Netflix Wilson Fisk vs DCEU Harley Quinn

Harley Quinn

Wilson Fisk

Conditions:

• Ms. Quinn is armed with her baseball bat
• Fisk is wearing his body armor
• Standard win conditions
• Morals off/Both are pissed off

Who would win?

Not sure who I think wins yet.

I'm down to back Harley to start a debate, though.

Gonna go with Kingpin.

A random biker disarmed Harley of her bat and was choking her out.

Kingpin bullies her.

Matt is way more agile than Harley, stronger, mote durable. Fisk puts that bat somewhere uncomfortable.

Based on just Suicide Squad, since I haven't see BoP...Fisk takes it.

I'm leaning Kingpin.

Fisk takes it. Harley doesn't have any moves that can put him down.

But it won't be easy either. She fell out of a helicopter and was just fine.

@wyldsong: You need to see BoP then....she gets a ton of feats

A baseball bat to Fisks head is gonna do a lot of damage

You don't think this to the head is going to do some damage? She did that with a gun, she's even better with a bat.

@allstarsuperman: Daredevil and Fisk were both hitting each other in the head with metal pipes repeatedly. He can tank one baseball bat.

No, because one of the reasons Fisk can fight Daredevil despite the difference in skill is that he just brute forces his way through attacks that put most people on their backs. Matt was doing freaking Tekken combos on this dude and Fisk still ragdolled him a few times because he's just that strong. I wouldn't be surprised if Fisk caught her bat and then really made it a bad day.

@essentiallyheroes: Agree, but by the end of their fight Fisk is bloodied and unconscious. Matt's striking really isn't a tier above Harley or anything like that. In fact, I think she has several advantages over seasons 1/3 Matt (the one Fisk fought). Such as durability and speed/skill. With that, she should be capable of getting tagged less and handling any strikes or ragdolls that do land better.

I haven't seen anything from Harley to put her on even S1 Daredevil's skill and speed, let alone Season 3. I'm not sure what her advantage here is, a bat can be easily ripped from her hand and she's definitely not physically capable enough to stand up to Fisk in h2h.

Fisk destroys.

@boc:

Where is the skill feats that put her above Matt because after watching her movie I certainly won't put her above Matt in skill.

OT Fisk wins

@boc: I mean, that was after Matt hit Fisk in the head with his batons and kicks several times and he tanked all of it. Matt had to get a running start to knock him out. Also, the difference between this fight and DD is that Matt was wearing a full set of high-grade body armor and was still getting thrashed. Harley with her Tshirt and booty shorts won't fare as well I feel. Also, Fisk can crack bricks with his punches alone, nevermind a weapon.

Harley is definitely strong and agile enough to give Fisk a run for his money but at the end of the day if the highly trained and super senses Daredevil with body armor just barely pulls ahead, I doubt Harley can.

Yeah, don't know where this Harley> S1/3 Matt in skill is coming from. Fisk should destroy her.

Fisk mid diff

@essentiallyheroes: Yeah, I think it would take Harley a lot of hits to put him down too, but she should fare at least as well as Matt given the advantages she has. Even though Harley doesn't wear body armor she has taken a fall like this, and a hit like this. Easily recovering from both. She's pretty durable.

If you've watched 'Birds of Prey' I'm referring to her fight against the inmates. While the choreography doesn't make it look like an 8v1, that's more a product of the limits of LA imo - the actor/stunt double can't properly engage 8 people. Based on what's been set-up in the film, and the fact that the directors probably don't consider these guys to be that dumb, I think it's safe to assume they intended it to be an 8v1 rather than the thugs coming at her one at a time for no reason.

I don't recall anything from s1/3 Matt that's better than this. If this were s2 or Defenders Matt, where he had improved, I'd agree that he stomps Harley on a skill basis.

@boc:

f you've watched 'Birds of Prey' I'm referring to her fight against the inmates. While the choreography doesn't make it look like an 8v1, that's more a product of the limits of LA imo - the actor/stunt double can't properly engage 8 people. Based on what's been set-up in the film, and the fact that the directors probably don't consider these guys to be that dumb, I think it's safe to assume they intended it to be an 8v1 rather than the thugs coming at her one at a time for no reason.

Wouldn't that make most of the 1v group fight a legit 1vn feat? And there are ways to show a legit nv1. Bruce v 4 guys in warehouse, Nyssa v 6 ninjas, BS v 10 ninjas, that Sunny fight with 3 guys, to name a few.

@boc:

By that logic, CW arrow has fought 20soldiers at once. She didn't fight them all at once so therefore it didn't happen.

I'll admit her unorthodox style might keep her in the fight but if Fisk grabs her she is done for.

S1 Matt is definitely above her in skill.

Fisk

@boc: She was also choked out by a random biker, so while she has good hits she's not that technical of a fighter.

Daredevil, on the other hand, does what Harley does but with highly trained ninjas instead of random goons. He's taken out several hand ninjas, including Nobu, Electra, and he even beat up 3 armed police officers while handcuffed. And the enemies come at him at the same time. So Fisk being able to overcome that level of skill with brute force means that Harley likely wouldn't fare much better. Also, Harley often needs to rely on her environment to give her an advantage while DD and Fisk don't really. Fisk has straight-up killed people with a few punches to the face while Harley needs a bat to do that. Even getting tased did almost nothing to him.

These clips should more clearly show what I'm talking about with the difference in skill and strength (first part of the second clip):

Fisk, and rather easily

@rbt:

Wouldn't that make most of the 1v group fight a legit 1vn feat?

If the fodder had no reason to stand back, I'd say so. A common reason they would is fear (applies to a lot of low level fodder.) Here, on the other hand, a plot point of the movie is that no one takes Harley seriously without the Joker around. Which is why every low level thug that wants revenge comes after her.

Bruce v 4 guys in warehouse, Nyssa v 6 ninjas, BS v 10 ninjas, that Sunny fight with 3 guys, to name a few.

Majority of these aren't 8v1s. Something obviously much harder to choreograph. Why would adding legit 3v1s or 4v1s change your perspective here? You'd just call them 3v1s in quick succession. I'm arguing the director wanted a legit 8v1, as the alternative is they intended these thugs to have sub-common sense.

As for the BS feat, an obvious reason they wouldn't do this is that the director prefers dope action sequences over off-screen hype. The inmate scene is 1 of around 4 full scenes. They obviously aren't going to make it off-screen just so CV debaters don't lowball Harley.

When has Oliver been surrounded by 20 soldiers and cleared them? You're comparison would be more legit if I said Harley had fought the police officers, inmates, and mercs that come from the same sequence at once. I didn't though. I'm referring to the specific moment where she began surrounded by 8 opponents who have no reason to stand back.

She didn't fight them all at once so therefore it didn't happen.

Why should we always take what we see on-screen over the director's intent? Bullets in film for example; should we say they are slow (as they visually are on-screen) or use the speed they should be (what's intended)?

@essentiallyheroes: I think I see where you are coming from now. And while I don't agree, I can respect it. So agree to disagree.

The debates on cv are really getting dumber by the day...

The only way Harley could win is repeated shots to the head

@boc:

What I meant by my Oliver's comment was that he had lots of feats like that where the bad guys come at him one at a time instead of all at once.

On your second point, I believe we have discussed directors intent before which I agreed with you only if we use it across all board for consistency but it brings issues like the Ragnarok script saying Thor can move at lightning speeds so do we believe what was shown on screen or agree with the script in this instance and there are more issues like what I just highlighted.

Harley is more agile and skilled while having a weapon that could seriously hurt him (Harley 6.5/10)

Fisk is strong as all hell. He takes it mid-diff.

@johndeyvido:

What I meant by my Oliver's comment was that he had lots of feats like that where the bad guys come at him one at a time instead of all at once.

Ah, I should have made my stance clear then. I only consider it a legit 1vX when the fighter begins surrounded and the fodder have no reason to stand back. Not when fodder are running towards the character from a single direction and some fodder just happen to make it there first. Or when a character goes through a setting, beating fodder throughout. This is why I don't add the police or bikers to this feat; only the inmates.

On your second point, I believe we have discussed directors intent before which I agreed with you only if we use it across all board for consistency but it brings issues like the Ragnarok script saying Thor can move at lightning speeds so do we believe what was shown on screen or agree with the script in this instance and there are more issues like what I just highlighted.

We have to look at a lot of things when we consider intent (same way we do with feats.) One is consistency. Thor being lightning speed is contradicted by Fiege calling Quick Silver around bullet speed. Feats are also a portrayal of intent, so when a character has contradicting feats, it could be contradicting intent. Another possibility is hyperbole. The latter I think is the more likely case here, but the former works just as well.

@boc:

You can see the issue with director's intent. The director for Ragnarok was different(Waititi) so how do you know it wasn't his intentions? since one of the subplot is Thor unlocking his hidden power.

So how does Feige calling QS contradict Thor after many years later and finally unlocking his full ability under a different director inconsistent?

The wording used in the script was simile not hyperbole, a direct comparison. Eg superman being compared to a speeding bullet or black panther said to have cat-like agility.

@johndeyvido:

You can see the issue with director's intent. The director for Ragnarok was different(Waititi) so how do you know it wasn't his intentions? since one of the subplot is Thor unlocking his hidden power.

So how does Feige calling QS contradict Thor after many years later and finally unlocking his full ability under a different director inconsistent?

Phase 1 Thor could be tagged by Hulk. Thanos, despite being faster than Thor, could not statue Hulk. Arguing that Ragnarok boosted Thor's speed from sub-bullet to lighting would still be inconsistent. This is just one example, I'm sure there's more.

The wording used in the script was simile not hyperbole, a direct comparison. Eg superman being compared to a speeding bullet or black panther said to have cat-like agility.

Can you post it? I don't recall ever seeing it, I was just going off your explaination.

Harley can't take Fisk down, he's too strong and enduring. He's going to take what she dishes out and get close. When he does, she gets pummeled.

No.

@boc:

@boc:

This is the excerpt :

Fisk put a dent in a brick wall, so his striking is much better than Quinn's.

Harley beats his face in till he dies.

Harley is agile and evasive enough to hit and run for awhile, and I do anticipate her being able to hurt him. But I can't see her winning. Fisk is too strong and too durable.

@johndeyvido: I don't think "moves like a bolt of lightning" is meant to imply he's as fast as lightning. Seems more like an exaggeration to suggest he was fast and erratic, destroying everything in his path. Along with being covered in electricity, giving the impression of a lightning bolt.

Also, just rewatched some scenes from Ragnarok. Arguing that Waititi intended to amp Thor's speed is also contradicted here. Hela couldn't statue Valkery, who couldn't statue Loki, who was comparable in speed to Thor pre-Rag. If Thor was intended to be amped by several times his previous speed, he wouldn't still be within Hela's tier.

Fair enough.

Probably Kingpin

Just watched that awful yet kinda fun Birds of Prey movie earlier. Harley was on the losing side of too many average mooks to beat Kingpin 1 on 1.