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#1 Edited by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio
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VS

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Rules:

They know each other only by reputation. Fight takes place in a neutral dimension.

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#2 Posted by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Thoromdil (1135 posts) - - Show Bio

Nekron is multiversal... and not just any multiversal. He one-shot both Spectre and Anti-monitor casually. This is too much for Hades.

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#4 Posted by ChattePuncher (18 posts) - - Show Bio

nek ftw

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#5 Edited by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil: Hades is also multiversal.

Nekron hard countered Spectre due to the whole "not being alive" thing.

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#6 Posted by ComicGirl21 (149 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil: agreed, Nekron should win, also he has feats against Life Entity which is the most powerful weapon in DC.

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#7 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20267 posts) - - Show Bio

Nekron sounds pretty OP from what I'm reading. What are his feats?

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#8 Posted by NakedSnek (230 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by weigazod (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Both Spectre and Anti-monitor in that arc look no more than your casual Galaxy-buster. They look weak as F.

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#10 Posted by Marc_55 (4823 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Nekron actually have multiversal feats tho? He beat a weakened Anti Monitor, who wasn't multiversal in the previous story anyway. He also didn't fight the Spectre at all, he just dismissed him due his "not having ever been alive" or whatever. Hardly a tale of power, certainly not enough to beat Hades, just from small info I know of him.

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#11 Edited by Lord_Spectrum (2166 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:

Does Nekron actually have multiversal feats tho? He beat a weakened Anti Monitor, who wasn't multiversal in the previous story anyway. He also didn't fight the Spectre at all, he just dismissed him due his "not having ever been alive" or whatever. Hardly a tale of power, certainly not enough to beat Hades, just from small info I know of him.

Plus on top of all of that, Nekron was getting power from Anti-Monitor who was trapped in the Black Lantern, in short he was amped during Blackest Night event.

And then we have an instance of unamped version of him struggling against Pre-52 Captain Atom - a Superman-level being.

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#12 Posted by Marc_55 (4823 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:

Does Nekron actually have multiversal feats tho? He beat a weakened Anti Monitor, who wasn't multiversal in the previous story anyway. He also didn't fight the Spectre at all, he just dismissed him due his "not having ever been alive" or whatever. Hardly a tale of power, certainly not enough to beat Hades, just from small info I know of him.

Plus on top of all of that, Nekron was getting power from Anti-Monitor who was trapped in the Black Lantern, in short he was amped during Blackest Night event.

I forgot about that, and when Anti rebelled he tried to kill him before he could cause too much of a problem.

And then we have an instance of unamped version of him struggling against Pre-52 Captain Atom - a Superman-level being.

This I didn't know, thanks for the info. So he'd be stomped here, is what you're saying? Pretty conclusive.

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#13 Posted by Godren (1682 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#14 Posted by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren: I am not a Saint Seiya expert, but it's been stated in like... Every single battle thread I have seen involving him.

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#15 Edited by Godren (1682 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by jardinain2 (5135 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren said:

@zetsumoto: Since when is Hades multiversal lol?

He's never been multiversal. Just multi-universal

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#17 Posted by Lord_Spectrum (2166 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55:

I forgot about that, and when Anti rebelled he tried to kill him before he could cause too much of a problem.

Yeah, but it's not that much of a feat really, since this version of Anti-Monitor was really weak, it wouldn't take that much power to kill him given that weakened Superboy Prime has done it.

This I didn't know, thanks for the info. So he'd be stomped here, is what you're saying? Pretty conclusive.

Yep.

Even if we include his amped version's feats, it is still not enough to beat someone like Marvel's Thanos or Odin, let alone Hades. Nekron's feats mostly involve either necromancy or some blasts, no reality warping powers whatsoever, he is your basic nercromancer wizard type with simple powerset.

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#18 Edited by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2 said:
@godren said:

@zetsumoto: Since when is Hades multiversal lol?

He's never been multiversal. Just multi-universal

Comicvine makes up with some stupid asf terminology sometimes...

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#19 Posted by Godren (1682 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: I used to think multiversal and multi-universal were the same thing as well lol.

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#20 Posted by jardinain2 (5135 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2 said:
@godren said:

@zetsumoto: Since when is Hades multiversal lol?

He's never been multiversal. Just multi-universal

Comicvine makes up with some stupid asf terminology sometimes...

There is a massive distinction.

Multiversal is definied in Marvel and other verses as being nigh infinite, or even transinfinite all the time, so when we call Eternity a multiversal being, we're saying he can create a transinfinite number of universes, whereas Hades made one, albeit casually.

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#21 Posted by Marc_55 (4823 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2 said:
@godren said:

@zetsumoto: Since when is Hades multiversal lol?

He's never been multiversal. Just multi-universal

Comicvine makes up with some stupid asf terminology sometimes...

CV didn't create that, and it's pretty simple to get. It just means he can affect or destroy more than 1 universe, but not enough (say 1000+) to be considered multiversal.

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#22 Posted by jardinain2 (5135 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:
@zetsumoto said:
@jardinain2 said:
@godren said:

@zetsumoto: Since when is Hades multiversal lol?

He's never been multiversal. Just multi-universal

Comicvine makes up with some stupid asf terminology sometimes...

CV didn't create that, and it's pretty simple to get. It just means he can affect or destroy more than 1 universe, but not enough (say 1000+) to be considered multiversal.

Also this. Its not stupid, it just means less confusion.

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#23 Posted by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:
@zetsumoto said:
@jardinain2 said:
@godren said:

@zetsumoto: Since when is Hades multiversal lol?

He's never been multiversal. Just multi-universal

Comicvine makes up with some stupid asf terminology sometimes...

CV didn't create that, and it's pretty simple to get. It just means he can affect or destroy more than 1 universe, but not enough (say 1000+) to be considered multiversal.

Also this. Its not stupid, it just means less confusion.

Multiverse means multiple universes, that's all. Most people just say universal+ if they don't mean a true multiversal being.

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#24 Posted by jardinain2 (5135 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2 said:
@marc_55 said:
@zetsumoto said:
@jardinain2 said:
@godren said:

@zetsumoto: Since when is Hades multiversal lol?

He's never been multiversal. Just multi-universal

Comicvine makes up with some stupid asf terminology sometimes...

CV didn't create that, and it's pretty simple to get. It just means he can affect or destroy more than 1 universe, but not enough (say 1000+) to be considered multiversal.

Also this. Its not stupid, it just means less confusion.

Multiverse means multiple universes, that's all. Most people just say universal+ if they don't mean a true multiversal being.

That doesn't make sense, and its just conjecture.

Characters like Hades who can casually create multiple dimensions, are multi-universe, more than one universe. Multiversal is defined completely differently.

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#25 Edited by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: What's conjecture? It's just terminology. I find the term "multi-universal" as opposed to "multiversal" to be rather asinine.

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#26 Posted by jardinain2 (5135 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: What's conjecture? It's just terminology. I find the term "multi-universal" as opposed to "multiversal" to be rather asinine.

But, why? Dormammu is universal, and Franklin Richards is above him by, a shit ton honestly, but I wouldn't say Franklin is Multiversal.. he can create multiple universes casually, that makes him above universal, but below marvels standards of multiversal.

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#27 Posted by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2:

he can create multiple universes casually, that makes him above universal but below marvels standards of multiversal.

That's generally considered universal+, but I am pretty sure Franklin is considered multiversal anyways.

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#28 Posted by highaccuser (32017 posts) - - Show Bio

Nekron doesn't have many feats of raw power but you can't actually beat him unless you cut his tether to the living or destroy all empty space in the universe.

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#29 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20267 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren: Not multiversal by the definition most online forums use. Just multi-universal.

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#30 Edited by Lord_Platinum (76 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2 said:

But, why? Dormammu is universal, and Franklin Richards is above him by, a shit ton honestly, but I wouldn't say Franklin is Multiversal.. he can create multiple universes casually, that makes him above universal, but below marvels standards of multiversal.

I actually consider him substantially above that level. I've already shown to you guidebooks/handbooks stating that 60's Dormammu can/has nearly destroyed the universe and also affected other dimensions/universes in the process:

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And

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Dorm received at least three permanent amps(Backed up by many sources) going from merging to his alternate-self, creating a superior body compared to his previous one(Which had all his powers + Doctor Strange's ones) and gaining Umar + Mordo + Clea's powers in order to create another physical form. Most people think they're temporary(Like Dormammu merging with alternate-self or when used the Evil Eye of Avalon, which doesn't amp the user himself/herself) when the comics and handbooks show that a new and superior Dormammu is being created, in fact, I would say Dorm is like a mystical Ultron...Always trying to evolve more.

Dormammu should've been at very least 3x times more powerful than his old-self during his first fight against Eternity and this can even be seen by his stats getting higher with each new handbook. Even 80s Dormammu was portrayed to be more powerful than the universal creator/destroyer Ubiquitor( It's just compare their fights against the GotG). By the 90's....He was infinitely above the likes of minor mystical entities such as Pura-Shamutra, whose death/imprisoning caused supra-dimensional mystical waves(Above universal) and incapacitated a Doctor Strange who was galaxies away from Shumutra as side-effects:

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He's above Shumutra because viewed and was paired against his very masters/creators in the War of the Seven Spheres and likewise won the battle, The Trinity of Ashes:

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And War of the Seven Spheres is only mystical being against mystical being, so Dormammu did alone(Especially because his forces were dealing with the rebellion lead by Clea at the time) and its' backed up by Slorioth's Bio(One of the beings Dormammu fought) that said battle did happen:

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It even calls his attempt "futile", lol. So yeah, Dormammu did fight the ToA and likewise won since the Dark Dimension is still in his possession. Just be being an opponent of the Ashes already proves that Dormammu is>>>>>>>>>>Pura-Shamutra anyway.

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#31 Posted by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

Nekron doesn't have many feats of raw power but you can't actually beat him unless you cut his tether to the living or destroy all empty space in the universe.

Couldn't you just destroy his conciousness/concept-of-self?

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#32 Posted by highaccuser (32017 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

Nekron doesn't have many feats of raw power but you can't actually beat him unless you cut his tether to the living or destroy all empty space in the universe.

Couldn't you just destroy his conciousness/concept-of-self?

I don't think he has that.

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#33 Posted by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: He obviously does or he wouldn't have any will or way of acting.

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#34 Edited by highaccuser (32017 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: He obviously does or he wouldn't have any will or way of acting.

He doesn't have any will. He's sort of just the universe's response to life. I don't think he has anything resembling sentience considering he's literally just a response to the existence of it.

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#35 Posted by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: He has a being, he's able to think and make choices, even if it's reactive and following set programming (which arguably could apply to everyone). For all intents and purposes, he exists. Therefore he can be destroyed.

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#36 Posted by devilmoonlight (114 posts) - - Show Bio

Nekron Stomps.

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#37 Posted by devilmoonlight (114 posts) - - Show Bio

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/valfranx/blog/debunked-saint-seiya-wanking-obd-and-vsbattle-defi/130467/

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#38 Posted by devilmoonlight (114 posts) - - Show Bio

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/valfranx/blog/saint-seiya-hades-context/109087/

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#39 Posted by Marc_55 (4823 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2 said:

Also this. Its not stupid, it just means less confusion.

Multiverse means multiple universes, that's all.

No, it doesn't. It's usually defined as a collection of infinite universes.

Most people just say universal+ if they don't mean a true multiversal being.

Which typically means slightly more than universal, but that doesn't have to cross over to multi-universal. Just like mountain+ doesn't necessarily mean multi-mountain, or continental+ doesn't necessarily mean multi-continental. I'm fact, they're usually considered separate tiers of power.

Well, it's not that important anyway. Just my $0.02 on the matter.

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#40 Posted by rhistr (169 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: He has a being, he's able to think and make choices, even if it's reactive and following set programming (which arguably could apply to everyone). For all intents and purposes, he exists. Therefore he can be destroyed.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Nekron_(New_Earth)

This should shed some light on exactly what Nekron is and isn't. You can destroy Nekron, I'd imagine, but it'd take a lot more than ending the universe. You'd have to end, presumably,existence to truly kill him.

I think. This dude is confusing.

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#41 Posted by devilmoonlight (114 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by Marc_55 (4823 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: @highaccuser: @marc_55:

Saint Seiya Debunk:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/saint-seiya-facts-vs-hypes-680878/

First, I don't care. Second, even assuming I did, my good friend already debunked that blatant lowballing. Finally, I still don't care.

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#43 Edited by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhistr:

This should shed some light on exactly what Nekron is and isn't. You can destroy Nekron, I'd imagine, but it'd take a lot more than ending the universe. You'd have to end, presumably,existence to truly kill him.

I think. This dude is confusing.

Nah, powerful enough conceptual manipulation should do the trick.

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#44 Edited by rhistr (169 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

@rhistr:

This should shed some light on exactly what Nekron is and isn't. You can destroy Nekron, I'd imagine, but it'd take a lot more than ending the universe. You'd have to end, presumably,existence to truly kill him.

I think. This dude is confusing.

Nah, powerful enough conceptual manipulation should do the trick.

Yeah, I guess the concept of darkness and death not existing would do the trick. Though that may mean erasing light and life as well to balance things out . . . or something. Since the darkness "made" Nekron to protect itself from life, whatever that means.

Yeesh. This isn't even a battle anymore. I hate god-like beings versus . . .

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#45 Posted by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhistr said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rhistr:

This should shed some light on exactly what Nekron is and isn't. You can destroy Nekron, I'd imagine, but it'd take a lot more than ending the universe. You'd have to end, presumably,existence to truly kill him.

I think. This dude is confusing.

Nah, powerful enough conceptual manipulation should do the trick.

Yeah, I guess the concept of darkness and death not existing would do the trick. Though that may mean erasing light and life as well to balance things out . . . or something. Since the darkness "made" Nekron to protect itself from life, whatever that means.

Yeesh. This isn't even a battle anymore. I hate god-like beings versus . . .

You don't need to go that far, just erase the personification of it.

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#46 Posted by highaccuser (32017 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: He has a being, he's able to think and make choices, even if it's reactive and following set programming (which arguably could apply to everyone). For all intents and purposes, he exists. Therefore he can be destroyed.

You're applying standards to him as if he were living. He's death. You can cut off his access to the living world but you can't actually destroy him while empty space exists.

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#47 Edited by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: No I am applying standards to him as if he's an actual character that makes actions and does things. Which he is. You don't need to break a computer to wipe the programming.

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#48 Posted by highaccuser (32017 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: No I am applying standards to him as if he's an actual character that makes actions and does things. Which he is. You don't need to break a computer to wipe the programming.

Wiping the programming so to speak would involve reprogramming the universe in this case. If anyone can do that they would be able to beat Nekron.

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#49 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20267 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55: Those Seiya "debunk" threads are always fun to read through. I find myself guessing what scans the TC will take out of context or pull from a sketchy scanlation site, and it's usually the same three:

1. Cosmo, the energy source in the SS verse, is said to be a miniature universe within the Saints' bodies, so all of the feats these characters demonstrate happen in a microscopic universe. The problem with this one is pretty self-explanatory.

2. The Gold Saints' combined effort only creates the power of the sun on a small scale (context: the ability to generate sunlight), so no way are they galaxy-multi galaxy level.

3. Hades isn't multi-universal because if he was, why not just destroy the sun? Context: Hades wanted to plunge the Earth into a perpetual state of darkness to make it suitable for a second Underworld. He didn't want to destroy the Sun, which would require him to go against Apollo, or the Earth by "busting" them.

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#50 Posted by Zetsumoto (20590 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

@highaccuser: No I am applying standards to him as if he's an actual character that makes actions and does things. Which he is. You don't need to break a computer to wipe the programming.

Wiping the programming so to speak would involve reprogramming the universe in this case. If anyone can do that they would be able to beat Nekron.

I suppose in a way, but it's not like they have to delete the concept of dying and nothingness. It's not like those forces need a personified being to walk around in order for them to exist.