over Steve's kidnapping and Tracy yelling at her. Why would she do it here?
@Erik said:
@CitizenBane:
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I can post the previous fight tomorrow if you would like a comparison of how Artemis tooled WW with the bracelets on.
The problem I have with this fight is that even though it clearly shows a rise in power level, it doesn't indicate whether her durability has increased to the point where she can tangle with or overpower Superman. She doesn't allow Artemis to hit her even once, so there's no telling how she would have reacted this time to attacks that formerly tooled her.
I do not want to get into the tangled web of kicking Superman when he was not expecting it. Even if we assume that Superman has pathetic reaction time, it does not change the fact that her kick caused him significant pain that he himself said was going to affect him the entire day. If he was expecting it, if he was not expecting it, both are irrelevant in what I am trying to show. If he were expecting it, it does not mean it would not have hurt him. Just like you admitted, she is strong enough to hurt him even with the bracelets. Now once she took them off, it was heavily implied that she was markedly stronger and faster, considering Artemis could do nothing to stop WW's onslaught when before, Artemis seemed at least slightly faster than WW. So we know strength and speed are considerably hampered by the bracelets.
I do not understand why her durability would not also be hampered by wearing the bracelets. They are not merely weighted. If they were, she would have been able to still kick Artemis with equal speed and strength. They have to be sapping her ability magically. Besides that, with the bracelets off, it seemed clear that she was able to access an entirely new level of power. It makes no sense to me that this new "god mode" would boost all her other stats with the exception of durability and I know that does not make sense to you either.
As for matching Superman's reaction speed feats, that kick should be sufficient. If Superman's reaction speed eclipses hers so much, there is absolutely no way her kick would have connected or even surprised him. But it did both. The only logical conclusion we can reach based on that is that her speed was comparable. Either that or when Superman tried to stop her, he must have zoned out listening to someone's ipod on the other side of the planet.
In those scans without her bracelets, she was also not in combat. Do you have scans of her taking off her bracelets during combat without accessing this god mode? Even if the access to this god mode is a choice, the bracelets would have to still be limiting that access, otherwise she would have used it during her first fight with Artemis. The stakes were still the same in both encounters, only WW had time to remove the bracelets in the second fight.
Granted, she may not take the bracelets off for a fight with Superman. In fact, she did not take them off when she actually beat on the JL but then again, she was not overpowered to the point that she needed to before she came to listen to reason. She was still a handful for the JL with them on.
Are you sure about WW being in the present? Because she only JUST got her blessing of flight here, and she was already flying in the JLA comics...
As for matching Superman's reaction speed feats, that kick should be sufficient. If Superman's reaction speed eclipses hers so much, there is absolutely no way her kick would have connected or even surprised him. But it did both. The only logical conclusion we can reach based on that is that her speed was comparable. Either that or when Superman tried to stop her, he must have zoned out listening to someone's ipod on the other side of the planet.
Neh, I don't believe that at all. You can't solely base her reaction speed on that one instance when she has nothing else to back it up. All she did was kick Superman when he was trying to talk to her. But if you take it as a feat, then Hal Jordan must be just as fast since he was able to bumrush an aware Diana only a couple pages beforehand. And honestly, I think we should all just wait before we assume too much about those bracelets, especially in the sense that it catapults her to a level where she's above Superman. The bracelets, in my opinion, restricted her to what seemed like a street leveler level, because really, has she done anything impressive up until this issue? So, I think the removal of them just brings her back to where she is in JL.
Are you sure about WW being in the present? Because she only JUST got her blessing of flight here, and she was already flying in the JLA comics...
Oh good point. I do not remember her flying in JL though. Can you give me an instance to go back and read? I have read them all, but honestly the series is pretty forgettable so I just do not remember much from it.
@Billy Batson said:
Erik warming up to the new 52 Wondy...? BB
Hardly. This is more like we finally got an issue from the WW title that did not end with me wanting to punch myself in the face.
@buttersdaman000 said:
@Erik said:
As for matching Superman's reaction speed feats, that kick should be sufficient. If Superman's reaction speed eclipses hers so much, there is absolutely no way her kick would have connected or even surprised him. But it did both. The only logical conclusion we can reach based on that is that her speed was comparable. Either that or when Superman tried to stop her, he must have zoned out listening to someone's ipod on the other side of the planet.
Neh, I don't believe that at all. You can't solely base her reaction speed on that one instance when she has nothing else to back it up. All she did was kick Superman when he was trying to talk to her. But if you take it as a feat, then Hal Jordan must be just as fast since he was able to bumrush an aware Diana only a couple pages beforehand. And honestly, I think we should all just wait before we assume too much about those bracelets, especially in the sense that it catapults her to a level where she's above Superman. The bracelets, in my opinion, restricted her to what seemed like a street leveler level, because really, has she done anything impressive up until this issue? So, I think the removal of them just brings her back to where she is in JL.
And why not? We base Constantine Drakon's speed on just that one or two appearances.
And if Superman's speed was so much more impressive than WW's, the kick would have been seen and countered well before it connected.
Hal never did anything to WW other than get pwnd so no, not really.
No. That is nowhere near correct. Street level? That is the outrageous claim. She performed super human feats in her title thus far. On top of that, her first fight with Artemis would have been significantly different were she only street level. You want to talk about bullsh!t claims, your post epitomizes the phrase. There was not a single street level limitation shown in her series thus far.
@Erik: - Let me elaborate. You can't base her speed on one instance where there is no quantifiable time to even back it up. All she did was kick Superman. Stuff like that happens all the time. If all it takes is an unchallenged attack to be just as fast as Superman or whoever than I guess Anguish, or Graves, must be fast as hell! Whoever this Drakon is must have had a feat in which his speed was measurable. All Wonder Woman did was throw a kick. - So I guess Superman is big on dodging now? - Yeah, Hal bumrushed her. If Wonder Woman were so fast, she would have countered. - Street Level may be a bit too harsh but she has exhibited nothing impressive in 11 issues. I mean the best I can think of is her picking up a truck. If it weren't for JL everybody would think WW had been seriously nerfed.
I don't recall Wondy flying in JL. I remember her being carried by GL, though. I think it's a bit too soon to say what level she or Superman are at, right now. 12 issues in, and we're just now starting to lean about Diana's bracelets.
@Erik: - Let me elaborate. You can't base her speed on one instance where there is no quantifiable time to even back it up. All she did was kick Superman. Stuff like that happens all the time. If all it takes is an unchallenged attack to be just as fast as Superman or whoever than I guess Anguish, or Graves, must be fast as hell! Whoever this Drakon is must have had a feat in which his speed was measurable. All Wonder Woman did was throw a kick. - So I guess Superman is big on dodging now? - Yeah, Hal bumrushed her. If Wonder Woman were so fast, she would have countered. - Street Level may be a bit too harsh but she has exhibited nothing impressive in 11 issues. I mean the best I can think of is her picking up a truck. If it weren't for JL everybody would think WW had been seriously nerfed.
True she only kicked him but again, either the claims of his reaction speed are seriously inflated, or she at least has comparable speed to his. Drakon caught some arrows shot by Green Arrow and made some vague claim to super speed. Yet in battles, we consider his speed legitimate. Besides all that, Superman already knew she was willing to fight her friends.
LOL Actually yes. Superman usually dodges shots from opponents that have the ability to hurt him.
Near as I can tell, the only thing GL did was try to contain a fleeing WW. She then wrecked his house.
"Impressive" is subjective. She has however displayed clearly super human feats, whether you like it or not. None of those super human feats seemed to strain her either.
@Erik: - Let me elaborate. You can't base her speed on one instance where there is no quantifiable time to even back it up. All she did was kick Superman. Stuff like that happens all the time. If all it takes is an unchallenged attack to be just as fast as Superman or whoever than I guess Anguish, or Graves, must be fast as hell! Whoever this Drakon is must have had a feat in which his speed was measurable. All Wonder Woman did was throw a kick. - So I guess Superman is big on dodging now? - Yeah, Hal bumrushed her. If Wonder Woman were so fast, she would have countered. - Street Level may be a bit too harsh but she has exhibited nothing impressive in 11 issues. I mean the best I can think of is her picking up a truck. If it weren't for JL everybody would think WW had been seriously nerfed.
True she only kicked him but again, either the claims of his reaction speed are seriously inflated, or she at least has comparable speed to his. Drakon caught some arrows shot by Green Arrow and made some vague claim to super speed. Yet in battles, we consider his speed legitimate. Besides all that, Superman already knew she was willing to fight her friends.
LOL Actually yes. Superman usually dodges shots from opponents that have the ability to hurt him.
Near as I can tell, the only thing GL did was try to contain a fleeing WW. She then wrecked his house.
"Impressive" is subjective. She has however displayed clearly super human feats, whether you like it or not. None of those super human feats seemed to strain her either.
Wonder Woman has never shown to be simply street level in the new run.
Sure, she could blitz everyone, even the centaurs at the early issues, but that makes for poor story. Wonder Woman is actually famous for fighting only as hard as she needs to. She'll never run circles around an inferior opponent just to beat him unnecessarily quickly. At her core, she is a warrior, and she enjoys the fight.
Also, Manhunter is not part of the Justice League. He is part of Stormwatch.
This is a N52 thread.
I meant as in physical strength. I got confused with overall power. And with the versions of the characters we were using as well. Apologies about that.
Also, Manhunter is not part of the Justice League. He is part of Stormwatch.
This is a N52 thread.
I meant as in physical strength. I got confused with overall power. And with the versions of the characters we were using as well. Apologies about that.
Oh, by the way, I've figured out the bracer ordeal:
I was going under the assumption that they were not the Bracelets of Victory, because she hasn't been wearing them consistently throughout the series, but they are.
The BoV were Athena's aegis shield, forged from the skin of the goat that weaned Zeus and was indestructable. Until it broke. Then it was forged into the BoV and given to the champion of the Amazons, Wonder Woman.
Taking them off...makes to sense to give her a power up. But, using bracers forged from Athena's shield to fight her, it does make sense that they would magically handicap her somehow against their original owner.
@Erik: - Let me elaborate. You can't base her speed on one instance where there is no quantifiable time to even back it up. All she did was kick Superman. Stuff like that happens all the time. If all it takes is an unchallenged attack to be just as fast as Superman or whoever than I guess Anguish, or Graves, must be fast as hell! Whoever this Drakon is must have had a feat in which his speed was measurable. All Wonder Woman did was throw a kick. - So I guess Superman is big on dodging now? - Yeah, Hal bumrushed her. If Wonder Woman were so fast, she would have countered. - Street Level may be a bit too harsh but she has exhibited nothing impressive in 11 issues. I mean the best I can think of is her picking up a truck. If it weren't for JL everybody would think WW had been seriously nerfed.
True she only kicked him but again, either the claims of his reaction speed are seriously inflated, or she at least has comparable speed to his. Drakon caught some arrows shot by Green Arrow and made some vague claim to super speed. Yet in battles, we consider his speed legitimate. Besides all that, Superman already knew she was willing to fight her friends.
LOL Actually yes. Superman usually dodges shots from opponents that have the ability to hurt him.
Near as I can tell, the only thing GL did was try to contain a fleeing WW. She then wrecked his house.
"Impressive" is subjective. She has however displayed clearly super human feats, whether you like it or not. None of those super human feats seemed to strain her either.
How? She has no comparable speed or reaction feats to back that up. I don't see why him not dodging has to mean that he wasn't able to. That makes no sense. If that's the case, every time a character is tagged then the person who attacked must at least have comparable speed, and that's just not true. And no, Superman doesn't dodge all that much. It's one of the main gripes of his powerset. "If he's supposed to be so fast, why is always getting hit?" I mean, Anguish was strong enough to make his head spin yet he didn't dodge her at all. Also, i'm not arguing that Green Lantern put up a fight at all. I'm just saying that if you consider that kick to be a feat of speed/reaction then Green Lanterns bumrush must be too. And 'impressive' is only subjective in terms of opinion, not comparison as in i'm comparing her solo appearances against Supermans. And, like I said, they aren't impressive. If you give any newcomer Action Comics/Superman and Wonder Woman who do you think that person is going to peg as the (vastly) superior?
-____- I will always see Superman as third strongest in the Justice League. ( Flash, and Martian Manhunter are stronger ), Wonder Woman is not stronger than him, jezzz.
Do you mean third most powerful? In terms of actual physical strength, Supes definitely beats Flash in that department and just edges out over MM in that regard.
Define what you mean by strongest.
Also, Manhunter is not part of the Justice League. He is part of Stormwatch.
How? She has no comparable speed or reaction feats to back that up. I don't see why him not dodging has to mean that he wasn't able to. That makes no sense. If that's the case, every time a character is tagged then the person who attacked must at least have comparable speed, and that's just not true. And no, Superman doesn't dodge all that much. It's one of the main gripes of his powerset. "If he's supposed to be so fast, why is always getting hit?" I mean, Anguish was strong enough to make his head spin yet he didn't dodge her at all. Also, i'm not arguing that Green Lantern put up a fight at all. I'm just saying that if you consider that kick to be a feat of speed/reaction then Green Lanterns bumrush must be too. And 'impressive' is only subjective in terms of opinion, not comparison as in i'm comparing her solo appearances against Supermans. And, like I said, they aren't impressive. If you give any newcomer Action Comics/Superman and Wonder Woman who do you think that person is going to peg as the (vastly) superior?
Who has ever made a habit of taking a kick to the face just for the lulz? I think in your attempt to pooh pooh the feat, you are unintentionally painting Superman as a masochistic retard.
See there you go again, using subjective terms like "much" to your advantage. Superman does dodge much, just not most.
Opinions are irrelevant and you are trying to treat an absence of evidence as evidence of absence. A foolish strategy. It is by definition an argument made out of ignorance. You would not want to be pegged as such an individual, no? When WW has needed to perform super human feats, she does so. And it just so happens that we now have new evidence of an entirely new tier of power for WW due to this recent need.
How? She has no comparable speed or reaction feats to back that up. I don't see why him not dodging has to mean that he wasn't able to. That makes no sense. If that's the case, every time a character is tagged then the person who attacked must at least have comparable speed, and that's just not true. And no, Superman doesn't dodge all that much. It's one of the main gripes of his powerset. "If he's supposed to be so fast, why is always getting hit?" I mean, Anguish was strong enough to make his head spin yet he didn't dodge her at all. Also, i'm not arguing that Green Lantern put up a fight at all. I'm just saying that if you consider that kick to be a feat of speed/reaction then Green Lanterns bumrush must be too. And 'impressive' is only subjective in terms of opinion, not comparison as in i'm comparing her solo appearances against Supermans. And, like I said, they aren't impressive. If you give any newcomer Action Comics/Superman and Wonder Woman who do you think that person is going to peg as the (vastly) superior?
Who has ever made a habit of taking a kick to the face just for the lulz? I think in your attempt to pooh pooh the feat, you are unintentionally painting Superman as a masochistic retard.
See there you go again, using subjective terms like "much" to your advantage. Superman does dodge much, just not most.
Opinions are irrelevant and you are trying to treat an absence of evidence as evidence of absence. A foolish strategy. It is by definition an argument made out of ignorance. You would not want to be pegged as such an individual, no? When WW has needed to perform super human feats, she does so. And it just so happens that we now have new evidence of an entirely new tier of power for WW due to this recent need.
You can try to switch this back on me, discredit my post or whatever all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that you have no concrete basis to say that Superman couldn't have dodged that kick. Would you like it better if I say "Superman statistically takes more attacks than he does dodge?" And really, 'much' isn't subjective at all, especially in this case since its not based on my opinion but on fact. Superman does not dodge 'much'. Is this the Boondocks? My argument is made out of ignorance? Huh? I am basing this argument on what has occurred in the past 11 issues. You can't tell me that WW did not seem to be on a much lower level of power in her solo book than Superman, or even herself in JL. So i'm saying, logically, it is safer to assume, based on what we've seen, based on how many people have wondered why WW seemed weaker in her book, that the gauntlets restricted her power lower than it was in JL and that when she removed them she returned to her previous power.
You can try to switch this back on me, discredit my post or whatever all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that you have no concrete basis to say that Superman couldn't have dodged that kick. Would you like it better if I say "Superman statistically takes more attacks than he does dodge?" And really, 'much' isn't subjective at all, especially in this case since its not based on my opinion but on fact. Superman does not dodge 'much'. Is this the Boondocks? My argument is made out of ignorance? Huh? I am basing this argument on what has occurred in the past 11 issues. You can't tell me that WW did not seem to be on a much lower level of power in her solo book than Superman, or even herself in JL. So i'm saying, logically, it is safer to assume, based on what we've seen, based on how many people have wondered why WW seemed weaker in her book, that the gauntlets restricted her power lower than it was in JL and that when she removed them she returned to her previous power.
That is like saying there is no concrete proof that Wolverine could dodge bullets. He has only dodged them a few times in his entire career. Or that there is no concrete proof that New 52 Superman is capable of hitting New 52 Flash. I am sure you see the hilarity of such statements. We know these statements are not true because we have evidence proving otherwise... unless we are now going to assume Flash just wanted to get hit by Superman and Superman just wanted to get hit by Wonder Woman.
Yes I would actually prefer that.
You saying subjective terms are not subjective is silly.
Yes you are basing your argument directly on your ignorance.
I am saying that Wonder Woman has not had to perform many feats at all thus far in her book. But when she has needed to, it turns out they are comparable to say... struggling to lift a loading truck like a certain caped hero. ;)
So Wonder Woman performs at near Superman levels (as indicated in her JL showings) with her bracelets, yet you maintain the bracelets being removed only boosts her to her stats in JL... even though she wears her bracelets when she is performing her feats in... JL? Wow.
Let me clear this up for you since it seems you are struggling. Wonder Woman performs at near Superman levels in JL with the bracelets on as shown by her comparable feats. In her solo title, we see that the bracelets significantly limit her power and when she removes them, she gains access to a power that is significantly higher than when she wears them.
I do not want to get into the tangled web of kicking Superman when he was not expecting it. Even if we assume that Superman has pathetic reaction time, it does not change the fact that her kick caused him significant pain that he himself said was going to affect him the entire day. If he was expecting it, if he was not expecting it, both are irrelevant in what I am trying to show. If he were expecting it, it does not mean it would not have hurt him. Just like you admitted, she is strong enough to hurt him even with the bracelets. Now once she took them off, it was heavily implied that she was markedly stronger and faster, considering Artemis could do nothing to stop WW's onslaught when before, Artemis seemed at least slightly faster than WW. So we know strength and speed are considerably hampered by the bracelets.
I do not understand why her durability would not also be hampered by wearing the bracelets. They are not merely weighted. If they were, she would have been able to still kick Artemis with equal speed and strength. They have to be sapping her ability magically. Besides that, with the bracelets off, it seemed clear that she was able to access an entirely new level of power. It makes no sense to me that this new "god mode" would boost all her other stats with the exception of durability and I know that does not make sense to you either.
As for matching Superman's reaction speed feats, that kick should be sufficient. If Superman's reaction speed eclipses hers so much, there is absolutely no way her kick would have connected or even surprised him. But it did both. The only logical conclusion we can reach based on that is that her speed was comparable. Either that or when Superman tried to stop her, he must have zoned out listening to someone's ipod on the other side of the planet.
In those scans without her bracelets, she was also not in combat. Do you have scans of her taking off her bracelets during combat without accessing this god mode? Even if the access to this god mode is a choice, the bracelets would have to still be limiting that access, otherwise she would have used it during her first fight with Artemis. The stakes were still the same in both encounters, only WW had time to remove the bracelets in the second fight.
Granted, she may not take the bracelets off for a fight with Superman. In fact, she did not take them off when she actually beat on the JL but then again, she was not overpowered to the point that she needed to before she came to listen to reason. She was still a handful for the JL with them on.
Firstly, I went through those 12 issues again; when exactly does Artemis tool Wonder Woman? The only fight I can find between the two is this:
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This is hardly tooling, neither one has any kind of displayed advantage. Certainly not Artemis. At best you could claim that they were somewhat evenly matched based on these three scans. Apart from Artemis claiming that Wonder Woman can't beat her, there's no actual indication that Diana can't very well eventually beat her without needing to remove the bracelets. Removing the bracelets might have made it easier, but there's no indication that she necessarily HAD to remove the bracelets to win. Doing so just turned a previously even match into a stomp in her favor.
Artemis did not display any major speed in this confrontation that placed her above Diana. The only thing she demonstrated was an even measure of strength while they were grappling at the bottom of the page. That was the only stat she displayed in that entire fight, and so it's pretty much the only stat that we can compare against the second fight with God Mode Diana. Where is there any evidence of a rise in speed? Diana grappled with Artemis in the first fight, in the second fight her ability to strike Artemis over and over again without retaliation could easily be attributed to a change in strategy; instead of grappling with her this time around she simply struck her again and again without allowing her any time to recover. There is honestly no evidence of a rise in anything other than strength over here........and it is not unprecedented for one stat to rise while the others remain stationary. For example, removing Orion's Mother Box will cause his strength to rise sharply, but his speed and durability won't change much.
I do not consider that kick sufficient. Superman was not trying to fight her, he did not expect that he would have to fight her. Under those same two stipulations (unwillingness to fight and not expecting a fight), both Batman......
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........and Supergirl......
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.........have landed hits similar to the surprise kick Wonder Woman landed on him. And yet it is not possible to claim that Venom'd up Batman and noob Supergirl have reaction speed comparable to Superman based on these one-off incidents. We have already seen that Superman outclasses Supergirl horrendously; in the same issue where she punches him away like that, he casually chumps her by nearly flinging her out of orbit with one hand, and later on she was stomped by a Superman doppelganger who was then in turn stomped by the real Superman. And yet if we take that sucker punch as proof that she is actually comparable to him in terms of speed, it heavily contradicts their other showings where she's clearly shown to not be comparable to him in terms of anything. On the same page where Superman says that he'd be feeling Diana's kick for a while, he also says that his intention was to help. Not fight. She caught him by surprise in a non-combat situation, do you have scans of her displaying reaction speed comparable to him or anyone like him in a situation where her opponent was actually interested in a fight or even aware that his opponent meant to fight him? I don't think you can simply dismiss the role that surprise and intent played in that incident, nor does simply landing a hit on someone mean you have reaction speed comparable to them. Flash's reaction feats in his own title far exceed Superman's, but he was still eventually tagged by Superman because he underestimated him. Plus this line of reasoning lends itself to all sorts of implausible scenarios; I could conclude that Hulk has reaction speed on par with the Silver Surfer because he once managed to surprise Surfer and whack him with a tree, even though all their other showings paint a very different picture of their speeds. Or that Deathstroke has reaction speed on par with the Flash because he once tripped a running Wally up with his staff when Wally wasn't looking.
Why would combat affect her entering that god mode state? Is there any indication that is the case? Are her bracelets somehow sentient and capable of understanding when she's in combat?
Oh silly me. I mistakenly remembered her fight with Apollo as the first fight with Artemis. Seems I have inadvertently crippled my own argument. Tell you what, since I hold your opinion in high regard on all matters and since it seems you have read all the New 52 WW and JL issues, tell me your honest opinion on the thread using all current feats.
@greenteaforme: Umm, I think you misread the page where she unleashes her true/real power, when she removes her bracelets Artemis asks her why she's removing her best defense against a god. Wonder Woman replies...my defense? they were YOUR DEFENSE! Azzarello loves puns and connecting dialogues as you must know, she didn't mean "my cuffs are yours" as in they belong to you. That would make no sense and you have to pay attention to the context, the dialogues that came before that sentence, and the words bolded by the writer. So WW actually meant that my bracelets were actually protecting you more than you think they were protecting me, because they restrain me from revealing my real power and owning you. :-) They don't belong to Artemis, the "works because they're being used against owner theory" does not apply.
@CitizenBane: The kicking Superman feat was being used to prove that Superman does not way outclass her in reaction speed, WW is quite fast, and she can hurt Superman. She has enough strength to hurt him despite his amazing durability. Superman said that he would feel the pain from that kick for the whole day. And it wasn't a sneak attack or sucker punch. You don't tell someone you're gonna punch them. And if Superman really does have amazing reaction speed, he would've seen it coming, OH and wait a second. It's not nearly the same as Supergirl sucker punching him. Superman was actually physically restraining her, or trying to. He held her sword, he would've expected SOME resistance. It wasn't completely out of the blue, or unexpected. When I try to choke you, I won't expect you to stand still like a kitten. Hell, even a kitten would try to slash me. It's quite simple. Superman was not just standing there thinking about life. He was applying effort holding her sword, directly facing her and would've blocked her kick. ESPECIALLY given his astounding reaction speed and what not that is being thrown around by his supporters.. But he didn't. there was NO trickery, sneaking, or anything involved. Superman had it coming. If he didn't know, he's too stupid to last in a fight with her. But whatever the point is, it still hurt and made him bleed. As for Superman horrendously outclassing Supergirl, in Supergirl 12 it is established that Supergirl may actually be more powerful than Superman, as analysed by Superman himself (because she was exposed directly to the Sun's rays; her pod was orbiting the Sun before her arrival on Earth...but that's another topic)
Oh silly me. I mistakenly remembered her fight with Apollo as the first fight with Artemis.
I thought that might be the case.
Tell you what, since I hold your opinion in high regard on all matters and since it seems you have read all the New 52 WW and JL issues, tell me your honest opinion on the thread using all current feats.
I think Superman takes a clear majority at the moment because of Diana's dearth of durability feats.
@Batcrow said:
@CitizenBane: The kicking Superman feat was being used to prove that Superman does not way outclass her in reaction speed, WW is quite fast, and she can hurt Superman. She has enough strength to hurt him despite his amazing durability. Superman said that he would feel the pain from that kick for the whole day. And it wasn't a sneak attack or sucker punch. You don't tell someone you're gonna punch them. And if Superman really does have amazing reaction speed, he would've seen it coming, OH and wait a second. It's not nearly the same as Supergirl sucker punching him. Superman was actually physically restraining her, or trying to. He held her sword, he would've expected SOME resistance. It wasn't completely out of the blue, or unexpected. When I try to choke you, I won't expect you to stand still like a kitten. Hell, even a kitten would try to slash me. It's quite simple. Superman was not just standing there thinking about life. He was applying effort holding her sword, directly facing her and would've blocked her kick. ESPECIALLY given his astounding reaction speed and what not that is being thrown around by his supporters.. But he didn't. there was NO trickery, sneaking, or anything involved. Superman had it coming. If he didn't know, he's too stupid to last in a fight with her. But whatever the point is, it still hurt and made him bleed.
This is nonsense. He was not actually trying to fight her. He caught hold of her sword and asked her to stop, and he later tells her that his intention was to help. He did not want to fight her, he wanted her to calm down. He was not directly facing her either, he was behind her. I've already talked about most of this so I'm not interested in going over it again, just read my prior comments. Wonder Woman still has no durability feats that match Superman's, even if we assume that her speed is comparable to his.
As for Superman horrendously outclassing Supergirl, in Supergirl 12 it is established that Supergirl may actually be more powerful than Superman, as analysed by Superman himself (because she was exposed directly to the Sun's rays; her pod was orbiting the Sun before her arrival on Earth...but that's another topic)
Please. The same ludicrous claims that Supergirl was more powerful than Superman were going around pre-Flashpoint as well, and yet even there Superman chumped Supergirl with one punch when they fought. I don't care about the technicalities of why Supergirl may possibly be stronger than Superman; I'm only interested in the actual demonstrations or lack thereof of this alleged superiority. And that does not exist here. It's been shown twice so far that Supergirl is inferior to Superman. The ass-kicking she received from the Superman doppelganger says it all, especially since the doppelganger was then quickly stomped by the real Superman.
Oh silly me. I mistakenly remembered her fight with Apollo as the first fight with Artemis.
I thought that might be the case.
Tell you what, since I hold your opinion in high regard on all matters and since it seems you have read all the New 52 WW and JL issues, tell me your honest opinion on the thread using all current feats.
I think Superman takes a clear majority at the moment because of Diana's dearth of durability feats.
Oh silly me. I mistakenly remembered her fight with Apollo as the first fight with Artemis.
I thought that might be the case.
Tell you what, since I hold your opinion in high regard on all matters and since it seems you have read all the New 52 WW and JL issues, tell me your honest opinion on the thread using all current feats.
I think Superman takes a clear majority at the moment because of Diana's dearth of durability feats.
Well then for the moment, "so say we all."
The cover of Justice League #14 is Superman vs Wonder Woman and Batman, so there might be some answers there.
The cover of Justice League #14 is Superman vs Wonder Woman and Batman, so there might be some answers there.
How would you feel if in that possible fight, she matches Superman nearly blow for blow with the bracelets on? That would seem definitive for me but I would hear your opinion.
The cover of Justice League #14 is Superman vs Wonder Woman and Batman, so there might be some answers there.
It superman were fighting WW in issue 14, he wouldn't be himself.He had cheetah spots on him so Cheetah converted superman into a cheetah which makes him bad I guess.
The cover of Justice League #14 is Superman vs Wonder Woman and Batman, so there might be some answers there.
How would you feel if in that possible fight, she matches Superman nearly blow for blow with the bracelets on? That would seem definitive for me but I would hear your opinion.
It would be definitive for me as well. I want to see how her durability holds up to his punches and heat vision most of all.
@moywar700 said:
@CitizenBane said:
The cover of Justice League #14 is Superman vs Wonder Woman and Batman, so there might be some answers there.
It superman were fighting WW in issue 14, he wouldn't be himself.He had cheetah spots on him so Cheetah converted superman into a cheetah which makes him bad I guess.
It would be similar to when Circe took control of Supes and made him fight Diana, he had Doomsday's bone protrusions there.
The cover of Justice League #14 is Superman vs Wonder Woman and Batman, so there might be some answers there.
How would you feel if in that possible fight, she matches Superman nearly blow for blow with the bracelets on? That would seem definitive for me but I would hear your opinion.
It would be definitive for me as well. I want to see how her durability holds up to his punches and heat vision most of all.
You would have gotten it if I had not screwed myself right out of the gate lol. Which would have brought me no pleasure considering I do not really care for New 52 WW... at least her solo title anyway.
@greenteaforme: Umm, I think you misread the page where she unleashes her true/real power, when she removes her bracelets Artemis asks her why she's removing her best defense against a god. Wonder Woman replies...my defense? they were YOUR DEFENSE! Azzarello loves puns and connecting dialogues as you must know, she didn't mean "my cuffs are yours" as in they belong to you. That would make no sense and you have to pay attention to the context, the dialogues that came before that sentence, and the words bolded by the writer. So WW actually meant that my bracelets were actually protecting you more than you think they were protecting me, because they restrain me from revealing my real power and owning you. :-) They don't belong to Artemis, the "works because they're being used against owner theory" does not apply.
That's not what she said at all.
I think YOU misread, or simply don't remember, the panel.
She literally said "My cuffs were yours." And they were. They were forged from Artemis's old aegis shield.
@CitizenBane: Ok, but it still wasn't as completely out of the blue as you seem to be painting it as. He was talking to her, restraining her. Of course she'd do something. He held her sword, he could've held her foot if he was that much faster than her. He was determined to stop her and make her listen, not lost in his own world such taht resistance from an angry target would come as a surprise and a "sucker-punch" to him. So you can't compare it to someone sneaking a cheap shot at him, come on. Moreover, whether they show Supergirl beat Superman or not, they've still established a reason for her superiority in this continuity, so it's their fault if they follow it or not.
And yea Superman's durability? You're saying its high and it surely must be, but not high enough as to stop Wonder Woman's hits from hurting or drawing his blood. Wonder Woman's durability SHOULD be high but we've mostly seen her block hits or flat out deflect them instead of trying to take them to the chest (reaction speed?)
@greenteaforme: Umm, this is not the only forum I visit, it's unanimous that Wonder Woman was calling the bracelets Artemis' defense. One person WAS making the same claim as you but it was explained in much the same way as I explained it to you. Look at the words bolded. After Artemis says " You strip yourself of your best defense...." Diana says MY defense? my cuffs were YOURS!! Do you honestly think that the real intent of that was to say: No they're not my defense. They were actually capping my strength and inhibiting my true powers because they are forged by you and you are using them to reduce my power. If so, why would Artemis be surprised that Wonder Woman is taking her bracelets off? Artemis seems to think that they're actually Wonder Woman's best defense.
@CitizenBane: Ok, but it still wasn't as completely out of the blue as you seem to be painting it as. He was talking to her, restraining her. Of course she'd do something. He held her sword, he could've held her foot if he was that much faster than her. He was determined to stop her and make her listen, not lost in his own world such taht resistance from an angry target would come as a surprise and a "sucker-punch" to him. So you can't compare it to someone sneaking a cheap shot at him, come on. Moreover, whether they show Supergirl beat Superman or not, they've still established a reason for her superiority in this continuity, so it's their fault if they follow it or not.
And yea Superman's durability? You're saying its high and it surely must be, but not high enough as to stop Wonder Woman's hits from hurting or drawing his blood. Wonder Woman's durability SHOULD be high but we've mostly seen her block hits or flat out deflect them instead of trying to take them to the chest (reaction speed?)
@greenteaforme: Umm, this is not the only forum I visit, it's unanimous that Wonder Woman was calling the bracelets Artemis' defense. One person WAS making the same claim as you but it was explained in much the same way as I explained it to you. Look at the words bolded. After Artemis says " You strip yourself of your best defense...." Diana says MY defense? my cuffs were YOURS!! Do you honestly think that the real intent of that was to say: No they're not my defense. They were actually capping my strength and inhibiting my true powers because they are forged by you and you are using them to reduce my power. If so, why would Artemis be surprised that Wonder Woman is taking her bracelets off? Artemis seems to think that they're actually Wonder Woman's best defense.
@CitizenBane: Ok, but it still wasn't as completely out of the blue as you seem to be painting it as. He was talking to her, restraining her. Of course she'd do something.
Was he expecting her to kick him away? Was he expecting Batman to punch him away? Was he expecting Supergirl to punch him away? He didn't enter that situation to get involved in any kind of combat. In his own words, he just wanted to help. His intention was most likely to calm her down enough to convey that, he wasn't trying to beat some sense into her.
He held her sword, he could've held her foot if he was that much faster than her.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Did he want to restrain her that much? Did he even want to fight her considering there were cameras everywhere? Did he want to restrain her like that in front of everyone?
Moreover, whether they show Supergirl beat Superman or not, they've still established a reason for her superiority in this continuity, so it's their fault if they follow it or not.
Oh, they established reasons for Supergirl's alleged superiority even in the previous continuity. First they said it was because her body metabolizes sunlight "more efficiently" than his does, then they said it was because she'd been exposed to sunlight for longer than he was in his rocket, then they said it was because she never learned how to hold back the way he did all through his childhood. When they actually fought, Supergirl actually flaunted the fact that everyone said she was stronger, faster and more powerful in every way.........and then Superman put her down with one punch and told her he could stop her anytime he felt like it. If you're expecting that to change in the new universe, don't hold your breath.
@CitizenBane: Ok, but it still wasn't as completely out of the blue as you seem to be painting it as. He was talking to her, restraining her. Of course she'd do something.
Was he expecting her to kick him away? Was he expecting Batman to punch him away? Was he expecting Supergirl to punch him away? He didn't enter that situation to get involved in any kind of combat. In his own words, he just wanted to help. His intention was most likely to calm her down enough to convey that, he wasn't trying to beat some sense into her.
He held her sword, he could've held her foot if he was that much faster than her.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Did he want to restrain her that much? Did he even want to fight her considering there were cameras everywhere? Did he want to restrain her like that in front of everyone?
Moreover, whether they show Supergirl beat Superman or not, they've still established a reason for her superiority in this continuity, so it's their fault if they follow it or not.
Oh, they established reasons for Supergirl's alleged superiority even in the previous continuity. First they said it was because her body metabolizes sunlight "more efficiently" than his does, then they said it was because she'd been exposed to sunlight for longer than he was in his rocket, then they said it was because she never learned how to hold back the way he did all through his childhood. When they actually fought, Supergirl actually flaunted the fact that everyone said she was stronger, faster and more powerful in every way.........and then Superman put her down with one punch and told her he could stop her anytime he felt like it. If you're expecting that to change in the new universe, don't hold your breath.
I do agree that DC would NEVER put Supergirl above Superman. They've always said things like that to explain Supergirl's performance. Basically saying Supergirl is going at 100% and Superman is steadily taking care of things at, say, 30% of his max.
Also, Wonder Woman has ALWAYS been above Supergirl in terms of...well...everything. Wonder Woman was created to be the most powerful female DC warrior. I doubt they'll change that now. I don't see Supergirl outperforming Supes or WM in N52, either.
Oh, they established reasons for Supergirl's alleged superiority even in the previous continuity. First they said it was because her body metabolizes sunlight "more efficiently" than his does, then they said it was because she'd been exposed to sunlight for longer than he was in his rocket, then they said it was because she never learned how to hold back the way he did all through his childhood. When they actually fought, Supergirl actually flaunted the fact that everyone said she was stronger, faster and more powerful in every way.........and then Superman put her down with one punch and told her he could stop her anytime he felt like it. If you're expecting that to change in the new universe, don't hold your breath.
Exactly. These claims that lack a foothold are amusing. Superman is known and been shown to regularly hold back a large majority of his power due to his nature and upbringing in both Pre and New 52. Kara lacks that control even currently and is clearly evident in when she and Superman briefly tangled where she was throwing everything she had at him and he shrugged it off and continually attempted to calm her down. She even got smacked around by the Superman doppelganger that seemingly wasn't holding back much and even boasted that his heat vision would lack any effect on her and yet, she screamed in pain:
As for the infamous Wonder Woman kick, is it really that hard to digest that Superman had zero intention in engaging into full blown combat with her? His stance basically tells all. He wasn't standing at the ready nor was he knocking the sword out of her hands. He was casually situated in a side-stance to evidently show he had little interest in fighting anyone.
whether they show Supergirl beat Superman or not, they've still established a reason for her superiority in this continuity, so it's their fault if they follow it or not.
@CitizenBane: Ok, but it still wasn't as completely out of the blue as you seem to be painting it as. He was talking to her, restraining her. Of course she'd do something.
Was he expecting her to kick him away? Was he expecting Batman to punch him away? Was he expecting Supergirl to punch him away? He didn't enter that situation to get involved in any kind of combat. In his own words, he just wanted to help. His intention was most likely to calm her down enough to convey that, he wasn't trying to beat some sense into her.
He held her sword, he could've held her foot if he was that much faster than her.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Did he want to restrain her that much? Did he even want to fight her considering there were cameras everywhere? Did he want to restrain her like that in front of everyone?
Moreover, whether they show Supergirl beat Superman or not, they've still established a reason for her superiority in this continuity, so it's their fault if they follow it or not.
Oh, they established reasons for Supergirl's alleged superiority even in the previous continuity. First they said it was because her body metabolizes sunlight "more efficiently" than his does, then they said it was because she'd been exposed to sunlight for longer than he was in his rocket, then they said it was because she never learned how to hold back the way he did all through his childhood. When they actually fought, Supergirl actually flaunted the fact that everyone said she was stronger, faster and more powerful in every way.........and then Superman put her down with one punch and told her he could stop her anytime he felt like it. If you're expecting that to change in the new universe, don't hold your breath.
How would I know if he was expecting it or not. Any sane, normal person would, though. You can clearly see that she's pissed, she just beat the crap out of Green Lantern, if I'm gonna try to hold her still isn't she gonna get even angrier? He wasn't pleading or crying. He was determined. He stopped her sword and demanded her to stop. So clearly Batman/Supergirl did not hit him in the same scenario/situation. It was different. Again, this wasn't a sneak attack by ANY MEANS, this was something clearly expected. Wanting to fight or not has nothing to do with blocking her blows. Even if Superman was bloodlusted, you'd say, oh he was bloodlusted, he wasn't thinking straight, oh Superman always takes hits directly, hes not a dodging kinda person, oh this, oh that. If you don't wanna accept it, you won't. And I don't get the coulda shoulda woulda thing you said, yes Superman SHOULDA but he didn't. That's what I said.
@CitizenBane: Ok, but it still wasn't as completely out of the blue as you seem to be painting it as. He was talking to her, restraining her. Of course she'd do something.
Was he expecting her to kick him away? Was he expecting Batman to punch him away? Was he expecting Supergirl to punch him away? He didn't enter that situation to get involved in any kind of combat. In his own words, he just wanted to help. His intention was most likely to calm her down enough to convey that, he wasn't trying to beat some sense into her.
He held her sword, he could've held her foot if he was that much faster than her.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Did he want to restrain her that much? Did he even want to fight her considering there were cameras everywhere? Did he want to restrain her like that in front of everyone?
Moreover, whether they show Supergirl beat Superman or not, they've still established a reason for her superiority in this continuity, so it's their fault if they follow it or not.
Oh, they established reasons for Supergirl's alleged superiority even in the previous continuity. First they said it was because her body metabolizes sunlight "more efficiently" than his does, then they said it was because she'd been exposed to sunlight for longer than he was in his rocket, then they said it was because she never learned how to hold back the way he did all through his childhood. When they actually fought, Supergirl actually flaunted the fact that everyone said she was stronger, faster and more powerful in every way.........and then Superman put her down with one punch and told her he could stop her anytime he felt like it. If you're expecting that to change in the new universe, don't hold your breath.
How would I know if he was expecting it or not. Any sane, normal person would, though. You can clearly see that she's pissed, she just beat the crap out of Green Lantern, if I'm gonna try to hold her still isn't she gonna get even angrier? He wasn't pleading or crying. He was determined. He stopped her sword and demanded her to stop. So clearly Batman/Supergirl did not hit him in the same scenario/situation. It was different. Again, this wasn't a sneak attack by ANY MEANS, this was something clearly expected. Wanting to fight or not has nothing to do with blocking her blows. Even if Superman was bloodlusted, you'd say, oh he was bloodlusted, he wasn't thinking straight, oh Superman always takes hits directly, hes not a dodging kinda person, oh this, oh that. If you don't wanna accept it, you won't. And I don't get the coulda shoulda woulda thing you said, yes Superman SHOULDA but he didn't. That's what I said.
Would they? Would they assume that she's just going to lash out at anyone who comes within a certain range of her, or would they assume that she lashed out at Green Lantern because he actually confronted her and blocked her path and did something that pissed her off? He doesn't have to plead or cry, he asked her to stop. He stopped her sword and that's as clear a sign as you can get from that page that he wasn't trying to fight her, he was trying to disarm her in an attempt to defuse the situation. Batman and Supergirl's situations were practically identical. Especially Kara's. In Supergirl's case, she falls to the ground and he tries to help her up, knowing fully well that she's angry with him, but since he doesn't expect a fight she punches him away. Let's not get into what I want to accept and what not or whether answers would remain identical if Superman was bloodlusted or not, none of that is relevant. Your last sentence seems to contradict basically everything you've said so far. You've been saying that Superman's not much faster than Wonder Woman because if he was, he would have caught hold of her foot or something like that. I said that he most likely chose not to, irrespective of whether he could have or not. You're saying that he didn't do so even though he should have. So are you agreeing or disagreeing or what?
Oh, and I forgot to address this:
And yea Superman's durability? You're saying its high and it surely must be, but not high enough as to stop Wonder Woman's hits from hurting or drawing his blood. Wonder Woman's durability SHOULD be high but we've mostly seen her block hits or flat out deflect them instead of trying to take them to the chest (reaction speed?)
.....what? I've already said at least three times on this thread that Wonder Woman's strength is good enough to hurt him. I never denied that because it's as clear as day. But Wonder Woman has no durability showings that match his own, at all. She has no showings that suggest she'll last long against his punches, or against his heat vision. None at all. The only real display of her durability so far was against Apollo's punches, and she fared poorly there. Whether or not her durability SHOULD be good enough is not a point of interest for me right now. When she inevitably gets durability showings that are comparable to his or to people on his level, then we can talk.
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