@rdcdesmond: I see where your coming from but the ghost kage and ichigo r not really the samething and it was circumstantial along with Naruto seeing his soul
@rdcdesmond: I see where your coming from but the ghost kage and ichigo r not really the samething and it was circumstantial along with Naruto seeing his soul
if by not the same thing u mean the souls in bleach being tangible, than Naruto saw and held is soul
@cyberblades22: I made this thread so pls explain how. I think ichigo stomps because naruto cant see nor sence him and even if he could i doubt naruto could beat him
@whyimright45: Chakra is made up of two primary components: physical energy and spiritual energy,
to see Shinigami one just needs spiritual energy which Naruto has due to possessing chakra.
Naruto characters with just regular chakra are capable of seeing souls on numerous occasions and in different forms.
Choza and a random leaf shinobi is able to see Dans soul as he uses the ghost transformation jutsu.
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Naruto and others can see the souls of edo tensei as they leave their body, as well as see the souls of the past gokage that Hagoromo(in spirit form) summoned himself. Any shinobi can see souls leaving edo tensei as well.
Naruto can see his soul being ripped out by Nagato.
Orochimaru who's sensory abilities and powers are below Naruto's was able to see his soul as well a literal shinigami.
There's many more feats of Naruto characters being able to see souls but these are just a couple of them.
Even if you want to argue for some reason that Ichigo is still invisible to Naruto (despite normal people with a little spiritual energy like Tatsuki being able to see him) Naruto has sensory abilities that would easily spot Ichigo.
Naruto can sense limbo shadows that exist in another dimension that can't be sensed by someone without six path senjutsu like Naruto.
Naruto can sense Sasuke despite him being in a separate dimension. Sasuke with inferior sensing can also do this.
Naruto can also sense negative emotions and or killing intent even if a person is hidden from his view.
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Naruto can also see attacks with his sage mode sensing without having to see them physically, and can clearly sense people around him even if they are countries away from him.
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Naruto in his six path senjutsu mode/ six paths sage mode has access to all these abilities but heightened exponentially, so yes he would be able to clearly sense and see Ichigo without much trouble.
As for abilities I suggest reading this respect thread since this post is already pretty big, but if you'd like I can tell you about Naruto's stats and abilities but this respect thread should cover most of the major stuff.
@cyberblades22: ok but naruto seeing hagaromo or anyone spiritually is circumstantial and yeah naruto uses spirtual energy for chakra but thats for chakra not seeing ghosts thats just a dumb claim but I set my terms and conditions already because thats what would actually happen. Plus ichigo is just way more powerful. Plus those souls were released by Edo tensat thats why people could see them. But I'm reality it dorsnt matter naruto will be fighting an invinsable entity and ichigo will just finish him off. I dont see naruto winning this at all
@whyimright45: Not really circumstantial it's happened in various different occasions as shown in my post above, even people with weaker abilities can see souls. That's not what would happen at all since the feats above already debunk that claim, you have to prove why it's not possible to see Ichigo and again everything Naruto has done says otherwise, unless you're saying sensing or seeing Ichigo is harder than sensing beings in a completely different dimension which Naruto has done multiple times (the Limbo shadows can't be sensed without six paths senjutsu). Doesn't really matter if they were since they are still souls and Naruto saw his own soul, can see the shinigami, and lesser Naruto characters have seen souls in various different conditions like Orochiamru for instance. How is Ichigo stronger? Naruto with just 50%BSM (far weaker than six paths form) punched through a moon splitter then KOed Toneri who was planning to survive the moon crashing into and destroying Earth, and was fighting characters that had planet+ sized chakra reserves, range and even planet level attacks (Kaguya) this would put him above Ichigo easily. Pretty pointless battle if you already have a winner in mind and set specific conditions to guarantee another characters victory by restricting his opponent, I recommend you read up https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/battle-forum-rules-30-all-users-read-1767034/ specifically the "How to Make a Battle" portion since this thread clearly goes against this. There's absolutley no point of a battle thread if you're going to place conditions like "Naruto can't see nor sence ichigo. Soul crush is aloud if possible." and then have a winner in mind, that's the same as me saying "Ichigo vs 5 Madra limbo shadows, but Ichigo can't see, touch or sense limbo shadows while the shadows can hurt him" and then out right admitting the limbos would stomp in another post, that's pretty much what you're doing in this thread.
@whyimright45: Chakra is made up of two primary components: physical energy and spiritual energy,
to see Shinigami one just needs spiritual energy which Naruto has due to possessing chakra.
Naruto characters with just regular chakra are capable of seeing souls on numerous occasions and in different forms.
Choza and a random leaf shinobi is able to see Dans soul as he uses the ghost transformation jutsu.
Gallery
Naruto and others can see the souls of edo tensei as they leave their body, as well as see the souls of the past gokage that Hagoromo(in spirit form) summoned himself. Any shinobi can see souls leaving edo tensei as well.
Naruto can see his soul being ripped out by Nagato.
Orochimaru who's sensory abilities and powers are below Naruto's was able to see his soul as well a literal shinigami.
There's many more feats of Naruto characters being able to see souls but these are just a couple of them.
Even if you want to argue for some reason that Ichigo is still invisible to Naruto (despite normal people with a little spiritual energy like Tatsuki being able to see him) Naruto has sensory abilities that would easily spot Ichigo.
Naruto can sense limbo shadows that exist in another dimension that can't be sensed by someone without six path senjutsu like Naruto.
Naruto can sense Sasuke despite him being in a separate dimension. Sasuke with inferior sensing can also do this.
Naruto can also sense negative emotions and or killing intent even if a person is hidden from his view.
Gallery
Naruto can also see attacks with his sage mode sensing without having to see them physically, and can clearly sense people around him even if they are countries away from him.
Gallery
Naruto in his six path senjutsu mode/ six paths sage mode has access to all these abilities but heightened exponentially, so yes he would be able to clearly sense and see Ichigo without much trouble.
As for abilities I suggest reading this respect thread since this post is already pretty big, but if you'd like I can tell you about Naruto's stats and abilities but this respect thread should cover most of the major stuff.
This is Nice, but this can be looked at 2 ways, while this might prove that Naruto characters can see ghosts. I could also use these exact same arguments to prove that ghosts in Naruto aren't actually invisible as one would expect. That would be because Shinobi's soul appear or take form of Chakra and anyone can see Chakra. This is actually very obvious visually especially if you watch the anime.
Obito says that Chakra is capable of connecting both worlds and they could exist as Chakra on the other plain and when he appears to kakashi he takes the form of Chakra.
And this even more obvious with The sage of the six path soul ,as he also stated he was in the form of Chakra and appears in the form of Chakra when indra/Ashura Chakra finally became one.
Then the Databook also referred to souls as Chakra when describing Nagato's Gedo mazou berserk soul rip,.it says Nagato's soul dragon was pulling out their Chakra. I can't find the scans to that however.
EDIT: found the datebook scan
Although I could be wrong, do you have any instances of souls actually being invisible in Naruto??
Naruto can sense emotion and danger so he doesn't need sight. Soul crush works on fodder not on people with similar level of energy. Bleach wankers can keep on wanking but soul crush has never done anything useful and has never been used in a equal fight. On the other hand Naruto is his Superior and somehow this miraculous wank called soul crush will start work somehow
@saxz: The reaper death seal shinigami is stated to be invisible in the databook to everyone but the user yet Orochimaru saw it, and when using the reaper mask Sasuke also appeared to be able to see the Shinigami.
Naruto with his six paths power should be able to easily see or sense the reaper with all his amps, since he can sense beings in other dimensions and has been able to see his soul and others souls, plus he'd be above Orochimaru and EMS Sasuke by a large margin.
We can't really say the soul isn't invisible just because all shinobi who possess chakra can see it. Unlike bleach everyone in Naruto has chakra and thus has the ability to see souls, while in Bleach only a few handful of humans have spiritual energy to see shinigami while it's mostly the shinigami, hollows, and Quincy that all have spiritual energy to easily do this.
There was a few instances the soul couldn't be seen and was invisible like when Dan's soul saved Tsunade (via ghost jutsu) and none of the 5 kage saw it, though Madara seemed to notice by his expression and even made note of Tsunade having her chakra restored.
The 2 scans you posted wasn't accomplished through normal chakra but rather six paths chakra which allow people to manifest themselves in the living world even after death, Obito and Hagoromo both possessed six paths chakra and were able to do this. Obito states that their chakra (his and Kakashi's) is able to connect to both world, that doesn't mean all chakra can do this only six paths chakra is shown to be able to do this. Souls that possess six paths power can still retain their chakra (as shown with Hagormo), but edo tensei weren't six paths amped, and neither was Dan but their souls were still visible to Naruto.
The scan could just mean it took their chakra and their soul, it just says anyone who touches it has their chakra stuck to it. The soul ripping dragon technique is similar to the human paths (but more powerful) and the manga and databook both call what's pulled out of the people as souls
Edit: There's also the fact Naruto can sense limbo invisible shadows that exist in another dimension and can sense people in other dimensions.
@saxz: generally the way it works in naruto is that spirits are invisible until they make contact with you. the reaper is visible to the user since its connected to you soul and only becomes visible to the victim once it touches them. same thing for the king of hell which is normally invisible.
Although itachi could see and interact with it without touching it.
Rin's ghost was visible to obito and kakashi once she grab their hands.
@cyberblades22: generally the way it works in naruto is that spirits are invisible until they make contact with you. the reaper is visible to the user since its connected to you soul and only becomes visible to the victim once it touches them. same thing for the king of hell which is normally invisible.
Although itachi could see and interact with it without touching it.
Rin's ghost was visible to obito and kakashi once she grab their hands. So basically naruto will see ichigo if ichigo touches him and ichigo will use his swords not his hands and naruto cant sence him. I domt care if naruto can sence him or not these are my terms and conditions
@saxz: The reaper death seal shinigami is stated to be invisible in the databook to everyone but the user yet Orochimaru saw it, and when using the reaper mask Sasuke also appeared to be able to see the Shinigami.
I thinkThat's because only those connected to the reaper seal can see it,orochimaru was connected at the time he saw it prior to that moment he couldn't see it
Naruto with his six paths power should be able to easily see or sense the reaper with all his amps, since he can sense beings in other dimensions and has been able to see his soul and others souls, plus he'd be above Orochimaru and EMS Sasuke by a large margin.
The Orochimaru example is null and I am going to have to confirm the Sasuke scenario, because as you just said, the Databooks says no-one should be able to see.
We can't really say the soul isn't invisible just because all shinobi who possess chakra can see it. Unlike bleach everyone in Naruto has chakra and thus has the ability to see souls, while in Bleach only a few handful of humans have spiritual energy to see shinigami while it's mostly the shinigami, hollows, and Quincy that all have spiritual energy to easily do this.
You're mixing the laws of both verse, unlike bleach Chakra was never stated as a prerequisite to see ghosts. So basically Chakra has nothing to do with seeing souls
There was a few instances the soul couldn't be seen and was invisible like when Dan's soul saved Tsunade (via ghost jutsu) and none of the 5 kage saw it, though Madara seemed to notice by his expression and even made note of Tsunade having her chakra restored.
As You just said a while ago Dan was clearly Visible so why would he suddenly be invisible now???? The only conclusion that could be drawn from that is he moved so fast that the Kages didn't notice. And Dan was also able to restore Tsunade's Chakra which further solidifies my point that souls take the form of Chakra .
The 2 scans you posted wasn't accomplished through normal chakra but rather six paths chakra which allow people to manifest themselves in the living world even after death,Obito and Hagoromo both possessed six paths chakra and were able to do this.
I don't think there was ever a scan that made this exclusive to six path Chakra .obito and Hagoromo just had ways to cross the dimensions, obito through Kamui and Hagoromo through summoning.
Obito states that their chakra (his and Kakashi's) is able to connect to both world, that doesn't mean all chakra can do this only six paths chakra is shown to be able to do this.
Again that's a distinction you came up with.
Souls that possess six paths power can still retain their chakra (as shown with Hagormo), but edo tensei weren't six paths amped, and neither was Dan but their souls were still visible to Naruto.
I don't see the correlation. Six path amp has nothing to do with retaining Chakra, literally all the Edo tensei retained their Chakra.
The scan could just mean it took their chakra and their soul, it just says anyone who touches it has their chakra stuck to it. The soul ripping dragon technique is similar to the human paths (but more powerful) and the manga and databook both call what's pulled out of the people as souls
And yet the Databook also called it Chakra, Which is why I said Chakra is a bit synonymous with soul in the Narutoverse, which is why people are able to see it(souls) because souls take the form of Chakra.
Edit: There's also the fact Naruto can sense limbo invisible shadows that exist in another dimension and can sense people in other dimensions.
Yeah I know,Naruto should be able to sense Ichigo. But the OP nerfed Naruto and said he can't,his thread, his rules. I am just arguing about their abilities to see souls in general
@saxz: generally the way it works in naruto is that spirits are invisible until they make contact with you. the reaper is visible to the user since its connected to you soul and only becomes visible to the victim once it touches them. same thing for the king of hell which is normally invisible.
Although itachi could see and interact with it without touching it.
Rin's ghost was visible to obito and kakashi once she grab their hands.
Don't you think the Rin scenario was heavily symbolic, Kishi does that all the time,like all Naruto's dead mentors helping Boruto charge the Rasengan.
Also plenty of ghost where visible without touching anybody, however those spirits like the shinigami death seal seemed different from your traditional shinobi's soul, they where clearly invisible and closer to what a spirit should be but then again no one was able to see them either.
I think Itachi was able to see the king of hell because he has the sharingan IIRC during the Kakashi gaiden, obito was able to see the invisible ninja with his sharingan.
@saxz: generally the way it works in naruto is that spirits are invisible until they make contact with you. the reaper is visible to the user since its connected to you soul and only becomes visible to the victim once it touches them. same thing for the king of hell which is normally invisible.
Although itachi could see and interact with it without touching it.
Rin's ghost was visible to obito and kakashi once she grab their hands.
Don't you think the Rin scenario was heavily symbolic, Kishi does that all the time,like all Naruto's dead mentors helping Boruto charge the Rasengan.
Also plenty of ghost where visible without touching anybody, however those spirits like the shinigami death seal seemed different from your traditional shinobi's soul, they where clearly invisible and closer to what a spirit should be but then again no one was able to see them either.
I think Itachi was able to see the king of hell because he has the sharingan IIRC during the Kakashi gaiden, obito was able to see the invisible ninja with his sharingan.
The rasengan thing was just naruto remembering people. With rin, obito and kakashi actually saw her and reacted.
for sure, the touching thing is just the most consistentand the closest thing we’ve gotten to a rule.
yeah Imo all doujutsu users can see spirits since spirits have/are chakra.
Naruto still stomps and will keep on stomping Ichigo and he'll still stomp Ichigo and laugh so hard. Where in the world are people getting Large Plancet Ichigo? LOL
Just gonna list all canon instances I can remember where people see/interact with spirits so that we could maybe find some patterns or rules.
The shinigami obviously
We got tayuya’s stamina eating spirits( iirc I think her giants were also referred to as spirits/demons”
Bijuu are also described as spirits from time to time(note:”spirit” doesn’t always mean “soul”) and the reaper death seal also affects them the way it does human souls.
Gedo mazo’s phantom dragons used to seal bijuu and steal souls/chakra.
The human path grabbing souls outright which Nagato seems to be able to see.
Kakashi meeting his pops in purgatory.
Minato manifesting through his chakra within naruto’s seal.
Kushina doing the same thing later on.
The Naraka path summons a spirit called the king of hell that is normally invisible and can convert a victims souls/lifeforce into a long tongue that it can eat.
Dan and his spiritualization jutsu
the shinigami a second time
Everyone seemed to be able to see edo zombies souls leave their bodies. Sasuke definitely could see itachi’s soul.
Hagoromo’s soul appearing to naruto and sasuke
Hagoromo manifesting from madara’s severed legs.
Hagoromo dragging the souls of dead kage from the pure land back to earth
Obito and kakashi seeing rin
Everyone seeing the edo kage’s souls
Hinata chilling with the souls of Hamura and other dead otsutsuki
The souls of the otsutsuki manifesting through some eyes to talk to toner I
Konohamaru fought a spirit that was after some girl named lemon
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