New 52: Darkseid vs Invictus

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

42758

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#1  Edited By Zetsu-San
No Caption Provided

VS

No Caption Provided

Rules:

  • Victory by Death or KO
  • Random Encounter
  • Standard Levels
  • Fight takes place on a planet the size of Jupiter

Mood Setter:

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

If Invictus has his platform next to him he pretty easily clears. He actually planet-busted and he scales above Larfleeze. Not much else to say.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

42758

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

Avatar image for cosmoman
cosmoman

5796

Forum Posts

10037

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4  Edited By cosmoman
@zetsu-san said:

@cosmoman Thoughts?

Thanks for the tag~

OT: Spite battle. N52 Darkseid has universal feats back to back, Invictus was a Larfleeze level threat max. Outside of scaling, he's planet level max.

Darkseid in N52:

  • Fought a Universal destroyer toe to toe, confirmed in Canon:
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
  • Survived a collapse that cracked Space-time on a universal scale:
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
  • N52 Darkseid dying energy shook the multiverse, disconnecting whole pantheons worth of power from their hosts. Tangible effect on a Multiversal scale:
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#6  Edited By Chimeroid

@professorrespect: lol at "scales above Larfleeze" random New Gods have effortlessly embarrassed Larfleeze.

One arrow destroyed a whole bunch of his constructs and took his ring.

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#7  Edited By Chimeroid
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

@professorrespect: lol at "scales above Larfleeze" random New Gods have effortlessly embarrassed Larfleeze.

One arrow destroyed a whole bunch of his constructs and took his ring

This same New God essentially used a trick arrow to knock the ring out of him? How is this even worth mentioning in terms of power comparisons when the actual reference is essentially a cheap shot and then them running away before fighting. It's not like Shadowfall did much better when she was involved in the New Gods/Lantern battles, no? They lost that, further proving that it was nothing but trickery.

Compared to Invictus just outright scrapping and beating up Larfleeze? Seems a lot more legit I'd say.

Avatar image for famousroman
Famousroman

1569

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Invictus seemingly stomped Larfleeze who just yeeted him away out of fear, to be clear.

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

Invictus seemingly stomped Larfleeze who just yeeted him away out of fear, to be clear.

yea

Kyle also said he (Invictus) could've beaten them easily had it not been for them convincing him to leave the first time etc

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#11  Edited By Chimeroid

@chimeroid said:

@professorrespect: lol at "scales above Larfleeze" random New Gods have effortlessly embarrassed Larfleeze.

One arrow destroyed a whole bunch of his constructs and took his ring

This same New God essentially used a trick arrow to knock the ring out of him? How is this even worth mentioning in terms of power comparisons when the actual reference is essentially a cheap shot and then them running away before fighting. It's not like Shadowfall did much better when she was involved in the New Gods/Lantern battles, no? They lost that, further proving that it was nothing but trickery.

Compared to Invictus just outright scrapping and beating up Larfleeze? Seems a lot more legit I'd say.

I kind of feel like you ignored both the feat and what i said. She destroyed a bunch of his constructs with a single arrow.

No Caption Provided

And Shadowfall is not a high-tier New God.

And also, they decidedly did not lose vs GLs.

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

#13  Edited By ProfessorRespect
@chimeroid said:
@professorrespect said:
@chimeroid said:

@professorrespect: lol at "scales above Larfleeze" random New Gods have effortlessly embarrassed Larfleeze.

One arrow destroyed a whole bunch of his constructs and took his ring

This same New God essentially used a trick arrow to knock the ring out of him? How is this even worth mentioning in terms of power comparisons when the actual reference is essentially a cheap shot and then them running away before fighting. It's not like Shadowfall did much better when she was involved in the New Gods/Lantern battles, no? They lost that, further proving that it was nothing but trickery.

Compared to Invictus just outright scrapping and beating up Larfleeze? Seems a lot more legit I'd say.

I kind of feel like you ignored both the feat and what i said. She destroyed a bunch of his constructs with a single arrow

...and? You do realise they're just constructs, right? They don't get destroyed or killed. Half of the danger is the fact that Larfleeze has these guys trapped inside his Lantern so they're always essentially living and able to be used.

And Shadowfall is not a high-tier New God

Ok? She barely appears in anything bar this one singular arc so I'd assume so. Again, she didn't do anything to Larfleeze but take his ring with a trick arrow; there is nothing about that which suggests his stats aren't worthwhile.

And also, they decidedly did not lose vs GLs

They decidedly did, their Boom Tubes were hacked, their capital was ravaged to the point of collapse, and every single New God on that capital was gonna die on that island (including Highfather, who was helpless) to the grand total of "one hundred Teratons" per Hal's ring providing the data.

How much is this, exactly? Well it was about as much as the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs...so like multi-continental at best? That's the New Gods I'm supposed to think are better than the guy who busted a planet? Ok?

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@professorrespect: You are being disingenuous. The Lanterns were never an issue for the Gods. The issue was in the Source Wall Titans invading the New Genesis. The powers that have nothing to do with Lar or any of the Lanterns.

And i KNOW that you know this. So, if you are saying what you are saying, you are plainly just out here lying to make the New Gods seem bad.

..and? You do realise they're just constructs, right? They don't get destroyed or killed.

Those contracts are literally Lar's powerset. Yeah, he can create more, but the issue is that the arrow effortlessly cuts through the constructs.

In this same story even the entity of Parallax was easily subdued by NG technology. And, again, i know you know this. But sure, lowball it as much as you want.

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@professorrespect: As far as the "Teraton" statement goes, i don't really care for those. We've known for decades that writers don't actually do any math when they throw around those statements.

Avatar image for supreme101
Supreme101

9302

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

Darkseid

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

@professorrespect: You are being disingenuous. The Lanterns were never an issue for the Gods

Idk about that, they were going after them in such a specific order for a reason. As soon as it became a back and forth battle they started taking losses, ESPECIALLY after the Boom Tubes were taken over and they didn't have the advantage of hiding on New Genesis.

The issue was in the Source Wall Titans invading the New Genesis. The powers that have nothing to do with Lar or any of the Lanterns

The Source Wall Titans were only one part of the attack though?

And i KNOW that you know this. So, if you are saying what you are saying, you are plainly just out here lying to make the New Gods seem bad

Yeah that's not hard to do when the comic is saying they'd all die to a multi-continental attack, Highfather included.

..and? You do realise they're just constructs, right? They don't get destroyed or killed.

Those contracts are literally Lar's powerset. Yeah, he can create more, but the issue is that the arrow effortlessly cuts through the constructs

It's one part of his powerset out of numerous other uses of his Lantern powers. His constructs being passed through by a object does not equate to some sort of power level.

In this same story even the entity of Parallax was easily subdued by NG technology

And tell me, how exactly does this equate to power levels at all? What are the great feats involved with N52 Parallax without any hosts to use?

@professorrespect: As far as the "Teraton" statement goes, i don't really care for those. We've known for decades that writers don't actually do any math when they throw around those statements.

I mean you don't have to care, but this is the same story you're then using to construct your argument. It's your choice if cherry-picking one aspect to use as legit while ignoring others seems like a reasonable and logical way to do so.

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@professorrespect:

Idk about that, they were going after them in such a specific order for a reason.

Nope, they just got an order to pick up rings of each color from Highfather, and they did. It wasn't even particularly planned, they just went out and did their job without a care in the world.

In the "second visit" Sinestro even had prep time given that he knew Bekka was coming for the Yellow Lanterns. And she just roflstomped his entire corps.

As soon as it became a back and forth battle they started taking losses, ESPECIALLY after the Boom Tubes were taken over and they didn't have the advantage of hiding on New Genesis.

I don't think you and I have read the same Godhead story. Because there were no significant losses coming from Lanterns. Only and exclusively the fodderest of New Gods. "advantage of hiding" are you for real? They fought the Lanterns completely fairly multiple times, and it was a massacre. Shadowfall caugth Stewart and his entire team in a net, when the Lanterns had proper prep time. Orion and his Gods stomped Jordan and half of the GL corps. Bekka went to basically solo the Yellows.

The Source Wall Titans were only one part of the attack though?

They were the only effective part of the attack though. The only other one who got a DUB was John Stewart vs Uggha after Malhedron betrayed the New Gods.

Yeah that's not hard to do when the comic is saying they'd all die to a multi-continental attack, Highfather included.

The comic never said Highfather would have died.

It's one part of his powerset out of numerous other uses of his Lantern powers. His constructs being passed through by a object does not equate to some sort of power level.

They weren't being passed through, they were being shredded. Sure, he has more, and if he used more of his powers, maybe he would have a better result. BUt he got humbled real quick there.

And tell me, how exactly does this equate to power levels at all? What are the great feats involved with N52 Parallax without any hosts to use?

Sinestro was Parallax's host in this story. But either way, Parallax is one of the entities. However you spin it, scales at least to Larfleeze, probably above. Or, is there a reason we believe Ophidian should be more powerful than Parallax?

I mean you don't have to care, but this is the same story you're then using to construct your argument. It's your choice if cherry-picking one aspect to use as legit while ignoring others seems like a reasonable and logical way to do so.

Because one part is relevant to the story and truly follows through on the message of the story, while the other is a throwaway comment from a ring that the author didn't even think about before writing. Furthermore, the ring openly stated it knows nothing about New Gods. The "loss of life: Total" could just be false information.

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

#19  Edited By ProfessorRespect
@chimeroid said:

@professorrespect:

Idk about that, they were going after them in such a specific order for a reason.

Nope, they just got an order to pick up rings of each color from Highfather, and they did. It wasn't even particularly planned, they just went out and did their job without a care in the world

"without a care" mans be specifically running away from nearly all of their encounters unless they could've got

In the "second visit" Sinestro even had prep time given that he knew Bekka was coming for the Yellow Lanterns. And she just roflstomped his entire corps

"entire corps"? She killed a singular fodder Corp member and took the ring.

As soon as it became a back and forth battle they started taking losses, ESPECIALLY after the Boom Tubes were taken over and they didn't have the advantage of hiding on New Genesis.

I don't think you and I have read the same Godhead story. Because there were no significant losses coming from Lanterns. Only and exclusively the fodderest of New Gods. "advantage of hiding" are you for real? They fought the Lanterns completely fairly multiple times, and it was a massacre

It's funny you say this and the New Gods themselves stated that the Lanterns provided "significant resistance" and they weren't particularly keen on finishing the job given they moved to trying to attack Earth next.

The Source Wall Titans were only one part of the attack though?

They were the only effective part of the attack though. The only other one who got a DUB was John Stewart vs Uggha after Malhedron betrayed the New Gods

That's not true either. Sinestro took over their Boom Tubes, Gardner and co took the rings back, etc etc

Yeah that's not hard to do when the comic is saying they'd all die to a multi-continental attack, Highfather included.

The comic never said Highfather would have died

Hal's ring not only estimated the amount of force generated, but that loss of life would be "total" meaning everyone in the blast would've died....including Highfather given he was on there at the time. That's your guy you're backing here btw.

It's one part of his powerset out of numerous other uses of his Lantern powers. His constructs being passed through by a object does not equate to some sort of power level.

Yeah he got "humbled" by being ambushed by a trick arrow and then them teleporting right out to avoid a fight lol. Great showing there of....a trick arrow? Accuracy? idk.

And tell me, how exactly does this equate to power levels at all? What are the great feats involved with N52 Parallax without any hosts to use?

Sinestro was Parallax's host in this story But either way, Parallax is one of the entities. However you spin it, scales at least to Larfleeze, probably above

How? The Entities in Post Crisis when hostless weren't anything special to talk about mostly. Them in N52? Even less stuff to talk about, essentially none of that is interesting. You can't just scale them above certain characters out of pure name-value.

I mean you don't have to care, but this is the same story you're then using to construct your argument. It's your choice if cherry-picking one aspect to use as legit while ignoring others seems like a reasonable and logical way to do so.

Because one part is relevant to the story and truly follows through on the message of the story, while the other is a throwaway comment from a ring that the author didn't even think about before writing

How is it a "throwaway comment"? The point was that the New Gods were going to die and the Lanterns saved them at the last minute to essentially bookend the story. It's still, regardless, cherrypicking, overt or not.

Furthermore, the ring openly stated it knows nothing about New Gods

It knew about the blast AND the result to know it would've killed them. Had it not, it would've easily provided a "inconclusive" result. It didn't.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

42758

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@professorrespect: As far as the "Teraton" statement goes, i don't really care for those. We've known for decades that writers don't actually do any math when they throw around those statements.

Tbf, the fact that the stated impact force lines up with the Chicxulub impact, does kind of make it sound purposeful.

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#21  Edited By Chimeroid

@professorrespect:

"without a care" mans be specifically running away from nearly all of their encounters unless they could've got

Are you trolling me right now? "running away" has a very specific meaning. And by no means was that what happened.

No Caption Provided

The only one who "ran" was Lightray, and that is due to his personality. Everyone else handled business and left. I mean Malhedron didn't even fight, he just asked nicely.

Oh, and again, they didn't care is a quote from Jordan.

No Caption Provided

"entire corps"? She killed a singular fodder Corp member and took the ring.

You would definitely do well to stop lying. Because this is just brazen at this point. Firstly, she didn't kill Arkillo, she beat him and took his ring. Secondly, i specifically said "second visit"

She killed 6 yellows in this image alone.
She killed 6 yellows in this image alone.

When she did the above.

It's funny you say this and the New Gods themselves stated that the Lanterns provided "significant resistance" and they weren't particularly keen on finishing the job given they moved to trying to attack Earth next.

The entire story was about how they didn't care about Lanterns and were solely focused on Darkseid. As far as Highfather was concerned, they weren't attacking Earth, they were weaponizing it to beat Darkseid once and forever. His idea was to turn everyone on Earth into New Gods so they can stomp Darkseid for him.

That's not true either. Sinestro took over their Boom Tubes, Gardner and co took the rings back, etc etc

Malhedron decided to help them. Sinestro didn't take over shit. Gardner took the rings from Hyalt by vomiting on him and running away. Those are miniscule successes. Those weren't "oh lanterns were beating gods" those were "oh, we stole a few rings and ran".

Hal's ring not only estimated the amount of force generated, but that loss of life would be "total" meaning everyone in the blast would've died....including Highfather given he was on there at the time. That's your guy you're backing here btw.

And my argument is that Hals' ring's estimate was shitty. Simple as that. But either way, if we use that lowball to scale down the New Gods, all of the Lanterns (including Larfleeze, and by extention, including Invictus) scale down with them. You aren't changing the fact that all lanterns, including Lar, were completely powerless before the Gods.

Even Kyle Rayner was weaker than Highfather. But Highfather didn't know how to control the LE. So he gave it back to Kyle.

Yeah he got "humbled" by being ambushed by a trick arrow and then them teleporting right out to avoid a fight lol. Great showing there of....a trick arrow? Accuracy? idk.

Do you know the meaning of the word "ambush"? He was literally the one to attack her.

He wanted
He wanted "her" he attacked, and she tried to negotiate while destroying his constructs. When he refused, she took his ring.

In a pure 1v1, Larfleeze attacked first, and got demolished. Suddenly, it was an ambush? Please, stop lying. If you keep doing that i will just start making up shit myself, and it won't be very productive.

How? The Entities in Post Crisis when hostless weren't anything special to talk about mostly. Them in N52? Even less stuff to talk about, essentially none of that is interesting. You can't just scale them above certain characters out of pure name-value.

Parallax wasn't hostless. He had a host in this story. And yes, i can scale the entity to the lantern it powers. Do you have any proof that the Orange entity is stronger than the Yellow Entity?

How is it a "throwaway comment"? The point was that the New Gods were going to die and the Lanterns saved them at the last minute to essentially bookend the story. It's still, regardless, cherrypicking, overt or not.

For sure, the civilians were going to die, but why would Orion die, for example? He was flying the entire scene, why would Lightray? Would all the Lanterns die as well? I mean, "loss of life: Total" would implicate that as well. It's not cherrypicking, it's just a stupid fucking statement from Hal's ring. Nothing more or less than that.

It knew about the blast AND the result to know it would've killed them. Had it not, it would've easily provided a "inconclusive" result. It didn't

I'd say it was probably capable of calculating the impact force of the fall of the New Genesis. And the impact force makes sense. The "Loss of life" is something the wring could not possibly calculate given that we saw that the rings knew nothing about New Gods.

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

@professorrespect:

"without a care" mans be specifically running away from nearly all of their encounters unless they could've got

Are you trolling me right now? "running away" has a very specific meaning. And by no means was that what happened

The only one who "ran" was Lightray, and that is due to his personality. Everyone else handled business and left. I mean Malhedron didn't even fight, he just asked nicely

"handled business" they essentially were just there to steal the rings and that was it, meaning a lot of their encounters amounted to beating up no-names and stealing their rings.

"entire corps"? She killed a singular fodder Corp member and took the ring.

You would definitely do well to stop lying. Because this is just brazen at this point. Firstly, she didn't kill Arkillo, she beat him and took his ring. Secondly, i specifically said "second visit

Did I say she did? The first time it was literally just a smash and grab on some no-name. Hell even this is just no name Lanterns being killed lol. How can we possibly scale that to anything impressive?

It's funny you say this and the New Gods themselves stated that the Lanterns provided "significant resistance" and they weren't particularly keen on finishing the job given they moved to trying to attack Earth next.

The entire story was about how they didn't care about Lanterns and were solely focused on Darkseid

.....yet even the New Gods were concerned by their resistance? They "didn't" care yet cared at the same time?

Highfather was purely focused on Darkseid given he wanted to build an army with the Life Equation to essentially finish the war, that resulted in him basically being Seid at the end of the day with his acts. The other New Gods were more concerned about the Lanterns given they hadn't been neutralised completely, and they were right by that because multiple instances have them attacking and winning against said Gods.

That's not true either. Sinestro took over their Boom Tubes, Gardner and co took the rings back, etc etc

Malhedron decided to help them. Sinestro didn't take over shit

Sinestro successfully taking over the Boom Tubes by baiting Highfather was indeed him taking over "shit" etc.

Gardner took the rings from Hyalt by vomiting on him and running away

Like firing a trick arrow and running away? How's this not incredibly impressive then?

Hal's ring not only estimated the amount of force generated, but that loss of life would be "total" meaning everyone in the blast would've died....including Highfather given he was on there at the time. That's your guy you're backing here btw.

And my argument is that Hals' ring's estimate was shitty

You don't have any info suggesting as such given the rings by now had detailed exposure to the New Gods in technology and scope. They would've died to a multi-continental blast, including Highfather and by extension his dark equal.

Even Kyle Rayner was weaker than Highfather

....and? Rayner's Life Equation wasn't exactly the most reliable in combat. You have multiple instances of him fumbling with it.

Yeah he got "humbled" by being ambushed by a trick arrow and then them teleporting right out to avoid a fight lol. Great showing there of....a trick arrow? Accuracy? idk.

Do you know the meaning of the word "ambush"? He was literally the one to attack her

Having the intent to fight and then the other person surprising you with a trick arrow and bouncing is indeed an ambush by the definition.

In a pure 1v1, Larfleeze attacked first, and got demolished

"demolished" is now apparently stealing a ring and leaving immediately after? I guess Gardner demolishing Hyalt is also right vernacular then.

How? The Entities in Post Crisis when hostless weren't anything special to talk about mostly. Them in N52? Even less stuff to talk about, essentially none of that is interesting. You can't just scale them above certain characters out of pure name-value.

Parallax wasn't hostless

He wasn't bound to anyone. Sinestro carried him around but Parallax wasn't controlling him.

And yes, i can scale the entity to the lantern it powers

You can try, but the entity itself actually needs to have something to scale itself rather than just whatever. I mean unless you're saying Sinestro > Larfleeze (which is just incorrect by any definition of such) this doesn't really seem productive.

How is it a "throwaway comment"? The point was that the New Gods were going to die and the Lanterns saved them at the last minute to essentially bookend the story. It's still, regardless, cherrypicking, overt or not.

For sure, the civilians were going to die, but why would Orion die, for example? He was flying the entire scene

How is him flying meaning he's going to escape a multi-continental blast? Total is total, simple as that.

why would Lightray? Would all the Lanterns die as well? I mean, "loss of life: Total" would implicate that as well

Given Sinestro wanted to watch, I doubt that. Unless he just wanted to die for lols

It knew about the blast AND the result to know it would've killed them. Had it not, it would've easily provided a "inconclusive" result. It didn't

I'd say it was probably capable of calculating the impact force of the fall of the New Genesis

And the impact force makes sense. The "Loss of life" is something the wring could not possibly calculate given that we saw that the rings knew nothing about New God

The rings knew plenty by the time that instance appeared.

And, again, if the writer wanted to suggest they'd be fine they could've easily put a "inconclusive" result. They did not, therefore they wanted the New Gods in danger from what we see and how they were acting during the event.

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@professorrespect:

"handled business" they essentially were just there to steal the rings and that was it, meaning a lot of their encounters amounted to beating up no-names and stealing their rings.

Yes, no-names such as Hal Jordan, Larfleeze, Arquillo. Nobodies, really.

Did I say she did? The first time it was literally just a smash and grab on some no-name. Hell even this is just no name Lanterns being killed lol. How can we possibly scale that to anything impressive?

You literally just quoted yourself saying that she did. Like, this is peak comedy. Should i print screen your statement?

No Caption Provided

Here you go.

As for the rest. She was easily stomping through a bunch of lanterns and survived their combined suicide bombing attack without a scratch. How you want to scale it is your issue. but you clearly lied about what happened so far. So you are losing credibility at an astounding rate already.

.....yet even the New Gods were concerned by their resistance? They "didn't" care yet cared at the same time?

The New Gods as a whole were unconcerned, certain individuals were curious/concerned. Simple as that. They clearly didn't care as they left the boom tube opened for Hal and his GL Corps to follow if they wanted to, and they were all like "nah man, that would be suicide". I am literally posting scans from the story proving that they didn't care.

Highfather was purely focused on Darkseid given he wanted to build an army with the Life Equation to essentially finish the war, that resulted in him basically being Seid at the end of the day with his acts. The other New Gods were more concerned about the Lanterns given they hadn't been neutralised completely, and they were right by that because multiple instances have them attacking and winning against said Gods.

Not gonna lie, i am not a big fan of the Godhead story, but i did read it. In fact, i've just reread it. And what you wrote here is blatantly false. (irrelevant to this discussion, Highfather was acting like that because his empathy was separated from him and packed into Infinity Man)

It's literally simple as that. You are either misremembering or lying. Lanterns were underpowered in comparison to the Gods for the entirety of the story. But, speaking on this topic, who exactly was "more concerned" about the lanterns?

Sinestro successfully taking over the Boom Tubes by baiting Highfather was indeed him taking over "shit" etc.

But he didn't take over the Boom Tubes. He rused Despotelis to reprogram ONE boom tube's location. There's a huge difference between the two statements. And it's phenomenal that you are using that as the biggest accomplishment of the Lanterns vs Gods. They retargeted the end location of a single tunnel that the Gods opened. A tunnel that any of them can open at will.

Like firing a trick arrow and running away? How's this not incredibly impressive then?

Because i never said Hyalt is impressive. You are the one that said "Since he scales above Lar, he must be able to beat Darkseid". Which is honestly, borderline special needs of you.

Having the intent to fight and then the other person surprising you with a trick arrow and bouncing is indeed an ambush by the definition.

I mean, you have to be kidding by now. First of all. She told him EXACTLY what she was going to do. Secondly, please post the definition of the word "ambush" here. Just to prove how stupid your argument is.

"demolished" is now apparently stealing a ring and leaving immediately after? I guess Gardner demolishing Hyalt is also right vernacular then.

Here you go lying again. Gardner didn't steal the rings from Hyalt's person. Hyalt just took some of the rings and put them in a robot. Gardner took the rings from that Robot. Not from Hyalt. Then Gardner and Baz ran away. But please, bear this type of bullshit in mind the next time you try claiming that you aren't biased in threads.

Let me give you a breakdown of the situation for both scenes

Shadowfall vs Larfleeze

1. She booms in

2. He attacks her

3. She asks for his ring and destroys his constructs

4. He refuses to give her the ring

5. She takes the ring

6. She leaves

Dominant victory from Shadowfall

Gardner vs Hyalt.

1. Baz was stalling Hyalt while Gardner stole the rings

2. Gardner used two rings to vomit on Hyalt.

3. Hyalt was unharmed

4. Gardner and Baz throw time-delayed bombs on Hyalt's workshop so Hyalt needs to protect his inventions rather than chase them

5. They run away.

Victory for Lanterns. But no way to compare Gardner and Hyalt.

How is him flying meaning he's going to escape a multi-continental blast? Total is total, simple as that.

By virtue of him not being in the blast.

Given Sinestro wanted to watch, I doubt that. Unless he just wanted to die for lols

Oh, so suddenly you also seem to believe that "loss of life: Total" didn't actually encompass literally everyone in the scene?

The rings knew plenty by the time that instance appeared.

And, again, if the writer wanted to suggest they'd be fine they could've easily put a "inconclusive" result. They did not, therefore they wanted the New Gods in danger from what we see and how they were acting during the event.

So now we're talking about writer intent? To me it's clear that they meant the lives of the citizens of New Genesis. I think by "intent" neither side's combatants were included in the loss of life estimation given that Lanterns need to protect civilians, even if the civilians are on the opposing side.

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

#24  Edited By ProfessorRespect
@chimeroid said:

@professorrespect:

"handled business" they essentially were just there to steal the rings and that was it, meaning a lot of their encounters amounted to beating up no-names and stealing their rings.

Yes, no-names such as Hal Jordan, Larfleeze, Arquillo

How many of these ring-stealing encounters were them being beat up? A lot of these were smash and grab operations. The fact that you include Larfleeze despite suffering zero physical damage is extremely silly.

Did I say she did? The first time it was literally just a smash and grab on some no-name. Hell even this is just no name Lanterns being killed lol. How can we possibly scale that to anything impressive?

You literally just quoted yourself saying that she did. Like, this is peak comedy. Should i print screen your statement

This was in reference to this:

"she didn't kill Arkillo, she beat him and took his ring."

You say this like I mentioned him by name or that he died? I never said as such.

You also said that she " roflstomped his entire corps" which apparently amounted to killing some fodder from what I've seen? You haven't even tried to make some sort of larger statement about it because there's not really much to say bar her killing no-names.

.....yet even the New Gods were concerned by their resistance? They "didn't" care yet cared at the same time?

The New Gods as a whole were unconcerned

....no they weren't? Multiple members mentioned that the Lanterns were providing "serious resistance" and they were equally concerned about Earth despite the Life Equation being at hand. This was to the point of questioning Metron himself, so no, they weren't "unconcerned" at all.

Highfather was purely focused on Darkseid given he wanted to build an army with the Life Equation to essentially finish the war, that resulted in him basically being Seid at the end of the day with his acts. The other New Gods were more concerned about the Lanterns given they hadn't been neutralised completely, and they were right by that because multiple instances have them attacking and winning against said Gods.

Not gonna lie, i am not a big fan of the Godhead story, but i did read it. In fact, i've just reread it. And what you wrote here is blatantly false

It's so "false" that even Metron was being questioned as to why he was underestimating Earth's potential resistance efforts using the Lanterns as a example? Highfather was the only one absolutely confident and that was purely because he had the Life Equation at hand so they didn't need to worry about collecting rings anymore.

Sinestro successfully taking over the Boom Tubes by baiting Highfather was indeed him taking over "shit" etc.

But he didn't take over the Boom Tubes. He rused Despotelis to reprogram ONE boom tube's location

....and that in turn allowed them to teleport in and bypass Metron's own command of the Tube. It also meant that the New Gods couldn't use it to escape New Genesis falling to the ground, which is why you had Orion and co flying with people to evacuate them rather than just using those. It also meant that Sinestro could use them again to leave New Genesis with his Corp when he wanted, which is also shown.

Like firing a trick arrow and running away? How's this not incredibly impressive then?

Because i never said Hyalt is impressive

It's the fact that you regard essentially this as somehow incredibly damaging for Larfleeze despite this and the Hyalt instance being pretty much the same in terms of zero actual tangible damage provided.

You are the one that said "Since he scales above Lar, he must be able to beat Darkseid". Which is honestly, borderline special needs of you

Ignoring the frankly distasteful insults (which is a shame really, you shouldn't be this triggered over a simple debate) my argument was that Larfleeze could also beat this version of Seid in a fight alongside the fact that Seid's only planet bust on record was one that was presumably retconned and was a shared feat, essentially.

Having the intent to fight and then the other person surprising you with a trick arrow and bouncing is indeed an ambush by the definition.

I mean, you have to be kidding by now. First of all. She told him EXACTLY what she was going to do

"I'm going to fire a trick arrow to steal your ring and leave"? I don't think she said that, no?

Secondly, please post the definition of the word "ambush" here

An ambush is a surprise attack. Surprising your opponent with a trick arrow out of nowhere before leaving is indeed an ambush, given he was surprised by the attack provided.

"demolished" is now apparently stealing a ring and leaving immediately after? I guess Gardner demolishing Hyalt is also right vernacular then.

Gardner didn't steal the rings from Hyalt's person. Hyalt just took some of the rings and put them in a robot

And? If your definition of being wrecked is a random surprise attack and then leaving right afterwards then Gardner should have "demolished" Hyalt then given he took out the robot and then the rings within it before then knocking him down.

Shadowfall vs Larfleeze

1. She booms in

2. He attacks her

3. She asks for his ring and destroys his constructs

4. He refuses to give her the ring

5. She takes the ring

6. She leaves

You splitting these into multiple parts doesn't actually change anything. She didn't destroy any of his constructs, she fired an arrow to knock the ring off and then left with it right after. That's not a indication of any sort of stat-advantage.

Gardner vs Hyalt.

1. Baz was stalling Hyalt while Gardner stole the rings

2. Gardner used two rings to vomit on Hyalt.

3. Hyalt was unharmed

4. Gardner and Baz throw time-delayed bombs on Hyalt's workshop so Hyalt needs to protect his inventions rather than chase them

5. They run away.

Victory for Lanterns. But no way to compare Gardner and Hyalt

Larfleeze was similarly unharmed, only he wasn't knocked over unlike Hyalt and burnt with the rage vomit. Somehow being able to steal something = tremendous victory.

How is him flying meaning he's going to escape a multi-continental blast? Total is total, simple as that.

By virtue of him not being in the blast

How would've not been in the blast? The New Gods didn't have Boom Tubes given they were carrying people away the old fashioned way and Orion was one of the main guys involved. Had he stayed, he would've died as per the rest involved in the New Gen blast.

Given Sinestro wanted to watch, I doubt that. Unless he just wanted to die for lols

Oh, so suddenly you also seem to believe that "loss of life: Total"

Again, was Sinestro suicidal then?

The rings knew plenty by the time that instance appeared.

And, again, if the writer wanted to suggest they'd be fine they could've easily put a "inconclusive" result. They did not, therefore they wanted the New Gods in danger from what we see and how they were acting during the event.

So now we're talking about writer intent? To me it's clear that they meant the lives of the citizens of New Genesis

Clearly they didn't, otherwise they would've said as such. It just said "total" in regard to loss of life, which includes Highfather given he was on New Gen.

Avatar image for ecstaticgrace
ecstaticgrace

12100

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Darkseid

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@professorrespect:

How many of these ring-stealing encounters were them being beat up? A lot of these were smash and grab operations. The fact that you include Larfleeze despite suffering zero physical damage is extremely silly.

You know Lar better than i do, after taking his ring, if she decided to come back and kill him after that scene, would he have won?

You say this like I mentioned him by name or that he died? I never said as such.

You specifically said she only killed one lantern.

You also said that she " roflstomped his entire corps" which apparently amounted to killing some fodder from what I've seen? You haven't even tried to make some sort of larger statement about it because there's not really much to say bar her killing no-names.

I mean, that's what the scene was. Yeah, they were no-names. But we are just establishing Gods over Lanterns, and Sinestro was specifically told he cannot beat Bekka by his Seer.

Ignoring the frankly distasteful insults (which is a shame really, you shouldn't be this triggered over a simple debate) my argument was that Larfleeze could also beat this version of Seid in a fight alongside the fact that Seid's only planet bust on record was one that was presumably retconned and was a shared feat, essentially.

I apologize, i sometimes forget which site i'm on, in most of my environments, the "R" word is perfectly fine to use during discussions even as an insult. It's the energy of sending a message for "Friend Group A" to "Friend Group B". I genuinely hope i didn't actually make you feel bad.

"I'm going to fire a trick arrow to steal your ring and leave"? I don't think she said that, no?

She did say what she came to do - Take an orange ring. So he knew exactly what the rules of engagement were.

An ambush is a surprise attack. Surprising your opponent with a trick arrow out of nowhere before leaving is indeed an ambush, given he was surprised by the attack provided.

Being surprised by an attack doesn't mean it is a surprise attack. It just means that you misjudged the situation.

DictionaryDefinitions from Oxford Languages · Learn moreambush/ˈambʊʃ/noun

  1. a surprise attack by people lying in wait in a concealed position."seven members of a patrol were killed in an ambush"Similar:surprise attacktrapsnarepitfalllureambuscade

verb 2. make a surprise attack on (someone) from a concealed position."they were ambushed and taken prisoner by the enemy"

And? If your definition of being wrecked is a random surprise attack and then leaving right afterwards then Gardner should have "demolished" Hyalt then given he took out the robot and then the rings within it before then knocking him down.

If he took them from Hyalt, i would have agreed. But he didn't. He took them from a robot. Unless you want to claim that Robot scales to Hyalt 1-1?

You splitting these into multiple parts doesn't actually change anything. She didn't destroy any of his constructs, she fired an arrow to knock the ring off and then left with it right after. That's not a indication of any sort of stat-advantage.

I might be misinterpreting the feat. But we literally do see her arrow destroy a bunch of constructs before ripping the ring off of his finger.

Larfleeze was similarly unharmed, only he wasn't knocked over unlike Hyalt and burnt with the rage vomit. Somehow being able to steal something = tremendous victory.

If i steal it from your hand while you're trying to fight me. And if that "something" is your sole source of power. Then yes. It is a tremendous victory.

If that something is a trinket you put in a robot and you used stealth and diversion to literally sneak behind and steal it. Then no. It's not. Simple as that.

Again, was Sinestro suicidal then?

You are saying that. Not me. I am saying that the loss of life statement didn't apply to any of the combatants. I don't think White Lantern KR would die from that, i don't believe Hal Jordan would die from that. I don't believe Orion would die from that, and i don't believe Highfather would die from that.

....and that in turn allowed them to teleport in and bypass Metron's own command of the Tube. It also meant that the New Gods couldn't use it to escape New Genesis falling to the ground, which is why you had Orion and co flying with people to evacuate them rather than just using those. It also meant that Sinestro could use them again to leave New Genesis with his Corp when he wanted, which is also shown.

They co-opted a single tube. And yes, it was Metron's, but there is no indication that the Gods were unable to open new tubes. I don't think anyone tried. IF you wish to prove your point, feel free. You must have a scan of it, to make such a bold claim.

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

@professorrespect:

How many of these ring-stealing encounters were them being beat up? A lot of these were smash and grab operations. The fact that you include Larfleeze despite suffering zero physical damage is extremely silly.

You know Lar better than i do, after taking his ring, if she decided to come back and kill him after that scene, would he have won

Given he had no ring and therefore no powers? I think the result is pretty obvious. I don't see how this equates to, like, power levels though. It's like using Superman being weakened by Kryptonite and acting like that makes him worse as a result.

You say this like I mentioned him by name or that he died? I never said as such.

You specifically said she only killed one lantern

I probably had that confused then because I recall her only handling one to take the ring etc

You also said that she " roflstomped his entire corps" which apparently amounted to killing some fodder from what I've seen? You haven't even tried to make some sort of larger statement about it because there's not really much to say bar her killing no-names.

I mean, that's what the scene was. Yeah, they were no-names. But we are just establishing Gods over Lanterns, and Sinestro was specifically told he cannot beat Bekka by his Seer

I'm not too sure about that given her feats were so limited.

Ignoring the frankly distasteful insults (which is a shame really, you shouldn't be this triggered over a simple debate) my argument was that Larfleeze could also beat this version of Seid in a fight alongside the fact that Seid's only planet bust on record was one that was presumably retconned and was a shared feat, essentially.

I apologize, i sometimes forget which site i'm on, in most of my environments, the "R" word is perfectly fine to use during discussions even as an insult. It's the energy of sending a message for "Friend Group A" to "Friend Group B". I genuinely hope i didn't actually make you feel bad

No prob

"I'm going to fire a trick arrow to steal your ring and leave"? I don't think she said that, no?

She did say what she came to do - Take an orange ring. So he knew exactly what the rules of engagement were

He clearly didn't if he was startled by the trick arrow. Just because someone tells you they are going to do something doesn't mean you have automatic awareness of them doing such a thing in a way you didn't expect.

An ambush is a surprise attack. Surprising your opponent with a trick arrow out of nowhere before leaving is indeed an ambush, given he was surprised by the attack provided.

Being surprised by an attack doesn't mean it is a surprise attack. It just means that you misjudged the situation

....so he was surprised, then? If he was surprised by the unexpected and unannounced weapon used by a individual he has no knowledge on, I think, I would hope, that would account for a attack that is also a surprise? Even your Oxford definition starts with "a surprise attack" on both of the definitions applied.

And? If your definition of being wrecked is a random surprise attack and then leaving right afterwards then Gardner should have "demolished" Hyalt then given he took out the robot and then the rings within it before then knocking him down.

If he took them from Hyalt, i would have agreed. But he didn't. He took them from a robot. Unless you want to claim that Robot scales to Hyalt 1-1

The fact that Gardner did both is way more of a impressive feat than stealing a ring and then leaving lol.

You splitting these into multiple parts doesn't actually change anything. She didn't destroy any of his constructs, she fired an arrow to knock the ring off and then left with it right after. That's not a indication of any sort of stat-advantage.

I might be misinterpreting the feat. But we literally do see her arrow destroy a bunch of constructs before ripping the ring off of his finger

You see it go through the constructs....which like, as I've said, they're constructs, they don't have any physical tangiblity to them unless they're attacking people. You can bash them around all day and they aren't gonna change as long as they're still stuck in the ring.

Larfleeze was similarly unharmed, only he wasn't knocked over unlike Hyalt and burnt with the rage vomit. Somehow being able to steal something = tremendous victory.

If i steal it from your hand while you're trying to fight me. And if that "something" is your sole source of power. Then yes. It is a tremendous victory

Larfleeze wasn't trying to fight her though, he was just letting his constructs do the work while yelling in the background. It wasn't even a actual 1 v 1 fight. It was just a smash and grab where she avoided fighting him altogether.

Given her little net thingy she uses later gets bypassed by Violet energy to boot (which is a lot less powerful than Orange) it's safe to assume she wouldn't be able to actually fight him.

Again, was Sinestro suicidal then?

You are saying that. Not me

I'm not, I'm asking you given he wanted to stay. If your statement is correct that the Lanterns would die as well, why didn't he leave? Why didn't Hal or any of the rest at least consider that? Why didn't their rings notify them of such like they usually do when their life is at threat?

I am saying that the loss of life statement didn't apply to any of the combatants

How? If that was the case then it would've specified as such.

....and that in turn allowed them to teleport in and bypass Metron's own command of the Tube. It also meant that the New Gods couldn't use it to escape New Genesis falling to the ground, which is why you had Orion and co flying with people to evacuate them rather than just using those. It also meant that Sinestro could use them again to leave New Genesis with his Corp when he wanted, which is also shown.

They co-opted a single tube. And yes, it was Metron's, but there is no indication that the Gods were unable to open new tubes. I don't think anyone tried. IF you wish to prove your point, feel free. You must have a scan of it, to make such a bold claim

Given their entire city was falling to the ground and risked killing everyone there, are you seriously suggesting that they WOULDN'T use their instant teleportation to escape danger? Why would they have Orion slowly carrying a couple of people at a time instead? Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@professorrespect:

Given he had no ring and therefore no powers? I think the result is pretty obvious. I don't see how this equates to, like, power levels though. It's like using Superman being weakened by Kryptonite and acting like that makes him worse as a result.

I get what you're saying. You're saying that Lar didn't get to use his powers to the highest degree in the fight. But that's just a notch against him. It doesn't negate that Gods walked over lanterns in this story.

He clearly didn't if he was startled by the trick arrow. Just because someone tells you they are going to do something doesn't mean you have automatic awareness of them doing such a thing in a way you didn't expect.

That's fair. Doesn't make it an ambush or even a dirty trick. It's just Lar not being good at fighting.

The fact that Gardner did both is way more of a impressive feat than stealing a ring and then leaving lol.

But he didn't. Because he escaped only thanks to Hyalt deciding he has to save his experiments rather than chase them. That's specifically what Gardner did to run away. Still, i do write it up as a win for him.

Given her little net thingy she uses later gets bypassed by Violet energy to boot (which is a lot less powerful than Orange) it's safe to assume she wouldn't be able to actually fight him.

The same net thingy resisted white energy, which is a lot more powerful than Orange. I'd say that the issue was the nature of the power, not the amount. Also, seems like you are assuming the net is the highest end of the power level for her.

Why didn't Hal or any of the rest at least consider that? Why didn't their rings notify them of such like they usually do when their life is at threat?

Yeah, i'm exactly saying that the fall of Supertown on New Genesis would not have killed the Lanterns. As i don't think it would kill any of the big gods. It would kill a whole lot of kids and civilians.

Given their entire city was falling to the ground and risked killing everyone there, are you seriously suggesting that they WOULDN'T use their instant teleportation to escape danger? Why would they have Orion slowly carrying a couple of people at a time instead? Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Pick any story ever written and i will find a bunch of "doesn't seem reasonable" moments in it.

Anyway, we should go back to the topic at hand.

Let's say i failed to scale Shadowfall above Larfleeze, but we have definitely succeeded in scaling all named New Gods above other individual Lanterns. As not a single Lantern succeeded in soloing a God.

Darkseid still overperforms all of them by a mile. Not a single one of those gods comes close to Darkseid. And that's even before we start touching Anti-Monitor showings (which i don't think we even have to do)

Avatar image for ancient_0f_days
Ancient_0f_Days

21593

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'll take the one who doesn't have an asinine argument going for him.

Uxas has better feats... That's a wrap

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

@professorrespect:

Given he had no ring and therefore no powers? I think the result is pretty obvious. I don't see how this equates to, like, power levels though. It's like using Superman being weakened by Kryptonite and acting like that makes him worse as a result.

I get what you're saying. You're saying that Lar didn't get to use his powers to the highest degree in the fight. But that's just a notch against him. It doesn't negate that Gods walked over lanterns in this story

Your original point was that Larfleeze scaling to Invictus is rubbish because his ring got stolen by someone. Like that's what it was, and I'm still confused as to why that even matters when this isn't a ring stealing contest and Seid isn't even facing anyone with one.

He clearly didn't if he was startled by the trick arrow. Just because someone tells you they are going to do something doesn't mean you have automatic awareness of them doing such a thing in a way you didn't expect.

That's fair. Doesn't make it an ambush or even a dirty trick. It's just Lar not being good at fighting

I don't know how being tricked means he sucks at fighting ngl. Larfleeze has been perfectly competent in being able to fight off even the Guardians of the Universe to the point of multiple members dying and them having to concede a space sector to him because of that fact. It seems like the opposite etc

Given her little net thingy she uses later gets bypassed by Violet energy to boot (which is a lot less powerful than Orange) it's safe to assume she wouldn't be able to actually fight him.

The same net thingy resisted white energy, which is a lot more powerful than Orange. I'd say that the issue was the nature of the power, not the amount. Also, seems like you are assuming the net is the highest end of the power level for her

Given it's the best out of...what, five feats? I'm going to assume as such given that fact.

Why didn't Hal or any of the rest at least consider that? Why didn't their rings notify them of such like they usually do when their life is at threat?

Yeah, i'm exactly saying that the fall of Supertown on New Genesis would not have killed the Lanterns. As i don't think it would kill any of the big gods. It would kill a whole lot of kids and civilians

I don't know about that given it clearly said "total" when considering the prospect of fatalities. Even if this wasn't in account of those who weren't on the flying New Genesis, Highfather would've still been included there given he was on said thing.

Given their entire city was falling to the ground and risked killing everyone there, are you seriously suggesting that they WOULDN'T use their instant teleportation to escape danger? Why would they have Orion slowly carrying a couple of people at a time instead? Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Pick any story ever written and i will find a bunch of "doesn't seem reasonable" moments in it.

Anyway, we should go back to the topic at hand

Sure

Darkseid still overperforms all of them by a mile. Not a single one of those gods comes close to Darkseid. And that's even before we start touching Anti-Monitor showings

Seid was directly stated to be amped facing Mobius given he was draining the population of multiple planets to prepare for the fight, so those feats wouldn't even count anyway.

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@professorrespect:

Your original point was that Larfleeze scaling to Invictus is rubbish because his ring got stolen by someone. Like that's what it was, and I'm still confused as to why that even matters when this isn't a ring stealing contest and Seid isn't even facing anyone with one.

To be clear, i still stand behind that argument. I just don't think i can present it in a way that it would be unquestionable, so i am moving on. Lar is basically the entity of greed himself. Taking something off of him by force, after announcing that you will do it can only happen if he is powerless to stop you.

Seid was directly stated to be amped facing Mobius given he was draining the population of multiple planets to prepare for the fight, so those feats wouldn't even count anyway.

Actually, Seid's entire New 52 story was about him becoming stronger to fight Mobius. There is no "set level of power" for New 52 Darkseid. Literally, the entire story is all about him amping his powers. So, if you want to leave any of the feats out, you would actually have to specify which feats are removed in the OP.

In New 52, Darkseid's story goes like this

  1. Darkseid learns Antimonitor is coming again (Darkseid remembers the COIE) and Darkseid knows Antimonitor>>>>> Darkseid.
  2. Darkseid decides he needs to become more powerful than AM
  3. Darkseid starts feeding on planets and universes* (claimed, but in an off-comment, i do not buy that one) to increase his powers to match AM
  4. Darkseid invades Earth Prime and gets deflected. Not enough power
  5. Darkseid invades Earth-2 and completely destroys the planet while killing almost all heroes on the planet. Becomes stronger
  6. Darkseid grows to Antimonitor Level and Darkseid War begins.
  7. Darkseid loses because his plan to use the God of Death to kill Antimonitor Backfires
  8. Darkseid gets reincarnated as a baby

In Rebirth. His story goes like this

  1. Darkseid is a baby
  2. Darkseid feeds on Greek Gods to get enough power to rebuild his adult body.
  3. Teen Darkseid easily beats Zeus
  4. Adult Darkseid gets powerful, but Wonder Woman sucks out Greek God powers out of him through the power of Love

Then we have the Ghost Sector story, and then we see him assemble his Godhead and oneshot the Quintessence.

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

@professorrespect:

Your original point was that Larfleeze scaling to Invictus is rubbish because his ring got stolen by someone. Like that's what it was, and I'm still confused as to why that even matters when this isn't a ring stealing contest and Seid isn't even facing anyone with one.

Lar is basically the entity of greed himself. Taking something off of him by force, after announcing that you will do it can only happen if he is powerless to stop you

He's also a tremendous airhead who was distracted about wanting stuff in that specific instance rather than fighting proper etc

Seid was directly stated to be amped facing Mobius given he was draining the population of multiple planets to prepare for the fight, so those feats wouldn't even count anyway.

Actually, Seid's entire New 52 story was about him becoming stronger to fight Mobius. There is no "set level of power" for New 52 Darkseid. Literally, the entire story is all about him amping his powers. So, if you want to leave any of the feats out, you would actually have to specify which feats are removed in the OP

I'd say you'd use him the first time around on Earth then all things considered, and that version simply isn't good enough against Invictus given his lackluster outing. Him having to further amp himself to fight the chronologically weakened Anti-Monitor/Mobius who was similarly wiping out populations in order to amp himself as well doesn't exactly inspire confidence in that regard.

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@professorrespect: so, you would only limit him to his very first appearance, and jave us ignore the vast majority of N52 appearances? That doesn't seem right. I'd say his fight vs The Empty Hand is probably most logical, given that it's not an amped version and that it's not him being nerfed by Pariah's control.

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

@professorrespect: so, you would only limit him to his very first appearance, and jave us ignore the vast majority of N52 appearances? That doesn't seem right. I'd say his fight vs The Empty Hand is probably most logical, given that it's not an amped version and that it's not him being nerfed by Pariah's control.

Why would we have him amped in a thread where he's not supposed to be amped? The thread says "Standard Levels" to boot, those weren't standard for Seid.

How is him vs Empty Hand (which happened in Rebirth, not N52) the best reflection of his stats? He was still within the scope of Great Darkness. Standard no-amps Seid lost to Superman fair and square as we've detailed before.

Avatar image for tifalockhart
TifaLockhart

24768

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

#36  Edited By ProfessorRespect
Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@chimeroid said:

@professorrespect: so, you would only limit him to his very first appearance, and jave us ignore the vast majority of N52 appearances? That doesn't seem right. I'd say his fight vs The Empty Hand is probably most logical, given that it's not an amped version and that it's not him being nerfed by Pariah's control.

Why would we have him amped in a thread where he's not supposed to be amped? The thread says "Standard Levels" to boot, those weren't standard for Seid.

How is him vs Empty Hand (which happened in Rebirth, not N52) the best reflection of his stats? He was still within the scope of Great Darkness. Standard no-amps Seid lost to Superman fair and square as we've detailed before.

Because an "Amp" implies a short term increase in power. If he was just increasing his powers permanently, it's valid. Why would we use Goku from the end of the story when we can use him from the beginning? Why would we use modern Iron Man suits? Stuff like that. Is there any proof that, had he not died, Darkseid would have lost his powers he accrued for Mobius? That onus is on you to prove.

Him vs the Empty Hand was him not amped by anything. It was just Darkseid.

For the fight with Superman, it was a random off-comic where Darkseid was behaving weirdly, using a motherbox (which he doesn't do) and the issue itself has a bunch of other issues.

Furthermore, "losing" is a weird statement. He got warned by the mother box he might get injured and he left. Furthermore, can you place that "story" in the continuity in any way? Please, go ahead and do so. Because that story smells like some really hardcore non-canon.

You are using a feat that's on the level of Thanos getting arrested by the NYPD.

But, again, it is already understood you have a very strong bias against New Gods. But that just sounds like a you problem.

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

@professorrespect said:
@chimeroid said:

@professorrespect: so, you would only limit him to his very first appearance, and jave us ignore the vast majority of N52 appearances? That doesn't seem right. I'd say his fight vs The Empty Hand is probably most logical, given that it's not an amped version and that it's not him being nerfed by Pariah's control.

Why would we have him amped in a thread where he's not supposed to be amped? The thread says "Standard Levels" to boot, those weren't standard for Seid.

How is him vs Empty Hand (which happened in Rebirth, not N52) the best reflection of his stats? He was still within the scope of Great Darkness. Standard no-amps Seid lost to Superman fair and square as we've detailed before.

Because an "Amp" implies a short term increase in power. If he was just increasing his powers permanently, it's valid

...it wasn't permanent though. His Anti-Monitor amps went afterwards due to him dying.

Is there any proof that, had he not died, Darkseid would have lost his powers he accrued for Mobius? That onus is on you to prove

Is it? It was a power-up he had to acquire for a specific foe and he lost it as soon as his physical body was destroyed. It seems like it was a amp.

Him vs the Empty Hand was him not amped by anything. It was just Darkseid

In Rebirth. This is N52.

Also this isn't true either. Seid being a hand of Great Darkness meant he was always a puppet dancing to whatever it wanted, GD just made sure of it later on in Dark Crisis when Seid tried fighting it.

For the fight with Superman, it was a random off-comic where Darkseid was behaving weirdly, using a motherbox (which he doesn't do) and the issue itself has a bunch of other issues

Furthermore, "losing" is a weird statement. He got warned by the mother box he might get injured and he left

The Box specifically warned him about significant damage and Seid was thus defeated. If he would've won then he would have stayed and fought, yet he did not.

Furthermore, can you place that "story" in the continuity in any way

Who cares? It's a canon story within the mainline DC Prime Earth universe until proven otherwise.

But, again, it is already understood you have a very strong bias against New Gods

Not really, life's too short to have biases. They just aren't that good.

Avatar image for jimohkolawol10
jimohkolawol10

3835

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Darkseid stomps

Avatar image for chimeroid
Chimeroid

12221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@professorrespect:

...it wasn't permanent though. His Anti-Monitor amps went afterwards due to him dying.

I would say they were definitely permanent. They lasted until the end of the life of that body. In the next arc, he is in the body of the baby of Mazahs and Superwoman. Also, the story of him amping himself up lasted for quite a while. We only saw it in one fight. But the amps were there for longer.

Is it? It was a power-up he had to acquire for a specific foe and he lost it as soon as his physical body was destroyed. It seems like it was a amp.

He lost it because he died. That doesn't mean that the nature of the powerup is temporary. it just means he died.

In Rebirth. This is N52. Also this isn't true either. Seid being a hand of Great Darkness meant he was always a puppet dancing to whatever it wanted, GD just made sure of it later on in Dark Crisis when Seid tried fighting it.

Those two are the same continuity. Rebirth is a continuation of New 52. Also the OP image of Darkseid shows him from 2018.
As for Seid being a hand of GD, as he was always that, the story in this case doesn't influence his power level. It retcons it. So Darkseid was ALWAYS the right hand of the Darkness.

Who cares? It's a canon story within the mainline DC Prime Earth universe until proven otherwise.

I think we should all care. Because the story is impossible to align with the actual DC Continuity. is this Darkseid coming from Earth Omega while assembling his Godhead? Because he was unable to leave Earth Omega until he killed the quintessence. Did he do it from the Ghost Sector?

How did he have the ALE in that story? Why did the ALE not make any sense?

Why did Darkseid have a Motherbox?

The story doesn't make sense.

Avatar image for professorrespect
ProfessorRespect

43557

Forum Posts

12984

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 9

#41  Edited By ProfessorRespect

@professorrespect:

...it wasn't permanent though. His Anti-Monitor amps went afterwards due to him dying.

I would say they were definitely permanent. They lasted until the end of the life of that body. In the next arc, he is in the body of the baby of Mazahs and Superwoman. Also, the story of him amping himself up lasted for quite a while. We only saw it in one fight. But the amps were there for longer

If it was a slow increase then I'd imagine that it would be applicable at the earliest for standard forms instead of beyond etc

Is it? It was a power-up he had to acquire for a specific foe and he lost it as soon as his physical body was destroyed. It seems like it was a amp.

He lost it because he died. That doesn't mean that the nature of the powerup is temporary

It doesn't mean it was intended to be permanent either. It's a extension of his power level from his standard when he began doing so

In Rebirth. This is N52. Also this isn't true either. Seid being a hand of Great Darkness meant he was always a puppet dancing to whatever it wanted, GD just made sure of it later on in Dark Crisis when Seid tried fighting it.

Those two are the same continuity

Rebirth is still drastically different from N52. Many characters were given minor or major adjustments to more suit their Post Crisis stuff.

The thread also says N52 so like, idk if pulling in Rebirth would be valid.

As for Seid being a hand of GD, as he was always that, the story in this case doesn't influence his power level. It retcons it. So Darkseid was ALWAYS the right hand of the Darkness

It does show that Seid's power level was massively influenced by Darkness manipulating events to prepare for their arrival. Not only that but Seid's power level after Dark Crisis has essentially been reduced to normal, so it was pretty clearly a temporary deal.

Who cares? It's a canon story within the mainline DC Prime Earth universe until proven otherwise.

I think we should all care. Because the story is impossible to align with the actual DC Continuity. is this Darkseid coming from Earth Omega while assembling his Godhead

Seems before then.

How did he have the ALE in that story? Why did the ALE not make any sense

It was unfinished as it typically is.