1- TP battle only
2- All skills allowed except reality warping
3- All out battle
Franklin's other psi powers don't match up to Nate IMO. They both have the ability to channel unlimited psionic energy but is Franklin's is focused mainly in the reality warping department while Nate's is in the tk/tp departments, so I give rounds one and two to Nate, and the last to Franklin.
Franklin Richards stomps all rounds.
Spite.
What TP feats and non-reality warping feats does he have that make him a match for Nate?
nate round 1 and 2
franklin stomps in round 3
Franklin Richards stomps all rounds.
Spite.
What TP feats and non-reality warping feats does he have that make him a match for Nate?
yes.. i'd like to know that aswell
What TP feats and non-reality warping feats does he have that make him a match for Nate?
yes.. i'd like to know that aswell
Franklin Richards as a kid could scan the minds of Mad Celestials.
.
Mad Celestials are above Infinity Gauntlets which easily gives characters universal telepathy.
.
@ssj_god: @lordofallhumans: Forgot to add these scans. Franklin defeats them in telepathy.
Mad Celestials are above Infinity Gauntlets which easily gives characters universal telepathy.
this is the doubtful part (assumed part)
@ssj_god: There are three Reed Richards in that scan with Infinity Gauntlet & all of them are out matched in the following battle. How is that doubtful or assumed?
@ssj_god: There are three Reed Richards in that scan with Infinity Gauntlet & all of them are out matched in the following battle. How is that doubtful or assumed?
because there is no mention of such things...
just because hulk have defeated thor in a fight before.. does not mean hulk is immune or more powerful than mjolnir's bfr or matter manipulation you know... there are certain things which writers ignores while trying to write a good story...
here.. i'll give you a more direct mention
nate is mentioned as the 'most powerful psionic being in any reality' while in franklin's presence.. granted franklin was a kid.. but nate was pre shaman too.. we can all understand that it's their potential they were talking about, not the actual power output (we know very well nate wasn't anywhere near that level back then)
@ssj_god: Have you ever debated anything other than hyperbole in regards to Nate vs Franklin?
Moving on...
because there is no mention of such things...
Not everything as to be stated. Clearly you see a Reed Richards with an Infinity Gauntlet ask another to read their minds and proceeds to gets telepathically stomped.
just because hulk have defeated thor in a fight before.. does not mean hulk is immune or more powerful than mjolnir's bfr or matter manipulation you know... there are certain things which writers ignores while trying to write a good story...
Who's mentioned immunity I certainly haven't. What I have stated is above or more powerful which is confirmed on panel. There isn't any reason to think Celestials aren't above IGs in telepathy. The same way I would put Odin above Hulk in strength.
That scan easily substantiates their superiority.
here.. i'll give you a more direct mention
nate is mentioned as the 'most powerful psionic being in any reality' while in franklin's presence.. granted franklin was a kid.. but nate was pre shaman too.. we can all understand that it's their potential they were talking about, not the actual power output (we know very well nate wasn't anywhere near that level back then)
Your argument is inconsistent. You find it reasonably acceptable to quote Nate as the "most powerful psionic being in any reality" even as uncontrolled potential. When characters with Phoenix Force exist and Nate doesn't have a feat even close.
But me putting Celestials on a universal level in telepathy is ridiculous.
Nate isn't even on Franklin level in terms of untapped potential. Nate (Pre shaman to be fair) psionic outburst is only planetary level killing him in the process.
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Now compare Franklin as a kid. Franklin has a telepathic feat shown to Reed on a universal level. While Franklin's psionic outburst destroy the solar system.
Franklin defeated Celestials in telepathy. In case you've missed the scans.
Shaman Nate is not even a match for Kid Franklin but some how beats Adult Franklin.
I stated this before I won't involve myself in your debates with Nate, argue him on any level of power you think is reasonable. But if you address them to me I will correct you with context and feats.
Have you ever debated anything other than hyperbole in regards to Nate vs Franklin?
Moving on...
really?... i was talking about a 'mentioned' thing in exchange of your 'assumed' part.. and you think i never debate anything other than hyperbole regarding nate vs franklin... nice assessment bruh.
moving on....
Not everything as to be stated. Clearly you see a Reed Richards with an Infinity Gauntlet ask another to read their minds and proceeds to gets telepathically stomped.
there is no mention of read using any telepathy.. and there's no instance of reed doing any telepathic work with any IG... show us one TP feat of reed with IG then please
Who's mentioned immunity I certainly haven't. What I have stated is above or more powerful which is confirmed on panel. There isn't any reason to think Celestials aren't above IGs in telepathy. The same way I would put Odin above Hulk in strength.
That scan easily substantiates their superiority.
you are thinking of mind gem when talking about IG's TP right?... in that case.. show me ONE notable feat of reed with mind gem or performing TP with IG
NO FEAT = ASSUMPTION
Your argument is inconsistent. You find it reasonably acceptable to quote Nate as the "most powerful psionic being in any reality" even as uncontrolled potential. When characters with Phoenix Force exist and Nate doesn't have a feat even close.
But me putting Celestials on a universal level in telepathy is ridiculous.
Nate isn't even on Franklin level in terms of untapped potential. Nate (Pre shaman to be fair) psionic outburst is only planetary level killing him in the process.
ohh yeah... they are totally hyperbole.. even when they are said more than once
of course this was a hyperbole too.. even though dr. moria measured it with machines
well.. even though prof xavier explicitly mentions how nate performed psionic work which even the dark phoenix (jean) couldn't accomplish
you somehow think an uncontrollable psionic outburst = maximum potential output don't you?...
i wonder.. nate never grew any stronger becoming shaman... he just got stabilized and had more control on the power he always had inside him... according to you, his max potential output is planetary.. yet somehow while shaman, he could easily threaten planet destruction and influence telepathy on multiversal level.. i wonder... really.
think whatever you suit... i won't try to change your thought of course.
Now compare Franklin as a kid. Franklin has a telepathic feat shown to Reed on a universal level. While Franklin's psionic outburst destroy the solar system.
that is what we call reality warping -_- (well reaching reed's mind was telepathy though... but reaching reed's mind isn't much of a TP feat)
Franklin defeated Celestials in telepathy. In case you've missed the scans.
and in case you've missed my question... i raised a doubt on those celestial's TP -_- .. how can you say nate won't overpower them.. he's a stronger telepath than franklin
Shaman Nate is not even a match for Kid Franklin but some how beats Adult Franklin.
in case you've missed my comment on this battle.. here it is
nate round 1 and 2
franklin stomps in round 3
i never said nate would win in a head on fight... but franklin hasn't got anything on nate except his crazy powerful reality warping
I stated this before I won't involve myself in your debates with Nate, argue him on any level of power you think is reasonable. But if you address them to me I will correct you with context and feats.
huh? i don't even remember having anything with you worth enough to mention... you want me to 'correct'? .. like with what?.. you think you're gonna show me something which i've seen many many times before and that'll 'correct' me?... bruh.... i do not work with 'assumptions'.. come back when you have anything worth adding to the debate other than trash talking like 'correcting' me.
round one and round 2 go to nate
round 3 easily goes to franklin. He is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, reality warpers around
really?... i was talking about a 'mentioned' thing in exchange of your 'assumed' part.. and you think i never debate anything other than hyperbole regarding nate vs franklin... nice assessment bruh.
You're continuing on about I'm assuming Celestials are universal telepaths when I showed scans of Franklin being a universal telepath and they've out right shown power to contented with him. But your entire debate is based on statements form characters who can't even comprehend that level of power.
I thing my assessment has validity in compression to your scale of Nate.
Let me quote it in a way you've shown to understand "NO FEAT = ASSUMPTION"
you are thinking of mind gem when talking about IG's TP right?... in that case.. show me ONE notable feat of reed with mind gem or performing TP with IG
NO FEAT = ASSUMPTION
I not going to press this any further as Franklin has universal level telepathy which is the what we are debating Franklin vs Nate.
ohh yeah... they are totally hyperbole.. even when they are said more than once
Statements aren't facts no matter how loud their shouted. If that were so, Hulk would be the strongest one there is, Thor would be the most powerful being on the planet (with reality warping mutants), Sentry would have the power of "million exploding suns" etc.
you somehow think an uncontrollable psionic outburst = maximum potential output don't you?...
That's the best Nate has shown in power out put to date, it's not a question of what I think. Could Shaman Nate survive blasting all of his psionic energy at once sure. I reasonably think Nate did when facing Qabiri (who still out matched him).
i wonder.. nate never grew any stronger becoming shaman... he just got stabilized and had more control on the power he always had inside him... according to you, his max potential output is planetary.. yet somehow while shaman, he could easily threaten planet destruction and influence telepathy on multiversal level.. i wonder... really.
think whatever you suit... i won't try to change your thought of course.
Nate is still planetary there no question about it Nate can't destroy planets on a whim. We haven't even seen him destroy a planet going all out. At the very most Nate has threaten the planet with his power as he was created to do but that's all.
Nate doesn't have multiversal telepathy, clearly stated to be multi-planetary having scanned multiple earths for one mind. If Nate had scanned multiple universe he would be multiversal.
This isn't debatable if you read his statements.
You shredded your self among the earths, and invented false memories to ensure you'd forget yourself"
Where do you think he telepathically searched for her alternate selves? Well keep reading he'll tell you.
"But I can physically reconnect you across worlds."
Nate didn't so much as scan the solar system for her alternate selves he searched earths. Nate's powerset allows him to teleport to alternate earths so there's no reason he can't reach them telepathically.
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that is what we call reality warping -_- (well reaching reed's mind was telepathy though... but reaching reed's mind isn't much of a TP feat)
"It's as though the power of his mind was reaching across the void -- into my brain!" Reed was clearly being shown galaxies when linked with Franklin's mind. Then later stated "He'll let loose a blast of psychic force -- --a blast strong enough to kill every living thing in the solar system!" No mention of reality warping.
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Nate has done the same thing on a smaller scale. Which easily shows the difference in power between Franklin and Nate.
There isn't any conflicting evidence, statements or power/authority to dispute what's being shown on panel.
and in case you've missed my question... i raised a doubt on those celestial's TP -_- .. how can you say nate won't overpower them.. he's a stronger telepath than franklin
Nate's not even universal in telepathy.
"in case you've missed my comment on this battle.. here it is"
Spite.
i never said nate would win in a head on fight... but franklin hasn't got anything on nate except his crazy powerful reality warping
Yet Nate lacks feats in all categories to make him Franklin's equal let alone Franklin's superior.
huh? i don't even remember having anything with you worth enough to mention... you want me to 'correct'? .. like with what?.. you think you're gonna show me something which i've seen many many times before and that'll 'correct' me?... bruh.... i do not work with 'assumptions'.. come back when you have anything worth adding to the debate other than trash talking like 'correcting' me.
The fact that you still claim Nate destroyed the moon when it was clearly a simulation means you have yet to correct previous statements. Now making claims that Nate is multiversal laughable in any regard. Qabiri shown to be more powerful than Nate and at no point could Nate over power him with telepathy.
Franklin stomps.
@ssj_god: I know I'm late to the party and I'm not sure why you're referencing the Infinity Guantlet or Celestials, but I would like to point out that Thanos with the IG was able to easily battle and defeat Celestials. I'm not sure he used TP though. Anyways, the power of the IG depends on the user. Some users are more powerful than others, Thanos being top dog.
Acting like the Celestials are more powerful than the IG is silly, we have seen them defeated depending on the user. The IG is barely being used correctly by Reed at all IMO. As to telepathy, I think the Mind Gem would give Thanos the win over Celestials, and therefore over Franklin, which is neither here nor there really lol.
R1- Stalemate (Franklin is too powerful to be affected by TP, but he doesn't have the offensive TP skills to take on Nate)
R2- Franklin
R3- Franklin
Round 1: Nate
Round 2: Nate
Round 3: stalenate (lol)
If we have all read and kept up with these two then we know based on CONTEXT and listed feats, both are on par with one another. HOWEVER, Nate posses a natural bent for figuring strategies out to take down opponents (this might be genetic tampering by Sinister to make him the perfect Apocalypse killing machine). If you look at everything they have done Nate has done everything Franklin has and more (bar create a pocket dimension- which we can all reason that Nate can do given he can stop time and exist beyond time). Also Nate has to be able to reality warp since he survived the complete erase of his time line (erasing space and time means these things did not happen, so he did not happen- but he survived somehow). Nate Grey is on par with Franklin Richards. And for those who are going to throw the argument out there that Franklin Richards made Galactus his bitch, he did so by combining himself with 2 other version fo himself- in other words, he was at 3x his natural upper power limit. Imagine 3 Nate Greys in 1.
1. Nate Grey
2. Franklin Richards
3. Franklin Richards
@natefrost: Exactly.
Franklin all rounds. Plus Franklin is confirmed to be the most powerful mutant ever born on panel.
And Nate was stated to be the most powerful psionic of any reality. so we move onto feats and context.
@nightmarediablo712 thank you!! :)
@natefrost: explain to me how stopping time or existing outside time means one can suddenly create a universe lol
Nate is better at using his powers in a fight than Franklin. Franklin is powerful, we get it but without prep and/or time travel he's not that good. Straight up random encounter Nate should F him up.
He can step outside the spiral of time and witness all timelines. Given that he also has the ability to manipulate all matter and energy he can duplicate another dimension or universe. YES, this is all conjecture but as I said context. Even when dead his constructs retained their hold. So he is clearly a very powerful reality manipulator.
1. Nate Grey
2. Franklin Richards
3. Franklin Richards
Except Franklin was stated to be that by Galactus aka a cosmic entity towards the end of time meaning 2 things.
1. It was a credible source
2. It was towards the of end of time meaning no mutant ever surpassed him in the natural sense
Destroying the mad Celestials is still above anything Nate has done.
Nate's only resurrected ppl via astral energy, and even then it was temporary, A child Franklin is responsible for resurrecting everyone that was killed during the Onslaught conflict.
Warding off a telepathic assault as a child by the mad celestial is pretty impressive considering it caused the an alternate Reed with the IG's mind to explode. Adult Franklin potentially created megaverses as suggest in Waide's "History of The Marvel Universe" Franklin is above his pay grade, and this is coming from a huge Nate Grey fan. Like I said, the most powerful mutant that will ever exist.
His constructs faded from what I remember, they didn't remain in tact when he brought Gwen back it was a temporary construct, when he repaired that girls arm it was tempoary construct that faded, from what I recall the failures of those constructs caused him mind wipe NY then leave cause the city was in chaos unless I'm remembering incorrectly, it's been quite some time since I read that arc.
1. Nate Grey
2. Franklin Richards
3. Franklin Richards
1. Nate Grey
2. Franklin Richards
3. Franklin Richards
@green_skaar: whenever a writer in any mutant related book states that *insert random mutant* is the most powerful telepath no one takes it seriously because not they only lack feats, they get inconvenienced by average telepaths. Heck 50% of the phoenix was shut down by xavier. Who's like peak human. Any decent cosmic telepath would rival or outright beat xavier. Nate is stated to be at phoenix level yet he struggled with osborn.
Except Franklin was stated to be that by Galactus aka a cosmic entity towards the end of time meaning 2 things.
1. It was a credible source
2. It was towards the of end of time meaning no mutant ever surpassed him in the natural sense
Destroying the mad Celestials is still above anything Nate has done.
Nate's only resurrected ppl via astral energy, and even then it was temporary, A child Franklin is responsible for resurrecting everyone that was killed during the Onslaught conflict.
Warding off a telepathic assault as a child by the mad celestial is pretty impressive considering it caused the an alternate Reed with the IG's mind to explode. Adult Franklin potentially created megaverses as suggest in Waide's "History of The Marvel Universe" Franklin is above his pay grade, and this is coming from a huge Nate Grey fan. Like I said, the most powerful mutant that will ever exist.
1) Okay but what is more credible, a fictional character's opinion or a writer who has ultimate say and retcon power?
2) There are assumptions that can naturally be made from saying things like "[e]xcept Franklin was stated to be that by Galactus aka a cosmic entity towards the end of time meaning 2 things," because many mutants are immortal in specific ways. For example some can live in the astral plane (Nate Grey, Shadow King, Xavier). So by logic they can survive dimensional collapse. Also given that Nate Grey survived the complete erasure of his timeline means he will most likely survive the end of any reality. But this is all conjecture- because it has not been SPECIFICALLY stated.
You are absolutely correct. Nate has not destroyed a Mad Celestial. But has he not done something even better? Being able to STOP time seems pretty OP. And between killing a celestial (which is not an exclusive feat to Franklin) and STOPPING all of time. I think stopping time is God tier. Just from a purely strategic standpoint.
As for resurrecting people... that's also tricky because if I recall correctly- Franklin didn't resurrect everyone he more so copied and pasted them into a duplicate universe (this was stated in the comic). Not that that isn't impressive but it is not the same as resurrection. Not to mention what exactly is implied by resurrection? Is bringing back someone from the dead a more impressive feat than preserving someone's psionic signature (soul per se) and duplicating their body? Both still have the same end: the person is in fact NOT dead. But idk, semantics I guess. This is something writers would have to hash out or directly address.
I do not know where you guys are getting that Reed Richard's mind/brain exploded. I just searched for every Franklin Richards vs Celestial battle and there is no mention of Reed having his brain blown out by Franklin's psionic attack on the celestials.
A lot of this is back and forth. And well unless it has been specifically stated the truth is never certain AND EVEN when stated it can be argued by feats, context, and logic.
When someone can control minds to an undetermined level, it stands to reason they can virtually defeat any opponent.
His constructs faded from what I remember, they didn't remain in tact when he brought Gwen back it was a temporary construct, when he repaired that girls arm it was tempoary construct that faded, from what I recall the failures of those constructs caused him mind wipe NY then leave cause the city was in chaos unless I'm remembering incorrectly, it's been quite some time since I read that arc.
They did. But I remember reading that the abilities or powers or things he had done stayed intact even after he was depowered or dead. Its been so long since I read up on him myself.
"Okay but what is more credible, a fictional character's opinion or a writer who has ultimate say and retcon power?"
You're using a statement that was written over 20 years ago, writers contradict themvelves all the time. @ one point Galactus was considered the top of the cosmic food chain in the 60s, that's changed Even Stan Lee called him the most powerful character ( I need to find the quote) Cosmic Cubes were considered to be infinitely above Celestials yet you have people like molecule man and the beyonder that exceed them greatly. Point being writers contradicts themselves all the time. Things change over time.
"2) There are assumptions that can naturally be made from saying things like "[e]xcept Franklin was stated to be that by Galactus aka a cosmic entity towards the end of time meaning 2 things," because many mutants are immortal in specific ways. For example some can live in the astral plane (Nate Grey, Shadow King, Xavier). So by logic they can survive dimensional collapse. Also given that Nate Grey survived the complete erasure of his timeline means he will most likely survive the end of any reality. But this is all conjecture- because it has not been SPECIFICALLY stated."
Not really, it was confirmed that Galactus, and Franklin were the last living beings in their universe. And this was recent and billion years in the future, there was no Nate Grey mentioned. Being able to live in the astral plane does not mean being able to live forever, they can still be destroyed in more esoteric ways. There's no need to speculate on his immortality because we know he doesn't make it to the end of the universe.
"You are absolutely correct. Nate has not destroyed a Mad Celestial. But has he not done something even better? Being able to STOP time seems pretty OP. And between killing a celestial (which is not an exclusive feat to Franklin) and STOPPING all of time. I think stopping time is God tier. Just from a purely strategic standpoint."
Not sure what stopping time is going to do, Franklin already has temporal powers himself. Tempest can stop time, so can Legion, it's not really an exclusive power. And yes Killing a celestial was exclusive to Franklin, he one shotted one after he revived Galactus.
"I do not know where you guys are getting that Reed Richard's mind/brain exploded. I just searched for every Franklin Richards vs Celestial battle and there is no mention of Reed having his brain blown out by Franklin's psionic attack on the celestials."
No one said Reed's brain was blown out, his head exploded after trying to engage the mad celestials telepathically
"When someone can control minds to an undetermined level, it stands to reason they can virtually defeat any opponent."
Where was this control when he got tooken down my Normal Osborne?
"They did. But I remember reading that the abilities or powers or things he had done stayed intact even after he was depowered or dead. Its been so long since I read up on him myself."
I don't think they stayed in tact
anyway
This dialogue
Galactus: Yours is a complex history unto its own. Franklin Richards. the most powerful mutant every born
Franklin: Did build, not at first that much i recall, but eventually worlds, then as I grew older multiverses, a few centuries after that, I really let my imagination run wild didn't I?
That's above Nate's pay grade.
Also adult Franklin can turn other people's powers off.
He has turned off his grandfather's ability to travel turn time just cause he could, and created a a box around black bolt and himself so his voice wouldn't kill the others around him yet Franklin was unharmed cause he said " I would never allow your powers to harm me"
He's multiple tiers above Nate, and that's a fact.
@natefrost: lmao do you have any idea how many low cosmic characters have stopped time? From heralds to even lesser mutants? Plus this power only works on lower level characters. Since someone like ares is immune to it.
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