Netflix Danny Rand vs CW Oliver Queen

Oliver is faster, more skilled, and more experienced, he takes this.

I'm still not sure how people think Oliver can win this, once again, I will say it, he's an incredible fighter, he's the most skilled person in his universe, but there is simply no way he is going to beat Danny Rand in a h2h fight, with his arrows he has a chance.

@arcus1: I actually talked to people about that, people think the people Danny fought in episode 6 would destroy Matt/Nobu and I agree. Nobu was a mid level hand guy, these people are the best the hand had to offer.

@rbt: I can't agree with that one :P Ollies a great fighter but cmon.. its Danny Rand, the best fighter in Marvel give or take a Shang Chi. Him becoming the Iron Fist alone is an incredible feat, he beat a dragon without a weapon. He also beats some of marvels best named characters, all of which are superior to Lady Shiva/Richard Dragon. Danny is just simply out of Ollies league. And I say that having defended Oliver against people like Arkham Batman and MCU Panther, there's just no way he can beat Danny.

This is not comic book Iron Fist. This is MCU version who is nowhere near his comic book counterpart, or CW Oliver, for the matter.(Still on ep 9 though).

@rbt: he's definitely beyond Oliver, wait till episode 12, he dominates one of marvels best named characters. Trust me there's no way ollie can beat Danny, and Danny is just gonna get even better.

Okay. 4 more episodes to go.

@rbt: let me list their skill feats/training feats

Ollie's Training:

Trained by Yao Fei,Slade,Shado,Talia and Ras

Danny's Training: Trained 15 years straight by people who are beyond Ras, non stop every day and was beaten if he failed.

Danny beat a dragon with his bare hands

Beat Zhou Cheng the guy who kills Iron Fists, who is also beyond Ras

Dominates the best the hand have to offer when Matt barely escaped with his life against a middle of the hand member.

Dominated one of marvels best named fighters. Who is close to Shang

Oliver has beaten

Malcolm Merlyn

Slade *who is less skilled than Malcolm without mirakuru

Ras

Damien Darhk

And Prometheus in terms of skill.

I just don't see any way Oliver would even be close to Danny, you can't go solely based on feats because Danny barely has any. But based on logic and the fact that's Danny has beaten some of marvels best named fighters, there's no way for Ollie to even come close to winning this.

Danny all rounds.

@rbt: but besides that how are you liking the show? MrMonster said he liked it as well, I thought it was really good. Not quite as good as DareDevil or Arrow but I liked it.

A little duller than I expected, but definitely overhated by critics. Better than Luke Cage, worse than Jessica Jones.

@rbt: for me it's better than every MCU show except DD, next season I expect more action and less plot, the ending for this season really sets that up so I'm excited.

Without Chi, Danny is basically Daredevil without a suit. I'd say slightly more skilled. But his strength and speed aren't anything to write home about. Nothing Ollie can't handle

1. Ollie wins 6/10
2. Ollie wins 8/10
3. Ollie and Prometheus 9/10

@webinyoureye11: well first of all... Ollie is like 2x as skilled as Matt, and second of all.. Danny is at least 3x as skilled as Matt.

He's beaten some of marvels best named characters

A dragon with his bare hands

Dominated the best that the hand had to offer when Matt BARELY beat a middle level hand fighter...

I made this thread right before watching episode 1, and I was wrong to not watch it first, becoming the Iron Fist alone puts him above Ollie, the rest of the things that I just mention put him even further above Oliver.

@komboing:

well first of all... Ollie is like 2x as skilled as Matt, and second of all.. Danny is at least 3x as skilled as Matt.

Based on what exactly?

He's beaten some of marvels best named characters

Name them, and 1 decent feat they have outside of fighting Danny

A dragon with his bare hands

Off screen, and with no idea how

Dominated the best that the hand had to offer when Matt BARELY beat a middle level hand fighter...

Gao was leader of a section of the Hand, just like Bakuto and Nobu. What makes you think her best is better than Nobu? Nobu was clearly on Gao's level of power due to him being at the meetings with her and Kingpin.

becoming the Iron Fist alone puts him above Ollie, the rest of the things that I just mention put him even further above Oliver.

Except they don't.

Hype is not the same as feats

Danny was skilled, but its not like his base stats were anything special. All his fights come against featless people, who we are told are the best according to Danny. But none of them really do anything special. You can't expect me to believe that Danny is the best fighter ever just cause he was trained by the "best" in the MCU. That statement is just that, a statement. Not a feat, because we have no idea how good his masters are. We can only assume they are better than Danny

Ollie was a match for Ra's Al Ghul, the leader of a group of ninjas that were capable of arrow timing, who lived for over a hundred years and was shown to be able to stomp 8 assassins in a 1v8 sword fight, in like 5 seconds. Thats more than hype, thats a feat. And its frankly better than anything anyone in the MCU has shown to be capable of (from skill alone)

@webinyoureye11: Danny beat Davos and Zhao Cheng... some of marvels best named fighters... he obviously beat the dragon... and becoming Iron Fist does put him above Ollie... he had to become the most skilled fighter in all of Kun Lun

If you think Oliver even has a chance here you are simply wrong

He trained every day for 15 years and was beaten if he failed.

He beat the best people Gao could find and beat Bakuto who was a LEADER of the hand.. was Nobu a leader of the hand... no

And also Ollie isn't a "match" for Ras he's better than Ras at h2h at this point.

If Oliver is gonna win any of these rounds it's gonna be R2, as long as he uses his arrows smart

Danny was faster and way more acrobatic, with chi it's a mismatch can but without Ollie will make him work for it but Ollie dosent have the feats to suggest he's winning

Plus why is there all this bull about Ollie being more experienced? From the start of the is land to present day it's not even been 10 years... That's even less of the time that Danny spent at kun lun

@royal_warrior: I think R2-3 will be close. But I don't think R1 will be close :P

Plus just like to point out that beating LoA means noting when Jaxx knocked one out who had got the drop on him, Laurel being able to fight three at once even though 3 episodes ealier she was beat by a random woman beater whislt she had a weapon and he didn't and the fact that Ollie and Diggle just ran straight through Nanda parbat like t was nothing

Nothing was remotely impressive about LOA ninjas after season 2 mid season

R 1. Danny

R 2. Oliver easy

R 3. No idea

You could argue Ollie's experience is better than Danny's. Danny was surrounded and trained by "friends", even though they were punished if losing a fight.. But Oliver went through hell and was forced to adapt and has experienced a bunch of life threatening situations whereas Danny trained in a monastery far away from civilization. So Ollie is more experienced in combat with an enemy that is not in training or practice and Ollie has better experience with fighting for his life.

So Danny has more experience, but you could argue Ollie has better experience

@komboing:

Danny beat Davos and Zhao Cheng... some of marvels best named fighters... he obviously beat the dragon... and becoming Iron Fist does put him above Ollie... he had to become the most skilled fighter in all of Kun Lun

Prove they are the best named fighters in the MCU with feats. Again, I don't know anything about what happened with the dragon, due to it happening off screen. Ollie is the most skilled fighter in the arrowverse. so what makes kun lun so great, other than hype?

If you think Oliver even has a chance here you are simply wrong

If you think Oliver doesn't have a chance, you are deluded

He beat the best people Gao could find and beat Bakuto who was a LEADER of the hand.. was Nobu a leader of the hand... no

Gotta love that head canon. Nobu led the invasion of New York. He has immortality and an army of ninja following him, what proof do you have that he is not a leader of the hand? He clearly was the leader of his hand ninja, just like Gao.

You saying Danny is the best cause he was trained by the best, and beat the best is no different than Ollie.

He was trained in extreme circumstances, learned from the best fighter in the verse (Ras), even beating him in a duel. So going by your logic, they are no different

@webinyoureye11: *sigh* once again as I have said to a few other people, if I haven't convinced you already I won't be able to. But please ask yourself this, do you actually think that Oliver Queen is better than DANNY RAND the IRON FIST, even Batman in the comics isn't better than Iron Fist, or even close, do you actually think they wouldn't make him about that skilled on the show? If you answer "no they are gonna make him less skilled than Oliver Queen/DareDevil" then I simply can't convince you.

@thesuperor: I would like for you to understand what I mean when I say he wouldn't lay a finger on Danny, I mean that he wouldn't successfully hit Danny, I guarantee they'd go blow for blow for about 10-20 seconds, but I don't see Oliver getting any successful hits/combos.

This isn't the comics. You haven't proven one of your baseless claims. You make assumption after assumption and expect others to just go with it.

In the comics, Thor is way more powerful than MCU Thor. Same can be said for Daredevil, Spider-man, Iron Man and Scarlett Witch. So what makes MCU Danny Rand, as good as his 616 counterpart? Prove it

Show me a feat that makes him more skilled than Ollie or Ra's. no more off screen dragon bs, or "hes the IRON FIST!! of course hes better!! Cause honestly, you're not helping you're agument

And what is so impressive about the hand? Downplaying one sides feats in order to win a debate is weak. You saying Ollie and company making it look easy means LOA are fodder is like saying, everyone Danny beat didn't give him a real challenge, so the hand must be fodder as well

@webinyoureye11: I'm not gonna defend myself to you lmao... I've read your posts.. you have severely underrated Danny to a laughable point.

The difference between us is I know how skilled Oliver and Danny are, Oliver is an incredible martial artist and he is the best in his universe, but there is simply no chance that he would beat Danny in pure h2h combat, he has a chance in R2-3.

If you can't accept that, I'm not sure why but I see no need to defend an obvious fact to someone who is simply under rating him. Maybe you dislike Danny, or just the show in general, but you are just wrong lmao.

Danny dominated Davos, one of marvels best fighters.

Beat Zhao Cheng, someone who's purpose is to kill Iron Fists

Beat the best in the hand, trained 15 years non stop with people who have martial arts that people on earth don't even know exist.

And beat a dragon, WHICH WAS STATED.

If you can't accept it, it's your problem, not mine lmao.

@webinyoureye11: what makes the hand impressive... well their mid level guy did almost beat Daredevil and Elektra at the same time. I'd say that's pretty impressive. Oh yeah and their top guys fought Iron Fist, sure they got destroyed but I think that's a reference for how skilled they are. At least they didn't get beat by Laurel Lance in a 3v1.

@webinyoureye11: no I'm not downplaying it's the truth

The hand have multiple instances of shown skill wether it was effective uses of posion, nerve strikes as seen as with a few of rands fights and lastly which is most impressive is adapting to situations

No one in LoA have proactively adapted in combat whereas the hand slowed down the breathing and heartbeat in order to get an advantage

It's all very well saying it hair makes Ollie and Diggle that good but that's not what I'm saying...Jax was blindsided by a LoA yet turned around and KOed him with one punch...a rookie in both Roy and Laurel were holding their own vs two, three at a time

This isn't lowballing it's fact, LoA became pathetic the more and more hey appeared to the point where 3 of these so called ninjas can't defeat rookies who have been ambushed

We can go round in circles all you want but for every one good feat for them there's ten like Lance giving a LoA a jab and KOing him or laurel and Roy Koing them with a push..

Downplaying is a weak debating tactic however with regards to random LoA mooks there's nothing to downplay because they were atrocious after Nyssa was introduced and became everyone punching bags end of

@komboing:

I'm not gonna defend myself to you lmao... I've read your posts.. you have severely underrated Danny to a laughable point.

So you read my posts and ignore them, because you still haven't proved any of your claims, nor have you disproved my points.

The difference between us is I know how skilled Oliver and Danny are, Oliver is an incredible martial artist and he is the best in his universe, but there is simply no chance that he would beat Danny in pure h2h combat, he has a chance in R2-3.

Except you have no legitimate proof that what you say is accurate

If you can't accept that, I'm not sure why but I see no need to defend an obvious fact to someone who is simply under rating him. Maybe you dislike Danny, or just the show in general, but you are just wrong lmao.

I like Danny and the show just fine. I don't let bias cloud my judgement, you should try it sometime

Danny dominated Davos, one of marvels best fighters.

Davos did nothing but fight hand ninja. He's no better than Daredevil at this point

Beat Zhao Cheng, someone who's purpose is to kill Iron Fists

So what? What was so impressive about a guy who fought for all of 2 minutes? What did he actually do on screen?

Beat the best in the hand, trained 15 years non stop with people who have martial arts that people on earth don't even know exist.

So what? People don't know about Nanda Parbat, nor how to get there. Ollie has beaten Nyssa, Malcolm, Sara and Ra's who all trained their for years. I don't see you mentioning that

And beat a dragon, WHICH WAS STATED.

LOL. Who cares? can you tell me HOW he beat the dragon? Otherwise, thats not a feat.

If you can't accept it, it's your problem, not mine lmao.

Accept what though? That you are a poor debater? Oh I do...

@webinyoureye11: So I guess I won't be able to convince you, but as I have already stated, I don't need to convince you, at least 2-3x as many people in this forum know that Danny would destroy Oliver, you are the one who needs to convince me. Read my posts, I have defended Oliver against the likes of Black Panther and arkham Batman. Both of which I know Oliver can beat, but he can't win this, and I'm not sure how you can be so blind to that fact.

"HOW" when he left the cage he was alive and had no weapons with him. In the comics *which is obviously the same as the show considering they showed the dragon* you needed to defeat the dragon with your bare hands. If you think that it didn't happen then you are blind to all facts. It's laughable to the extent at which you are low balling Danny

@royal_warrior: Dude, Claire pushed a hand ninja out of a window. Don't go off of just their low end feats cause the hand have theirs as well

You can't say the LOA are fodder to everyone just cause people who have experience in their training methods have beaten them.

Ollie trained Roy, Nyssa trained Laurel. It's dumb, but at least its reason to think they can fight LOA members

@webinyoureye11: yeah Oliver has beaten Sara Nyssa Malcolm and Ras

None of which are at Danny's level or even close.

Oliver is the best in his universe, but that doesn't put him on Danny's level. Sara,Nyssa and Malcolm are nowhere NEAR Oliver, only Ras is.

None of those people can beat Danny and neither can Oliver, I'm not sure how you don't see it but again.. whatever, if I somehow haven't convinced you by now, (even though I shouldn't have to, it should just be obvious) then I won't be able to.

@komboing: whatever, you haven't done anything but repeated the same crap. You haven't proven any of your claims, nor disproved my own

Have a nice day

The guy was assigned by the Hand to guard the chemist (the key to their heroin operation) as a solo assignment, and was killed for his failure (meaning he had never failed before). Sure he wasn't well developed, but that's enough to say he's not just a random thug. And even if he were, you're the one who said you tend to disregard low showings

Who says Nobu was just a mid level Hand guy?

We don't know how he beat the dragon, or anything about the dragon to gauge how difficult of a fight it was, or anything about that fight to make it remotely useable in a debate

Zhou Cheng isn't some sort of Iron Fist killer in the show, and he's done nothing to say he's more impressive than Ra's

Again, who says Nobu's just a mid-level guy?

Shang Chi doesn't exist in the MCU, why his he relevant?

Do you not get that their comic versions are not relevant here? Maybe when comparing two MCU characters, they could be relevant, like saying "Iron Fist's more skilled than Daredevil in the comics, so it would make sense for him to be better in the MCU," but it's completely irrelevant when comparing him to Ollie, who's in a totally unrelated show in a totally unrelated universe

@arcus1: I'm not comparing him to Oliver, I'm comparing him to other characters in the MCU, who have been compared to Oliver.

And in the comics Zhao Chang is a Iron Fist killer, and that was Zhao Chang.

You yourself said that Danny probably has what it takes to beat Oliver, Im simply listing the only feats I can come up with to prove that. If you were to go by feats obviously Oliver wins because Danny barely has any feats. But in his limited time on screen he didnt lose one fight and beat Steel Serpent, one of marvels top 5 fighters.

Ras Al Ghul isn't anywhere near top 10 for pure h2h in the comics, he's a great sword fighter. But when Oliver finally beat him people counted that as a feat simply because "HE BEAT RAS AL GHUL WTF HES A GOD"

Danny doesn't have the feats to beat Ollie or come close.

But based on his limited showings. His martial art skills in terms of h2h are far greater, he's solidified himself as at least the best in MCU by beating a top 5 MCU comic character, and dominating a leader of a group whereas Matt barely escaped with his life against someone who is "pretty high up" according to stick.

My point is I don't think oliver is close to danny in terms of skill.

I think Oliver is more intelligent

Less likely to fail in a fight due to emotional outbursts

Is overall a better hero

But in terms of pure martial arts, is not on Danny's level.

Who Zhao Cheng is in the comics doesn't matter. Who Steel Serpent is in the comics doesn't matter. Who Ra's al Ghul is in the comics doesn't matter. Why is that so hard to understand?

@sanitrize1999: how is Oliver more experienced? At best Oliver has 10 years of experience and a good percentage (maybe not a majority but a a good percentage) of that was fighting street fodder. Danny has a solid 15 years experience training with and defeating kun lun's best to become the Iron Fist. he beat a god damn dragon!

@lemonpeace: He has more experience fightinget criminals.

@sunman: @komboing: Iron Fist was sadly unimpressive. He could've and I say SHOULD'VE BEEN beast but they went a different route. He's very underwhelming. The fights were also awful. Oliver is more skilled. Danny was basic and has severe performance issues with the fist due to his trauma. They should've drafted the Ip Man choreographers or whoever did Into the Badlands for the fight scenes. It was awful. Barring a lucky Chi Amped punch, Danny loses and since that's FAR from his for to, he loses

@sanitrize1999: that's ENTIRELY irrelevant. the average criminal is just fodder. it's not about who's the more experienced hero it's about who's the better fighter.

@arcus1: it does matter... I'm not saying they are as skilled as their comic counterparts, but they are still the same person at they are in the comics, you also didn't answer every other point I had.

Logically Danny is simply out of Olivers league, he has trained 15 years non stop with people who know martial arts that earth people don't even know exist

He didn't lose ONE fight

And he was far more skilled than Daredevil, who is very skilled as well.

And again I bring up the point that you yourself said that Danny could beat Oliver in h2h, so I'm not sure why you're questioning the only feats I can possibly come up with to try and show these people to the same conclusion -_-

If you're judging by choreography, Arrow's got plenty of fights that aren't any better

Well apparently everything I've said doesn't actually matter because it doesn't count in the show. So I'll answer this by comicvine rules, only feats count.

R1-3 Oliver stomps with ease. He has more feats so he obviously wins.

Trying to base their standing off of how they are in comics is irrelevant. There's no reason they have to be the same version of the character that they are in the comics. Take Arrow for example, in the comics he's not a masterful hand to hand fighter (good, but not elite), but in CW he's one of the best in his universe. At best comic standings could be used to theorize how characters would relate to each other within the same universe, but that won't frequently apply, especially when the characters aren't gonna interact with each other

I said that Danny has the potential to win, but for now I'd argue for Ollie, and I disagree with your assessment that Danny's completely out of Ollie's league

So much of your argument seems to be based of comics, which is irrelevant here

Being better than Daredevil (even though your assessment about Nobu just being a mid tier fighter in the Hand is kinda unfounded), doesn't put him out of Ollie's league

@arcus1: the way you are comparing them there is no way to see who's better, they aren't even in the same universe, or multiverse.

In 5 seasons of Arrow Oliver has beaten Ras, a high level fighter, and death stroke who sucked, also Merlyn who was barely better than he was in s1

Now once again.

Danny in 1 season defeated the hands most skilled fighters, Davos and Zhao Cheng, didn't lose ONE fight

And they made it clear *whether people believe it or not, but I'm not sure why no one seems to get that it happened* that he beat a dragon without the use of his iron fist.

Becoming the Iron Fist alone is a greater feat than Oliver has achieved.

An outsider *which by the way had never become an Iron Fist before* became so skilled that he became an Iron Fist over someone who was about as skilled and had the birth right. He trained his entire life and in the end became number 1. That is greater than ANYTHING Ollie has done.

@arcus1: Oliver is *THE* best in his universe not one of the best. But I still don't put him on Danny's level. I'm not saying it would be over in 20 seconds. But I think it would be similar to Darhk vs Oliver in the final fight, Darhk clearly being superior.

So...instead of using feats, you think it makes more sense to rely on the comic versions?

....those are hardly the only three people he's beaten, do you really wanna list everyone? And just listing a bunch of names with no context is meaningless

How did he beat the dragon? How powerful is the dragon? Why is it better than anything Ollie has done?

Eh, he never really surpassed Ra's, and Darhk was pretty evenly matched with him, but I know you think S5 Ollie is on a completely different level now

I still don't know why so many people on this site or OBSESSED with feats. If we go by that approach, pretty much any long standing protagonist in a TV series, or perhaps series of movies is always going to beat a movie character or one season series character. It's less problematic for long standing comic's characters, but it can be a problem for newer characters. Logic and deductive reasoning need to play a role as well.

Some people seem to take choreography into account as well, which I don't really understand. If THAT's the case, most any big budget movie character should beat most any TV series character (of the same power level), this is actually sort of a side thing, it just annoys me slightly.

Granted, individuals' logic and deductive reasoning might not coincide, but the "black and white" FEATS measure simply isn't an accurate yard stick either, and people don't always agree which feats are "better" either. The main thing is that a character who's had the opportunity (five seasons for Arrow) to display feats (and is going to have to top them season after season, and so is going to, of necessity, have to have better and better feats) is always going to have better FEATS than one who hasn't displayed as many feats. Even, it seems, if that character has had a ton and a half of really crappy feats.

Sorry for the rant, this just annoys the hell out of me, and is why I rarely get involved in battle threads.